"Neither is perfect, but the bottom line is getting the job done without much fuss. If you want to get to the details, provide facts, not statements.".
A better design has less compromises. Therefore, less trade offs. Look at the results of HCH and Prius to get a clue!
___Well it looks like Honda created a typo as the Accord I4 w/ a stick has performed at the 7.5 second level from 0 to 60 but I have never seen an Accord V6 that slow. You can look them up for yourself the next time you visit your local library.
Power and performance are totally different animal. RX400H has more power than HAH. Will it perform better? That's a different question. I say, acceleration on highway will be owned by 400H. Cornering, braking, etc... will be different. After all, they are two different type of vehicles.
My original statement compared power, fuel economy, and low emission between HSD and IMA. I used those two cars as an example. I did not intend to compare it's performance from two different class of vehicle. EOD.
"And that was my point. Cars don’t yield proportional returns with cost. Accord DX will save you more money than any other Accord trim could, but then there is the endless desire for more (power and features) and that adds to the cost."
Very true. But who will be attracted? The green crowd looking for lower emission? Nope. Those for better fuel economy? Maybe. They can always go for 4 cylinder Accord as well. Those looking for more power? Maybe. HAH only offer 15 more horsepower which is 6% improvement!
My point is that IMA contributed so little in this Accord Hybrid that you will not see many people attracted to it like Prius. IMA improved 22% fuel economy and 6% power increase and 0% lower emission. Will that be enough for hybrid buyers? That's the basic question. On another note, HSD can offer much more. I am trying get people see my point, at least, and wait for better full hybrid family sedans within a year.
"Well it looks like Honda created a typo as the Accord I4 w/ a stick has performed at the 7.5 second level from 0 to 60 but I have never seen an Accord V6 that slow."
Honda would make a typo on their PR news release? Maybe testing procedure is different from Honda engineers and other magazine testers? Maybe Honda doesn't rev up the engine in neutral and drop into drive which damages the auto tranny. Who knows? I would take Honda's official figures since they designed and produce the cars.
Power and performance are totally different animal.
___Would you care to clue us all in on the last time you drove a test stand to work and back? Most of us drive a car, truck, SUV with 4 wheels that actually weighs something unlike your test stand.
I say, acceleration on highway will be owned by 400H.
___You can say whatever you want but the straight up V6 in the Accord is already a great performer and kills the std. RX or Highlander let alone the boost it will receive with the extra 100 Ft.-Lb’s off the pack vs. the boost the TRXh or THH will receive from their respective packs.
Cornering, braking, etc... will be different.
___You bet they will be different. The V6 Accord sedan is already a great handling automobile which far surpasses that of the RX or Highlander. This is just one of the reasons the Accord is a 10 Best year after year. With hybridization, it will be that much quicker
Betamax was technically superior to VHS. We know what happened to Betamax. The best technology doesn't always win in the long run. That's why I suggested that a long-term view is appropriate on the IMA vs. HSD debate. The applications of both IMA and HSD are still pretty limited. Besides, comparing two different technologies on aspects such as power and fuel efficiency makes sense only if the manufacturers intended to compete on those aspects. It is clear to me that Honda's and Toyota's engineers had different design goals in mind for their respective solutions. As for which is "better" engineering-wise or technology-wise... who really cares as long as they perform their intended functions with a high quality of service at a reasonable cost?
___Why wouldn’t they make a typo. We both know the Accord I4 w/ manual is a 7.5 second to 60 automobile. Do you think the 240 HP V6 w/ Auto is slower? In other words, you are dreaming as the acceleration numbers from the car mags prove it again and again. The V6 is a sub 7 second to 60 automobile in almost every review I have ever read.
___Maybe you didn’t read about my little test drive in an Accord I4 w/ Auto sedan in an EX-L w/ NAVI trim the other night. Here it is again for you to enjoy
I don’t know about all of you but I took a brand new 04 Accord 4 door sedan with the I4 in an EX-L w/ NAVI trim out for a run tonight. It has just 15 miles on the odometer. The 28 mile round trip consisted of 15 miles city and 13 miles of State and Interstate highway. I reset the FCD before I left the parking lot and had a 44.3 mpg average for the entire run with the Instantaneous pegged at 50 mpg (that is as high as it goes) at anything below 58 mph out on the highway. Who needs a hybrid when a brand new $22,500 Accord EX-L w/ NAVI sedan can receive > 50 mpg out on the highway? I did have the service department take the tires up to 40 #’s all around before the test drive so that helped. A non-broken in vehicle though? Darn thing was offering better fuel economy brand new then my 03 Corolla LE w/ Auto and I run her with Mobil1 0W-20 Synthetic and 50 #’s in the Integrity’s Then again, the I4 wouldn’t do 0 - 60 anywhere near the less then 7 seconds of the HAH but I don’t accelerate nearly that fast anyway ;-)
___In other words, in an automobile that receives less fuel economy then the AH, I was clearly south of 50 mpg while on the highway. Add an 18 gallon fill and you clearly have > 967 mile range in a std. equipped Accord let alone the more efficient V6 AH. The AH w/ IMA will absolutely kill the 967 miles range performed by Bill while driving an average speed of 32 mph in his Toyota w/ HSD. Care to look at the world record range of the IMA equipped Insight as well? You can post the dash pic if you want. You do remember 1,523 miles on a single tank, right. You can post the dash pics as I won’t cause you any problem with copyright infringement. I promise ;-)
___As for the UFE-I and II, I have been posting about that car long before you even knew what a Hybrid was. Guess what. Where can you buy it? Maybe you didn’t know about the world record for fuel economy set by the French earlier this year 10,700 mpg. The previous was held by a Japanese entry at slightly greater then 10,200 mpg. Again, guess what. You cannot purchase those cars let alone drive one down the street either. Then again, where is the IMA equipped Honda IMAS?
