Actually I am waiting to see the Accord Hybrid. It does meet my criteria. Especially if they see fit to have a 6-speed version.
Going to Houston Auto show tomorrow. Hopefully they will have some insight on the Accord Hybrid. But in typical Honda/Acura style there porbably won't be that much definitive infiramtion until right before it is available.
My current mileage sucks; I am only averaging 21 mpg with a 50 mile roundtrip commute with about half at 80-85 mph. In spite of what people say, my requirement for power is more of a safety need than some others on this thread. When you have 4-5 lanes each way and the slow lane is 70+ with only a couple of car length between cars, in makes point and shoot power more of a safety comfort than a want.
I have seriously looked at the Prius and have followed this forum and read a lot about it. But, I will be honest with you, I can't drive like a majority of the readers here. I can't drive slow and gingerly to try and extract the last mile per gallon. The environment I drive in is too fast paced and besides that it would actually be extremely dangerous. I haven't heard of any sporty drivers that have chosen the Prius. If Prius made a Prius GT I would go for it.
Yes your Rio DVD entertainment screen was classic as was the long warranty
hey MidCow I'm anxious to see the hybrid Accord but have a sinking feeling it will be 30 grand, I went to the Houston Auto show last year but had some free tickets with a free parking pass - no such luck this year so please post your comments here ! Where do you drive 80 or 85 mph and the slow lane is 70 + ?! The Katy or North frwy at 3 AM ? My 4 banger Civic loves to spin but most the time I'm just creeping along with everyone else.
"I haven't heard of any sporty drivers that have chosen the Prius."
Depends on what sport you are referring to. True you probably won't see a Prius in Nascar anytime soon.
For us who continuously challenge ourselves for the best MPG run and have so much fun at it, is this a non-competitive sport? Maybe an enthusiast?
If only an enthusiast then Henry Ford was one too. Imagine his gas buggies going all by themselves without a hoarse! So were the wright brothers Biplane, Bell's communicator etc
All have serious flaws in my view and none are economical, but if it suits your needs and your wallet, my opinion is irrelevant as is that of everyone else.
Just don't become like certain others here who, having read the gospel according to Toyota, become evangelical in their quest to have everyone worship HSD, economic realities and individual requirements notwithstanding.
...would a Prius get if you took it out on the highway and continually tried to keep up speeds of 80-85 mph? I know they prefer stop-and-go driving so they can regenerate the batteries, and long highway stretches start hurting economy.
It's been my experience though, that when you take cars with smaller engines that are normally fuel-efficient and economy-minded, once you take them out on the highway and really run 'em good and hard, economy plummets. Throw a few nice, big hills into the equation, and it drops even worse.
The hype on the news talks about some hybrids being shown; total 660 cars being shown. One mentioned was the Lexus RX400H. I am hoping Honda also shows their hybrid Accord. I will report back on the Houston auto show.
I drive Eastex North towards Kingwood to Fall Creek (Beltway 8). After I10 junction it really clears for about 12 miles with only a little slowdown at the 610 junction. Coming and going the speed is always 80-85 (except for rain and wrecks). But when I get to the 527 spur between downtown and greenway it is slow stop and go which would be ideal for a Prius or Insight;) So half of my drive (12 miles)is very fast, a third (8 miles)about 50-65 and 3-4 miles of stop-n-go.
"become evangelical in their quest to have everyone worship HSD"
You don't have to worry about that even a little bit. I've always said that Hybrids aren't for everyone.
I just caught the rare happening of an Insight refuling. He pulled right behind my HCH at the pumps. He said he traveled to Pensicola last winter and drove 80-85MPH most of the way and averaged about 72MPG.
one more note regarding the energy consumed in automobile manufacture: aluminum is, like, six times more energy-intensive to produce than steel. So even though the Insight is by far the most fuel-frugal of the three current hybrid models, a LOT more energy was wasted in constructing its mostly-aluminum body.
CR got high 30s for fuel economy in the Prius in their tests. That is about the worst number I have seen. So if your entire drive is 80-90 mph highway driving, you could probably still count on that figure in Prius. But at that point you could probably do about 95% as well in a Civic sedan. In straight long-distance run, my Matrix XR would get 35 mpg at that speed.
Wouldn't it be nice if Honda put the 6-speed manual in its Accord hybrid? Alas, I think that beauty is reserved for the performance version of the coupe, and therefore can't be allowed into "lowly" sedans!
One thing I would like to see Toyota do is put in simulated driver-selectable gearing, like Audi and others do with their CVTs. You can "paddle shift" (even though you are merely selecting pre-chosen ratios, you are not actually shifting anything). Yes, it would not be the most fuel-efficient way to drive the car, but you could drive some of the time in gas-miser mode, and have a little more fun the rest of the time.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
___I have only had the 5-speed Insight up to 80 mph for about 10 seconds a month or so ago to see where the instantaneous would lye at that high a speed. It wasn’t pretty :-( It was ~ 30 degrees ambient w/ no wind and I saw ~ 37.5 - 42.5 mpg on the instantaneous at 80 mph. This was while speeding on a flat bit of road on I55 in the southbound lanes just past the Des Plaines river here in Illinois
___Backy, the Insight would not achieve the kind of mileage it does with an extra pair of rear seats (however that would be accomplished?). It does receive some wild fuel efficiency extremes as a 2-seater that I would not have thought possible as little as a year ago
___Nippononly, aluminum manufacture energy consumption was an interesting piece of information I wonder how the automobile industry will lighten automobiles of the future with that albatross hanging around their necks? Probably more plastics or composites if they ever do come down in price?
Quote from CR's review of the Prius: "A lot of the Prius' appeal is its 44-mpg overall fuel economy and ultraclean emissions."
As for adding two seats to the rear of an Insight, I looked at the Insight at my local auto show, and if anyone can find a way to put any kind of seats in the back of the Insight that can safely and comfortably hold anyone taller than about 2', I'd like to see it.
___Weren’t you the one talking about ripping off the sedan rear end of a Camry and replacing it with a hatchback or similar a few months ago? It isn’t going to happen the same way a Prius will never achieve 100 + mpg like an Insight can Then again, if you want to see a 4 passenger Insight like Hybrid automobile with the economy of 3 to 4 X that of an 04 Prius, this might be something you might be interested in? Its rear seat leg and headroom would be severely lacking but if the price were right well, you know what I mean ;-)
___As for CR’s “A lot of the Prius' appeal is its 44-mpg overall fuel economy and ultraclean emissions” commentary, I wonder what they would say about the following:
“A lot of the 5-Door Focus’ appeal is its 30-mpg overall fuel economy, ultraclean emissions, fastest and most enjoyable PZEV available, and its sub $16,000 price when practically fully loaded”.
I am sure you are right - plastics and composites have a VERY bright future in the automobile industry!
backy: sorry, sorry, I screwed up, that was the review of the HCH I was remembering. Went and looked it up: CR Annual Auto Issue "The gasoline/electric hybrid also performs like a regular Civic, though slower, and averaged 36 mpg in CR tests."
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That Daihatsu concept car is a cute little bugger. Too bad it's 1) a concept car, and 2) I don't know of any Daihatsu dealers within 2000 miles of where I live.
