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What type of hybrid should I buy?
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Comments
I had no problem getting on the highway, the Prius got up to speed without any problems. I got home and was not as tired as when I made the same trip in a Maxima. Went to lunch with 5 adults in the car, no one felt that the car was small or that they did not have enough room.
Felt the side winds today is the only complaint that I had.
I was quite impressed with the Prius; it's much bigger than I thought it would be. Fairly comfortable and functional. Seemed kind of in between the true midsize sedans (Accord, Camry, etc.) and the larger compacts (Mazda 3, Corolla).
As midnightcowboy mentioned, the Lexus 400h was roped off, and Honda was clueless about hybrids. "Uhh, I think we make a Civic with one of those battery things in it." Gee, thanks.
Ford had a mention of the Escape hybrid, but all the attention at Ford was on the Mustang GT and the GT40 and nobody around there had anything to say about the Escape.
Oh, and a side comment to djasonw: Yes, the Mazda 3 and the Volvo S40 are based on the same platform. Other than the bigger 5-cyl Volvo engine, I can't figure out why the Volvo is a full $10K more than the Mazda. Volvo and Mazda were right next to each other at this show and I went back and forth a couple times and I really, really don't get it. Oh, well, the Volvo probably has VSC, it being a Volvo and all. Not sure one extra cylinder and VSC together adds up to 10K. Also, the interior ergonomics on the control console (radio/climate) in the Volvo is AWFUL. Totally senseless.
Pricing on the Mazda 3 is really a function of the amount of stuff you get on it. You can get a base 3i sedan with A/C & ABS for $16.5K sticker, and I have found Mazda dealers more willing to go below sticker than Toyota or Honda dealers. That's not so bad.
Now, that would be a great car to get a hybrid in it! My wife has her heart set on an '06 hybrid Highlander, though...
Futura (currently being renamed) is Ford's next planned hybrid, if memory serves. And they might hybridize the 500 too, although that is much more speculation than anything else. All of Ford's hybrid plans have been on hold for so long while they finished the Escape, who knows what they really are today.
I will bet the HL hybrid and RX400H will have the same EPA figures - HL is a little taller, yes, but they will have identical powertrains! Maybe a point or two lower to account for the extra wind resistance in the HL.
Eight months into the launch, there is still a six month waiting list for Prius (there was a little consumer piece on it on the news tonight, and that was mentioned)...there must be something about these durn hybrids that appeals to the consumer! :-)
HCH, on the other hand, is in plentiful supply. When CR gets about the same mileage in the hybrid as in the regular version, I can understand why. I do wonder what the mileage figures will be for the Accord hybrid in the fall.
Too bad Honda quit making Insight. I wonder what the next production gas car (not diesel) will be that gets high-60s mpg.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hybrid technology has far more promise since it does not depend on future science miracles to produce a practical vehicle that approaches economic reason. Its energy storage requirements are much less and shorter term and can be accommodated by the modest storage technologies presently available, albeit with some cost premium vis a vis conventional vehicles. It remains to be seen whether fuel cell vehicles will fare better than battery EVs, since they are also dependent on future science, not just in fuel cells but more daunting, a practical means to produce hydrogen in large quantities.
For now, If I were a betting man, I'd bet on hybrids.
Also show how performance declines between full-charge and minimal charge.
Very interesting how much the Prius drops ; don't have magazine with me but it seems like it went from 0-60 in 10.2 to 14.8
Just be awre that when you accelrate in the Prius the electric motor (MG2) derives most of its power from the batteries and they will discharge even though the MG1 is still acting a a genrator anfd providing some power to MG2 and some power to the battery.
As for now? I would have to wait and see if the new hybrids deliver the performance numbers they are promising on the drawing boards. The current ones are both too close to make a difference to me. If I wanted a Hybrid simply to have a hybrid I could toss a coin. Honda is heads Toyota is tails. Both get better fuel mileage than what I now have. Not several thousand dollars worth to justify the mileage difference but better anyway. Neither perform as well as any car I now own nor do they climb the mountain road to my house at a pace I am used to. So to me the only hope is the future and I have to see it before I'll buy it.
