I didn't post the article, someone else did. The article highlighted a case in which the Prius owner was indeed achieving 60 mpg, his alternative vehicle got 20 mpg, and it mentioned his dollar savings in gas. So I wasn't comparing a Prius to a truck; the MSN article did.
It has been claimed here that the 5-door, midsized Prius can be fairly compared to a compact, 4-door sedan. Different classes of cars, different configurations of cars. Fine. If that's fair, why isn't it fair to compare a Prius to a truck, especially when the truck is the alternate vehicle for the person who owns the Prius? What if a 4-door sedan like a Civic or Accord doesn't meet the needs of the buyer? Are you still going to force that comparison, just so there is no possible cost advantage to the hybrid?
Face it, folks: for many people, hybrids can and do save money. For others, they don't. It's not as cut-and-dried as the press would have us believe with vague statements from unnamed "analysts"--especially when the case studies used in the same article don't back up the assertions by the analysts.
backy is proving the point well that just because the media asserts over and over that Hybrids equal wasted money DOES NOT MEAN that it is true in ALL CASES....but in some cases, you can certainly overpay and waste money if you are "just in it for the Hybrid badge" or to get that "I'm saving the environment" feeling that some people seem to adore so well......
What about the vaunted Edmunds True Market Value (TMV) pricing? Are they way off base to put the difference at a conservative $3000+ difference?
I shopped the HCH, Civic EX, and Accord LX. Even before the gas prices went up the cheapest I found a HCH- Manual was $18600. I got the Accord for $17200. Of course you would have made the comparison to 20,xxx for the Accord since that was the MSRP. The difference in price, quietness, and space made the Accord the easy choice for me. But now that the HCH is usually sold for at/near MSRP, it is not even in the same ballpark value wise to either the Accord LX or Civic LX/EX.
It is laughable what your idea of equivalent is. quote larsb- I went and "built my Toyota" on toyota.com and tried to build as close as I could to the 2004 Civic Hybrid I bought - this would have been the Corolla I could have lived with had I wanted to accept fewer MPG:
Model: LE 4-Speed Automatic Transmission (1822) $15,690
Delivery, Handling and Processing Fee:** $515
Options: $2,060 50 state emissions, All weather guard package, Anti-lock brake system, Audio value package includes:, Sunroof and side curtain airbag
Accessories: $831 Carpet floor mats (4pc. set) (CF) $87 Rear spoiler (RF) $425 V.i.p rs3200 plus security system (V5) $319
Total MSRP:*** $19,096 -end
Equivalent according to larsb
Corolla- JBL 6 speaker stereo w/ 6 disc CD changer equals HCH 4 speaker stereo w/ single disc CD
Corolla- Front airbags, side airbags, and front curtain airbags equals HCH front and side airbags
Corolla- $319 accessory security system equals HCH w/o Honda accessory security system
Add an aftermarket sunroof, Honda 6 disc changer, Honda security system, aftermarket spoiler to the HCH and now the HCH is over $22,500. Of course, a fair comparison is not in any larsb post up to now. We should compare Chevy Avalanche to HCH to make larsb feel better.
EPA MPG for Corolla is 32/41 EPA MPG for HCH is 45/51 There is no significant cost savings on fuel here.
Oh, Moparbad, so ANGRY are you.....:) "Of course, a fair comparison is not in any larsb post up to now." Just flat out incorrect mi argumentative amigo.
You can yak all day about your points, but the fact is I paid $1524 more for the HCH over the EX and would have paid about the same amount more over the Corolla to get the car I wanted and the MPG I wanted.
What I chose at the Toyota site is the equivalent Corolla I would have chosen had I bought one. ( I actually did this shopping before my purchase. )
I gave up auto tranny for the sake of getting the Hybrid, being that was all the dealer had at the time, but in fact it has been fun to drive a manual again.
And I cannot help it if Toyota charges 425 bux for a spoiler. I live in Phoenix, don't want or need a sunroof (more glass to let heat into the car.)
Don't need a 6-disc changer, mostly listen to talk radio. Gotta deal with the airbags I can get on the car I want - airbag options and restrictions are a way of life these days.
I'll monitor my own tire pressure, thanks, like I have for 25+ years of driving. And I DO have the Honda security system, thus that option chosen on the Corolla.
And my HCH is Honda Certified, increasing the basic warranty.
Read this part carefully so you can stop wasting time attacking my logic: The EPA for the Manual HCH is 46/51, not to quibble, and 90% of my driving is City driving, so the comparison to the Corolla, using strict EPA numbers which we ALL KNOW can VARY in real life, is 32 versus 46. Thus my earlier posts referencing 12-15 mpg more for the HCH are COMPLETELY ACCURATE. So please don't try to mess with my gas mileage data - that's one of many things *I KNOW FOR SURE* is correct...
My point has been that the media stories are touting the Hybrids as too expensive/not worth it, and I am showing you that at least in MY PARTICULAR CASE that is not true.
quote-Sorry, I have to disagree. The Hybrid Civic is not the top of the line - it is a new technology, with unknown costs down the line.-end
Actually, there is no case in American Automotive History where a higher model in a car line does not hold comparably higher value than the cars further down the product line.
And the Civic Hybrid *most assuredly is* the top of the line in the Civic family - ask any Honda dealer. If Honda considered it "not in the line" they would have called it something other than a Civic, would they not have? It is most definitely the "top of the line" in the Civic family - that point is not even debatable.
And the "costs down the line" don't matter when you have an extended warranty, and they CERTAINLY do not matter at resale time.
To prove my point perfectly: Has anyone EVER heard of ANY car that will "sell for less" at resale time "BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BREAK" later? That's just not reality my friend.
___Take it easy on your supposed proof that a Civic EX costs only $1,340 less then an HCH. Being a Chicago area native and seeing what has been stated by Moparbad in post #414 previously, brand new 04 4-door Civic EX’s w/ Auto go out the door (including destination) for < $16,500. As a little primer, you may just want to take a look at the following Honda Dealership ad here near Chicago for some real world prices How about an 04 Accord EX-L 4-door sedan w/ Auto and NAVI for $22,450? Would you rather have a new or used top HCH for $22,130 or a brand new 04 4 door Accord with Leather, Auto, and NAVI for just $320 more instead? The prices you are quoting for the non-Hybrid Honda Civic EX are nowhere near real world whereas those for the HCH are unfortunately :-(
___You can see the 04 4-door Accord EX-L Auto w/ NAVI details in this weeks online ad as shown in the following link:
http://grandhonda.com/ Click on the “Click Here for Specials” button for further detail
Right now my 2004 HCH is sitting at 52.6 mpg for the current tank after 405 miles. I'd say that's paying my gas money back pretty fast for the $1524 I spent choosing my HCH over the EX I could have purchased the same night.
___As for what kind of mileage you are currently receiving on a tank over tank basis, you are not doing much better then I do with the 03 Corolla LE w/ Auto when I drive exclusively which is also listed in Greenhybrid.com’s Real Hybrid Mileage Database.