BTW, CR would never say what Wayne stated about the Focus. Why not? Since this is a discussion about hybrids, no one but Wayne probably cares, so unless he can figure it out it will just have to be one of life's little mysteries.
___Truth hurts, doesn’t it ;-) As for the UFE-II; you just figured out that it was a Hybrid concept?
___You were speaking of installing 2 more rear seats in an Insight a few posts ago? You were turning a Camry into a hatchback and widening a Focus for more rear seat room a few months ago, right? Have you figured out how you are going to modify the Prius’ hatchback to make it a sedan so you can see out of the rear window a bit better?
___Finally, at least with a Honda Insight, you won’t ever miss a maximum EPA estimate in the worst winter conditions tank after tank after tank. I can only hope your soon to arrive 04 Prius will at least match the EPA combined estimate just once.
Saturns have (mostly) plastic bodies and do quite well in crash tests. Of course, that's because of the steel beneath the plastic. Actually, going "crunch easier in a wreck" can be a good thing, for the occupants. Some of the best performers in crash tests give themselves up to protect the safety cage. Look at the photos of the '04 Prius in the NHTSA crash tests, for example--the front is all squashed in, but the passenger compartment held up well.
I don't know that an all-plastic car is feasible. Some cars are largely aluminum--the A8 comes to mind--and safety on those is not an issue. But they are pricey.
Would plastic cars go "crunch" easier in a wreck compared to aluminium or steel?
Carbon Fiber composites can be incredibly strong. If I remember correctly, its the Ferrarri Enzo that has a carbon fiber chin spoiler that is capable of suppporting the weight of the entire car.
I am not sure if CR recommends the Focus anymore due to reliability. You can't get stability, keyless entry, xenons, traction control, side curtains, bluetooth. Where's the value??? My money is on the Prius. There is nothing YET that compares for the value except the Honda Civic Hybrid. I am looking forward to the new Lexus 400H. If it gets 30 MPG average, I am going to add that baby to my garage.
When I goto fordvehicles.com & 'build my Focus', enter my zip code (77070) only the 2.0L Zetec engine (from the Escort) shows up, no PZEV yet (on the models I tried, the ZX3, ZX5 & the LX) can you even get the PZEV engine in Texas ? Im' not in the market for a Focus (unless the price is right) - Focus reliability is up but yea no stability, keyless entry, xenons, traction control, side curtains or bluetooth so it is in a different league that the Prius. Oddly enough a bicycle ride I do a few times a month has it scheduled rest stop in the back lot of a big Ford dealer here in the Houston area (Planet Ford) I've asked several sales critters about Focus engine options but I just get the deer in the headlights look, not sure if thats cause of my helmet hair and banana I'm eating or they don't get asked about tailpipe emmisions very often.
___I just setup a Ford Focus ZX5 Premium from your own zip code and the 2.3 L is included right from the order page? It is the Premium that includes all the amenities and the 2.3 L PZEV HW. When completely setup including the rebates and X-Plan if you have that available to you, it really shines.
Options:
Weather Package including Heated Seats and Heated Side Mirrors, Leather Seating Surfaces, Automatic 4-Speed Transmission, Side Impact Air Bags, Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS)
Std. features (Interior):
Air Conditioning, Driver & Front Passenger Air Bags, AM/FM Stereo Single CD & MP3 Player with Digital Clock & 4-Speakers, Front and Rear Floor Mats, Power Locks, Sport Bucket Front Seats with Adjustable Head Restraints and Passenger Side Single Map Pocket, Manual Driver Front Seat Height Adjuster, Split/Fold-Down Rear Seat with Split Flip-Up Rear Seat Cushion, SecuriLock® Passive Anti-Theft System, Speed Control, Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel, Tilt/Telescoping Steering Wheel, Tachometer, Power Windows with One-Touch Down Driver Window, Rear Window Defroster, and Power Moonroof
Std. features (Exterior):
Fog Lamps, Dual Power Mirrors, Remote Keyless Entry, Solar Tint Glass, 5 MPH Impact Absorbing Bumper, Bodyside Body Color Moldings
Engine and Transmission:
2.3L DOHC I4 Engine
Suspension, Tires, and Wheels:
16" 5-Spoke Alloy Wheels, P205/50R16 All-Season Tires, Rear Stabilizer Bar, Power Rack & Pinion Steering, Independent Front Suspension MacPherson Strut and Control Blade Independent Rear Suspension.
___Here in Chicago, the Ford Focus comes with a free 5 Yr./100,000 mile (I am not sure if it was 100,000 mile or 50,000 mile?) extended warranty, a free Dell Computer, $2,000 cash back, and another $1,000 if you have access to the X-Plan. In your locale (ZIP = 77070 wherever that is?), you actually have available to you $2,500 cash back although I do not know if that includes another $1,000 off on the X-Plan or the included Dell or the included extended warranty?
___Actually, the Focus is recommended by CR’s because of its improved reliability the last I heard? Can someone verify either way as I am not a subscriber but read it in the super market like most males would when the wife is shopping and I have to go along ;-)
You can't get stability, keyless entry, xenons, traction control, side curtains, bluetooth. Where's the value???
___First off, keyless entry is std.. The extra value comes about in the fact you cannot get leather, height adjustable, heated seats, 16” Alloys, Independent rear suspension, 5 mph bumpers F&R, Tachometer, CD/MP3 player, color matched body side moldings, F&R mats as std. and an engine that is not only as clean but is much more powerful and is even quieter and free of NVH then that of the 04 Prius. The fact that the whole automobile can be had for $4,500 - $11,000 less plus rides better, handles better, far exceeds the performance of the 04 Prius is another feather in its cap. That is the value It does lose ~ 15 mpg for the average driver however. You can do the math from there.
___Might I suggest a quick read of the latest Ford Focus PZEV reviewed in Autoweek or that of the Ford Focus ZTW PZEV based station wagon in Car and Driver a month or so ago? This PZEV based 2.3 L engine is what makes this Ford a buy against any Hybrid available today. Without it, I wouldn’t touch the Focus!
___Oh hell, since its not another forum, I can post links to articles in Autoweek and Car and Driver, right?
___Good point and nice link Just make sure you are looking at the 03/04 PZEV based Focus’ instead of the much older MY ones as the thread starts back in 2001 Sorry I stepped on your toes in regards to another better overall value imho.
I know you (and probably a lot of other people) wouldn't like it if I posted message after message after message about cars that are a much better overall value imho than the Focus, on a board dedicated to which type of hybrid to buy--or even on a Focus board. There's comparison boards for that kind of thing.
it still boils down to is Honda or Toyota. If this forum is asking what to buy what other choices are there?
Just a side note. Way back almost 30 years ago CARB mandated that auto manufacturers produce a zero emmisions vehicle by 2004. The manufacturers told CARB they couldn't do it but they might come up with a ICE powered high mileage little vehicle that was very clean. CARB turned them down and insisted they make a zero emission vehicle available to the public. Well the years went buy and everyone from GM to Toyota were working on a pure EV. Toyota had a fleet of Rav4s and GM had their EV-1. Ford had the EV rangers. The time approached and the manufacturers came to CARB and said, surprise, we have a ICE/Electric car that only pollutes a little but still uses gas or diesel. CARB acted like this was a new idea, not the same old one proposed 30 years ago, and said ok that would do till the fuel cell vehicles will be produced. So the manufacturers get their way and the EV is dropped. Yes, in the news paper today even Toyota is dropping production of the Rav4 EVs. At least they are selling them to some of their customers. GM and Ford are taking them back and crushing them. Then the Federal government is offering funding to help make fuel cell cars available in ten years? Do you wonder what will happen when those ten years get a bit closer? It could be a simple as a clean burning renewable fuel in a ICE powered vehicle that gets 80MPG. That was just a rant but that is a possibility.