0 – 60 in less then 8 seconds and an EPA estimated 94 mpg.
Exactly. But, how do you count compromises? Ideas?
Oh, and regarding 0-60 times, are you sure you haven't read about Accord V6 doing the job consistently under 7.0s (at least twice at 6.5s), yet Honda "claims" 8.0s for it. Thats "being conservative".
Yes--so being technically superior in other aspects didn't help Betamax much, did it? Long-term success depends on meeting the needs of the market better than competitors--not on having the best technology.
I have some first-hand experience here. Years ago, I worked for a software company that had better technology than its closest rival. My company decided to put its resources into a new generation of its flagship product--to extend their technical lead. The competitor threw its resources into sales and marketing. My old company no longer exists. The other company, Oracle, is now one of the largest software companies in the world.
Deduct continues to sunset entirely at the end of 2006. - snip - Congress Restores $2,000 Hybrid Car Tax Credit - Under current law, the value of the deduction was to have been reduced by 25 percent, to $1,500 this year, and reduced by an additional 25 percent in 2005. http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=661- 2
VHS won the battle due to licensing, plain & simple. The fact that it wasn't technically the "best" choice for quality is a fantastic reality. Not everyone's priority is the same. Designs need to accommodate that type of flexibility to be successful... or just happen to be exactly in the right place at the right time.
The video-tape was a brand new opportunity the porn industry could capitalize on. And they did, big time! They purchased licenses in large quantities and flooded the royalty holders with massive piles of money. Sony absolutely refused to allow that type of content to be distributed on BetaMax. So the momentum for VHS players and VHS rentals had a boost that put that format over the edge, giving it both a monetary and a volume advantage BetaMax couldn't compete with.
And as you have probably already guessed, HSD is designed with flexibility in mind. The ability to favor emissions, efficiency, power, or any combination in-between are all possible... and it just happens to be in exactly the right place and exactly the right time.
Today, the cost of oil just climbed another 76 cents above the highest price ever, putting it at $49.64 per barrel. That is a horrifying reality that clearly points to gas prices climbing to the highest price ever. That puts Toyota is a very, very favorable position to capitalize on.
"Betamax was technically superior to VHS. We know what happened to Betamax. The best technology doesn't always win in the long run."
Very true. A great example but not quite. Prius succeed not because of of it's technology alone. Toyota marketing department did a wonder job as well. Car industry isn't like VCR as only one technology can be the standard. For cars, superior technology could mean a different class, i.e: super cars.
Toyota is licensing it's technology to Ford, Nissan and could be in talk with other manufactures(maybe Hyundai). On the other hand, Honda decided not to license it's hybrid technology to anyone but themselves.
You seem to be making an inference here that Betamax = HSD in my analogy. That is not the case. I am making no conclusions here about whether HSD or IMA is technically "superior." My point is that other factors will ultimately determine the technologies that survive and thrive in the marketplace long-term. Licensing strategy is a good example of one of these factors.
"VHS won the battle due to licensing, plain & simple. The fact that it wasn't technically the "best" choice for quality is a fantastic reality"
If you have not noticed VHS and Betamax are on the scrap heap of technology. DVD is the medium of choice this year. Prius may be the choice for 2004. There is no way you can predict with any degree of surety that HSD will survive past 2006. It is still overpriced with no proof that it is going to be a money maker for any auto maker.
As far as oil prices, OPEC is happy at $30 per barrel. The futures prices are part of the commodities game.
As of today oil prices are $50 a barrel. It probably won't come down significantly anytime soon, that is the reality. It might come down a bit if the Saudis do increase production but $30 a barrel is pretty unrealistic. If you look at the long term picture say another 10 to 20 years oil prices will generally trend upward given very high demand from China, India and other East Asian countries and coupled with limited refining capacity. The fact is hybrid cars are going to get a bigger slice of the pie in the years ahead until hydrogen fuel cell cars become available.
There is no way you can predict with any degree of surety that HSD will survive past 2006.
You could say the same thing about IMA. How profitable has it been to date for Honda? And it is about as "overpriced" as is HSD, with a premium of about $3000.
As of today oil prices are $50 a barrel. It probably won't come down significantly anytime soon, that is the reality. It might come down a bit if the Saudis do increase production but $30 a barrel is pretty unrealistic
While this does seem the likely scenario, many of us remember the horror of gas lines and skyrocketing prices in the late 70's, with prophecies of the demise of low fuel costs forever. The impending doom of gas-powered vehicles was widely reported. Premature, they were - I remember the gas station by my house in 1999 offering $0.78/gallon.