I went and "built my Toyota" on toyota.com and tried to build as close as I could to the 2004 Civic Hybrid I bought - this would have been the Corolla I could have lived with had I wanted to accept fewer MPG:
___Larsb, you have got to see the other side of the equation on this. I can pick up an 05 Corolla LE w/ Auto, ABS, VSC, Side and Side Curtains, Cruise, All weather guard package, mats, and I even placed the 6-spoke Alloys on it for $16,900 from my local Toyota dealer tomorrow! Another 2 months and you will see $500 + rebates on top of this already great price as there is a .9% financing deal on them even today. That 34 - 38 mpg you quoted Sure if you flog it. Given your latest 52 mpg tank in your HCH, you would be receiving around 42 or so in the Corolla LE w/ Auto. Believe me, I own one and a Corolla LE w/ Auto is quite capable of 52 mpg when taken to Hypermileage status just as the HCH is good for ~ 60 mpg doing the same on today’s highways and byways. A quick look at my Corolla’s June 24th tank of which I drove the entire tank should tell this story far better then words and without hyperbole.
___We have a large range of choices in the automobiles we so desire but to try and say a brand new Hybrid purchase of any available can pay itself off in $’s vs. the non-Hybrid counterpart (if there is one) stretches the truth more then just a bit. I can cost justify my own 2000 Honda Insight (91.1 lmpg) right now but even that isn’t a slam dunk vs. some of the other non-hybrid automobiles available and I purchased the Insight for half off compared to new! One only need to look at Edmunds TCO for the Honda Civic EX w/ Auto ($0.36/mile) or 05 Toyota Corolla LE w/ Auto ($0.36/mile) vs. the Honda Civic Hybrid ($0.38/mile) which includes fuel costs over 15,000 miles/year to tell a story far better then one being offered to date
As far as "proof" on the $1340, what better "proof" than actual cars for sale on Autotrader.com? I'm not making that up - those prices are there RIGHT NOW TODAY. That's not fiction my friend - do the search yourself.
I'm not trying to say that EVERY Civic EX on the market is $1340 less than EVERY HCH on the market, but in THIS CASE, there are MULTIPLE CARS listed on autotrader for those prices with THAT SPECIFIC price difference. It cannot be wished or logicked away - it's actual cars you could buy today !!!
I do also know for a FACT that the price for the Civic EX I shopped the night I bought my HCH was only $1524 less than the HCH I ended up choosing.
I do also know for a fact that I priced new Corollas with comparable features ( and 12-15 LESS MPG than the HCH ) in the upper 17,000s before I even went to a dealer. Maybe you and others could get $1000 off of that price, and more power to you, but that still does not change the listed prices.
Focus on this statement: All I am trying to show here is that there IS NO FACTUAL BASIS to ASSUME that EVERY HYBRID purchase is a rock-headed, financially unsound decision - because there is NO WAY that is true. And Many, if not Most, of the media articles are leaning that way, if not outright declaring it as fact !!
Wayne, you know as well as I do that it is WAY easier to get "hypermiles" on an HCH, with a display that helps you, than it is on a Corolla, where you do not have a live readout and basically have to go by feel.
And you know too that the "TCO/cost per mile" data is a broad generality that will vary greatly owner by owner.
I wonder if JASPAR (Japan Automotive Software Platform and Architecture) is used for things like the A/C, check engine light, airbags, ABS etc or does it include some of the hybrid (software) system ? JASPAR article
quote-___As for what kind of mileage you are currently receiving on a tank over tank basis, you are not doing much better then I do with the 03 Corolla LE w/ Auto when I drive exclusively which is also listed in Greenhybrid.com’s Real Hybrid Mileage Database.-end
Wayne, it looks like to me your commute is quite long, minimum ride is 97 minutes, is that data accurate? And your tires are at 50 PSI? WHEW, that's way up there amigo !!! I'm at 38 PSI on mine, and have drifted down to 35 PSI on occasion.
I am SEVERELY HAMSTRUNG by mine. My commute is less than 15 miles, all city, about 12 red lights, speed 35-45 mph, with two stops (one to buy newspaper and the other to drop off two kids) in the middle.
And I live in Phoenix, where in the afternoons I'm battling STIFLING heat that requires either fully taxing the air conditioner and not using the ECON button and driving my mpg WAY down or driving with the windows down (thus losing slight mpg due to wind drag) and sweating with the kiddos. Additionally, on the afternoon commute, I sometimes have to sit through one particular red light more than once because there is a frewway entrance there and the backup gets long there during rush hour.
My MPG will continue to go up as I learn and develop more driving tricks, and will CERTAINLY get a big boost in October when it cools down here enough to stop using A/C for about five months.
As far as "proof" on the $1340, what better "proof" than actual cars for sale on Autotrader.com? I'm not making that up - those prices are there RIGHT NOW TODAY. That's not fiction my friend - do the search yourself.
___I don’t need to go to Autotrader to see highly marked up used Honda’s to know what I can pick up either a brand new Civic EX or brand new Civic Hybrid for. Edmunds as well as the local dealerships tells the tale in this regard and why someone would pay $19K for a used Civic EX when they can purchase a brand new one for $16,500 is ridiculous. I can list my 00 Insight for $13,500 over at Autotrader tomorrow as well and both you and I know it will never sell for that price It doesn’t matter if there is 1 car or 100 cars that are overpriced at Autotrader.com, picking up a brand new car from the dealership for less then a used one listed at Autotrader or Cars.com will be the only choice you and I would ever make given the prices you and I are quoting.
I do also know for a fact that I priced new Corollas with comparable features and 12-15 LESS MPG than the Civic in the upper 17,000s before I even went to a dealer. Maybe you and others could get $1000 off of that price, and more power to you, but that still does not change the listed prices.
___I know I can pick up an 05 Corolla LE w/ Auto as equipped for < $17,000 and if I forgo the alloys and wait 2 more months for the $500 rebate, it will only cost $16,200!
Focus on this statement: All I am trying to show here is that there IS NO FACTUAL BASIS to ASSUME that EVERY HYBRID purchase is a rock-headed, financially unsound decision - because there is NO WAY that is true. And Many, if not Most, of the media articles are leaning that way, if not outright declaring it as fact !!
___I am not saying there is absolutely no reason to purchase a Hybrid as there are any number of other reasons one might do so. When comparing the Hybrid’s total overall costs including the fuel savings vs. the non-hybrid however, it does not add up is all.
Wayne, you know as well as I do that it is WAY easier to get "hypermiles" on an HCH, with a display that helps you, than it is on a Corolla, where you do not have a live readout and basically have to go by feel.
___With all the tips and tricks I have posted over at Greenhybrid, it is a lot easier to achieve Hypermileage status in a non-Hybrid then with in all but a deep inner city environment. Hybrid’s (the Prius II included) have a much larger fuel economy loss in percentage of EPA estimates vs. the non-Hybrid’s in the real world. I have seen CR’s articles stating this more then once. A game gauge is nice but that 751 mile tank in the non-game gauged equipped Corolla the last time I drove it for a week should speak volumes In other words, I would hope to achieve the excellent fuel economy that both Hot_Georgia_2004 and Kenny have achieved in their HCH’s of around 57 mpg overall just as I would expect to achieve an overall 45 - 47 mpg in the Corolla LE w/ Auto when I drive exclusively over the same period. The numbers from the Corolla speak for themselves if you haven’t looked them up with tank over tank fuel economy detail as to who was driving her and over what distances.
And you know too that the "TCO/cost per mile" data is a broad generality that will vary greatly owner by owner.
