What type of hybrid should I buy?

mirth

...there are some nifty gadget/tech benefits that make people say "Neat!", but ask them to pay $2K more for those and I bet they'll say "Nope!".

john1701a

> ask them to pay $2K more for those and I bet they'll say "Nope!".

Step back and smell the money for a second, to put things in perspective.

Some people now think nothing of spending $2K to buy a television.

Thinking those buyers will frown on adding that amount to a car loan isn't realistic. So you need to ask yourself how many people fit into that category, of which the number continues to grow.

JOHN

nippononly

you get a really nifty television.

The problem with charging an extra $2K on your midsize sedan is that there are so many other "nifty" choices right around the same price, which means that $2K premium will make yours the most expensive of its peers.

It is certainly true that luxury cars will sell as hybrids much more easily, because people throwing around $40-50K on a car will throw around an extra $2K like it is nothing, and here on the west coast that will be especially true if the extra $2K gives them "green" credentials.

The HL coming in fall will be right in-between. A more expensive car, but still one that competes in the most competitive part of the market, and does not sell exclusively to "rich people". Will people pay $2K more? And bear in mind that in true Toyota fashion, the hybrid will not be available in anything but premium trim, the most expensive Limited version of the regular car, which is already more expensive and the lowest-volume trim line of this model.

I don't know the specifics of Honda's plans, but I hope they offer the IMA and cylinder shutdown on ordinary LX models, and not just the high-end Accords.

midnightcowboy

Several times it has been stated that the Prius almost never uses its battery because the MG1 is actually generating, on-the-fly , the electricity that MG2 is using. This is just not true; if it were there would be perpetual motion. Besides the conversion losses, this would mean the ICE was providing all the power!

Power for thwe MG2 primarily comes from the Prius battery. Very little, if any comes directly from MG1.

And while the Otto cycle ICE engine is efficient it has terrible low-end torque. The HSD system provides a synergistic effect by compensating for the lack of low-end torque by providing it through MG2.

Still running MG1 to top off the Prius Battery while crusing at highway speed is just plain inefficient. The Prius ECM should be reprogrammed to shut off MG1 during highway cruise and use only the ICE. Obviously, there would be exceptions, for example if the Prius battery became significnatly discharged. However, this is one of the disadvantages of the Planetary CVT setup. The MG1 and MG2 are always spinning ( sometimes in reverse direction). However there is a difference in having a load on MG! and MG2 and having an opne circuit. The open circuit would provide more efficient highway mpg.

These beta HSD issues in the Prius are supposedly being fixed in the 2005 Prius and the new Toyota/Lexus hybrids.

That is one of the main reasons Honda's VCM (Variable Cylinder Management) combined with IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) seems to be a much better solution for better highway cruising mileage.

Does anyone know where 5-speed Insights are available nad how much they are currently priced?

daysailer

what is a disadvantage to ME??! And there is no ONE optimum condition in a complex, dynamic environment. Vehicles and their operation entail a COMPROMISE of many parameters that change rapidly in real-time. If the manufacturer chooses to give priority to a narrow subset of parameters to optimize and to attempt to anticipate operating conditions, he does so at the expense of the driver's ability to choose priorities as conditions change. There are times when driving that fuel economy may be a high priority for me, yet in an instant, it may become irrelevant as conditions demand immediate response and maximum power.

Automation allows the manufacturer to better control the operating envelope and HIS priorities whether driven by regulation, politics, sales objectives or whatever. The automatic transmission (call it what you will, John) that is fundamental to HSD is at once it's cleverest feature and biggest disadvantage to me. It is an improvement in efficiency over conventional automatics and CVTs but it also means that the losses of generator and electric drive are always in play. Yes, there are other considerations, but these quicky dissappear when immediate response and maximum power are required. And an all-electric mode is a negative aspect, in my view, since it introduces the delay of starting the ICE from rest in all-electric mode (I'm still curious how lubrication is handled).

I prefer a vehicle that maximizes my ability to set my own priorities, not one in which they are pre-ordained.

backy

I prefer a vehicle that maximizes my ability to set my own priorities

What, in your opinion, are some vehicles that are really good at maximizing your ability to set your own priorities?

john1701a

> Several times it has been stated that the Prius almost never
> uses its battery because the MG1 is actually generating,
> on-the-fly , the electricity that MG2 is using. This is
> just not true; if it were there would be perpetual motion.