The situation is different now, but so may be the resolution, including looking to Chile & Russia for increased production.
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How did you figure a difference of $3K for HSD? While not exactly utilizing HSD, there is one other “full hybrid” (Ford Escape) and the premium for that thing is about $7K (2.3/auto tops out at about $22K and HEV with its 2.3/CVT tops out at $29K). I have not compared these two based on features, but I assume “top of the line” would include similar content. BTW, Escape HEV also weighs 366 lb. more than the (equivalent) non-hybrid version.
It will be interesting to see how HSD affects the price tag and curb weight of RX400H when it comes around. Until then…
Based on comparison of Prius to next-closest ICE vehicle in Toyota's lineup (Matrix) and Escape hybrid compared to closest traditional Escape (with V6, closest in performance to the hybrid's).
Key Thought: "Other reasons to stick with a single-fuel gasoline engine - gas-electric hybrid systems are complex. Reliability is unknown. Only dealers will be able to fix them should a problem occur. Repair costs will outstrip any saving at the pump"
That’s a bad way to draw conclusion. There are just too many variables that go unaccounted for. Matrix is essentially Corolla (Toyota now adds Matrix sales to Corolla’s), so are you now suggesting that Prius should be compared to Corolla?
And you give another twist to the Escape issue. Why would you compare weight and cost that a hybrid system brings based on performance? And simply based on that, if Accord Hybrid is faster than Accord V6 (Honda claims to be, and output ratings suggest that), you couldn’t compare HAH to any of the lesser Accords, could you? Yet, you manage to come up with a $3K price difference thing. How did you do that? Didn’t you use EXV6 as a baseline since HAH’s hybrid power train is based off it? So, why wouldn’t you do the same in case of Escape (or an HSD system, if it were available in a vehicle that holds the conventional powerplant as well)?
Speaking of reliability of hybrid system, here are couple of excerpts from “What” (UK) magazine (and link to the article follows)
‘In 103,000 miles, the IMA technology has been faultless – the car is still running its original battery and I’ve never had a breakdown,’ he said.
Over 103,000 miles, the company says the car would also have saved him more than £4500 in petrol costs over an equivalent saloon – the car’s combined fuel consumption is 83.1mpg.
Before you critize my thinking, why don't you mosey on over to toyota.com and check out the figures on these two cars? Same configuration (five-door hatchback), very close in size and capacity and interior room. I think it is as good a comparison as any--better than a comparison to a four-door sedan like the Corolla or Camry or Accord IMO. Please suggest a better comparison for the Prius--since there is no ICE-only version as there is for the Accord, Civic, and Escape.
The HAH has a whopping 6% increase in horsepower over the V6 Accord. I think that is close enough to warrant a price comparison of the HAH to the EX V6. It is better than comparing it to the 160 hp 4-cylinder Accords, IMO. Similarly, I compared the Escape hybrid to the similar-power V6 Escape. I think buyers will be making that comparison. If they are OK with the low-power 4-cylinder, in either the Accord or Escape, I believe that's what they'll buy vs. spending many thousands more on the hybrid versions.
I notice you didn't mention the Civic. HCH 5-speed is $20,140 MSRP, EX with SABs is $18,000. Figure in the moonroof and wheel/tire upgrade and $3000 is about right.
quote-"Key Thought: "Other reasons to stick with a single-fuel gasoline engine - gas-electric hybrid systems are complex. Reliability is unknown. Only dealers will be able to fix them should a problem occur. Repair costs will outstrip any saving at the pump"-end quote
This is more conjecture than truth. We have more than 3 years of the 2001 Prius cars in the USA and there are no reports of excessive repair costs. They appear to be just as reliable as other 2001 Toyota cars.
Toyota has been selling Prius cars in Japan since 1997, and again, no reports of massive repair costs - and we WOULD have heard about through web forums and news stories. Some of those 1997 Priuses would likely have 90,000 miles on them.
Just because something is "new" does not mean it will necessarily be a repair risk......
Before you critize my thinking, why don't you mosey on over to toyota.com and check out the figures on these two cars? Same configuration (five-door hatchback), very close in size and capacity and interior room. I think it is as good a comparison as any--better than a comparison to a four-door sedan like the Corolla or Camry or Accord IMO.
As long as we’re consistent in thoughts, I don’t think this would be a problem. Haven’t you been a part of discussion where Prius was compared far more to Camry than anything else in the Toyota lineup?
The HAH has a whopping 6% increase in horsepower over the V6 Accord. I think that is close enough to warrant a price comparison of the HAH to the EX V6.
If power differential (in percentage or not) is the key, what makes it more valid to compare Escape HEV (155 HP) to Escape V6 (200 HP) than to Escape I-4 (133 HP)? The bottom line is that Escape HEV builds upon the I-4 model to achieve better performance with improved fuel economy. This “bottom-line” bodes well with the Accord Hybrid to Accord EXV6 comparison as well, and that’s being consistent.
