What type of hybrid should I buy?

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    The connotation that goes along with hybrid is saving the planet. We have shown many times that the manufacturing of a hybrid is much more polluting than a conventional ICE.

    I've seen a graph that compares emissions during manufacture and operation of an average ICE car to that of the Prius. I haven't seen figures comparing ICE cars in general to hybrids in general.

    Hybrid powertrains are a technology, like manual transmissions. Putting your statement into this context is like saying, "The connotation of a manual transmission is greater fuel economy, not to make the car more fun to drive and getting quicker acceleration. You should only buy a car with a manual transmission if it offers greater fuel economy than cars with automatic transmissions."

    Every hybrid for sale today gets greater fuel economy than its closest ICE counterpart. People who buy these hybrids save gas. What's the problem?
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Remember, the biggest complaint about the Prius is the MPG people are getting in real world driving situation. I believe the EPA rating is 50/60 highway/city or 55 mpg average combined. But most people are getting somewhere in the neighborhood of mid 40s mpg. While that is certainly respectable, it is also 10 mpg less than the EPA figure. One can conclude based on the Prius that the hybrid Lexus SUV might not get the same MPG as Lexus is advertising. If everybody starts to drive powerful hybrid cars thinking that they can have power and efficiency both at the same time then they are being somewhat mislead by auto companies.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    We'll have some data pretty soon on the "power and performance" angle, as drivers get experience with the brand-new HAH. It will be some time before we see how well the RX400h delivers on fuel economy. I think what we'll see is typical of current behavior: drivers who drive with a lead foot will see poor fuel economy numbers. Those who drive with the goal of maximizing fuel economy, and use the extra power only when needed, will see good overall fuel economy numbers, at or above EPA estimates, just like many owners of Insights, HCHs, and Priuses do today.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Every hybrid for sale today gets greater fuel economy than its closest ICE counterpart. People who buy these hybrids save gas. What's the problem?

    That is not so. The Escape is not close to the 33 combined mileage it is rated for. I have not seen anyone with as many miles as the Edmund's Escape and they are at 25.5 combined. The 4 cylinder Escape gets 26 combined. Everyone knows the Prius is at least 15% below the EPA estimates. The Insight and HCH are the only ones in the ballpark.

    The added impact on the environment in the manufacturing of a hybrid is a fact. Without a significant increase in fuel economy and much lower emissions, the benefit to the environment is lost. In my mind cars like the Escape and Accord hybrid will never be as clean as their ICE counterparts. Their slight gain in mileage and emissions will not overcome the much higher amounts of SOx, NOx, CO2 & PM created during their manufacturing process.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    My comment was relative to EPA numbers. I don't think it's fair to take one instance, Edumunds' one-year test that just started, and extrapolate it to all cars on the road. On top of that, you compared Edmunds' short-term experience with the EPA number for the standard 4-cylinder Escape. And we know that the performance of the Escape hybrid is closer to that of the V6 than the 4-cylinder. What is the average mpg of V6 Escapes in the real world?

    As for the Prius, even in the mid-40s it gets about 20 mpg more than the average automatic mid-sized sedan (compare for example CR's test of 44 with the Prius vs. mid-20s of other midsized sedans it has tested).

    What is the closest ICE car to the Insight? Recall that I was comparing hybrid cars to their closest ICE counterpart.

    The Escape hybrid is a PZEV-emissions vehicle. Do you have some data comparing the lifetime emissions of the Escape hybrid to the V6 Escape, which is the closest ICE counterpart to the hybrid?

    Anyway, I thought this discussion was all about discussing which hybrid is the best fit for someone's needs--not arguing (again) about the suitability of hybrid technology in general.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    You are right. We have gotten off topic. Since hybrids main purpose is to save gasoline (IMO) I think the Prius and HCH should fit the bill for most prospective buyers, although judging by your posts you like the HAH, right?
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,151
    The amount of SOx, NOx & PM created generated during manufacturing is probably dawfed by that of a diasel alternative in its service life.