Those nonsense claims about it being perpetual motion aren't fooling anyone.

Plain and simple, the engine converts some of its thrust to electricity. There is a conversion loss. But since the loss is less than the using the engine exclusively for propulsion, there is a minor saving... hence increased MPG.

The hybrid system simply seeks out those "use less gas" opportunities. It's not rocket science. So quit trying to confuse people.

By running the engine at a more constant RPM, it is more efficient. The excess thrust has to go somewhere. So it is used to create electricity. Some is consumed immediately, some is stored for use later.

JOHN

john1701a

> Power for the MG2 primarily comes from the Prius battery.
> Very little, if any comes directly from MG1.

That is FALSE!

I climb out of the Minnesota River Valley every single time I leave work. And each climb I see the electricity flow coming almost exclusively from engine, not the battery-pack. In fact the only time it ever does come from the battery-pack during the climb, it is also coming from the engine.

Are you claiming that the Multi-Display is wrong?

JOHN

midnightcowboy

gives you an approximation and is not always completely accurate.

When you climb out of the Minnesota River Valley you are using both the ICE and the MG2 powered by the Prius battery. I suppose because they way the planetary CVT gears are set up the MG1 could also be trickle charging the Prius battery.

If the display does not show any power coming from the Prius battery to MG2 under a climb , then Yes I would say the multi-display is wrong!

john1701a

> If the display does not show any power coming from the
> Prius battery to MG2 under a climb , then Yes I would say
> the multi-display is wrong!

No power is shown to come from the battery-pack, nor should it. Based on the design, all is functioning as intended.

That puts the ball in your court now. Prove the behavior is wrong or stop making that claim.

JOHN

midnightcowboy

The MG2 is the primary electric power of the Prius and is much larger than the MG1.

If the MG2 is not power by the Prius battery, then what is it powered by ?

Let's logically think this through.

Power can come from the ICE spinning the MG1 as a generator (G) or it can come from the Prius battery.

Since you are saying the power deosn't come from the Prius battery then it must come from the ICE spinning the MG1.

So this means a 17kw MG1 in genrator mode FULLY powers a 33kw MG2 running in electric motor mode.

That is really amazing 17kW can convert to 33 kw. Where does the extra 16 kw come from, if this were really true it sounds like another perpetual motion trick!
=====================

Okay I proved that this can't happen. Most of the power from the MG2 comes from the battery. Some can come from MG1!

daysailer

ANY car is better equipped to respond to my needs than is a Prius in EV mode since it need not start its prime mover from rest.

Even the manual transmission Honda Hybrids allow the driver more freedom to change priorities or to acquiesce to the controller's guidance, as he chooses. The shift indicator Provides the ABILITY to follow the manufacturer's operating model without REQUIRING him to do so. The best of both AVAILABLE at the DRIVER's pleasure. The Hondas also allow both the ICE and electric drive to operate in combination without additional conversion losses. Since the Prius is always generating, the full output of the ICE is never available for propulsion.

john1701a

> Power can come from the ICE spinning the MG1 as a generator (G)
> or it can come from the Prius battery.

Change OR to AND.

 
> Since you are saying the power deosn't come from the Prius
> battery then it must come from the ICE spinning the MG1.

That was my point.

 
> So this means a 17kw MG1 in genrator mode FULLY powers a 33kw MG2 running in electric motor mode

Change 17kW to 10kW for MG1.

Change 33kW to 50kW for MG2.

Eliminate "electric motor mode", since that is impossible driving forward with the engine running.

 
> Okay I proved that this can't happen.

Correct, you've proven that impossible scenario can't happen.

 
Your confusion comes from a belief that the engine is providing no thrust to the wheels at all and the electric motor is used to its fullest. This explains the point you stressed about the conversion. Yes, that much would result in a huge loss.

In reality, when climbing up a hill, the engine (running at a RPM for optimal efficiency) provides 100% of the power, diverting 72% to the tires and 28% to the generator motor. Most of that generated electricity is consumed immediately by the thrust motor.