I notice you didn't mention the Civic. HCH 5-speed is $20,140 MSRP, EX with SABs is $18,000. Figure in the moonroof and wheel/tire upgrade and $3000 is about right.
When was cost of IMA in question? The point we may be digressing from was cost of HSD that you opted to put at $3K.
"This is more conjecture than truth. We have more than 3 years of the 2001 Prius cars in the USA and there are no reports of excessive repair costs. They appear to be just as reliable as other 2001 Toyota cars."
I would not expect to have any problems with a car that is only 3 years old. From my experience some of the first problems in many cars are starters, generators & alternators. Now in the hype surrounding the Prius they claim their motors will last "FOREVER". Last time I checked they are all electric motors/generators. What makes one last forever and the others quit with little usage? I have asked this question of the Prius crowd several times and always get ignored. What all is covered by the generous 10 year 100k/150k warranty? If it is just the battery that is not much of a warranty. I think on unproven technology the government should force the automakers to cover the entire car for 10 years or 100k miles. Contractors are liable for houses they build for 10 years in many places. Why do they get away with skimpy warranties on cars?
quote-"From the canadiandriver article: "although these vehicles come at something of a premium price, their thrifty use of fuel will ultimately take care of the extra costs" Yeah, right. Man, this guy is dreaming. Guess he must keep his cars for 10+ years and figures everyone else does too..."-end quote
Other boards on this website will indicate owners who will get their "Hybrid premium" back fairly quickly, 4-5 years. It's not a "dream" in some cases.....
I have been in discussions about Camry vs. Prius--but as someone who doesn't think it is a good comparison in general because it's two different kinds of cars: four-door sedan to a five-door hatchback. But if others want to cross-shop them, that's their business.
OK, I'll grant you that Ford is overcharging for the Escape hybrid or perhaps hasn't figured out (as has Toyota) to keep the costs down on their hybrid system. Given this is Ford's first hybrid, that isn't unexpected. Their costs should come down in time.
As you will recall, you brought IMA into the discussion with the HAH. It is getting very irritating in these discussions to try to reply to someone's post, then be taken to task because I mention a topic that someone else has brought up.
"OK, I'll grant you that Ford is overcharging for the Escape hybrid or perhaps hasn't figured out (as has Toyota) to keep the costs down on their hybrid system."
Why would you say that Ford is overcharging for the Escape? TMV for a fully loaded AWD with NAV is $28,945. That is less than many people are paying for the much smaller and less practical Prius. I'm sure Ford will do their best to regain second place from Toyota.
Yeah, right. Man, this guy is dreaming. Guess he must keep his cars for 10+ years and figures everyone else does too
It doesn't matter how long the original owner keeps the car. If maintenance is suspect after 8 years, that car's resale price after 4 years will reflect that.
Other boards on this website will indicate owners who will get their "Hybrid premium" back fairly quickly, 4-5 years. It's not a "dream" in some cases.....
I am interested in the ingenuous math that results in the Hybrid premium paid back in 4-5 years. Do you have the numbers.
quote-"I am interested in the ingenuous math that results in the Hybrid premium paid back in 4-5 years. Do you have the numbers."-end quote
Do a search on this thread for posts by me, larsb. I have one there which details a few numbers for my specific purchase. Many people argued, but my numbers are solid.
For as much as these types of estimates can be done, I am looking at being $162 in the black after 4 years.
Surely that is a tiny amount, but it is far less than a 10-year payback timeframe.
Remember however that one specific owner's case does not reverse the fact that most Hybrid premiums will never be repaid by gas savings alone.
Yeah, I remember your numbers. You claimed that your HCH costs $1380 more in real-world dollars to buy than a Civic EX. That's what I call "ingenuous".
quote-"Yeah, I remember your numbers. You claimed that your HCH costs $1380 more in real-world dollars to buy than a Civic EX. That's what I call "ingenuous".-end quote"
Actually, I paid $1524 more than an EX on the lot that I was also considering that same night.
The $1340 you recall is from Autotrader.com ads on the day I made the post that showed actual EX and HCH cars, in Phoenix, only $1340 apart on the advertised sales price, and the FACT that Edmunds shows the difference in MSRP between the lowest priced HCH and the highest priced EX in BASE MSRP as $1340.
Nothing "ingenuous", just stating factual numbers. I realize some of you may not want facts in here cluttering up your "perfectly good" arguments, but I like to present them anyway.
"When was cost of IMA in question? The point we may be digressing from was cost of HSD that you opted to put at $3K."
Honda and Ford buy battery and other electronic parts from 3rd parties. Toyota makes themselves eliminating middlemen. A study from Department of Energy report suggested the same cost for producing mild and full hybrids as well. Toyota reported profit from the classic Prius. Honda hasn't done the same for Insight and HCH yet!
Yeah, maybe if you drive 25-30K miles per year. Since most people are in the 12-15K range, I think a 7-8 year time frame is more realistic just to break even.
"What makes one last forever and the others quit with little usage? I have asked this question of the Prius crowd several times and always get ignored."