    The upcoming SUV hybrid applications actually offers a simplified AWD system, obviating the need for mechanical drive shafts and transfer cases to the rear. So the incremental manufacturing cost will be drasticly reduced when a hybrid is compared to an ICE AWD.

    The logic behind hybrid SUV is quite simple:
    Replacing a 30mpg tin can with a 40mpg hybrid saves 100 gallons over 12k miles; replacing an 18mpg SUV with a 25mpg hybrid saves 187 gallons over 12k miles, at 30mpg saves 267 gallons, and a 35mpg hybrid would save 324 gallons!

    As to why SUV owners have to own SUVs to begin with, that's an entirely different topic, and those who are not commuting on two wheels or a pair of sneakers probably should not cast the first stone. For what it's worth, I telecommute, 30 paces from my bedroom to my office, in slipers, so I am holier than thou :-)
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    "For what it's worth, I telecommute, 30 paces from my bedroom to my office, in slipers, so I am holier than thou :-) "

    That would be the best solution. Can you imagine how much gas can be saved if everybody could work from home ? I am sure we might have to come to that in the not so distant future.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,151
    > Since hybrids main purpose is to save gasoline (IMO)

    And the main purpose of cars is for rich guys to race horses on weekends :-)

    Although the first commercial hybrid application was marketted as fuel mizers, hybrid technology was first used in car races until it was banned because it gave the haves "an unfair advantage" over the have-nots. The whole situaiton is a bit like Honda's VTEC a decade ago; first introduced commercially as a fuel saver (VTEC-E Civics) after racing sucess, before high performance VTEC engines tuned for power really catching the imagination of consumers. The later VTEC-E powered Civic HX never sold nearly as well as high performance Integras and RSX's despite being gobs cheaper.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    You are right. We have gotten off topic. Since hybrids main purpose is to save gasoline (IMO) I think the Prius and HCH should fit the bill for most prospective buyers

    I agree with your choices and would add the Insight as the best solo or two person commuter available in the USA.

    I would argue with the assertion that the hybrid will cause less pollution in the manufacture of AWD. It is the electric motors and batteries that increase the manufacturing emissions. So far the only Life Cycle Assessment I have found came from Toyota for the New Prius. It clearly shows that airborne pollutants created during the manufacturing process of the hybrid to be much higher than the equivalent ICE car. That imbalance will not be in favor of the Prius until they both have been driven close to 100k miles. My conclusion is that the imbalance of the LCA for a car like a RX400h or HAH, could be considerably more than 100k miles. I believe that is much of the holdup with Toyota and the other automakers. Diminishing returns both financially and ecologically.

    All regulators at EPA & CARB are worried about is the emissions on the finished product. Most of the manufacturing pollution is dumped in another country. Try to build that Prius in CA from raw materials. I'll bet it would never happen.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,151
    Okay, perhaps I did not make myself clear. I did NOT say that the substitution of mechanical AWD with electrical ones in hybrids will necessarily make the overall manufacturing envoronmental cost less than that of an ICE car. I said/meant that the (percentage) incremental cost is less because now instead of having nothing to offset the battery etc. there are the drive shafts and transfercases taken out of the vehicle to offset some of the cost of batteries and electrical motors.

    As to LCA (life-time cycle assessment), I think the break-even time/mileage horizon will be much shorter on big heavy hybrids like the RX400H than on light showcase vehicles, due to simple math:
    The battery and motors in RX400H is only roughly 50% heavier than that of the Prius; to off set that:
    replacing a Camry/Corolla with a Prius bumps gas mileage from 30mpg to 40 mpg, saving 100 gallons over a 12k mile year. Replacing a RX330 with an RX400H bumps 18mpg to 30-35mpg, that's anywhere between 270-324 gallons over the same 12k mile year; even at 25mpg, there is a saving of close to 200 gallons.
    So you have the simple math of 200-300% incremental savings in gas to offset 50% or less incremental manufacturing cost. Notice, it's the gallon count that matters not per centage increase in MPG per se.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    I would not buy a HAH because it's not a fit for my needs. But for people who want a mid-sized sedan with exceptional performance but also sips less gas than cars of comparable size and power, the HAH is the only option right now. I might wonder why someone would need to buy a car that powerful, but it's not for me to judge them.