JOHN

backy

I'm not sure how much guidance you get from "the controller" on a manual-shift Civic, but if you appreciate the extra control of a stick shift, more power to you. The way hybrids are headed, however, there are few if any stick-shift hybrids (except the Civic) in your near-term future--unless the Accord hybrid is offered with one. Now that would be something--a V6 Accord 6-speed with the added boost of an electric motor. But I don't think Honda offers a stick V6 Accord now except on the coupe.

daysailer

of market direction, but it is not something to celebrate, in my view. In fact, it is the emerging proliferation of Toyota's system in lieu of alternatives like Honda's which better suit my purposes that suggests a hybrid will not soon grace my garage, even if it were economical.

But all is not lost, someone noted in another thread that >50% of a vehicle's lifetime energy consumption occurs in manufacture. If I accept that as fact (I've not verified it), continuing to drive my 12 year old Miata is FAR "greener" than to purchase ANY hybrid. I wonder if there may be a similar relationship in a vehicle's lifetime pollution? And the vehicle performance and economics certainly favor my present car.

How come those who advocate hybrids for environmental reasons are not, in stead, encouraging the purchase of used cars?

john1701a

> How come those who advocate hybrids for environmental
> reasons are not, in stead, encouraging the purchase of
> used cars?

We are... used hybrids.

An electric motor will last several hundred thousand miles. It will be able to deliver full power its entire life, and will later compensate for a aging engine who's compression is slowly dropping. An improved battery-pack will placed in back, providing performance better than when the vehicle was new, long after it would normall have been sent to the junk yard.

Hybrids offer much greater potential than people realize. They are just so new still that many simply haven't thought that far out yet.

JOHN

midnightcowboy

Great mileage EPA 60/51 amd most people exceed those estimates.

Acccurate gas gauge, trip computer and 11.9 gas tank that can go more than 700 miles on the highway.

CVT transmission which has gears and motor generators always engaged so it will never wear out.

Unique combinmation of economy and luxury features: smart entry/ smart start, alarm system, remote locks, all windows one-touch up/down, power adjustable seats, alcantra leather(like suede), automatic headlights, DRL, heated mirrors, autodimming rear view mirror, electric power steering, cruise control, automatic dual climate control, variable intermittant rain sensing wipers, stability control, dual lighted vanity mirror, Xexon lights, fog lights, tilt and telescopic steering wheel, navigation system, panoramic moonroof, full size spare tire, rear spoiler, timed rear defogger, 4 wheel 4 channel disk brakes, traction control, side airbags in front and back, side air curtains in front, heated front seats, EV only mode to allow to lock into electric drrive only and highway mode to lock into the ICE only.

And best of all the maintenance interval is 10,000 on oil changes, battery warranty has been extended to lifetime and is transferable and the first major maintenance interval has been extended
to 120,000 miles.

Superb handling, braking and performance in its class.

Readily available with all variations of options packages at just about every Toyota dealership.

With all of this what other choice is there ??

backy

Even with all that (forgot the rear-seat DVD system), it's still over $12,000 more than a Kia Rio!! And the Rio has a superior warranty!

midnightcowboy

The Prius Battery, not MG1

As stated several times before. The MG2 (50 kw) electric motor can receive power from the Prius Battery and the MG1 (10kw).

Since it is very obvious that MG1 being very small (10kW) cannot possibly supply the power requirement of 50 kw of MG2, MOST of the power for MG2 electric acceleration comes from the Prius Battery.

That makes #134 incorrect and #139 a misconception and correctly proves the statement originally made in #115 correct about the Prius battery supplying MOST of the power to the MG2 under electric acceleration.

By the way Backy what is today

backy

Well, that does it for me. If in fact the Prius battery is supplying MOST of the power to the MG2 under electric acceleration, that is obviously a fatal flaw of the Prius and hybrids in general and makes them unacceptable for use by me or the general public.

john1701a

> Since it is very obvious that MG1 being very small (10kW)
> cannot possibly supply the power requirement of 50 kw of MG2,
> MOST of the power for MG2 electric acceleration comes from the
> Prius Battery.

You ASSUME that acceleration is electric. You also ASSUME the entire 50kW is needed. That just plain isn't true, even when merging onto the highway.

In reality, it is mostly engine with assist from the motor.

An engine is at its most efficient when under a heavy load with a steady RPM. So it only makes sense that this is taken advantage of during acceleration.

JOHN

daysailer

as green does.