___I don’t doubt that statement one bit given the maintenance costs are so far above what I have experienced in the real world on the Hybrid and all my non-Hybrid’s alike. I do know however that I can beat Edmunds purchase prices on a non-Hybrid of similar size/feature/amenity (Civic EX or Corolla LE for example) quite easily. For a Hybrid, not a chance right now unfortunately :-( With that, the non-Hybrid’s real world TCO is far less then what Edmunds posts and I would suspect the Hybrid is overstated as well. The item of note however is that the Hybrid’s are overstated by less then the non-Hybrid’s given the purchase prices and even the way fuel costs are calculated
As far as "proof" on the $1340, what better "proof" than actual cars for sale on Autotrader.com? I'm not making that up - those prices are there RIGHT NOW TODAY. That's not fiction my friend - do the search yourself.
If you are daft enough to believe Autotrader asking prices are real world transaction numbers, I have listed a 99 Acura TL with 124030 miles on Autotrader for only $19999.
I do also know for a FACT that the price for the Civic EX I shopped the night I bought my HCH was only $1524 less than the HCH I ended up choosing.
And how do you KNOW that? You are comparing the haggled down price you paid for your HCH vs the asking price for the EX. Nobody in their right minds would pay 17800 for a used 04 Civic EX when you can get a brand new 04 Accord LX for a few hundred more.
quote-If you are daft enough to believe Autotrader asking prices are real world transaction numbers, I have listed a 99 Acura TL with 124030 miles on Autotrader for only $19999.-end.
It would be appreciated by me and constructive for all if you would GO LOOK FOR YOUR DANG SELF and quit challenging me when I have REPEATEDLY quoted REAL CARS for ACTUAL SALE with CURRENT DATA. Here is how to do the search AGAIN so you can SEE FOR YOURSELF:
Autotrader.com, new cars, Honda Civic, 2004, Zip code 85034, 25 miles. The top seven or eight cars are the ones I am talking about.
Wayne, it looks like to me your commute is quite long, minimum ride is 97 minutes, is that data accurate? And your tires are at 50 PSI? WHEW, that's way up there amigo !!! I'm at 38 PSI on mine, and have drifted down to 35 PSI on occasion.
___This is just one of the reasons why you are not reaching the fuel economy that either Kenny or Hot_Georgia_2004 in their HCH’s are achieving. I am comparing my 45 - 47 mpg to there 57 mpg w/ similar tire pressures and similar A/C usage of little to none. If you want to compare the Corolla’s 52 vs. your HCH’s 52 mpg be my guest but it wouldn’t be fair to you and your HCH. And yes, ~ 90 minute commute in the Corolla and ~ 120 minutes in the Insight as I drive her a bit slower to reach the truly hypermileage fuel economy that I do in the “Little Red Beauty”
My MPG will continue to go up as I learn and develop more driving tricks, and will CERTAINLY get a big boost in October when it cools down here enough to stop using A/C for about five months.
___And I hope it will soon as well. 52 in a HCH is not all that great given all you know about Hypermiling. Remember, ~ 35 mph is the perfect speed to achieve maximum fuel economy. Once you learn to time those lights, you may just achieve even better but right now, you are just matching my last full tank of the Corolla. I cannot do a thing about the heat you experience in Phoenix as I was using MAX A/C in the Le Sabre we rented when there last month. You can see that behemoths mileage details in a thread over at our favorite Hybrid site of interest also.
___Finally, if you do in fact finally achieve a 57 mpg overall average in your HCH, you would have probably been able to achieve 45 mpg overall in a Civic EX as well. The “city” thing is the big question however?
I think we are WELL off topic of the "Hybrids in the News"
So - stay on topic or find a more appropriate discussion. Further off-topic posts will be removed, no courtesy of sending you your post to re-post in another discussion. Just a heads up.
( Sorry Sylvia - it BEGAN as a news issue, but as you can see it evolved into something else..I tried EVERY POST to mention the news aspect, but failed sometimes.....)
www.canadiandriver.com has a good HCH article - oldish but still relevant:
"B.C. or Bust: Driving across Canada in a Honda Civic Hybrid, Part One by Paul Williams "
In his 2005 budget proposal, Bush has proposed a $4,000 tax credit for a buyer of a hybrid car. He also has proposed spending $1.7 billion over the next five years to develop hydrogen-powered fuel cells, hydrogen infrastructure and advanced automotive technologies. Source: http://www.freep.com/news/politics/kerry7_20040807.htm
I know that Kerry has recently offered up a similar "cash back" plan, but I can't find the reference right now.
How do you feel about incentivizing hybrid buyers? Should it be more or less? We're looking at a product that currently sells as fast as it's produced (often even before it's produced) and the manufacturers are making as many as they can. Is hyrid consumption thus a behavior that needs incentivizing? Could the money be better spent on incentivizing potential parts (battery!) manufacturers so that production could be increased to meet demand?
I'd love to hear any and all opinions! (but hey, let's try and keep pure politics out of it)
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...of giving people incentives to buy higher mileage and/or lower polluting cars, but I think it's wrong to limit it to hybrids. If you're driving a deisal car and getting 45 MPG, why shouldn't you get an incentive? I think the incentives should focus less on a specific technology and instead focus on the results we want (lower gas useage, better air).
The incentives for diesel would not be appropriate for users of REGULAR, DIRTY diesel, which is a major polluter.
Maybe an incentive (or completely pay for) diesel drivers who convert to use "veggie oil" or maybe a percentage rebate for diesel drivers who purchase "bio-diesel" for their vehicles - say if they provide $1000 in valid bio-diesel receipts they get a $200 rebate or something like that maybe?
I have read that the "do it yourself" conversion to using "used" veggie fry oil is fairly simple.
Well, you are correct that cars DO have special tricks to reduce the AMOUNT of dangerous diesel emmissions compared to what comes out of diesel transport trucks, absolutely.
But the chemicals released from diesel exhaust are not changed, car versus truck. Just more or less of them.
"If Honda considered it "not in the line" they would have called it something other than a Civic, would they not have? It is most definitely the "top of the line" in the Civic family - that point is not even debatable. "
Well, here is your debate. They call it a Civic because that is the car chasis they used. It would be pretty confusing otherwise. The mechanical underpinnings are compeletely different. It even has a different engine. I consider the EX to be the top of the line; the Hybrid is more or less the same as the EX, only more expensive. I don't doubt that dealers trying to sell the most expensive car are touting the Hybrid as the top of the line. They are out to make commissions, based on the sale price.
I suspect that buyers of the Cadillac Diesel engines in the 1980s were told their models were the top of the line, due to price. The engines proved unreliable, and the cars had very poor resale.
"And the "costs down the line" don't matter when you have an extended warranty, and they CERTAINLY do not matter at resale time."
Tell it to the mechanic if the battery back has to be replaced or the electric component of the transmission has to be fixed. Extended warranties only go to 100K miles.
"To prove my point perfectly: Has anyone EVER heard of ANY car that will "sell for less" at resale time "BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BREAK" later? That's just not reality my friend."
Yup, I have heard of it. It's called poor reliability, and you can find it on some car websites in convenient black circles, or here on the Edmunds site. We simply don't know how well this stuff will survive the years. Resale value is calculated professionally by KBB, and takes into account things like the reliablity of the drive train, which is what the Hybrid is - a drivetrain technology.