    And I too have a 30-odd step commute to work. When I go into the office, I try to take the bus whenever possible. My car is going to sue me for abandoning it!
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    So you have the simple math of 200-300% incremental savings in gas to offset 50% or less incremental manufacturing cost. Notice, it's the gallon count that matters not per centage increase in MPG per se.

    That seems logical. I wonder if Toyota will publish any kind of LCA on the RX400h as they did on some of their other vehicles. Following that train of thought. The person that buys an Accord V6 and drives 50k miles in 5 years would produce less overall pollution than the person that buys an Accord hybrid and drives 100k miles in the same 5 years.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    Following that train of thought, the person that buys an Accord V6 and drives 1k miles in five years would produce less overall pollution than the person who buys an Accord V6 and drives 50k miles in the same five years. I fail to see your point, or how it relates to which type of hybrid to buy.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,151
    Absolutely. Economizing driving habit is every bit as important as economizing vehicle choice when it comes to overall gas consumption. If one can find 50% reduction in miles driven, pursueing that end probably saves more gas than trying any viable vehicle alternative out there; it's highly doubtful vehicles that consume 100% more gas but offer no addtional funcationality whatsoever (to the owner, not to the green-eyed by-stander) can possibly stay on the market in the long run. It would not surprise me if the majority of vehicles on the market become some sort of hybrid in the next decade or two, like the carberretor to EFI change-over two decades ago.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    It is a continuation of the debate. I say the HAH is not an environmentally sound choice, where the smaller hybrids such as Insight, Prius and HCH are. If the amount of fuel burnt over the life of the vehicle will determine if it is ecologically beneficial, it was put forth that the bigger the hybrid the quicker it will regain that which was lost in the manufacturing process.

    That brings me to the last post. If you are a high mileage driver the hybrid is a logical choice over a comparable vehicle. If you do not put a lot of miles on a car in it's life cycle you may be polluting more with a hybrid than a conventional vehicle.

    The way I see this hybrid choice. If you drive a lot our planet is better off if you drive one of the smaller hybrids than the larger ones. If you walk to work and put less than 10k miles per year on your car you are not helping the environment or your pocket book by getting a hybrid.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,151
    I say the HAH is not an environmentally sound choice, where the smaller hybrids such as Insight, Prius and HCH are.

    I say Insight, Prius and HCH are not environmentally sound choices, where the bicycle and sneakers are. Not everyone's transportational requirement can be met with Prius, HCH, and certainly not Insight.

    If you do not put a lot of miles on a car in it's life cycle you may be polluting more with a hybrid than a conventional vehicle.

    The threshold must be extreme because the batteries will in all likelihood be recycled. NiMH is not exactly cheap; even dirt cheap lead acid batteries are recycled.

    The way I see this hybrid choice. If you drive a lot our planet is better off if you drive one of the smaller hybrids than the larger ones. If you walk to work and put less than 10k miles per year on your car you are not helping the environment or your pocket book by getting a hybrid.