I suspect that I have consumed far less energy and may have contributed less to pollution, than has John during the time that he has owned TWO NEW hybrid vehicles. And his contention that the Prius will last longer than a conventional vehicle is unsubstantiated and defies logic (and has not been true in his ownership, since he is on his second). The suggestion that the electric drive will offset declining performance of an ageing ICE is laughable considering the marginal performance available from the COMBINED sources when new. Nor is a battery's capacity constant over its life, I wonder if the degradation is less than a typical ICE? And what of the many more start cycles that the ICE in a hybrid must endure (and rapid start to full load, in the case of the Prius). The only hybrid that may have a promise of longer life is the Insight, but that has nothing to do with the hybrid drivetrain. Rather, the Insight is less susceptable to corrosion due to its aluminum structure and composite panels and is more likely to live long outside of Arizona.

So, My 12 year old Miata at 27-31mpg (which, purchased used, cost half or less than a hybrid) and which replaced a 15 year old Civic (34-39mpg) may represent a "greener" lifestyle than those who wish to APPEAR ecologically conscientious by their choice of transport. Appearances are deceiving!

(and I'm perhaps $20K or more ahead, to boot!)

backy

Well, there's the emissions aspect, i.e. a 12-15 year old car with lots of miles on the engine compared to today's SULEV/PZEV cars, and the zero emissions of an idling hybrid, but you also save the energy it takes to make a new car. There's lots of ways to be "green". Taking the bus/train/bike/sidewalk whenever possible is another way.

andre1969

ICE cars really don't degrade much over time when it comes to the pollutants they put out. Provided he kept them well tuned up, the pollutants that Daysailer's old Civic and his Miata put out were negligible, at best.

The EPA and Eco-weenies like to tell you how much cleaner cars are today than they were just a few years ago, but truthfully, the biggest raw gains were made back in the 70's, when cars were made to run on unleaded fuel and were fitted with catalytic convertors. The typical 1979 model year car put out about 1/10th the pollutants of a typical 1970 model year car. Sure, they've gotten even cleaner since then, but in overall terms, the gains made since 1979 are a mere fraction of what was made since then.

And where cars are today, hell they're running so damn clean that you can't even use them to commit suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning anymore! By modern standards, my '00 Intrepid isn't a particularly "clean" car, but the numbers it pulled on the last emissions test were so low as to be negligible. It's probably more cost effective to help the environment by planting a damn tree or cutting back your thermostat or something, than it is to make cars run any "greener"!

daysailer

and exhaust emissions are but one. The energy production consumed in new vehicle manufacture entails substantial emissions as well. Even considering ultimate deposition to the waste stream, two Prius (Prii?) contribute one third more mass than my Civic and Miata combined.

andre1969

that's the way I look at it. Just out of curiosity, how much energy does it take, on average, to build a new car? Plus all the resources! I know a lot of materials are recycled nowadays, but that also takes energy, but there's still a lot of mining of raw resources going on.

In the long run, it might actually be better for the environment to just keep a car and run it for 20-25 years or more (it can be done...heck, I have a car that's 25 years old, one that's 37, and one that's 47!), than it is to keep buying a brand new car every 3, 4, or even 5 years. Eventually though, maybe the resultant energy expenditure and pollutants created by making replacement parts might make it worthwhile to eventually buy new.

john1701a

There are 60 million new vehicles built & sold each year worldwide. Multiply your "so damn clean" value by that factor of magnitude. Then try to convince someone suffering from asthma that those emissions aren't a problem.

JOHN

daysailer

But disposing of your last toy as soon as a new one is available does not a solution make, even if it is cleaner in one small dimension.

andre1969

there are a lot of things out there other than car emissions that are going to affect you. I don't have asthma, but hell, I get some serious sinus problems every spring when the grass starts turning green and the trees start budding, and every fall around mid-October (ragweed, I think). Whenever I'm around someone who smokes (whether or not they're currently puffing is irrelevant; I can usually smell it on their clothhing), it irriates me more than emissions from any car would (unless I'm sticking my nose in the tailpipe of an out-of-tune 1972 Camaro or something).

Heck, even certain perfumes and colognes bother me. My point is, there's more bad out there than just auto emissions. You could get rid of all the cars tomorrow, and even mother nature would find enough things to throw at the asthmatics out there, and people with sensitive sinuses, etc.

backy

Uh, no... that won't work, will it?