As for the question of the Forum? A Honda or a Toyota, flip a coin.
___Did Djasonw not say CR doesn’t recommend the Focus anymore and add information on what it is missing in terms of its value? Did Rfruth not ask about a Ford Focus PZEV build in his zip code? If you are interested in information other then from a Hybrid to compare to and its easy to get, I will be more then receptive to add what I can.
___It is really too bad about the EV-1 in particular Not only was it relatively cost effective (not including the purchase price of course), but was a pollution free as the plants that provided the power at the time. If it had just a little bit more range or if my job location(s) had a charging station, I would have been all over it.
I know how you feel. I had even started to lobby for our company to put in charging stations. This was back when California supported car pooling to the point of having a state car pooling site where you could contact other people in your area and they even mandated a percentage of people do just that depending on the size of your company. Wasn't the RAV4 the one with a range of close to 120 miles? I don't remember. But I had sent away for some literature on the Sparrow even if it turned out to be a flop. I still think the EV-1 Was the best of the lot at that time but that could be because I belonged to a Saturn Club at the time and some of the Members drove EV-1s. It is no secret that I consider hybrids a step from progress and a even bigger step back in car performance. To me the Insight was the smallest retreat back from the EV but it was a surrender none the less. Just in my opinion. I got to ride in one and it was interesting and got great mileage. But it left the enthusiast in me a bit cold. Still if someone is interested in a Hybrid for whatever reason, being clean or seperating us from foreign oil are smoke and mirrors, they can get a Honda or Toyota. It is as simple as that. I just wonder if they will have 30 years of development like EVs did or will they see the crusher pile even sooner?
I feel a little sad that the EV-1 owners are being forced to give back their cars despite their willingness to let GM off the hook for future warranty coverage, future servicing and parts, etc. That is one loyal little club - they oughtta be able to keep their cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
___The Toyota Prius made it to a “Top pick” category:
“As a sign of how vehicles in general are improving, a number of new models made this year’s list. The Acura TL, Toyota Prius gas/electric hybrid, and Toyota Sienna minivan received major redesigns for 2004, and all topped their categories in our testing.”
___The Ford Focus made it to 2!
“The Ford Focus has always performed well in our testing, and its improved reliability now allows us to recommend it. As a result, the Focus is our Top Pick in two categories: small sedan and fun to drive.”
___When the EV-1’s were crushed, some of those that had owned them actually gave them a funeral of sorts. The EV groups were up in arms. GM did it so that they could write off the entire project as an expense (loss) in its entirety. I am sure they (some of the engineers working on the project) would have liked to leave a few in the owners hands but those few that would have been able to keep them even if given to them by GM would have caused GM tax complications. Aren’t there still a few out in the publics hands w/ possible lawsuits keeping GM from taking them back? I thought I had read this somewhere anyway? In any case, it is a sad time in the history and evolution of EV’s as the EV-1 (EV-1-Gen2’s or EV-2’s as some called them w/ the more powerful Ni-MH packs) were supposedly good out to something like 120 - 140 miles? I will have to find some of the older EV sites but I thought I had read of one owner w/ the stronger Ni-MH pack pushing one into the 170 mile + range using std. ICE fuel saving like techniques. That is getting very close to ideal for just about everyone for a strict commuter or even more if you ask me
Focus is NOT a hybrid and should not even be mentioned here. But..as usual... Wayne who happens to be a closet Prius junky (nothing wrong with that!) likes to compare apples to oranges. But.. if we are to continue this comparison let's do it. I must qualify my comparison and restate that the Ford Focus does NOT have smary entry exit. I mispoke. Ford (as usual) took a step backwards and does NOT offer stability control. A VERY stupid mistake. That's tantamount to a car manufacturer NOT putting in airbags! Stability is the most misunderstood safety feature available today. Now please hear me out. I would DEFINITELY consider buying a new Ford Focus IF it had some of the goodies that you can get with the Prius. I did NOT solely buy the Prius for the gas mileage. I bought it because of the safety features and all the toys. I also wish the ZX3 were a little bigger as it appears the Prius has tons more legroom in the rear. Again,, we're comparing apples to oranges. If the Focus once again offers stability, I would definitely consider it as an additional car for the family. Anyone know what the average individual is experiencing with gas mileage with the new engine?
re: NVH in Prius and Focus... the Prius definitely is smoother. I've driven both.
You might get more responses on a question about the Focus' real-world fuel economy if you posted it on a board frequented by Focus owners, like the ZX5 board for which I posted the link awhile back.
___If you ask for Focus data, I will be more then happy to oblige Traction control although not VSC was pulled from the PZEV because they had not integrated it in with the 2.3 L PZEV motor just yet. Maybe next year? I can only hope the Prius adds a more comfortable or even luxurious seating arrangement in its next iteration as well. Currently, it doesn’t have height adjusters, heated options, or even an option for leather although there are some indications that leather covered seating surfaces directly from Toyota themselves is available now? Then again, I don’t know where you live and the lack of heated, height adjustable, leather seats and a telescopic steering wheel may not mean much for $4,500 - $11,000 more?
___As for the safety of VSC, head into a corner a little hot in an 04 Prius and guess what? VSC might bring you back but if you are beyond the limits of the skid pad data on a perfectly clean and flat road like those it was tested on, your toast. The Focus’ higher slalom and skid pad numbers however may allow you to continue without crashing because it wouldn’t have broken loose yet? This is all hypothetical of course. Well maybe not given the Focus exudes much more confidence in the twisties and you are more then likely pushing it much further then in an 04 Prius? I would have to make an assumption that because you can, most will which is really a bad thing for all of our sakes :-(
___NVH in the Prius being better then the Focus PZEV? I have driven both as well and the 1.5 L Prius motor makes an unnatural raucous when accelerating hard.
What is unnatural about noise from a small 4-cylinder engine on hard acceleration?
BTW, anyone know if Ford is planning a hybrid version of the Focus, following their hybrid debut with the Escape? Using the hybrid technology they have licensed from Toyota?
But push it hard, and the tiny 4-cylinder engine does show a noisy side.
___I haven’t read that the Focus will ever be a Hybrid? Why would anyone want to pay $2,500 - $4,000 more and ruin its performance for maybe 10 - 15 mpg at best? Unless of course it were to make it to 60 in less then 7 seconds instead of ~ 8 and attain the mileage of many Hybrid’s when Hybridized? It still wouldn’t be worth it even with the price of gas what it is today!
So "a noisy side" = "an unnatural raucous"? Do you know of any `1.5L gas engines that don't get noisy when revved hard? I don't.