    What if it is one of the most common type of vehicle ownership in America: the car that has to do everything? Do the distance and carry the load, sometimes at the same time but often at different times? As we know, owning two additional small cars just for commute is incredibly wasteful when manufacturing cost is factored in. People are no dummies; most people would not get large vehicles if a smaller one would suffice in their own estimation, even SUV owners (that's why Suburbans only constitute a small minority even among SUVs). Given a vehicle size, hybrid is a great way of economizing gas consumption without giving up utility or performance (so we are promised :-) Besides, helping the environment is not the only reason for getting hybrid, although it's a nice side effect; just like VTEC and EFI, both help the environment and deliver performance in spades.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    gagrice: "That brings me to the last post. If you are a high mileage driver the hybrid is a logical choice over a comparable vehicle. If you do not put a lot of miles on a car in it's life cycle you may be polluting more with a hybrid than a conventional vehicle."

    Just because you only drive a hybrid for a fraction of its expected life doesn't mean the clock stops on savings when you sell it.

    In most cases the life-span of vehicles these days is measured in total miles, not years, and there's no indication that hybrids will have a shorter life-span than their non-hybrid counterparts.

    Most cars, hybrid or not, will run for their average life-span even if they are driven by multiple people along the way.

    If a Hybrid has a lower environmental footprint from a Life-Cycle standpoint compared to an alternative vehicle, that benefit will accrue to the world whether you drive it or some future used car buyer drives it.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___Escape HEV’s in the real world …

    http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/table.php?cat=escape

    ___Brightness04, telecommuting and those 30 steps to your work station to save the environment is a great idea except for the fact it takes a China or India based citizen the same 30 steps to his workstation to replace your job and for ~ 1/10 of your wage … Just some food for thought.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    a "larger car" than the Prius and the HCH, and you are in the market for a 4dr sedan in the Accord's price and feature range.

    The fact that the HAH gets 29%-42% more MPG than a comparable Accord V6 is just gravy.

    Don't buy the HAH if you are looking to get 45 MPG out of a car - it's not THAT kind of Hybrid.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
      Wayne not a big fan of the Accord hybrid, say it ain't so !
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Rfruth:

    ___Damn, you have me all figured out :-D

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    posts about telecommuting isn't on-topic for "What type of hybrid should I buy" and have been deleted.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Consider buying a hybrid? Reconsider after you learned about the long wait? Whether or not you chose to add your name to the waiting list, a reporter is hoping to hear your perspective. Please respond to [email protected] with your daytime contact info by May 27, 2005.
    Thanks,
    Jeannine Fallon
    Corporate Communications
    Edmunds.com
  • markdelmarkdel Member Posts: 56
    After checking the ODI (office of defects investigations) on NHTS it becomes evident that the HCH received by far the fewest complaints...
  • markdelmarkdel Member Posts: 56
    However, looking back on the other posts again, it is apparent that since I did not end my post by "____Good Luck", it probably does not mean anything. :P
  • mbrady1mbrady1 Member Posts: 13
    I hope I'm not repeating an earlier question, but for the small SUV choices, I'm stumped as to which one is the better value. I don't need to tow anything so the small towing capacity of the Escape is moot. I've never owned a diesel so I'm concerned about the mess, etc. Does anyone have any insight or opinion as which model is superior.
    Thanks
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Definitely stay away from the Liberty Diesel. Look at the thread and it appears there are tons of problems. I too was interested in that truck until I read some reports from the car magazines. It is noisey, lots of vibrations, and yes dirty. If you need a small SUV but don't go off road too much a great small SUV would be the Hyundai Tuscon. It is reasonably priced (much less than the FEH) and has good performance AND it has stability control and ABS.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    Value in what way? Based on pure economics it might be hard to justify either one, compared to an ICE-only small SUV with good fuel economy (which start at about $16k nicely equipped). Take a look at the current Car & Driver. They were none too complimentary on the clatter from the Liberty's diesel. OTOH, you won't be facing a battery replacement at some time in the future (if you keep the car long enough) with the Liberty. In city driving, the Escape should do better than the Liberty in fuel economy, but on the highway it's more even.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    I'd stay away from the Escape Hybrid for a couple of years until Ford works out all the kinks.