As for driving a car 20-25 years or more, that may be practical in Arizona or such, but you don't see many daily drivers past 10 years old in the Rust Belt. Maybe if we all drove Saturns...

daysailer

as soon as the rain stops here in VA the plants will fill the air with pollen. Little else will be noticeable as an airborne irritant.

daysailer

only the plastic skin would remain.

Andre,
re energy to produce a car. I've not researched it personally but someone in another thread suggested that it was more than half of life cycle energy consumption.

midnightcowboy

Let's try this again...

The full power of the ICE (76 hp) is being used and the full power of the motor is being used (67 hp). However the net horsepower is only 110 hp instead of 143 hp due to conversion losses and due to spinning the MG1 as a generator.

However, at 110 hp accelerating 2,890 pounds of car plus humans and other weight takes everything the little Prius has got.

I am not assuming anything, just using straight forward thinking. I guess you could very gently accelerate the Prius onto the highway and use part of the ICE 76 hp and part of the MG2 67 hp, but then most acceleration ramps are not 1/4 of a mile long.

Anyway, the 67 hp of MG2 (50kw) can not possibly be supplied by the MG1 ( 10kw or 13.4 hp)primarily. The bulk of the MG2 power input has to come from the Prius battery.

The only way the MG1 could ever supply the MG2 power would be, assuming 100% conversion efficiency) would be if and only if the MG2 were operating at 20% (twenty percent) capacity and providing on 10kw or 13.4 horsepower.

Look at the C&D article on the TRD Prius and how its Prius battery ran out after one lap. Guess why? Because the little MG1 couldn't recharge the Prius battery as fast as the MG2 motor was draining it!

midnightcowboy

From 3/15 Network World...

According to United Nations University study it takes 1.8 tons of raw materials (including water, fossil fuel and chemicals) to manufacture the average PC and monitor.

Just think how much more it takes to manufacture a "green" vehicle. You could never recover the energy and pollution waste in building a new car.

1. Keep old cars.
2. Drive Less.
3. Mass transportation.

backy

Many parts of a car (and even PCs) can be recycled, recovering some of the initial resource cost.

As for keeping a car, that is a good strategy as long as the car still meets your needs (people get married, have kids, have grandkids etc.) and you don't mind not having the latest safety technology. Compare the crash safety of cars from 10-15 years ago with those of today. No comparison.

boaz47

a red herring in this case. LA and Some places in Texas are supposed to have the heaviest US concentrations of smog yet they are not in the top ten for asthmatics.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/conditions/03/16/asthma.capitals/

Deli and Bejing are two of the worst cities in the world for smog and they do not have the most automobiles.

Industrial pollution seems to be a much greater problem by most scientific thinkers and writers but then, they aren't quite so emotional.

john1701a

> But disposing of your last toy

The vehicle obviously wasn't disposed of. Ownership was simply changed.

JOHN

john1701a

> Asthma is a red herring in this case.

That doesn't even make sense. Someone suffering from asthma wouldn't intentionally live in a high-risk area.

The recent comments have wandered too far off topic. So further posts will be disregarded.

JOHN

backy

Time to get back on topic!

john1701a

Rather than actually observing how a Prius works, you are just speculating. That PROVES nothing. It is only a THEORY. (And it is a good one too, logically thought out. However, that isn't what really happens. Toyota didn't choose that design.)

When sitting in the driver's seat, you can very clearly observer how the battery-pack is NOT used. A moderate acceleration onto a highway is done without using the battery-pack at all.

The same goes for climbing moderate sized hills.

JOHN

andre1969

some parts of the world are just naturally prone to bad air. For example, in LA those coastal mountains help trap the air, allowing pollution to build up. And in Houston, the air coming off the Gulf, and the air coming from the West combine, creating a stagnant area that's just not conducive to letting pollution dissipate. And there's an area in Anne Arundel County, MD, in the northeast part, that's supposed to have some of the nastiest air in the country. It has something to do with the air currents and the water currents from the Chesapeake Bay combining in a weird way, that also allows pollution to build up. Of course, being downwind of Baltimore probably doesn't help! ;-)

Still, you could wipe out the human race in its entirety tomorrow, and years from now, if aliens were to come to this planet and do pollution studies, they'd still find the areas around LA, Houston, and that tip of Anne Arundel County, MD, to be a little extra-dirty!