You'll notice that magnets are inside the case but outside the Armature coils. The whole Armature coil unit spin when supply with electricity. To get electricity to it, there are brushes that make contact to the spinning commutator. See the picture below: It is this brush that fail to contact and causes problem in the long run.
Brushless motor works in opposite conceptually. The magnets are at the center and Armature coils are placed outside. So, the only rotating part is the magnet and there isn't need for brushes anymore. This design is maintainence-free and highly reliable. See the picture and notice how the magnets are inside and coils are outside. Check out this animation as well. http://www.servomag.com/flash/2-pole/2pole-bldc-motor.html
The brushless electric motor that used in Prius has ball bearings and is completely sealed, I believe.
If we accept the premise that it's unfair to compare the hybrid Escape to the V6 Escape, then there's a huge price difference between the ICE Escape and hybrid Escape, e.g.
TMV of Escape hybrid AWD, no options: $28,595 TMV of Escape XLS automatic AWD, no options: $19,270.
"Many people" may be paying over $28k for a Prius--but I wouldn't. "Overcharging" is not the best way to say it. There is a huge price premium for the Escape hybrid compared to the 4-cylinder hybrid. Much less so for the V6--which was my point of comparison, but apparently others compare to the 4-cylinder so there you have it.
Quote-"Yeah, maybe if you drive 25-30K miles per year. Since most people are in the 12-15K range, I think a 7-8 year time frame is more realistic just to break even."-end Quote
Actually, the calculations that I used to estimate my $162 in the black after four years was based on a 12,000 per year chart at 48 mpg for the HCH versus 34 mpg for the EX. Go look at post # 461 on this board.
The more you drive, the faster you eat up the Hybrid premium...
Honda and Ford buy battery and other electronic parts from 3rd parties. Toyota makes themselves eliminating middlemen.
Where do you get these ideas? Yes, Honda is getting batteries from Sanyo (for Accord), but does Prius use “Toyota batteries”? And just so that you know, Honda makes its own electric motors (and has been, since it got started on it in 1989). Heck, even with its fuel cell vehicle, Honda is using its own fuel cell stack, its home grown electric motor and its own ultra capacitor!
May be you know something I don’t. BTW, how much “premium” do you expect on RX400H when it comes around? $3K?
In case of Honda (and even Ford), we can talk about “premium” since they have been applied on top of mainstream vehicles. In case of Honda, the “mild hybrid set up” seems to add about $2200 to the MSRP of Civic Hybrid compared to Civic EX (there are minor differences in features, but they should even out… HCH gets more refined interior, with more sound deadening/streamlining, auto climate control, EBD, alloy wheels and EX gets moonroof).
In case of Accord Hybrid, the difference is supposed to be greater, but there may be other reasons for it (including inclusion of VCM) but we will project it to be $3K.
Now when you say HSD premium is $3K like IMA’s, you must have a similar reasoning, correct? Is Matrix the best way to do it? We could have used Acura TL as a baseline since HAH and TL share platform, after all, and are similarly sized!
Comments
A better design has less compromises. Therefore, less trade offs. Look at the results of HCH and Prius to get a clue!
Dennis
___Well it looks like Honda created a typo as the Accord I4 w/ a stick has performed at the 7.5 second level from 0 to 60 but I have never seen an Accord V6 that slow. You can look them up for yourself the next time you visit your local library.
MT February 04. 2004 Accord V6 w/ Auto: 0 - 60 = 6.50 seconds
R&T February 03. 2003 Accord V6 w/ Auto: 0 - 60 = 7.30 seconds
C&D October 02. 2003 Accord V6 w/ Auto: 0 - 60 = 7.00 seconds
Average = 6.933 seconds
MT April 03. 2003 Accord LX I4 w/ Auto: 0 - 60 = 8.5 seconds
C&D February 03. 2003 Accord EX I4 w/ 5-speed manual: 0 - 60 = 7.5 seconds
___AH ~ 6.4 seconds.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Power and performance are totally different animal. RX400H has more power than HAH. Will it perform better? That's a different question. I say, acceleration on highway will be owned by 400H. Cornering, braking, etc... will be different. After all, they are two different type of vehicles.
My original statement compared power, fuel economy, and low emission between HSD and IMA. I used those two cars as an example. I did not intend to compare it's performance from two different class of vehicle. EOD.
Dennis
Very true. But who will be attracted? The green crowd looking for lower emission? Nope. Those for better fuel economy? Maybe. They can always go for 4 cylinder Accord as well. Those looking for more power? Maybe. HAH only offer 15 more horsepower which is 6% improvement!
My point is that IMA contributed so little in this Accord Hybrid that you will not see many people attracted to it like Prius. IMA improved 22% fuel economy and 6% power increase and 0% lower emission. Will that be enough for hybrid buyers? That's the basic question. On another note, HSD can offer much more. I am trying get people see my point, at least, and wait for better full hybrid family sedans within a year.
Dennis
Honda would make a typo on their PR news release? Maybe testing procedure is different from Honda engineers and other magazine testers? Maybe Honda doesn't rev up the engine in neutral and drop into drive which damages the auto tranny. Who knows? I would take Honda's official figures since they designed and produce the cars.