    I can recommend the CR-V if the vehicle fits your style (drive one and you'll know). It gets about 22 in town and 27 highway, with lots of standard safety features.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Quote Stevedebi-"I'd stay away from the Escape Hybrid for a couple of years until Ford works out all the kinks."-end quote

    I think that is AWFUL advice to give someone. If we ALL did that, we'd still be driving Horse and Buggy or the Model T !! No car company would continue making new models if no one bought one for two years - and how would the "kinks" get worked out if not out in the Real World ??? ;)

    Be an early adopter, help promote the technology, and buy a warranty or car insurance that includes Rental Car coverage for when your car is in the shop......
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    "Be an early adopter, help promote the technology, and buy a warranty or car insurance that includes Rental Car coverage for when your car is in the shop......"

    I stand by my statement. If you prefer to be an "early adoptor", feel free. I say this about a Ford product; I would have little problems with a first year model from Honda, for example.

    Warranties don't reimburse me for the cost of my time if the vehicle has to go back and forth to the shop, or for time spent on the freeway during a breakdown. Or for the frustration levels. The Ford drivetrain is unproven, in my opinion. How would you feel if you were one of the "early adopters" of the Saturn Vue CVT?

    It is up to the reader to decide if he/she wishes to embark into the unknown...
  • slickwillslickwill Member Posts: 15
    Any new car be it hybrid or conventional always has problems the first two years of production. Enough people who always want the newest and the best will buy the early ones and they eventually fix the problems. Be smart and wait. It is the companies responsibility to prove to the buyers their product is worth buying.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I've bought new model year cars in the past without any problems. However, new models sometimes do have teething problems.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesMember Posts: 18,946
    You mean like those redesigned small SUVs that had a major problem with oil filters, causing fires? Which SUVs were those, again?
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Are you referring to the CRV? I heard about that.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Let's think about this one for a second guys and gals:

    If everyone was "smart" and waited two years to buy a newly developed car, what would be the REAL result?

    What would happen is that the car makers would realize this, and make only about 20 cars in year one, since they knew NO ONE would buy one. So all these "test drive only" cars would be sitting at dealer lots, right? They would get driven maybe 5,000 miles in two years.

    Would that REALLY be enough to work out all the supposed "first two years kinks" and get the engineers enough knowledge and road testing to know about and solve all the possible design problems?

    I don't think so. Waiting two years is not "smart" but is merely "unfounded old school paranoia."
  • otis1otis1 Member Posts: 142
    Waiting two years is not "smart" but is merely "unfounded old school paranoia."

    YES! I agree 100%. ALL cars have "issues" regardless if its the first year of a particular model or the 3rd year. Beleive me there's no way a auto manufacturer can identify a problem, develop a solution, and have it implemented in 1 year. Let's take an imaginary scenario- lets say its 1999 and honda rolls out a newly developed minivan. Suddenly in 2000, a few reports come in about some cars having transmission problems. Is it a problem or a freak statistical anomoly? hmmm lets look into it some more. then it's 2001, and even more transmission problems are reported. By now the population is large enough to see that the transmission is more than a statistical fluke. Time to further investigate and develop a solution. now it's 2002 and we have a solution, BUT the tooling for the 2002 is already in place and the changes can't go into effect until the 2003 model year. (remember the previous generation mustang? that platform was like 20 years old. By this myth, the mustang should have been perfect)

    Auto manufacturers always have a few "refinements" every couple of years on a model cycle- but this has more to do with marketing than it does engineering. Certainly "simple" glitches may be fixed in a very short time frame- but these are usually things, that while I don't like, I can live with.

    Some problems don't show up until 4 or 5 years. How is buying the 3rd year going to magically erase these "hidden" issues? stevedebi should have rephrased his original statement to: "I'd stay away from the Escape Hybrid because Ford does not have a proven track record of quality control as other manufacturers do" (he did later clarify his point to this effect)

    Now to get back on track- If you want 'new' and you want 'hybrid' consider the HH. It doesn't cost that much more and I think you get more for your money. if you want strict economy, get a used CRV.
  • slickwillslickwill Member Posts: 15
    No offense but your thinking is not realistic at all. You are creating a fictional scenario that can't exist. Bottom line is people will buy anything. Look at the EV1, look at the YUGO. That thing was the biggest piece from day one. People could have bought a dependable used car but they bought a YUGO?