Many are simply poorly informed and thrive on the stories that will draw a lot of attention.
Virtually ever single article I have ever read on hybrids have had several errors in it. They just guess about how HSD works, which leads to incorrect performance estimates.
The most common error is assuming 15 MPH is the upper limit for the electric drive (aka "Stealth").
In reality, it is actually a 10kW. If you remain under that draw on the battery-pack, the charge-level is above 42 percent, and the catalytic-converter is hot, you can maintain up to 42 MPH (for around 3 miles under ideal conditions). You can even accelerate from a dead stop to 42 MPH without the engine starting.
The only thing I don't like about online forums is how often things are interpreted incorrectly, sometimes in part because its hard to "discuss" things in this fashion.
What I MEANT by the "sell for less because of something that might break later" is that cars will not sell for less because of UNKNOWN things that might break later.
Reliability Ratings are based on "Known past problems." NOT on "this part is in the car and it's reliability is not known so the car is losing value". THAT is what I meant.
"Reliability Ratings are based on "Known past problems." NOT on "this part is in the car and it's reliability is not known so the car is losing value". THAT is what I meant."
Hmmm, that is the whole point. We do not know at this point what the resale effects will be. If the vehicle proves utterly reliable, it will have good resale. I'm sorry, I thought you knew we were talking about an unknown factor at this point. It could go either way.
When it comes time to sell a used hybrid, the need for replacements (as measured in reliability data) due to the hybrid drivetrain will be part of the resale value equation. Those buying now will face whichever future turns out to be correct. That is why I said that the effect of the hybrid technology on resale is uncertain at this point...
But then again... there is always the opportunity that an after-market provider could offer a beefed up battery-pack that takes advantage of the EV mode (a level beyond stealth that is already built into the vehicle, but not enabled).
A handful of owners have already taken it upon themselves to prove this substantially improves the power & efficiency of the system by doing exactly that. So we know for a fact that the potential exists. It's just a matter of using it.
Imagine what that could do to the resale market with the knowledge that the system can be enhanced beyond what it was actually sold as. The vehicle could retain value beyond what many had ever anticipated.
"When it comes time to sell a used hybrid, the need for replacements (as measured in reliability data) due to the hybrid drivetrain will be part of the resale value equation. Those buying now will face whichever future turns out to be correct. That is why I said that the effect of the hybrid technology on resale is uncertain at this point..." Man, are we way off topic again !!
What I mean is that "just because it is new" does not mean it has questionable reliability. Plus, the separate parts of the "hybrid drivetrain" in the HCH at least are minimal - it's a little electric motor that is hooked into the transmission - not a lot of "STUFF" per se to break or to worry about.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that YES, just like any other NEW CAR, we do not know at this point what the future reliability will be. HOWEVER: this IS after all a HONDA CIVIC, which over the long history of this model line maintained superior reliability and resale value.
I'm saying THAT history should be more of an indicator than unknown factors.
How about this...this discussion is for pasting in URLs to NEWS ARTICLES. Any posts after the linke NOT relating the the NEWS ARTICLE will be DELETED - and without the courtesy email.
Understood. But realize the previous long thread was in regards to a news article that was posted here about hybrids not being economically justifiable. That can get into lots of areas, including the discussion on the cost of replacement parts over time. Unless we use this discussion just to post articles, and not discuss them. But that would be pretty boring, wouldn't it? :-)
"Imagine what that could do to the resale market with the knowledge that the system can be enhanced beyond what it was actually sold as. The vehicle could retain value beyond what many had ever anticipated."
Good point, John, it could go either way. Haven't seen any news articles on this point, however (there, that should satisfy the hosts)...
Here's an article from Company Car, a UK publication, that mentions the Prius' EV function. The EV switch is standard in European Priuses, and available aftermarket in the U.S.:
Someone sees the forest and the trees - snip - DETROIT – Honda Motor Co. Ltd.’s new Accord hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) will be profitable, vows President and CEO Takeo Fukui, who hints a hybrid light truck could be in the company’s future. http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_honda_high_accord/index.htm
Someone sees the forest and the trees - snip - DETROIT – Honda Motor Co. Ltd.’s new Accord hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) will be profitable, vows President and CEO Takeo Fukui, who hints a hybrid light truck could be in the company’s future."
Yeah, people over in the CR-V forum are hoping that is the vehicle. It would be a slam dunk, since the CR-V already gets 27 MPG highway, and the US model has an empty well under the cargo floor, perfect for a battery pack.
In CR-V, I would suggest replacing the AWD system with an IMA based AWD system! Let it engage like VTM-4 does. Not only can it save some bucks (RTAWD not needed), but it can also trim down the weight.
190 HP K24A (front wheels) and 60 HP IMA (rear wheels) was the powertrain in Acura RDX concept after all! And speaking of RDX, could it be the light truck? RDX is being rumored to be built in Ohio, shortly.
"In CR-V, I would suggest replacing the AWD system with an IMA based AWD system! Let it engage like VTM-4 does. Not only can it save some bucks (RTAWD not needed), but it can also trim down the weight."
I like it, but keep in mind that this idea is not an IMA - it is an independent electric motor. IMA is an electric motor in line with the transmission. You are suggesting replacing the transmission in the rear with a separate electric motor.
GM is proud of their hybrid buses as they should be, wonder how many years till they make something that will fit in my garage ? - snip - Quiet hybrid-powered buses get 60 percent better fuel economy and significantly reduced emissions http://tinyurl.com/42ema
I have not seen a Honda “hybrid” concept that hasn’t used IMA. Here is an excerpt:
"The RD-X is designed to be powered by a unique 250 horsepower, 4-wheel drive, hybrid powertrain that combines a high-output i-VTEC(TM) engine with an Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system. Under the hood is a high performance 2.4-liter, 16-valve, DOHC 4-cylinder engine coupled to 6-speed, close-ratio clutchless manual transmission, which drives the front wheels, while the advanced IMA system powers the rear wheels."
2001 Honda Dualnote (also showcased as 2002 Acura DNX) also utilized IMA in an AWD format for a total of 400 HP. Here are schematics of how the hybrid AWD system was set up (you will notice some similarity to the SH-AWD in RL because both utilize ATTS).
Pulling Away: Electric motors drive the front wheels to move the vehicle smoothly away from rest. The motors also work in concert with the gasoline engine to boost power for sportier driving.
Acceleration During Cornering: By providing optimal torque distribution to each of the four wheels, Honda IMA accurately responds to driver inputs and road surface conditions to assure that the car accurately traces the intended drive path.
Normal Cornering: During normal cornering when the car is not accelerating, the system activates regenerative braking of the front inside motor employing the torque difference between inner and outer wheels. This improves cornering capability and efficiently recoups energy.
In the second picture, you will see that the inside front wheel has less power compared to the others, although the sole power provider is the electric motor (and controlled via the “IMA box”). IMA isn't just the electric motor, it is the complete system (including the controller).
The article comments on "an amazing 247 lb-ft of torque at a low 1900 rpm" of the diesel Passat. Funny how they weren't impressed by the 295 lb-ft. of torque of the Prius' electric motor at a super-low 0-1200 rpm.