How do you know a hybrid Focus would cost $2500-$4000 more than a standard Focus? Look at the Prius for example. It has quite a few features standard that the base Focus does not, e.g. ABS/traction control, premium cloth interior and carpeting, video display, steering-wheel controls for stereo and climate control, automatic climate control, alloy wheels, heated side mirrors, rear center armrest, remote keyless entry, and cruise control. Maybe Ford could apply HSD to a basic Focus and come up with an economy hybrid for under $15k that gets 20+ mpg more than the ICE Focus (based on CR's tests of the Focus and Prius). Heck, they might even throw in a seat height adjuster (but I hope they redesign it first).
I remember reading somewhere that since BMW and Mercedes implemented dynamic stability control in their cars, accidents have been reduced significantly. Obviously these stats were yielded from Europe and NOT the US. I won't buy ANY car without VSC, hence my refusal to buy a Focus. I do LOVE the look of the ZX3 but I want the following:
VSC Navigation Xenons Smart Entry Steering wheel buttons for A/C, radio etc larger cargo area Traction control at LEAST 40 MPG Proven Toyota reliability (CR rates the Prius reliability as outstanding, not so for the Ford) Side curtain airbags CVT (love that feature) Electric A/C (hate 4 cyl cars that bog down with A/C on ..not so in the Prius)
Gotta run.. my friends and I are test driving a Mazda 3 soon
___The 1.5 L Prius motor is louder then the 2.3 L Focus engine when accelerating hard. The Prius however is quieter when coasting and when it is in stealth mode At highway speeds, they sound about the same to me?
___You asked why would a Focus w/ a Hybrid Drivetrain cost $2,500 - $4,000 more? All you have to do is look up the price of a 97 - 04 Prius battery pack to see why. How about the MG Sets and controllers added into the Hybrid’s drivetrain
___What comes std. on the “base” Prius vs. what comes on a “loaded” Focus that costs ~ $4,500 less? Not much. If you are speaking of a “base” Focus, they can be purchased for < $10K! Can you imagine purchasing an 04 Prius without the LCD, Power windows, locks, mirrors, ABS, steering wheel controls, alloy wheels, remote keyless entry, and Cruise for ~ $10,000? If so, I would say that is a great value. Unfortunately, you can’t. Did you really want to compare a “base” Focus that costs less then ½ of that of a base Prius? I am comparing a “loaded” Focus that is still ~ $4,500 less then the “base” Prius and as much as $11,000 less then a Prius when fully loaded.
___And on to the options What does the LCD do for you? Tell you where the power is coming from? Do you think that will help you over the next 150,000 miles. If you are driving like a normal car it won’t other then drag your attention from the road to look over at the center mounted display. We have one in one of our vehicles and it isn’t good for much. Toyota should have placed the one item fuel consumption game gauge in the front so it can be used on a continuous basis. To bad they didn’t.
___Steering wheel controls on the Prius are great! I could only wish the Focus had as many of the steering wheel mounted controls as the Prius does.
___ABS/traction control. ABS is included in the Ford Focus as priced above. Traction control, probably next year :-(
___Premium cloth interior and carpeting? In comparison to a leather equipped interior in the Ford Focus? Some Lexus’ come with a lower cost “option” of cloth interior and most purchasers wouldn’t even consider the thought of downgrading. You would be?
___Alloy wheels? The Focus Premium comes std. with 16” s, not 15’s.
___Heated side mirrors, remote keyless entry, and cruise control. Yes, the Ford Focus comes with them as well. No rear center arm rest however.
___C/D’s observed mpg results:
04 Prius: 42 mpg 04 Focus Wagon: 27 mpg
___And with that, the Focus still out handles, still out accelerates, still has better performance in every performance attribute one can think of other then mpg, has more driver comfort options like heated and height adjustable leather seats and a telescopic wheel, an MP3 player, and now comes with a 5 Yr./50,000 mile bumper to bumper extended warranty, and a Dell PC here near Chicago for at least $4,500 less then the “base” Prius.
___On a similar note, does the 04 Prius not allow heated air to come from the center vents but only the sides?
___To bad the Mazda and Ford contingents don’t come with VSC The Mazda interiors look very nice indeed.
___NAVI, maybe you might want to take a look at a PDA based solution for that instead. NAVI in many lux OEM’s come in at ~ $1,500 - $2,000 extra. Most of the Navtech maps they use are between 1 and 3 years old right off the show room floor and some will not ever be updated. Those that can usually cost > $200 to upgrade and the upgrades are to maps usually 1 to 3 years old again. They are also not available in quarter over quarter, semi-annually, or in some cases, year over year but much more random. I have read that Lexus is doing a bit better job then Acura but they both stink. In the Lexus’, you cannot view the map while driving IIRC I don’t know about the Prius but I it might be the same? Someone else will have to correct me in that regard. The PDA based solution I use in all my automobiles uses the same Navtech maps and has even more POI’s but the maps are currently just a few months old compared to 1 - 3 years old maps that you will be using in an OEM Navtech based solution. I update them ~ every 6 months for less then $100 and that includes a newer program as well. Here is an interesting anecdote. Why not walk into your local Walmart and pick up a Rand McNally Road Atlas from the year 2001. Let’s make it better. Find one from the year 2003? Now why do you think you couldn’t find those particular years? It wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact they are outdated already, could it?
___HID Xenon’s can be added to most vehicles for ~ $350.00. SE/SS is really neat. Larger cargo area? 04 ZX5 = 18.6 cu. ft./04 Prius = 16.1 cu. ft. At least 40 mpg? You seem to forget that 15 - 20 mpg difference costs you ~ $11,000. The way you equipped the Prius anyway? Reliability Doesn’t CR rate the 04 Focus as better then average now? The latest longer bumper to bumper warranty offer looks very nice. Side curtains Very nice indeed. Electric A/C because you hate 4 cylinder cars that bog down? You are already driving one of the slowest 4 cylinder cars on the road! Any PZEV based Focus with its A/C on will still out perform a Prius with its A/C on or not and that even includes being pushed by a 30 mph tail wind.
___I have read of some HCH owners picking up their Hybrid’s in the $18K range if that helps? I don’t know how but it is another outlet instead of a $26,000 + 04 Prius.
I see you missed (or chose to ignore) the intent of my last post entirely. It was about the possibility of Ford using the Focus as a platform to bring an economy-priced hybrid to market. But I'll give up trying to explain it lest we get into another 50-post chain about the glories of the Focus. Why don't you start a board ala "Focus ZX5: 5-door Hatchback Value Champ" and you can then talk all you want about how great a value you think the Focus is against not only the Prius, but all other 5-door hatchbacks (and good luck trying to show the Focus' value proposition against some of those).
Re figures from CR, you might want to recheck those. In their latest two issues, they show the Prius at 44 mpg overall in their tests and the Focus at 24 mpg. That was with the Zetec engine and automatic I believe. I don't think CR has tested a Focus with the 2.3L engine yet. But its EPA rating is almost identical to that of the Zetec. And the Focus is rated just average in reliability, the Prius and HCH much above average.
___I haven’t even heard a rumor that Ford was going to Hybridize the Focus? Have you? What would there be to explain? If the Hybridized car cost more then the fuel cost savings you will receive, why do it? If there was a great performance increase as well as better fuel economy, then you might have something but every Hybridized automobile available to us today is as slow as some of the slowest cars on the road. At least you have gotten over the PZEV Emissions ratings between the two.