    Your scenerio will never exist. If Hydrogen cars came out next year would I buy one? not a chance. I waited 5 years to buy a hybrid.
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    All in all it comes down to some of "US" being the first ones to take the plunge. BUT......Not without some serious homework B/4 one buys. I did this with my Prius 2 yrs ago. I also took 2 test drives that answered just about all my questions. The really big problem with the Prius was the *"total radical mind blowing initial starting system", that the Prius had. This took a bit of getting used to and tended to be a bit of a bewilderment at first. I compared the Honda Civic Hybrid with the Prius and it was a "NO BRAINER". The Prius was roomier, more popular with Car & Driver,Motor Trend and the like, and finally it was more peppy and stylish. Nuff said.
    Railroadjames(Why aren't there Senior Discounts @ Car Dealerships?)(They've tried everything else!) :confuse:

    P.S. *This unique starting system has got to be a pretty good theft deterent. Don't you think? ALSO ...For those that think Hybrids are new to the scene...NOT...Toyota has been building them for over 11 yrs. Get It?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    SlickWill - Exactly my point - I painted a scenario that the "wait two years" people would cause to happen if we all "waited two years."

    THAT scenario is the unrealistic one. My point exactly, which leads to my major point:

    Don't wait to buy a hybrid because it's NEW - that's a faulty position to take.
  • otis1otis1 Member Posts: 142
    Bottom line is people will buy anything.

    Yeah, look at you- you bought a prius :P

    I'm just kidding- I'm not bashing you or the prius- i actually really like the prius. But what's an appropriate amount of time to wait? if 5 years is better than 2 years- does this mean 10 years is better than 5 as well? by your logic, you should have waited another 5 years to see if there was any truth to this "battery issue." I'd say if you like what you see, the price is right, you've done your homework, and you think the company has a proven track record rolling out new technology, then go for it. Waiting 1, 2, or 10 years wont hedge your bet in terms of reliability.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    Buying a car is 1/3 intellect and 2/3 emotion. That's why people still buy cars in their first model year.
  • slickwillslickwill Member Posts: 15
    Hey guys, sorry , I guess I didn't make myself clear. I think there are two things that are getting confused. With a conventional car that has been completely redesigned for a new year, the first year always brings some unexpected problems. Minor things usually. So it is best to wait a year or two until those bugs are worked out. I am not saying longer is better, but just let them fix the problems. Not a big deal. So if you want the newest thing then buy the car, many people do, there is nothing wrong with that.

    OK, now new technology. I am a conservative guy. When I first heard about Hybrid technology I realized how brilliant it was. Obviously electric wasn't going to work until there was a breakthrough in battery technology. When new technology comes out, the large car companies don't expect to sell a large number of them, they have other agendas. They will subsidize all the testing and put the cars through its paces. Do you really think they let the public find all the problems? Some people will buy the new technology, just like they bought the EV1. People will buy the car when it is ready, just like Prius is ready and Civic is ready. Look at the sales.

    You can't tell the public "buy new technology", and expect them to do it. Some people will buy it early, some people will buy it later. When the car is ready, that is when I will buy it, and most of America agrees with me. Look at the sales.

    I will tell you what, when that first hydrogen car rolls off the assembly line, you run and buy it, support them all you want. I don't have the money to blow on a hunk of @#$@%&.
  • slickwillslickwill Member Posts: 15
    "SlickWill - Exactly my point - I painted a scenario that the "wait two years" people would cause to happen if we all "waited two years."

    larsb - THAT scenario is the unrealistic one. My point exactly, which leads to my major point:

    larsb - Don't wait to buy a hybrid because it's NEW - that's a faulty position to take."