I simply avoid putting any weightage to articles like those. They are simply written with a heavy bias, one side or the other. To make another point besides the one you did...
"A 2004 Civic LX gasoline sedan with manual transmission and many comparable features carried a starting MSRP that was some $4,000 less."
First of all, why not compare with EX? After all, Hybrid has the same features (minus one or two, plus one or two) compared to that model. And nobody does math between EX and LX!
I'm glad Honda is emphasizing on something other than pure economy with launch of Accord Hybrid.
quote-First of all, why not compare with EX? After all, Hybrid has the same features (minus one or two, plus one or two) compared to that model. And nobody does math between EX and LX!-end
Why not compare against the LX? After all, Hybrid has the same features (minus one or two, plus one or two) compared to that model. Oh, that is what they did, that is logical. C'mon Robert, this comparison has been rehashed here so many times and the EX with auto actual selling price is under $16,000 right now anyway and the LX to Hybrid selling price difference is actually greater than $5000, not $4000. (It must REALLY chap the rear end of hybrid owners that they paid $4000 and will not save money on their purchase) If someone really wants a Hybrid, they are not going to buy an EX or LX. They will be shopping the Prius vs. HCH vs. other available hybrids.
You can find faults with nearly any article and this one was a very superficial one, not an in depth tecnical comparison.
I’m pretty good at finding faults in articles, especially like these. :-) Heck, they could have used DX trim for comparison.
That said, selling price is dictated by demand and supply. Low inventory turnaround time = greater premium. Is HCH still selling at MSRP? If it is, then people seem to be willing to pay for it more than they are about other trims. Simple. I don’t see how you could use this as an argument against.
Unless I were shopping for these cars, and letting dealers fight over pricing, I prefer using MSRP based “universal” comparison.
Moparbad, I proved on a previous thread that no one "HAS" to pay more than $1340 more for a Hybrid versus a comparable EX - don't forget that...:)
Anyone who pays $4000 more for a Hybrid than a "comparably equipped" LX/DX/EX is just a fool.
I paid $1524 more for a Hybrid than an EX on the lot the same night that I could have purchased that met my needs as well EXCEPT for the extra 15 MPG of the Hybrid.
Sorry, you were proven wrong, except in the fantasy world. The difference between an EX and HCH is 3500 to 4500. Why do we have to go through this again? Real world dealer prices and carsdirect prices show this, not fantasy MSRP exercises. I wanted a hybrid, but could not justify the difference. At one point the gap got within about 1700-2500, but now with higher gas prices the difference is 3500-4500.
Anyone who can't get a Civic EX Manual for less than 16000 is just not trying. Show me where a new HCH Manual is available for 17300 and I will buy one. Name the dealer.
Comments
It has been claimed here that the 5-door, midsized Prius can be fairly compared to a compact, 4-door sedan. Different classes of cars, different configurations of cars. Fine. If that's fair, why isn't it fair to compare a Prius to a truck, especially when the truck is the alternate vehicle for the person who owns the Prius? What if a 4-door sedan like a Civic or Accord doesn't meet the needs of the buyer? Are you still going to force that comparison, just so there is no possible cost advantage to the hybrid?
Face it, folks: for many people, hybrids can and do save money. For others, they don't. It's not as cut-and-dried as the press would have us believe with vague statements from unnamed "analysts"--especially when the case studies used in the same article don't back up the assertions by the analysts.
I shopped the HCH, Civic EX, and Accord LX. Even before the gas prices went up the cheapest I found a HCH- Manual was $18600. I got the Accord for $17200. Of course you would have made the comparison to 20,xxx for the Accord since that was the MSRP. The difference in price, quietness, and space made the Accord the easy choice for me. But now that the HCH is usually sold for at/near MSRP, it is not even in the same ballpark value wise to either the Accord LX or Civic LX/EX.
quote larsb-
I went and "built my Toyota" on toyota.com and tried to build as close as I could to the 2004 Civic Hybrid I bought - this would have been the Corolla I could have lived with had I wanted to accept fewer MPG:
Model: LE 4-Speed Automatic Transmission (1822) $15,690
Delivery, Handling and Processing Fee:** $515
Options: $2,060
50 state emissions, All weather guard package, Anti-lock brake system, Audio value package includes:, Sunroof and side curtain airbag
Accessories: $831
Carpet floor mats (4pc. set) (CF) $87
Rear spoiler (RF) $425
V.i.p rs3200 plus security system (V5) $319
Total MSRP:*** $19,096 -end
Equivalent according to larsb
Corolla- JBL 6 speaker stereo w/ 6 disc CD changer equals HCH 4 speaker stereo w/ single disc CD
Corolla- Front airbags, side airbags, and front curtain airbags equals HCH front and side airbags
Corolla- Sunroof equals HCH no sunroof available
Corolla- $425 accessory spoiler equals HCH trunk lip spoiler
Corolla- ABS with tire pressure monitoring equals HCH ABS w/o tire pressure monitoring
Corolla- $319 accessory security system equals HCH w/o Honda accessory security system
Add an aftermarket sunroof, Honda 6 disc changer, Honda security system, aftermarket spoiler to the HCH and now the HCH is over $22,500.
Of course, a fair comparison is not in any larsb post up to now. We should compare Chevy Avalanche to HCH to make larsb feel better.
EPA MPG for Corolla is 32/41
EPA MPG for HCH is 45/51
There is no significant cost savings on fuel here.
Your concept of equivalent is bizarre.
You can yak all day about your points, but the fact is I paid $1524 more for the HCH over the EX and would have paid about the same amount more over the Corolla to get the car I wanted and the MPG I wanted.
What I chose at the Toyota site is the equivalent Corolla I would have chosen had I bought one. ( I actually did this shopping before my purchase. )
I gave up auto tranny for the sake of getting the Hybrid, being that was all the dealer had at the time, but in fact it has been fun to drive a manual again.
And I cannot help it if Toyota charges 425 bux for a spoiler. I live in Phoenix, don't want or need a sunroof (more glass to let heat into the car.)
Don't need a 6-disc changer, mostly listen to talk radio. Gotta deal with the airbags I can get on the car I want - airbag options and restrictions are a way of life these days.
I'll monitor my own tire pressure, thanks, like I have for 25+ years of driving. And I DO have the Honda security system, thus that option chosen on the Corolla.
And my HCH is Honda Certified, increasing the basic warranty.
Read this part carefully so you can stop wasting time attacking my logic: The EPA for the Manual HCH is 46/51, not to quibble, and 90% of my driving is City driving, so the comparison to the Corolla, using strict EPA numbers which we ALL KNOW can VARY in real life, is 32 versus 46. Thus my earlier posts referencing 12-15 mpg more for the HCH are COMPLETELY ACCURATE. So please don't try to mess with my gas mileage data - that's one of many things *I KNOW FOR SURE* is correct...
My point has been that the media stories are touting the Hybrids as too expensive/not worth it, and I am showing you that at least in MY PARTICULAR CASE that is not true.
And other people can do what I did too.
Actually, there is no case in American Automotive History where a higher model in a car line does not hold comparably higher value than the cars further down the product line.
And the Civic Hybrid *most assuredly is* the top of the line in the Civic family - ask any Honda dealer. If Honda considered it "not in the line" they would have called it something other than a Civic, would they not have? It is most definitely the "top of the line" in the Civic family - that point is not even debatable.