___This is using the much more powerful, economical, and cleaner 2.3 L Duratec designed PZEV based engine, not the older Zetec designed one.
___At least you have finally recognized what the value champ really is? Have you considered the HCH as an alternative? If you wait long enough, the Hybrid Accord will be available but I can bet it will be pushing $30K and at that cost, it won’t match the value of the LX based Accord imho.
Sorry, you were talking about CR so much I thought your mpg numbers came from there. C/D is is. I'm sure they were driving moderately, trying for best fuel economy with both cars, as those C/D editors typically do (NOT).
Recall I had asked if anyone had heard of plans to hybridize the Focus. It was my (unsuccessful) attempt to steer back to the topic of this board. I will give up now, go do my chores on this lovely day and let others talk about what type of hybrid they would buy... PLEASE!
As for "value champs"... I have my opinion of what the value champ is of the 5-door hatchback class, and it ain't the Focus, nor is it the Prius. 'nuff said about that, on this board anyway.
Today, as usual I half watched the NASCAR Nextel cup race and one of the commentators mentioned that a Winston Cup driver is going to see how far he can go in a Escape hybrid on one tank of gas (not on a race track) the commentator went on to say the Escape hybrid was a combo gas electric and that it was "self re charging" - whats going on here, it was the Winton cup for the longest now NASCAR is talking up hybrids (Elliott Sadler won the race, in a Ford)
The Lexus RX400H was roped off looke like any other Lexus RX/ 270 horsepower with milaage ratings of 31 city and 36 highway. Interesting to not that the City is no longer higher than the highway like the Prius. looked at and sat in the Prius, It has a lot of plastic some of it feels cheap, but a pretty good car.
Honda didn't have a clue about the hybrid Accord.
Miles per gallon and "grren" cars was not the overwhelming falvor of the show.
The Lexus concept HPX was awesome with crystal LED lights.
The best cars were the Saleenes, although not necessarily Hybrids, good mileage or "green". But the hal a millon dollar S7 is a beauty to behold.
New Scions are a possibility. A little cheap inside, but lots of standard features at a less than $17K fully loaded.
Performance was in!
Ford had soime concept cars: new Mustang GT roped off, GT40 on a platform. Dodn't see any Hybrid.
Good show lots of cars, 660. Probably 15-20 future cars and concept cars.
For once I am going to have to agree with Wayne. I think the Mazda 3 is a great alternative to those wanting a low emissions vehicle. The waiting list for the Prius is out of hand now. Granted you won't get the mileage you get in a Prius (I estimate mid 20's avg city/highway), but you are getting a fantastic PZEV vehicle with a great engine. Unfortunately when you price it out with options you can get in a Prius, the price goes up quite a bit. I priced one on Emunds and it priced out at 22k. I did add xenons, auto and nav but that is still 3k LESS than a fully priced Prius, BUT you are NOT getting VSC, traction control, smart entry exit and a few other goodies. It seems as if they're comparable in price. The Prius will get double the mileage BUT the Mazda would be more fun to drive. Space is virtually the same. Looks are subjective. I also believe the Mazda is based on the same chassis as the new Volvo S40. If it had VSC, I'd sell my Prius for what I paid for it. Maybe next year.
___31/36 city/hwy for the RXh400 is something special. It beats what has been posted about the Highlander hybrid at 27.x something combined by quite a margin! Ford or Honda didn’t even mention the Escape or Accord Hybrid? I sure wish I knew what was up with those two
___Djasonw, I am glad you liked the Mazda contingent. I love the interiors but the prices scare me off as well
Comments
Going to Houston Auto show tomorrow. Hopefully they will have some insight on the Accord Hybrid. But in typical Honda/Acura style there porbably won't be that much definitive infiramtion until right before it is available.
My current mileage sucks; I am only averaging 21 mpg with a 50 mile roundtrip commute with about half at 80-85 mph. In spite of what people say, my requirement for power is more of a safety need than some others on this thread. When you have 4-5 lanes each way and the slow lane is 70+ with only a couple of car length between cars, in makes point and shoot power more of a safety comfort than a want.
I have seriously looked at the Prius and have followed this forum and read a lot about it. But, I will be honest with you, I can't drive like a majority of the readers here. I can't drive slow and gingerly to try and extract the last mile per gallon. The environment I drive in is too fast paced and besides that it would actually be extremely dangerous. I haven't heard of any sporty drivers that have chosen the Prius. If Prius made a Prius GT I would go for it.
Yes your Rio DVD entertainment screen was classic as was the long warranty
Making a Prius into a lawn mower?
LOL
This stuff is getting good, reminds me of that archived thread.
This motor, that motor, perpetual batteries
and asthma is really confusing while I decide
"What type of hybrid should I buy?"
Steve & family
Depends on what sport you are referring to.
True you probably won't see a Prius in Nascar anytime soon.
For us who continuously challenge ourselves for the best MPG run and have so much fun at it, is this a non-competitive sport? Maybe an enthusiast?
If only an enthusiast then Henry Ford was one too. Imagine his gas buggies going all by themselves without a hoarse! So were the wright brothers Biplane, Bell's communicator etc
Which one should I buy?
Just don't become like certain others here who, having read the gospel according to Toyota, become evangelical in their quest to have everyone worship HSD, economic realities and individual requirements notwithstanding.
It's been my experience though, that when you take cars with smaller engines that are normally fuel-efficient and economy-minded, once you take them out on the highway and really run 'em good and hard, economy plummets. Throw a few nice, big hills into the equation, and it drops even worse.
I drive Eastex North towards Kingwood to Fall Creek (Beltway 8). After I10 junction it really clears for about 12 miles with only a little slowdown at the 610 junction. Coming and going the speed is always 80-85 (except for rain and wrecks). But when I get to the 527 spur between downtown and greenway it is slow stop and go which would be ideal for a Prius or Insight;)
So half of my drive (12 miles)is very fast, a third (8 miles)about 50-65 and 3-4 miles of stop-n-go.
Drive-on!
MidCow
You don't have to worry about that even a little bit.
I've always said that Hybrids aren't for everyone.
I just caught the rare happening of an Insight refuling. He pulled right behind my HCH at the pumps.
He said he traveled to Pensicola last winter and drove 80-85MPH most of the way and averaged about 72MPG.
Gee I wish Insight was a 5-seater!
Steve & family
CR got high 30s for fuel economy in the Prius in their tests. That is about the worst number I have seen. So if your entire drive is 80-90 mph highway driving, you could probably still count on that figure in Prius. But at that point you could probably do about 95% as well in a Civic sedan. In straight long-distance run, my Matrix XR would get 35 mpg at that speed.
Wouldn't it be nice if Honda put the 6-speed manual in its Accord hybrid? Alas, I think that beauty is reserved for the performance version of the coupe, and therefore can't be allowed into "lowly" sedans!