Dennis
Power and performance are totally different animal.
___Would you care to clue us all in on the last time you drove a test stand to work and back? Most of us drive a car, truck, SUV with 4 wheels that actually weighs something unlike your test stand.
I say, acceleration on highway will be owned by 400H.
___You can say whatever you want but the straight up V6 in the Accord is already a great performer and kills the std. RX or Highlander let alone the boost it will receive with the extra 100 Ft.-Lb’s off the pack vs. the boost the TRXh or THH will receive from their respective packs.
Cornering, braking, etc... will be different.
___You bet they will be different. The V6 Accord sedan is already a great handling automobile which far surpasses that of the RX or Highlander. This is just one of the reasons the Accord is a 10 Best year after year. With hybridization, it will be that much quicker
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Why wouldn’t they make a typo. We both know the Accord I4 w/ manual is a 7.5 second to 60 automobile. Do you think the 240 HP V6 w/ Auto is slower? In other words, you are dreaming as the acceleration numbers from the car mags prove it again and again. The V6 is a sub 7 second to 60 automobile in almost every review I have ever read.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Betamax was limited to 1 hour per tape - a FATAL flaw which made it "inferior" in the one area which mattered most at the time, thus it died.
The same thing is not likely to happen in this scenario - HSD and IMA will both probably evolve and survive together as two means to an end.
___Maybe you didn’t read about my little test drive in an Accord I4 w/ Auto sedan in an EX-L w/ NAVI trim the other night. Here it is again for you to enjoy
I don’t know about all of you but I took a brand new 04 Accord 4 door sedan with the I4 in an EX-L w/ NAVI trim out for a run tonight. It has just 15 miles on the odometer. The 28 mile round trip consisted of 15 miles city and 13 miles of State and Interstate highway. I reset the FCD before I left the parking lot and had a 44.3 mpg average for the entire run with the Instantaneous pegged at 50 mpg (that is as high as it goes) at anything below 58 mph out on the highway. Who needs a hybrid when a brand new $22,500 Accord EX-L w/ NAVI sedan can receive > 50 mpg out on the highway? I did have the service department take the tires up to 40 #’s all around before the test drive so that helped. A non-broken in vehicle though? Darn thing was offering better fuel economy brand new then my 03 Corolla LE w/ Auto and I run her with Mobil1 0W-20 Synthetic and 50 #’s in the Integrity’s Then again, the I4 wouldn’t do 0 - 60 anywhere near the less then 7 seconds of the HAH but I don’t accelerate nearly that fast anyway ;-)
___In other words, in an automobile that receives less fuel economy then the AH, I was clearly south of 50 mpg while on the highway. Add an 18 gallon fill and you clearly have > 967 mile range in a std. equipped Accord let alone the more efficient V6 AH. The AH w/ IMA will absolutely kill the 967 miles range performed by Bill while driving an average speed of 32 mph in his Toyota w/ HSD. Care to look at the world record range of the IMA equipped Insight as well? You can post the dash pic if you want. You do remember 1,523 miles on a single tank, right. You can post the dash pics as I won’t cause you any problem with copyright infringement. I promise ;-)
___As for the UFE-I and II, I have been posting about that car long before you even knew what a Hybrid was. Guess what. Where can you buy it? Maybe you didn’t know about the world record for fuel economy set by the French earlier this year 10,700 mpg. The previous was held by a Japanese entry at slightly greater then 10,200 mpg. Again, guess what. You cannot purchase those cars let alone drive one down the street either. Then again, where is the IMA equipped Honda IMAS?
0 – 60 in less then 8 seconds and an EPA estimated 94 mpg.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Exactly. But, how do you count compromises? Ideas?
Oh, and regarding 0-60 times, are you sure you haven't read about Accord V6 doing the job consistently under 7.0s (at least twice at 6.5s), yet Honda "claims" 8.0s for it. Thats "being conservative".
I have some first-hand experience here. Years ago, I worked for a software company that had better technology than its closest rival. My company decided to put its resources into a new generation of its flagship product--to extend their technical lead. The competitor threw its resources into sales and marketing. My old company no longer exists. The other company, Oracle, is now one of the largest software companies in the world.
We have a server that has been running OS/2 for 10 years without a hardware or software upgrade...try that with Windows.....:)
by 25 percent, to $1,500 this year, and reduced by an additional 25 percent in 2005.
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=661- 2
The video-tape was a brand new opportunity the porn industry could capitalize on. And they did, big time! They purchased licenses in large quantities and flooded the royalty holders with massive piles of money. Sony absolutely refused to allow that type of content to be distributed on BetaMax. So the momentum for VHS players and VHS rentals had a boost that put that format over the edge, giving it both a monetary and a volume advantage BetaMax couldn't compete with.
And as you have probably already guessed, HSD is designed with flexibility in mind. The ability to favor emissions, efficiency, power, or any combination in-between are all possible... and it just happens to be in exactly the right place and exactly the right time.
Today, the cost of oil just climbed another 76 cents above the highest price ever, putting it at $49.64 per barrel. That is a horrifying reality that clearly points to gas prices climbing to the highest price ever. That puts Toyota is a very, very favorable position to capitalize on.