And the "costs down the line" don't matter when you have an extended warranty, and they CERTAINLY do not matter at resale time.
To prove my point perfectly: Has anyone EVER heard of ANY car that will "sell for less" at resale time "BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BREAK" later? That's just not reality my friend.
___Take it easy on your supposed proof that a Civic EX costs only $1,340 less then an HCH. Being a Chicago area native and seeing what has been stated by Moparbad in post #414 previously, brand new 04 4-door Civic EX’s w/ Auto go out the door (including destination) for < $16,500. As a little primer, you may just want to take a look at the following Honda Dealership ad here near Chicago for some real world prices How about an 04 Accord EX-L 4-door sedan w/ Auto and NAVI for $22,450? Would you rather have a new or used top HCH for $22,130 or a brand new 04 4 door Accord with Leather, Auto, and NAVI for just $320 more instead? The prices you are quoting for the non-Hybrid Honda Civic EX are nowhere near real world whereas those for the HCH are unfortunately :-(
___You can see the 04 4-door Accord EX-L Auto w/ NAVI details in this weeks online ad as shown in the following link:
http://grandhonda.com/ Click on the “Click Here for Specials” button for further detail
Right now my 2004 HCH is sitting at 52.6 mpg for the current tank after 405 miles. I'd say that's paying my gas money back pretty fast for the $1524 I spent choosing my HCH over the EX I could have purchased the same night.
___As for what kind of mileage you are currently receiving on a tank over tank basis, you are not doing much better then I do with the 03 Corolla LE w/ Auto when I drive exclusively which is also listed in Greenhybrid.com’s Real Hybrid Mileage Database.
I went and "built my Toyota" on toyota.com and tried to build as close as I could to the 2004 Civic Hybrid I bought - this would have been the Corolla I could have lived with had I wanted to accept fewer MPG:
___Larsb, you have got to see the other side of the equation on this. I can pick up an 05 Corolla LE w/ Auto, ABS, VSC, Side and Side Curtains, Cruise, All weather guard package, mats, and I even placed the 6-spoke Alloys on it for $16,900 from my local Toyota dealer tomorrow! Another 2 months and you will see $500 + rebates on top of this already great price as there is a .9% financing deal on them even today. That 34 - 38 mpg you quoted Sure if you flog it. Given your latest 52 mpg tank in your HCH, you would be receiving around 42 or so in the Corolla LE w/ Auto. Believe me, I own one and a Corolla LE w/ Auto is quite capable of 52 mpg when taken to Hypermileage status just as the HCH is good for ~ 60 mpg doing the same on today’s highways and byways. A quick look at my Corolla’s June 24th tank of which I drove the entire tank should tell this story far better then words and without hyperbole.
___We have a large range of choices in the automobiles we so desire but to try and say a brand new Hybrid purchase of any available can pay itself off in $’s vs. the non-Hybrid counterpart (if there is one) stretches the truth more then just a bit. I can cost justify my own 2000 Honda Insight (91.1 lmpg) right now but even that isn’t a slam dunk vs. some of the other non-hybrid automobiles available and I purchased the Insight for half off compared to new! One only need to look at Edmunds TCO for the Honda Civic EX w/ Auto ($0.36/mile) or 05 Toyota Corolla LE w/ Auto ($0.36/mile) vs. the Honda Civic Hybrid ($0.38/mile) which includes fuel costs over 15,000 miles/year to tell a story far better then one being offered to date
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I'm not trying to say that EVERY Civic EX on the market is $1340 less than EVERY HCH on the market, but in THIS CASE, there are MULTIPLE CARS listed on autotrader for those prices with THAT SPECIFIC price difference. It cannot be wished or logicked away - it's actual cars you could buy today !!!
I do also know for a FACT that the price for the Civic EX I shopped the night I bought my HCH was only $1524 less than the HCH I ended up choosing.
I do also know for a fact that I priced new Corollas with comparable features ( and 12-15 LESS MPG than the HCH ) in the upper 17,000s before I even went to a dealer. Maybe you and others could get $1000 off of that price, and more power to you, but that still does not change the listed prices.
Focus on this statement: All I am trying to show here is that there IS NO FACTUAL BASIS to ASSUME that EVERY HYBRID purchase is a rock-headed, financially unsound decision - because there is NO WAY that is true. And Many, if not Most, of the media articles are leaning that way, if not outright declaring it as fact !!
Wayne, you know as well as I do that it is WAY easier to get "hypermiles" on an HCH, with a display that helps you, than it is on a Corolla, where you do not have a live readout and basically have to go by feel.
And you know too that the "TCO/cost per mile" data is a broad generality that will vary greatly owner by owner.
JASPAR article
Wayne, it looks like to me your commute is quite long, minimum ride is 97 minutes, is that data accurate? And your tires are at 50 PSI? WHEW, that's way up there amigo !!! I'm at 38 PSI on mine, and have drifted down to 35 PSI on occasion.
I am SEVERELY HAMSTRUNG by mine. My commute is less than 15 miles, all city, about 12 red lights, speed 35-45 mph, with two stops (one to buy newspaper and the other to drop off two kids) in the middle.
And I live in Phoenix, where in the afternoons I'm battling STIFLING heat that requires either fully taxing the air conditioner and not using the ECON button and driving my mpg WAY down or driving with the windows down (thus losing slight mpg due to wind drag) and sweating with the kiddos. Additionally, on the afternoon commute, I sometimes have to sit through one particular red light more than once because there is a frewway entrance there and the backup gets long there during rush hour.
My MPG will continue to go up as I learn and develop more driving tricks, and will CERTAINLY get a big boost in October when it cools down here enough to stop using A/C for about five months.
I could only assume that they would have a hard time hitting the City rating without using driving tricks to keep the gas consumption down...
As far as "proof" on the $1340, what better "proof" than actual cars for sale on Autotrader.com? I'm not making that up - those prices are there RIGHT NOW TODAY. That's not fiction my friend - do the search yourself.
___I don’t need to go to Autotrader to see highly marked up used Honda’s to know what I can pick up either a brand new Civic EX or brand new Civic Hybrid for. Edmunds as well as the local dealerships tells the tale in this regard and why someone would pay $19K for a used Civic EX when they can purchase a brand new one for $16,500 is ridiculous. I can list my 00 Insight for $13,500 over at Autotrader tomorrow as well and both you and I know it will never sell for that price It doesn’t matter if there is 1 car or 100 cars that are overpriced at Autotrader.com, picking up a brand new car from the dealership for less then a used one listed at Autotrader or Cars.com will be the only choice you and I would ever make given the prices you and I are quoting.
I do also know for a fact that I priced new Corollas with comparable features and 12-15 LESS MPG than the Civic in the upper 17,000s before I even went to a dealer. Maybe you and others could get $1000 off of that price, and more power to you, but that still does not change the listed prices.
___I know I can pick up an 05 Corolla LE w/ Auto as equipped for < $17,000 and if I forgo the alloys and wait 2 more months for the $500 rebate, it will only cost $16,200!
Focus on this statement: All I am trying to show here is that there IS NO FACTUAL BASIS to ASSUME that EVERY HYBRID purchase is a rock-headed, financially unsound decision - because there is NO WAY that is true. And Many, if not Most, of the media articles are leaning that way, if not outright declaring it as fact !!