The disappointing thing is the giving up on EVs in my opinion for what everyone knows is an interim motivation source. They want fuel cells in the worst way and if indeed they are successful hybrids will be simply a foot note in automotive history. But when fuel cells arrive will we be offered another slow moving vehicle that corners like a UPS truck? I think the reasoning will be that the consumers fell for it once so it is worth another try.
As for me I would pull for synthetic fuel and a simplified light weight vehicle. We could be free from foreign oil and we wouldn't all have to learn to drive like old people. Even when we are old people. *S*
You know that I favor smaller, lighter, more efficient cars and wish that the market would embrace that concept. But a smaller, ligther hybrid still has the potential to be more efficient than a similar ICE-only vehicle, whatever thermal cycle is used for the ICE. The only unanswered question is whether the hybrid will achieve economic viability (performance issues are a matter of design objectives). I don't share your disappointment in the "giving up" on EV's, I think that it is way overdue as reflection on the article that I mentioned and the dismal lack of EV progress suggests.
Turns out it's the same old nonsense. The topic is disregarded entirely, instead just repeating posts of what had already been stated several times already along with some incorrect info and some personal slander.
In short, there is no benefit... though non-constructive messages do prove there is a geniune fear of change.
I'll be hanging where the productive crowd is, those that work toward the future where there will be a hybrids offering a variety of sizes & configurations.
JOHN
___I have never heard that the Mazda 3 2.3 L was PZEV either? I looked on Mazda’s site and it isn’t spec’ed that way from what I read With an 8/10 on the EPA’s Green Vehicle Guide, the 2.3 L in one is meeting ULEV-II specs but it is not an SULEV so it cannot be a PZEV. Some versions of the 2.0 might be in California but I doubt it w/ an 8/10 outside of that area using higher sulfur fuels? The 2.3 in particular is one very powerful SVT’ized 2.3 and it supposedly handles like a sled on rails ;-)
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-MAZDA-Mazda3-04.htm
___I still love the Mazda interiors the best of all however :-( The 2.0 is going into the Ford in 05 as its PZEV so you can expect a drop in performance (144 to 136 HP) but with an increase in fuel economy
___Hi John1701a and welcome back. I noticed something peculiar the other day. Maybe you can give us some more detail since you mentioned you were not going to come around again? While you are looking it over, you may want to take notice of the various ranges driven as well
http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-data09.htm = 45.8 mpg over 9,887 miles from 10/23/03 - 03/31/04.
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/details.php?cid=164 = 42.4 mpg over 11,363 miles from 09/15/03 - 03/29/04.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I already did (see: non-broken-in, cold-weather-only, winter-formula-gas).
No need to repeat the same post again.
Goodbye.
JOHN
___Sounds like both automobiles are ~ in the same boat to me as well :-(
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
If the 04 prius actually got between 52 and 60 mpg like the EPA claimed, i'd be impressed. When the 04 prius was first announced, I was impressed. I even tried to defend it as being economical in comparison to certain vehicles. But when real world mpg isn't much better than some conventional vehicles, i'm quite dissapointed. Getting an extra 5 mpg for $6000 extra up front is a sham.
If you're an environmentalist, save the $6000 and put it toward a more efficient furnace in your home, more insulation, or solar cells.
kpoeppel
And over 600 miles cruising range.
As for the Civic HX, if a compact coupe meets your needs, you can't do much better than a Civic HX. But the Prius is quite a bit roomier and has a lot more versatility than the Civic coupe. It would be more fair to compare the HX coupe to the HCH, in which case I agree it's hard to justify the extra expense of the HCH.
FWIW, I've seen real-world fuel economy reports from Prius owners in the upper 40s to low 50s.
MPG should be low 30's.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=568&e=3&a- mp;a- mp;u=/nm/autos_hybrids_dc
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"However the net horsepower is only 110 hp instead of 143 hp due to conversion losses and due to spinning the MG1 as a generator."