    Do you realize how that sounds? You don't understand what I mean by an unrealistic scenario? What I mean is a scenario that is not within the realm of possibility. You are the one that came up with the scenario saying that this could happen, now you agree with me that it is not possible? Think about what you are saying before you say it.

    I never said don't buy a hybrid because it's new. I say wait to buy new technology until it is ready. That is a free economy, sellers have to prove their products to us.
  • slickwillslickwill Member Posts: 15
    "Buying a car is 1/3 intellect and 2/3 emotion. That's why people still buy cars in their first model year. "

    well put mirth. exactly.
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    I almosty agree with your assessment 1/3 intellect & 2/3 emotion....BUT...I would figure it more like this....1/3 emotion ...1/3 intellect...and 1/3 budget. Nuff Said.

    P.S. I couldn't afford my 1st (used) Corvette till I was in my 40's. It had special meaning cuzz I did alot of dreaming of the day when I'd be in the driver's seat.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I think we are just debating semantics now, but the scenario I proposed was what would happen if the "wait two years until the kinks are worked out before buying a new car model" people GOT WHAT THEY WANTED.

    It's NOT what I want.....The "unrealistic scenario" was the one which I pointed out to THEM is what would happen if they got their way.....It was not "me" presenting an unrealistic scenario which I then agreed with - not at all.

    I pointed out that the ridiculous "wait until a car has been on the road two years before buying it" crowd is doing a disservice to us all, and how, if they got their way, things would THEN become unrealistic.

    Does everyone else understand what I was doing? ;)

    As far as the SlickWill's statement "I never said don't buy a hybrid because it's new. I say wait to buy new technology until it is ready." -

    To that I say, "when it reaches the car lot it is REAL WORLD ROAD ready." If not, the carmaker would not put it on the road. Any new car is driven hundreds of thousands of miles in the R&D phase, and put through tremendous testing phases. That does not mean that they are PERFECT when they hit the showroom floor for the first time, but car makers do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to make sure the car is safe, reliable, and road tested before Joe Consumer ever test drives it......The Hybrid technology in cars on the road today is all at least second generation stuff which has been on the road for millions of miles by now....The first Prius cars were tested on the road in Japan about 1994, and developed earlier than that....

    This technology is NOT new by any stretch, unless you are comparing it to the lifetime of the Earth or something !! ;)
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    BUT...I would figure it more like this....1/3 emotion ...1/3 intellect...and 1/3 budget. Nuff Said.

    Given the increasing number of people who are upside-down on their rides, and are financing for 84 (+) months, I'd say budgets are getting thrown right outside the window, lol.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    "You mean like those redesigned small SUVs that had a major problem with oil filters, causing fires? Which SUVs were those, again?"

    Since your are uninformed on the 2nd Generation CR-V, I will enlighten you.

    There was nothing wrong with the 2nd Gen CR-V. In the second year of that model, someone changed the manufacturor of the oil filter gaskets. These gaskets stuck to the engine block pretty easily. If the oil change was done correctly by the dealer (the service rep has to visually check for the filter gasket coming off with the filter), there was no problem. If the service rep didn't check, it was possible to have the new filter double gasketed, causing an oil leak and possible fire.

    However, it wasn't the 2nd gen, it was the filter. It is a little known fact that many newer model cars put the catalytic converter as close as possible to the engine to increase the heat. Hence the possibility of having oil leak onto hot parts.

    I hope this clarifies the situation for you. I can't imagine where you got the idea it was a 2nd generation CR-V problem.

    I'm on my 5th oil change without problems. But then I have a really good dealer service department.

    Sorry to get a bit off of the topic, but I hate having bad facts just left standing there in a forum.

    I should also note that the NHTSB has no reports of CR-Vs stalling at highway speeds.
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