One thing I would like to see Toyota do is put in simulated driver-selectable gearing, like Audi and others do with their CVTs. You can "paddle shift" (even though you are merely selecting pre-chosen ratios, you are not actually shifting anything). Yes, it would not be the most fuel-efficient way to drive the car, but you could drive some of the time in gas-miser mode, and have a little more fun the rest of the time.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
___I have only had the 5-speed Insight up to 80 mph for about 10 seconds a month or so ago to see where the instantaneous would lye at that high a speed. It wasn’t pretty :-( It was ~ 30 degrees ambient w/ no wind and I saw ~ 37.5 - 42.5 mpg on the instantaneous at 80 mph. This was while speeding on a flat bit of road on I55 in the southbound lanes just past the Des Plaines river here in Illinois
___Backy, the Insight would not achieve the kind of mileage it does with an extra pair of rear seats (however that would be accomplished?). It does receive some wild fuel efficiency extremes as a 2-seater that I would not have thought possible as little as a year ago
___Nippononly, aluminum manufacture energy consumption was an interesting piece of information I wonder how the automobile industry will lighten automobiles of the future with that albatross hanging around their necks? Probably more plastics or composites if they ever do come down in price?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
As for adding two seats to the rear of an Insight, I looked at the Insight at my local auto show, and if anyone can find a way to put any kind of seats in the back of the Insight that can safely and comfortably hold anyone taller than about 2', I'd like to see it.
___Weren’t you the one talking about ripping off the sedan rear end of a Camry and replacing it with a hatchback or similar a few months ago? It isn’t going to happen the same way a Prius will never achieve 100 + mpg like an Insight can Then again, if you want to see a 4 passenger Insight like Hybrid automobile with the economy of 3 to 4 X that of an 04 Prius, this might be something you might be interested in? Its rear seat leg and headroom would be severely lacking but if the price were right well, you know what I mean ;-)
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/03tms_daiufe/
http://www.motortrend.com/autoshows/coverage/112_0310_tokyo/index- 3.html#2
___As for CR’s “A lot of the Prius' appeal is its 44-mpg overall fuel economy and ultraclean emissions” commentary, I wonder what they would say about the following:
“A lot of the 5-Door Focus’ appeal is its 30-mpg overall fuel economy, ultraclean emissions, fastest and most enjoyable PZEV available, and its sub $16,000 price when practically fully loaded”.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
backy: sorry, sorry, I screwed up, that was the review of the HCH I was remembering. Went and looked it up: CR Annual Auto Issue "The gasoline/electric hybrid also performs like a regular Civic, though slower, and averaged 36 mpg in CR tests."
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That Daihatsu concept car is a cute little bugger. Too bad it's 1) a concept car, and 2) I don't know of any Daihatsu dealers within 2000 miles of where I live.
BTW, CR would never say what Wayne stated about the Focus. Why not? Since this is a discussion about hybrids, no one but Wayne probably cares, so unless he can figure it out it will just have to be one of life's little mysteries.
Would plastic cars go "crunch" easier in a wreck compared to aluminium or steel?
Whether a real or perceived saftey issue, I'd still prefer metal.
Steve
___Truth hurts, doesn’t it ;-) As for the UFE-II; you just figured out that it was a Hybrid concept?
___You were speaking of installing 2 more rear seats in an Insight a few posts ago? You were turning a Camry into a hatchback and widening a Focus for more rear seat room a few months ago, right? Have you figured out how you are going to modify the Prius’ hatchback to make it a sedan so you can see out of the rear window a bit better?
___Finally, at least with a Honda Insight, you won’t ever miss a maximum EPA estimate in the worst winter conditions tank after tank after tank. I can only hope your soon to arrive 04 Prius will at least match the EPA combined estimate just once.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I don't know that an all-plastic car is feasible. Some cars are largely aluminum--the A8 comes to mind--and safety on those is not an issue. But they are pricey.
Carbon Fiber composites can be incredibly strong. If I remember correctly, its the Ferrarri Enzo that has a carbon fiber chin spoiler that is capable of suppporting the weight of the entire car.
They should make it available in all 50 states. But perhaps the website is just not updated frequently enough?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
___I just setup a Ford Focus ZX5 Premium from your own zip code and the 2.3 L is included right from the order page? It is the Premium that includes all the amenities and the 2.3 L PZEV HW. When completely setup including the rebates and X-Plan if you have that available to you, it really shines.
Options:
Weather Package including Heated Seats and Heated Side Mirrors, Leather Seating Surfaces, Automatic 4-Speed Transmission, Side Impact Air Bags, Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS)
Std. features (Interior):
Air Conditioning, Driver & Front Passenger Air Bags, AM/FM Stereo Single CD & MP3 Player with Digital Clock & 4-Speakers, Front and Rear Floor Mats, Power Locks, Sport Bucket Front Seats with Adjustable Head Restraints and Passenger Side Single Map Pocket, Manual Driver Front Seat Height Adjuster, Split/Fold-Down Rear Seat with Split Flip-Up Rear Seat Cushion, SecuriLock® Passive Anti-Theft System, Speed Control, Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel, Tilt/Telescoping Steering Wheel, Tachometer, Power Windows with One-Touch Down Driver Window, Rear Window Defroster, and Power Moonroof
Std. features (Exterior):
Fog Lamps, Dual Power Mirrors, Remote Keyless Entry, Solar Tint Glass, 5 MPH Impact Absorbing Bumper, Bodyside Body Color Moldings
Engine and Transmission:
2.3L DOHC I4 Engine
Suspension, Tires, and Wheels:
16" 5-Spoke Alloy Wheels, P205/50R16 All-Season Tires, Rear Stabilizer Bar, Power Rack & Pinion Steering, Independent Front Suspension MacPherson Strut and Control Blade Independent Rear Suspension.
___Here in Chicago, the Ford Focus comes with a free 5 Yr./100,000 mile (I am not sure if it was 100,000 mile or 50,000 mile?) extended warranty, a free Dell Computer, $2,000 cash back, and another $1,000 if you have access to the X-Plan. In your locale (ZIP = 77070 wherever that is?), you actually have available to you $2,500 cash back although I do not know if that includes another $1,000 off on the X-Plan or the included Dell or the included extended warranty?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Actually, the Focus is recommended by CR’s because of its improved reliability the last I heard? Can someone verify either way as I am not a subscriber but read it in the super market like most males would when the wife is shopping and I have to go along ;-)
You can't get stability, keyless entry, xenons, traction control, side curtains, bluetooth. Where's the value???
___First off, keyless entry is std.. The extra value comes about in the fact you cannot get leather, height adjustable, heated seats, 16” Alloys, Independent rear suspension, 5 mph bumpers F&R, Tachometer, CD/MP3 player, color matched body side moldings, F&R mats as std. and an engine that is not only as clean but is much more powerful and is even quieter and free of NVH then that of the 04 Prius. The fact that the whole automobile can be had for $4,500 - $11,000 less plus rides better, handles better, far exceeds the performance of the 04 Prius is another feather in its cap. That is the value It does lose ~ 15 mpg for the average driver however. You can do the math from there.
___Might I suggest a quick read of the latest Ford Focus PZEV reviewed in Autoweek or that of the Ford Focus ZTW PZEV based station wagon in Car and Driver a month or so ago? This PZEV based 2.3 L engine is what makes this Ford a buy against any Hybrid available today. Without it, I wouldn’t touch the Focus!