JOHN
Very true. A great example but not quite. Prius succeed not because of of it's technology alone. Toyota marketing department did a wonder job as well. Car industry isn't like VCR as only one technology can be the standard. For cars, superior technology could mean a different class, i.e: super cars.
Toyota is licensing it's technology to Ford, Nissan and could be in talk with other manufactures(maybe Hyundai). On the other hand, Honda decided not to license it's hybrid technology to anyone but themselves.
Dennis
Dennis
If you have not noticed VHS and Betamax are on the scrap heap of technology. DVD is the medium of choice this year. Prius may be the choice for 2004. There is no way you can predict with any degree of surety that HSD will survive past 2006. It is still overpriced with no proof that it is going to be a money maker for any auto maker.
As far as oil prices, OPEC is happy at $30 per barrel. The futures prices are part of the commodities game.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/roadtest/hybrids.htm
You could say the same thing about IMA. How profitable has it been to date for Honda? And it is about as "overpriced" as is HSD, with a premium of about $3000.
While this does seem the likely scenario, many of us remember the horror of gas lines and skyrocketing prices in the late 70's, with prophecies of the demise of low fuel costs forever. The impending doom of gas-powered vehicles was widely reported. Premature, they were - I remember the gas station by my house in 1999 offering $0.78/gallon.
The situation is different now, but so may be the resolution, including looking to Chile & Russia for increased production.
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It will be interesting to see how HSD affects the price tag and curb weight of RX400H when it comes around. Until then…
Key Thought: "Other reasons to stick with a single-fuel gasoline engine - gas-electric hybrid systems are complex. Reliability is unknown. Only dealers will be able to fix them should a problem occur. Repair costs will outstrip any saving at the pump"
And you give another twist to the Escape issue. Why would you compare weight and cost that a hybrid system brings based on performance? And simply based on that, if Accord Hybrid is faster than Accord V6 (Honda claims to be, and output ratings suggest that), you couldn’t compare HAH to any of the lesser Accords, could you? Yet, you manage to come up with a $3K price difference thing. How did you do that? Didn’t you use EXV6 as a baseline since HAH’s hybrid power train is based off it? So, why wouldn’t you do the same in case of Escape (or an HSD system, if it were available in a vehicle that holds the conventional powerplant as well)?
‘In 103,000 miles, the IMA technology has been faultless – the car is still running its original battery and I’ve never had a breakdown,’ he said.
Over 103,000 miles, the company says the car would also have saved him more than £4500 in petrol costs over an equivalent saloon – the car’s combined fuel consumption is 83.1mpg.
Honda Finds Green Winner
The HAH has a whopping 6% increase in horsepower over the V6 Accord. I think that is close enough to warrant a price comparison of the HAH to the EX V6. It is better than comparing it to the 160 hp 4-cylinder Accords, IMO. Similarly, I compared the Escape hybrid to the similar-power V6 Escape. I think buyers will be making that comparison. If they are OK with the low-power 4-cylinder, in either the Accord or Escape, I believe that's what they'll buy vs. spending many thousands more on the hybrid versions.
I notice you didn't mention the Civic. HCH 5-speed is $20,140 MSRP, EX with SABs is $18,000. Figure in the moonroof and wheel/tire upgrade and $3000 is about right.
This is more conjecture than truth. We have more than 3 years of the 2001 Prius cars in the USA and there are no reports of excessive repair costs. They appear to be just as reliable as other 2001 Toyota cars.
Toyota has been selling Prius cars in Japan since 1997, and again, no reports of massive repair costs - and we WOULD have heard about through web forums and news stories. Some of those 1997 Priuses would likely have 90,000 miles on them.
Just because something is "new" does not mean it will necessarily be a repair risk......
As long as we’re consistent in thoughts, I don’t think this would be a problem. Haven’t you been a part of discussion where Prius was compared far more to Camry than anything else in the Toyota lineup?
The HAH has a whopping 6% increase in horsepower over the V6 Accord. I think that is close enough to warrant a price comparison of the HAH to the EX V6.
If power differential (in percentage or not) is the key, what makes it more valid to compare Escape HEV (155 HP) to Escape V6 (200 HP) than to Escape I-4 (133 HP)? The bottom line is that Escape HEV builds upon the I-4 model to achieve better performance with improved fuel economy. This “bottom-line” bodes well with the Accord Hybrid to Accord EXV6 comparison as well, and that’s being consistent.
I notice you didn't mention the Civic. HCH 5-speed is $20,140 MSRP, EX with SABs is $18,000. Figure in the moonroof and wheel/tire upgrade and $3000 is about right.
When was cost of IMA in question? The point we may be digressing from was cost of HSD that you opted to put at $3K.