Wrong. You assumed that ICE maximum 76hp and electric motor maximum 67hp meets at the same time to get 143hp. MG1 RPM behaves as a CVT between ICE:MG2 RPM ratio to merge the two max hp closer together. I do not believe they actually meet though.
There will be a loss during conversion but the torque gained from the conversion during low speed will offset that. By looking at the results, the conversion is beneficial because Prius weights 2,900 lbs and it gets extremely high mpg in the city.
"Anyway, the 67 hp of MG2 (50kw) can not possibly be supplied by the MG1 ( 10kw or 13.4 hp)primarily. The bulk of the MG2 power input has to come from the Prius battery."
You are right but only in high demand situations. During regular driving, as John stated, the battery gets discharged rarely. I estimate that 04 Prius can do 0-60 acceleration 10 times in a row in order for the battery to run low. Realistically, how often do you need to drive like that?
Regarding about Prius track running out of battery.... Who knows, maybe performance HSD needs to have more powerful MG1. The work that TRD put in will definitely go into the next HSD Sports car.
Dennis
___From the C&D article, they were speaking of 10.2 seconds on a full SOC and a tad under 15 seconds with 0 SOC. I don’t know exactly how they measured the Prius’ battery pack assistance or SOC but I know the 01-03 Prius BCM attempted to take the Ni-MH to ~ 56% actual capacity. If the same is true of the 04 for batter longevity, the 04 Prius’ 9.8 - 11.2 seconds to 60 is at the best end of the scale. If the pack is heading towards a similar charge of ~ 56%, 12 + seconds to 60 is more then likely the result over time. We will need to see the lab results in a few months to make sure but 0 - 60 times are already pretty low on the scale at 100% SOC and it can only go from bad to worse.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
http://tinyurl.com/3gdy8 - Rob I like the sound of a well tuned exhaust sometimes Fruth
The journalist on the NPR piece also went on to say that "by this time next year" there will be hybrid Accords AND Camrys. As well as GM models?
And I read a separate piece last night saying Ford HEV is well and truly set to be available this summer.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In my mind it does little good to shift the pollution to a different spot, much better to solve the problem rather than put a band-aid on it although the proposed noise barriers that also act to generate solar electricity sounds like a good compromise.
This however was way off topic. If you are looking for a hybrid, the answer right now is wait or get a Honda or Toyota, period.
boaz: "Rich and poor people have access to as much of the same things as possible."
You and I are going to have to disagree on ths one, bud. The rich and the poor have an immense chasm between them in terms of the access they have to goods and services in this country, and that abyss is widening rapidly. Are you aware just how rich the rich are in this country? Certainly a $0.50 gas tax isn't going to affect the balance very much.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't think gas price is going to be the motivating factor for most people to go to the Prius or other high mileage alternatives.
RE: European lifestyle... Boaz.. when was the last time you were in Europe? Granted we do have a wonderful lifestyle here in America, but when I visited Italy, Spain, Switzerland, Holland, France, Monaco, the people seemed to have a very nice lifestyle driving their little cars around. So nice not to see those obnoxious trucks and SUVs. But those two stroke mopeds are REALLY annoying.
I realized later today that Bill Ford was referring to the hybrid Mariner when he said there would be two hybrid SUVs next year from the Ford company. Big whoop - two IDENTICAL SMALL SUVs, the Escape and Mariner. I wonder how many they would sell if they came up with a hybrid Explorer.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Additionally, this is the first application of Honda's VTEC Controlled Cylinder Idling System, which can close the intake and exhaust valves of up to three of the gas engine's four cylinders during deceleration. This reduces engine drag..."
How can closing of intake and exhaust valves reduce engine drag? There will be even more pumping loss due to power loss needed to create vacuum in the cylinders. Shouldn't they be open?
"A study done by NASA's research center in Langley, Va., indicates that one way that hybrid vehicles could be refined is to use a modified Miller-cycle engine (similar to what is used in diesel-powered vehicles) that would run on ethanol."
04 Prius is already using Miller cycle with gasoline. Miller implemented Atkinson concept with a timing modification to an Otto cycle engine.
Dennis
Dennis
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)