___I am not saying there is absolutely no reason to purchase a Hybrid as there are any number of other reasons one might do so. When comparing the Hybrid’s total overall costs including the fuel savings vs. the non-hybrid however, it does not add up is all.
Wayne, you know as well as I do that it is WAY easier to get "hypermiles" on an HCH, with a display that helps you, than it is on a Corolla, where you do not have a live readout and basically have to go by feel.
___With all the tips and tricks I have posted over at Greenhybrid, it is a lot easier to achieve Hypermileage status in a non-Hybrid then with in all but a deep inner city environment. Hybrid’s (the Prius II included) have a much larger fuel economy loss in percentage of EPA estimates vs. the non-Hybrid’s in the real world. I have seen CR’s articles stating this more then once. A game gauge is nice but that 751 mile tank in the non-game gauged equipped Corolla the last time I drove it for a week should speak volumes In other words, I would hope to achieve the excellent fuel economy that both Hot_Georgia_2004 and Kenny have achieved in their HCH’s of around 57 mpg overall just as I would expect to achieve an overall 45 - 47 mpg in the Corolla LE w/ Auto when I drive exclusively over the same period. The numbers from the Corolla speak for themselves if you haven’t looked them up with tank over tank fuel economy detail as to who was driving her and over what distances.
And you know too that the "TCO/cost per mile" data is a broad generality that will vary greatly owner by owner.
___I don’t doubt that statement one bit given the maintenance costs are so far above what I have experienced in the real world on the Hybrid and all my non-Hybrid’s alike. I do know however that I can beat Edmunds purchase prices on a non-Hybrid of similar size/feature/amenity (Civic EX or Corolla LE for example) quite easily. For a Hybrid, not a chance right now unfortunately :-( With that, the non-Hybrid’s real world TCO is far less then what Edmunds posts and I would suspect the Hybrid is overstated as well. The item of note however is that the Hybrid’s are overstated by less then the non-Hybrid’s given the purchase prices and even the way fuel costs are calculated
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
If you are daft enough to believe Autotrader asking prices are real world transaction numbers, I have listed a 99 Acura TL with 124030 miles on Autotrader for only $19999.
I do also know for a FACT that the price for the Civic EX I shopped the night I bought my HCH was only $1524 less than the HCH I ended up choosing.
And how do you KNOW that? You are comparing the haggled down price you paid for your HCH vs the asking price for the EX. Nobody in their right minds would pay 17800 for a used 04 Civic EX when you can get a brand new 04 Accord LX for a few hundred more.
It would be appreciated by me and constructive for all if you would GO LOOK FOR YOUR DANG SELF and quit challenging me when I have REPEATEDLY quoted REAL CARS for ACTUAL SALE with CURRENT DATA. Here is how to do the search AGAIN so you can SEE FOR YOURSELF:
Autotrader.com, new cars, Honda Civic, 2004, Zip code 85034, 25 miles. The top seven or eight cars are the ones I am talking about.
OK? Multiple cars, NOT a misprint....
Thank You...........
___Sorry I missed your previous post
Wayne, it looks like to me your commute is quite long, minimum ride is 97 minutes, is that data accurate? And your tires are at 50 PSI? WHEW, that's way up there amigo !!! I'm at 38 PSI on mine, and have drifted down to 35 PSI on occasion.
___This is just one of the reasons why you are not reaching the fuel economy that either Kenny or Hot_Georgia_2004 in their HCH’s are achieving. I am comparing my 45 - 47 mpg to there 57 mpg w/ similar tire pressures and similar A/C usage of little to none. If you want to compare the Corolla’s 52 vs. your HCH’s 52 mpg be my guest but it wouldn’t be fair to you and your HCH. And yes, ~ 90 minute commute in the Corolla and ~ 120 minutes in the Insight as I drive her a bit slower to reach the truly hypermileage fuel economy that I do in the “Little Red Beauty”
My MPG will continue to go up as I learn and develop more driving tricks, and will CERTAINLY get a big boost in October when it cools down here enough to stop using A/C for about five months.
___And I hope it will soon as well. 52 in a HCH is not all that great given all you know about Hypermiling. Remember, ~ 35 mph is the perfect speed to achieve maximum fuel economy. Once you learn to time those lights, you may just achieve even better but right now, you are just matching my last full tank of the Corolla. I cannot do a thing about the heat you experience in Phoenix as I was using MAX A/C in the Le Sabre we rented when there last month. You can see that behemoths mileage details in a thread over at our favorite Hybrid site of interest also.
___Finally, if you do in fact finally achieve a 57 mpg overall average in your HCH, you would have probably been able to achieve 45 mpg overall in a Civic EX as well. The “city” thing is the big question however?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
So - stay on topic or find a more appropriate discussion. Further off-topic posts will be removed, no courtesy of sending you your post to re-post in another discussion. Just a heads up.
www.canadiandriver.com has a good HCH article - oldish but still relevant:
"B.C. or Bust: Driving across Canada in a Honda Civic Hybrid, Part One by Paul Williams "
Source: http://www.freep.com/news/politics/kerry7_20040807.htm
I know that Kerry has recently offered up a similar "cash back" plan, but I can't find the reference right now.
How do you feel about incentivizing hybrid buyers? Should it be more or less? We're looking at a product that currently sells as fast as it's produced (often even before it's produced) and the manufacturers are making as many as they can. Is hyrid consumption thus a behavior that needs incentivizing? Could the money be better spent on incentivizing potential parts (battery!) manufacturers so that production could be increased to meet demand?
I'd love to hear any and all opinions! (but hey, let's try and keep pure politics out of it)
kirstie_h
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Maybe an incentive (or completely pay for) diesel drivers who convert to use "veggie oil" or maybe a percentage rebate for diesel drivers who purchase "bio-diesel" for their vehicles - say if they provide $1000 in valid bio-diesel receipts they get a $200 rebate or something like that maybe?
I have read that the "do it yourself" conversion to using "used" veggie fry oil is fairly simple.
But the chemicals released from diesel exhaust are not changed, car versus truck. Just more or less of them.
http://www.ema-online.org/greenlight_2003_summer_cover_story.htm
Well, here is your debate. They call it a Civic because that is the car chasis they used. It would be pretty confusing otherwise. The mechanical underpinnings are compeletely different. It even has a different engine. I consider the EX to be the top of the line; the Hybrid is more or less the same as the EX, only more expensive. I don't doubt that dealers trying to sell the most expensive car are touting the Hybrid as the top of the line. They are out to make commissions, based on the sale price.
I suspect that buyers of the Cadillac Diesel engines in the 1980s were told their models were the top of the line, due to price. The engines proved unreliable, and the cars had very poor resale.
"And the "costs down the line" don't matter when you have an extended warranty, and they CERTAINLY do not matter at resale time."
Tell it to the mechanic if the battery back has to be replaced or the electric component of the transmission has to be fixed. Extended warranties only go to 100K miles.
"To prove my point perfectly: Has anyone EVER heard of ANY car that will "sell for less" at resale time "BECAUSE OF SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BREAK" later? That's just not reality my friend."