___Oh hell, since its not another forum, I can post links to articles in Autoweek and Car and Driver, right?
http://autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autoweek&a- mp;cat_code=autofile&content_code=02606361&Search_Type=ST- D&Search_ID=2030627&record=1
http://autoweek.com/search/search_display.mv?port_code=autoweek&a- mp;cat_code=carnews&content_code=05660011&Search_Type=STD- &Search_ID=2030627&record=2
http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=16&article_id=- 7872&page_number=1
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
pocahontas "Ford Focus ZX5" Apr 15, 2001 3:24pm!make=Ford&model=Focus&ed_makeindex=.eec876e
___Good point and nice link Just make sure you are looking at the 03/04 PZEV based Focus’ instead of the much older MY ones as the thread starts back in 2001 Sorry I stepped on your toes in regards to another better overall value imho.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Just a side note. Way back almost 30 years ago CARB mandated that auto manufacturers produce a zero emmisions vehicle by 2004. The manufacturers told CARB they couldn't do it but they might come up with a ICE powered high mileage little vehicle that was very clean. CARB turned them down and insisted they make a zero emission vehicle available to the public. Well the years went buy and everyone from GM to Toyota were working on a pure EV. Toyota had a fleet of Rav4s and GM had their EV-1. Ford had the EV rangers. The time approached and the manufacturers came to CARB and said, surprise, we have a ICE/Electric car that only pollutes a little but still uses gas or diesel. CARB acted like this was a new idea, not the same old one proposed 30 years ago, and said ok that would do till the fuel cell vehicles will be produced. So the manufacturers get their way and the EV is dropped. Yes, in the news paper today even Toyota is dropping production of the Rav4 EVs. At least they are selling them to some of their customers. GM and Ford are taking them back and crushing them. Then the Federal government is offering funding to help make fuel cell cars available in ten years? Do you wonder what will happen when those ten years get a bit closer? It could be a simple as a clean burning renewable fuel in a ICE powered vehicle that gets 80MPG. That was just a rant but that is a possibility.
As for the question of the Forum? A Honda or a Toyota, flip a coin.
___Did Djasonw not say CR doesn’t recommend the Focus anymore and add information on what it is missing in terms of its value? Did Rfruth not ask about a Ford Focus PZEV build in his zip code? If you are interested in information other then from a Hybrid to compare to and its easy to get, I will be more then receptive to add what I can.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___It is really too bad about the EV-1 in particular Not only was it relatively cost effective (not including the purchase price of course), but was a pollution free as the plants that provided the power at the time. If it had just a little bit more range or if my job location(s) had a charging station, I would have been all over it.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
___Someone in another forum pointed me towards the following:
http://www.consumerreports.org/static/0404pic0.html
___The Toyota Prius made it to a “Top pick” category:
“As a sign of how vehicles in general are improving, a number of new models made this year’s list. The Acura TL, Toyota Prius gas/electric hybrid, and Toyota Sienna minivan received major redesigns for 2004, and all topped their categories in our testing.”
___The Ford Focus made it to 2!
“The Ford Focus has always performed well in our testing, and its improved reliability now allows us to recommend it. As a result, the Focus is our Top Pick in two categories: small sedan and fun to drive.”
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___When the EV-1’s were crushed, some of those that had owned them actually gave them a funeral of sorts. The EV groups were up in arms. GM did it so that they could write off the entire project as an expense (loss) in its entirety. I am sure they (some of the engineers working on the project) would have liked to leave a few in the owners hands but those few that would have been able to keep them even if given to them by GM would have caused GM tax complications. Aren’t there still a few out in the publics hands w/ possible lawsuits keeping GM from taking them back? I thought I had read this somewhere anyway? In any case, it is a sad time in the history and evolution of EV’s as the EV-1 (EV-1-Gen2’s or EV-2’s as some called them w/ the more powerful Ni-MH packs) were supposedly good out to something like 120 - 140 miles? I will have to find some of the older EV sites but I thought I had read of one owner w/ the stronger Ni-MH pack pushing one into the 170 mile + range using std. ICE fuel saving like techniques. That is getting very close to ideal for just about everyone for a strict commuter or even more if you ask me
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
re: NVH in Prius and Focus... the Prius definitely is smoother. I've driven both.
___If you ask for Focus data, I will be more then happy to oblige Traction control although not VSC was pulled from the PZEV because they had not integrated it in with the 2.3 L PZEV motor just yet. Maybe next year? I can only hope the Prius adds a more comfortable or even luxurious seating arrangement in its next iteration as well. Currently, it doesn’t have height adjusters, heated options, or even an option for leather although there are some indications that leather covered seating surfaces directly from Toyota themselves is available now? Then again, I don’t know where you live and the lack of heated, height adjustable, leather seats and a telescopic steering wheel may not mean much for $4,500 - $11,000 more?
___As for the safety of VSC, head into a corner a little hot in an 04 Prius and guess what? VSC might bring you back but if you are beyond the limits of the skid pad data on a perfectly clean and flat road like those it was tested on, your toast. The Focus’ higher slalom and skid pad numbers however may allow you to continue without crashing because it wouldn’t have broken loose yet? This is all hypothetical of course. Well maybe not given the Focus exudes much more confidence in the twisties and you are more then likely pushing it much further then in an 04 Prius? I would have to make an assumption that because you can, most will which is really a bad thing for all of our sakes :-(
___NVH in the Prius being better then the Focus PZEV? I have driven both as well and the 1.5 L Prius motor makes an unnatural raucous when accelerating hard.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
BTW, anyone know if Ford is planning a hybrid version of the Focus, following their hybrid debut with the Escape? Using the hybrid technology they have licensed from Toyota?
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/reviews/rt2310.shtml
But push it hard, and the tiny 4-cylinder engine does show a noisy side.
___I haven’t read that the Focus will ever be a Hybrid? Why would anyone want to pay $2,500 - $4,000 more and ruin its performance for maybe 10 - 15 mpg at best? Unless of course it were to make it to 60 in less then 7 seconds instead of ~ 8 and attain the mileage of many Hybrid’s when Hybridized? It still wouldn’t be worth it even with the price of gas what it is today!
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
How do you know a hybrid Focus would cost $2500-$4000 more than a standard Focus? Look at the Prius for example. It has quite a few features standard that the base Focus does not, e.g. ABS/traction control, premium cloth interior and carpeting, video display, steering-wheel controls for stereo and climate control, automatic climate control, alloy wheels, heated side mirrors, rear center armrest, remote keyless entry, and cruise control. Maybe Ford could apply HSD to a basic Focus and come up with an economy hybrid for under $15k that gets 20+ mpg more than the ICE Focus (based on CR's tests of the Focus and Prius). Heck, they might even throw in a seat height adjuster (but I hope they redesign it first).
VSC
Navigation
Xenons
Smart Entry
Steering wheel buttons for A/C, radio etc
larger cargo area
Traction control
at LEAST 40 MPG
Proven Toyota reliability (CR rates the Prius reliability as outstanding, not so for the Ford)
Side curtain airbags
CVT (love that feature)
Electric A/C (hate 4 cyl cars that bog down with A/C on ..not so in the Prius)
Gotta run.. my friends and I are test driving a Mazda 3 soon
Let me know when it's available.
___The 1.5 L Prius motor is louder then the 2.3 L Focus engine when accelerating hard. The Prius however is quieter when coasting and when it is in stealth mode At highway speeds, they sound about the same to me?