boaz47

direction? I bet I could find a quote that drifted towards emmisions (149) if I wanted to look for it. Or the knee jerk reaction to emmisions causing Asthma (153). But that would be off topic. *S*

mirth

Logic doesn't enter into the auto pollution or fuel consumption arguments. Logic tells us that industries and our houses use up way more fuel and pollute far more than automobiles. But those corporations are pretty hard to tackle with their herd of lawyers, and the greenies really would prefer not to sell their 3000 sq ft house for a 1000 sq ft one of even turn down the A/C. So instead they go after what they think they can control - what car you or I can drive. Hence we get ridiculously stupid laws like 10% of cars need to be electric by 2004. Or commercials labeling SUV drivers as terrorists, where the author of the commercial probably owns a couple of 10,000+ sq ft homes.

backy

Ha, that was a good one for April Fool's day! You need to look back a lot further than that. The question is, how often has this board been ON topic? And how many posts would be here if it were on topic at all times?

Taken literally, there's only two "types" of hybrids to buy today. Soon there will be more, e.g. diesel/electric hybrids, and the Honda system with variable cylinders as a variation on their hybrid design. Or you could look at it by class of vehicle and say pretty soon there will be SUVs to buy in addition to small-to-medium sized sedans. But the choices are few right now.

boaz47

You have hit the nail on the head. We lather ourselves up over the small things so that we don't have to look at the bigger picture. We fall for the "spend more to save" concept that advertisers use. Of all the energy consumed in the US only something less than 33 percent goes to transportation. I haven't a clue to how much of that is corporate transportation verses private transportation but it should be easy to see that Daysailers contention about the production of a new vehicle using more energy could be true.

But it all boils down to people buying what they want rather than trying to convince others that what they buy is the best thing since sliced bread. If anyone wants help in buying a hybrid they can decide between a Honda or a Toyota. Six of one half a dozen of the other. What should they buy in the future? What ever they have to sell that meets their needs and wants. Guessing what that will be requires a crystal ball.

john1701a

Stereotyping and focusing on today only is deceptive, at best. It is definitely not productive, nor objective.

Get back on topic.

JOHN

john1701a

By the way... I do find it intriguing how resistant some people are to change.

JOHN

andre1969

I dunno about energy consumption, but I read somewhere awhile back that around 20% of pollution in the U.S. is attributable to motor vehicles (cars, trucks, buses). So that leaves factories, refineries, power plants, trains, ships, airplanes, literally everything else contributing to the other 80%.

Another interesting statistic is that if you run a gasoline-powered pushmower (not a riding lawnmower/tractor, which is even worse), you're putting out about the same amount of pollutants in one hour as driving the average modern car puts out in 5-6 hours!

I see a lot of people cutting their grass once a week, sometimes even more. I used to live in a condo, so I had no yard to worry about, but cut my grandmother's grass every 2-3 weeks. Using a tractor, it took about an hour and a half. Where I'm living now, it'll probably take at least two hours to cut it. Maybe I should just plant some trees, so that people have something to hug? ;-)*

(*seriously, I'm thinking about doing that...not so y'all have something to hug, but because I like trees, wildlife, stuff like that)

midnightcowboy

But if you put the trailer hitch on your Prius and pulled lawn cutting blades behind it in the EV electric mode wouldn't that reduce the pollution ?

I mean since the expert said the Prius could have a trailer hitch and it could be used to pull boats out of the water , but not to tow them or anything else. I have been trying to think of other reasons, besides a bicycle rack , that one might use a prius trailer hitch for.

I thought the Bovine Methane release accounted for some 20% of the pollution. And the continual cutting down of rain forests and other plant growth for more housing is a significant factor in the greenhouse effect becuase of the increasing CO2.

An I still say the Prius electric power comes primarily from the Battery.

I think my current Prius level is about $5.00 per gallon. Then I could make the sacrifice in power, handling, moonroof loss, power seat loss and leather loss. When the future "Enterprise" version of the Prius comes out, if it ever does, and has these feature then will talk Toyota.

I am almost resigned to the fact that the ECVT of the Prius will never be adapted to the die-hard 10% manual shift enthusiasts.

backy

Does that mean you are waiting eagerly for the Accord hybrid? It should have everything you said you want: power, handling, moonroof, power seat, and leather.