Yup, I have heard of it. It's called poor reliability, and you can find it on some car websites in convenient black circles, or here on the Edmunds site. We simply don't know how well this stuff will survive the years. Resale value is calculated professionally by KBB, and takes into account things like the reliablity of the drive train, which is what the Hybrid is - a drivetrain technology.
I see stevedbi has already given you an excellent answer, so I have just 2 words for you.
BMW 740.
It doesn't serve much of a purpose either.
Comparing IMA to HSD makes a whole lot more sense.
That way, you could choose the vehicle of your liking instead. After all, that's the way Toyota is planning to offer hybrid systems by 2010 anyway.
JOHN
Many are simply poorly informed and thrive on the stories that will draw a lot of attention.
Virtually ever single article I have ever read on hybrids have had several errors in it. They just guess about how HSD works, which leads to incorrect performance estimates.
The most common error is assuming 15 MPH is the upper limit for the electric drive (aka "Stealth").
In reality, it is actually a 10kW. If you remain under that draw on the battery-pack, the charge-level is above 42 percent, and the catalytic-converter is hot, you can maintain up to 42 MPH (for around 3 miles under ideal conditions). You can even accelerate from a dead stop to 42 MPH without the engine starting.
JOHN
What I MEANT by the "sell for less because of something that might break later" is that cars will not sell for less because of UNKNOWN things that might break later.
Reliability Ratings are based on "Known past problems." NOT on "this part is in the car and it's reliability is not known so the car is losing value". THAT is what I meant.
Hmmm, that is the whole point. We do not know at this point what the resale effects will be. If the vehicle proves utterly reliable, it will have good resale. I'm sorry, I thought you knew we were talking about an unknown factor at this point. It could go either way.
When it comes time to sell a used hybrid, the need for replacements (as measured in reliability data) due to the hybrid drivetrain will be part of the resale value equation. Those buying now will face whichever future turns out to be correct. That is why I said that the effect of the hybrid technology on resale is uncertain at this point...
A handful of owners have already taken it upon themselves to prove this substantially improves the power & efficiency of the system by doing exactly that. So we know for a fact that the potential exists. It's just a matter of using it.
Imagine what that could do to the resale market with the knowledge that the system can be enhanced beyond what it was actually sold as. The vehicle could retain value beyond what many had ever anticipated.
JOHN
Man, are we way off topic again !!
What I mean is that "just because it is new" does not mean it has questionable reliability. Plus, the separate parts of the "hybrid drivetrain" in the HCH at least are minimal - it's a little electric motor that is hooked into the transmission - not a lot of "STUFF" per se to break or to worry about.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that YES, just like any other NEW CAR, we do not know at this point what the future reliability will be. HOWEVER: this IS after all a HONDA CIVIC, which over the long history of this model line maintained superior reliability and resale value.
I'm saying THAT history should be more of an indicator than unknown factors.
How about this...this discussion is for pasting in URLs to NEWS ARTICLES. Any posts after the linke NOT relating the the NEWS ARTICLE will be DELETED - and without the courtesy email.
Good point, John, it could go either way. Haven't seen any news articles on this point, however (there, that should satisfy the hosts)...
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MXI/is_2_24/ai_113855- 208
http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_honda_high_accord/index.htm
Someone sees the forest and the trees - snip - DETROIT – Honda Motor Co. Ltd.’s new Accord hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) will be profitable, vows President and CEO Takeo Fukui, who hints a hybrid light truck could be in the company’s future."
Yeah, people over in the CR-V forum are hoping that is the vehicle. It would be a slam dunk, since the CR-V already gets 27 MPG highway, and the US model has an empty well under the cargo floor, perfect for a battery pack.
190 HP K24A (front wheels) and 60 HP IMA (rear wheels) was the powertrain in Acura RDX concept after all! And speaking of RDX, could it be the light truck? RDX is being rumored to be built in Ohio, shortly.
I like it, but keep in mind that this idea is not an IMA - it is an independent electric motor. IMA is an electric motor in line with the transmission. You are suggesting replacing the transmission in the rear with a separate electric motor.
Fuel efficient vehicles.
"The RD-X is designed to be powered by a unique 250 horsepower, 4-wheel drive, hybrid powertrain that combines a high-output i-VTEC(TM) engine with an Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system. Under the hood is a high performance 2.4-liter, 16-valve, DOHC 4-cylinder engine coupled to 6-speed, close-ratio clutchless manual transmission, which drives the front wheels, while the advanced IMA system powers the rear wheels."
2001 Honda Dualnote (also showcased as 2002 Acura DNX) also utilized IMA in an AWD format for a total of 400 HP. Here are schematics of how the hybrid AWD system was set up (you will notice some similarity to the SH-AWD in RL because both utilize ATTS).
Pulling Away: Electric motors drive the front wheels to move the vehicle smoothly away from rest. The motors also work in concert with the gasoline engine to boost power for sportier driving.
Acceleration During Cornering: By providing optimal torque distribution to each of the four wheels, Honda IMA accurately responds to driver inputs and road surface conditions to assure that the car accurately traces the intended drive path.
Normal Cornering: During normal cornering when the car is not accelerating, the system activates regenerative braking of the front inside motor employing the torque difference between inner and outer wheels. This improves cornering capability and efficiently recoups energy.
In the second picture, you will see that the inside front wheel has less power compared to the others, although the sole power provider is the electric motor (and controlled via the “IMA box”). IMA isn't just the electric motor, it is the complete system (including the controller).
"A 2004 Civic LX gasoline sedan with manual transmission and many comparable features carried a starting MSRP that was some $4,000 less."
First of all, why not compare with EX? After all, Hybrid has the same features (minus one or two, plus one or two) compared to that model. And nobody does math between EX and LX!
I'm glad Honda is emphasizing on something other than pure economy with launch of Accord Hybrid.
Why not compare against the LX? After all, Hybrid has the same features (minus one or two, plus one or two) compared to that model. Oh, that is what they did, that is logical. C'mon Robert, this comparison has been rehashed here so many times and the EX with auto actual selling price is under $16,000 right now anyway and the LX to Hybrid selling price difference is actually greater than $5000, not $4000. (It must REALLY chap the rear end of hybrid owners that they paid $4000 and will not save money on their purchase)
If someone really wants a Hybrid, they are not going to buy an EX or LX. They will be shopping the Prius vs. HCH vs. other available hybrids.
You can find faults with nearly any article and this one was a very superficial one, not an in depth tecnical comparison.
That said, selling price is dictated by demand and supply. Low inventory turnaround time = greater premium. Is HCH still selling at MSRP? If it is, then people seem to be willing to pay for it more than they are about other trims. Simple. I don’t see how you could use this as an argument against.
Unless I were shopping for these cars, and letting dealers fight over pricing, I prefer using MSRP based “universal” comparison.
Anyone who pays $4000 more for a Hybrid than a "comparably equipped" LX/DX/EX is just a fool.
I paid $1524 more for a Hybrid than an EX on the lot the same night that I could have purchased that met my needs as well EXCEPT for the extra 15 MPG of the Hybrid.
Anyone who can't get a Civic EX Manual for less than 16000 is just not trying. Show me where a new HCH Manual is available for 17300 and I will buy one. Name the dealer.
Now - if you want to discuss pricing, etc. please go to the topic for that vehicle.