I would not expect to have any problems with a car that is only 3 years old. From my experience some of the first problems in many cars are starters, generators & alternators. Now in the hype surrounding the Prius they claim their motors will last "FOREVER". Last time I checked they are all electric motors/generators. What makes one last forever and the others quit with little usage? I have asked this question of the Prius crowd several times and always get ignored. What all is covered by the generous 10 year 100k/150k warranty? If it is just the battery that is not much of a warranty. I think on unproven technology the government should force the automakers to cover the entire car for 10 years or 100k miles. Contractors are liable for houses they build for 10 years in many places. Why do they get away with skimpy warranties on cars?
"although these vehicles come at something of a premium price, their thrifty use of fuel will ultimately take care of the extra costs"
Yeah, right. Man, this guy is dreaming. Guess he must keep his cars for 10+ years and figures everyone else does too...
Other boards on this website will indicate owners who will get their "Hybrid premium" back fairly quickly, 4-5 years. It's not a "dream" in some cases.....
OK, I'll grant you that Ford is overcharging for the Escape hybrid or perhaps hasn't figured out (as has Toyota) to keep the costs down on their hybrid system. Given this is Ford's first hybrid, that isn't unexpected. Their costs should come down in time.
As you will recall, you brought IMA into the discussion with the HAH. It is getting very irritating in these discussions to try to reply to someone's post, then be taken to task because I mention a topic that someone else has brought up.
Why would you say that Ford is overcharging for the Escape? TMV for a fully loaded AWD with NAV is $28,945. That is less than many people are paying for the much smaller and less practical Prius. I'm sure Ford will do their best to regain second place from Toyota.
It doesn't matter how long the original owner keeps the car. If maintenance is suspect after 8 years, that car's resale price after 4 years will reflect that.
I am interested in the ingenuous math that results in the Hybrid premium paid back in 4-5 years. Do you have the numbers.
Do a search on this thread for posts by me, larsb. I have one there which details a few numbers for my specific purchase. Many people argued, but my numbers are solid.
For as much as these types of estimates can be done, I am looking at being $162 in the black after 4 years.
Surely that is a tiny amount, but it is far less than a 10-year payback timeframe.
Remember however that one specific owner's case does not reverse the fact that most Hybrid premiums will never be repaid by gas savings alone.
That's what I call "ingenuous".
Actually, I paid $1524 more than an EX on the lot that I was also considering that same night.
The $1340 you recall is from Autotrader.com ads on the day I made the post that showed actual EX and HCH cars, in Phoenix, only $1340 apart on the advertised sales price, and the FACT that Edmunds shows the difference in MSRP between the lowest priced HCH and the highest priced EX in BASE MSRP as $1340.
Nothing "ingenuous", just stating factual numbers. I realize some of you may not want facts in here cluttering up your "perfectly good" arguments, but I like to present them anyway.
Honda and Ford buy battery and other electronic parts from 3rd parties. Toyota makes themselves eliminating middlemen. A study from Department of Energy report suggested the same cost for producing mild and full hybrids as well. Toyota reported profit from the classic Prius. Honda hasn't done the same for Insight and HCH yet!
Dennis
Gary,
You need to understand how traditional electric motors work first. Here is a site with very good explanation with pictures.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/motor2.htm
You'll notice that magnets are inside the case but outside the Armature coils. The whole Armature coil unit spin when supply with electricity. To get electricity to it, there are brushes that make contact to the spinning commutator. See the picture below:
It is this brush that fail to contact and causes problem in the long run.
Brushless motor works in opposite conceptually. The magnets are at the center and Armature coils are placed outside. So, the only rotating part is the magnet and there isn't need for brushes anymore. This design is maintainence-free and highly reliable. See the picture and notice how the magnets are inside and coils are outside.
Check out this animation as well.
http://www.servomag.com/flash/2-pole/2pole-bldc-motor.html
The brushless electric motor that used in Prius has ball bearings and is completely sealed, I believe.
Dennis
TMV of Escape hybrid AWD, no options: $28,595
TMV of Escape XLS automatic AWD, no options: $19,270.
"Many people" may be paying over $28k for a Prius--but I wouldn't. "Overcharging" is not the best way to say it. There is a huge price premium for the Escape hybrid compared to the 4-cylinder hybrid. Much less so for the V6--which was my point of comparison, but apparently others compare to the 4-cylinder so there you have it.
Actually, the calculations that I used to estimate my $162 in the black after four years was based on a 12,000 per year chart at 48 mpg for the HCH versus 34 mpg for the EX. Go look at post # 461 on this board.
The more you drive, the faster you eat up the Hybrid premium...
Where do you get these ideas? Yes, Honda is getting batteries from Sanyo (for Accord), but does Prius use “Toyota batteries”? And just so that you know, Honda makes its own electric motors (and has been, since it got started on it in 1989). Heck, even with its fuel cell vehicle, Honda is using its own fuel cell stack, its home grown electric motor and its own ultra capacitor!
May be you know something I don’t. BTW, how much “premium” do you expect on RX400H when it comes around? $3K?
In case of Accord Hybrid, the difference is supposed to be greater, but there may be other reasons for it (including inclusion of VCM) but we will project it to be $3K.
Now when you say HSD premium is $3K like IMA’s, you must have a similar reasoning, correct? Is Matrix the best way to do it? We could have used Acura TL as a baseline since HAH and TL share platform, after all, and are similarly sized!