___You asked why would a Focus w/ a Hybrid Drivetrain cost $2,500 - $4,000 more? All you have to do is look up the price of a 97 - 04 Prius battery pack to see why. How about the MG Sets and controllers added into the Hybrid’s drivetrain
___What comes std. on the “base” Prius vs. what comes on a “loaded” Focus that costs ~ $4,500 less? Not much. If you are speaking of a “base” Focus, they can be purchased for < $10K! Can you imagine purchasing an 04 Prius without the LCD, Power windows, locks, mirrors, ABS, steering wheel controls, alloy wheels, remote keyless entry, and Cruise for ~ $10,000? If so, I would say that is a great value. Unfortunately, you can’t. Did you really want to compare a “base” Focus that costs less then ½ of that of a base Prius? I am comparing a “loaded” Focus that is still ~ $4,500 less then the “base” Prius and as much as $11,000 less then a Prius when fully loaded.
___And on to the options What does the LCD do for you? Tell you where the power is coming from? Do you think that will help you over the next 150,000 miles. If you are driving like a normal car it won’t other then drag your attention from the road to look over at the center mounted display. We have one in one of our vehicles and it isn’t good for much. Toyota should have placed the one item fuel consumption game gauge in the front so it can be used on a continuous basis. To bad they didn’t.
___Steering wheel controls on the Prius are great! I could only wish the Focus had as many of the steering wheel mounted controls as the Prius does.
___ABS/traction control. ABS is included in the Ford Focus as priced above. Traction control, probably next year :-(
___Premium cloth interior and carpeting? In comparison to a leather equipped interior in the Ford Focus? Some Lexus’ come with a lower cost “option” of cloth interior and most purchasers wouldn’t even consider the thought of downgrading. You would be?
___Alloy wheels? The Focus Premium comes std. with 16” s, not 15’s.
___Heated side mirrors, remote keyless entry, and cruise control. Yes, the Ford Focus comes with them as well. No rear center arm rest however.
___C/D’s observed mpg results:
04 Prius: 42 mpg
04 Focus Wagon: 27 mpg
___And with that, the Focus still out handles, still out accelerates, still has better performance in every performance attribute one can think of other then mpg, has more driver comfort options like heated and height adjustable leather seats and a telescopic wheel, an MP3 player, and now comes with a 5 Yr./50,000 mile bumper to bumper extended warranty, and a Dell PC here near Chicago for at least $4,500 less then the “base” Prius.
___On a similar note, does the 04 Prius not allow heated air to come from the center vents but only the sides?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___To bad the Mazda and Ford contingents don’t come with VSC The Mazda interiors look very nice indeed.
___NAVI, maybe you might want to take a look at a PDA based solution for that instead. NAVI in many lux OEM’s come in at ~ $1,500 - $2,000 extra. Most of the Navtech maps they use are between 1 and 3 years old right off the show room floor and some will not ever be updated. Those that can usually cost > $200 to upgrade and the upgrades are to maps usually 1 to 3 years old again. They are also not available in quarter over quarter, semi-annually, or in some cases, year over year but much more random. I have read that Lexus is doing a bit better job then Acura but they both stink. In the Lexus’, you cannot view the map while driving IIRC I don’t know about the Prius but I it might be the same? Someone else will have to correct me in that regard. The PDA based solution I use in all my automobiles uses the same Navtech maps and has even more POI’s but the maps are currently just a few months old compared to 1 - 3 years old maps that you will be using in an OEM Navtech based solution. I update them ~ every 6 months for less then $100 and that includes a newer program as well. Here is an interesting anecdote. Why not walk into your local Walmart and pick up a Rand McNally Road Atlas from the year 2001. Let’s make it better. Find one from the year 2003? Now why do you think you couldn’t find those particular years? It wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact they are outdated already, could it?
___HID Xenon’s can be added to most vehicles for ~ $350.00. SE/SS is really neat. Larger cargo area? 04 ZX5 = 18.6 cu. ft./04 Prius = 16.1 cu. ft. At least 40 mpg? You seem to forget that 15 - 20 mpg difference costs you ~ $11,000. The way you equipped the Prius anyway? Reliability Doesn’t CR rate the 04 Focus as better then average now? The latest longer bumper to bumper warranty offer looks very nice. Side curtains Very nice indeed. Electric A/C because you hate 4 cylinder cars that bog down? You are already driving one of the slowest 4 cylinder cars on the road! Any PZEV based Focus with its A/C on will still out perform a Prius with its A/C on or not and that even includes being pushed by a 30 mph tail wind.
___I have read of some HCH owners picking up their Hybrid’s in the $18K range if that helps? I don’t know how but it is another outlet instead of a $26,000 + 04 Prius.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Re figures from CR, you might want to recheck those. In their latest two issues, they show the Prius at 44 mpg overall in their tests and the Focus at 24 mpg. That was with the Zetec engine and automatic I believe. I don't think CR has tested a Focus with the 2.3L engine yet. But its EPA rating is almost identical to that of the Zetec. And the Focus is rated just average in reliability, the Prius and HCH much above average.
___I haven’t even heard a rumor that Ford was going to Hybridize the Focus? Have you? What would there be to explain? If the Hybridized car cost more then the fuel cost savings you will receive, why do it? If there was a great performance increase as well as better fuel economy, then you might have something but every Hybridized automobile available to us today is as slow as some of the slowest cars on the road. At least you have gotten over the PZEV Emissions ratings between the two.
Mileage: C/D observed:
04 Prius: 42 mpg
04 Focus Wagon: 27 mpg
http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=7- 701&page_number=4
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=16&article- _id=7872&page_number=2
___This is using the much more powerful, economical, and cleaner 2.3 L Duratec designed PZEV based engine, not the older Zetec designed one.
___At least you have finally recognized what the value champ really is? Have you considered the HCH as an alternative? If you wait long enough, the Hybrid Accord will be available but I can bet it will be pushing $30K and at that cost, it won’t match the value of the LX based Accord imho.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Recall I had asked if anyone had heard of plans to hybridize the Focus. It was my (unsuccessful) attempt to steer back to the topic of this board. I will give up now, go do my chores on this lovely day and let others talk about what type of hybrid they would buy... PLEASE!
As for "value champs"... I have my opinion of what the value champ is of the 5-door hatchback class, and it ain't the Focus, nor is it the Prius. 'nuff said about that, on this board anyway.
Honda didn't have a clue about the hybrid Accord.
Miles per gallon and "grren" cars was not the overwhelming falvor of the show.
The Lexus concept HPX was awesome with crystal LED lights.
The best cars were the Saleenes, although not necessarily Hybrids, good mileage or "green". But the hal a millon dollar S7 is a beauty to behold.
New Scions are a possibility. A little cheap inside, but lots of standard features at a less than $17K fully loaded.
Performance was in!
Ford had soime concept cars: new Mustang GT roped off, GT40 on a platform. Dodn't see any Hybrid.
Good show lots of cars, 660. Probably 15-20 future cars and concept cars.
___31/36 city/hwy for the RXh400 is something special. It beats what has been posted about the Highlander hybrid at 27.x something combined by quite a margin! Ford or Honda didn’t even mention the Escape or Accord Hybrid? I sure wish I knew what was up with those two
___Djasonw, I am glad you liked the Mazda contingent. I love the interiors but the prices scare me off as well
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes