I missed the changing air pressure from elevation = source of energy but I did hear him (Paul Harvey) this AM say we are paying $ 50. for a $ 20. barrel of oil and I agree, don't know what the game plan is but it's not working too well.
"BTW, how much “premium” do you expect on RX400H when it comes around? $3K?"
I am guessing 4-5k premium. Survey shows that that's how much lexus customers are willing to pay. I understand that because 400H really take RX330 to the next level. In performance wise, it can probably match BMW V8 X5. Fuel economy, lower emission, silence stealth mode, and other HSD exclusive features are just icing on the cake.
If you are asking the premium cost of making 400h over RX330, I wouldn't know but I can tell you that Toyota is going to make money(profit) for sure.
The EX Civic does have alloys and they are 15-inchers. IMO a power moonroof is not a "minor difference" in features--manufacturers charge hundreds of dollars for that feature. I'm curious though as to what kind of "streamlining" the HCH's interior has compared to the EX and how much that feature is worth.
I have already stated my reasoning for saying the HSD premium is $3000. If you don't agree, fine. Maybe you could suggest an alternative. There are natural baselines for the HAH (hint: it's not the TL), HCH, and Escape, but it's trickier with hybrids like the Insight and Prius.
You're correct. Honda did make a move at offering alloy wheels on EX trim, I believe for 2004 model.
But speaking of costs, statements don't help, especially with the authority that you use. And I don't think TL would be any less of a natural baseline to HAH than Matrix could be to Prius! See, how easy it can be to argue on the grounds?
Well, we could use ES330 as a base. I prefer being consistent after all. But, would you be okay with it? You dubbed Camry Hybrid “a steal” at $23K. Of course, my assumption was based off the idea that 2.4/I-4 could form the basis. And if true, it appears, you will be surprised if Camry Hybrid could carry a price tag of “just 23K”.
If Honda were to unleash Accord Hybrid using Accord LX as base, I wouldn’t be surprised that it would cost only $23K. Would you? If the added premium of IMA and HSD is the same, as you put it, that shouldn’t come as a surprise, should it?
This is great. I don't have to think about my posts anymore because you will put the words on my screen for me. I will save much time this way.
It's too early to speculate what the future Camry hybrid will cost IMO because we don't know what ICE it will have, and what trim level it will be offered in. Honda went the luxo route with the HAH; who knows what Toyota will do with the Camry?
The difference would be 411 gallons of gas over 4 years. In your post, you based your costs on the assumptions that an HCH costs only $21 more per month than an EX (based on what downpayment, what interest rate, and what term I don't know). According to Edmunds TMV:
HCH: $20,700 EX: $17,700
The difference is $3000. No matter how you manipulate the downpayment and financing, the cost difference is $3000. So, to make up this difference in 4 years, gas would need to cost $7.30/gallon. Clearly it does not. Even if we're generous and say that the tax savings is $200/year for the HCH, gas would still need to cost $5.35/gallon to make it up in 4 years. Let's be even more generous and say that the HCH will hold it's value better (no evidence of this really happening, but), and we would lose $750 less on the HCH over 4 years in depreciation. Gas would have to cost $3.50/gallon.
I think I've proven my point here. A hybrid vehicle has many good qualities, but cost-effectiveness is not one of them.
quote-"I think I've proven my point here. A hybrid vehicle has many good qualities, but cost-effectiveness is not one of them."-wnd quote
As a General Rule, you are correct. But as in all rules, there are exceptions. It depends on the INDIVIDUAL TRANSACTION. Edmund's MSRP also shows a difference of only $1340 between the lowest priced HCH And the highest priced EX.
If someone "catches a good deal" or is a good negotiatior, they can get a cost effective HCH purchase. Do not try to say it is not possible, because it IS.
Read back to post #461 on this forum to see my individual case. I got my used HCH for $1524 more than a used EX on the lot with comparable equipment and miles.
So YES YOU ARE RIGHT (ego massage) but it CAN BE DONE in a cost-effective way IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.
If someone "catches a good deal" or is a good negotiatior, they can get a cost effective HCH purchase. Do not try to say it is not possible, because it IS
Someone can "catch a good deal" for an EX too, and maybe end up spending $4500 less for it than an HCH. That's not the point. The real-world price difference between the 2 models is $3000 whichever way you slice it.
If you used your excellent skills as a negotiator in buying your HCH for x dollars, you could have used the same skills to get the EX for x-3000 or thereabouts.
quote-"The real-world price difference between the 2 models is $3000 whichever way you slice it."-end quote
Not true....not true...not true.....Please quit ignoring my facts - that's no way to debate. I gave your $3000 number a great deal of respect in my last post, so please give me the same benefit.
"my" real-world price diff was $1524. Other people could get that deal also..I also shopped autotrader.com for ACTUAL CARS FOR SALE and found an EX and a Hybrid only $1340 apart - see my older posts.
The FACT REMAINS that although $3000 might be a good "general rule" it is NOT the "be all, end all" amount.
All I am saying is that YES, you may use the TMV as a "general guideline" but it is not a HARD SOLID SET FACT that EVERY Hybrid buyer in the USA "MUST" pay $3000 more to get the hybrid version of the same car - that is just ABSOLUTELY not true.....
How do you know that's your real-world difference. Did you buy both cars after the same amount/kind of negotiating? Terry from the RWTIV board can give you real-world prices on cars. So post the following info about both cars and I'll request Terry for a real-world evaluation.
Location: (city/state or nearest metropolitan area) Year: Make/Model: Mileage: Engine: Transmission - Auto/Manual Color - exterior/interior Major Options - alloys, sun roof, etc. Condition: Details of interior and exterior, including dings, scratches etc. Tires - new or % worn Brakes Maintenance Other: Indicate prior damage/insurance claims, repaints, etc.
quote-"How do you know that's your real-world difference. Did you buy both cars after the same amount/kind of negotiating?-end quote
Of course I did - why would I be declaring that as my real world difference if not? I had a four-square with both cars on there and we did the normal back and forth thing with the salesperson and his manager, haggling over payment terms and down payments and all that. I used each car against the other to try and get the price down. It was just a fairly normal negotiation. We finally boiled it down to bottom line numbers, and I chose the HCH - I've purchased a few cars in my day. I didn't have a contact in the dealership or anything special - I just went in on a Friday night and three hours later I had an HCH....nothing that anyone else could not do....
Maybe the dealer was high-balling the EX because he wanted to sell you the HCH. That's what I would do if a customer tried to pit 2 of my products against each other. Who knows. Anyway, you haven't answered my question about my request for details.
quote-"Anyway, you haven't answered my question about my request for details."-end quote.
None of that matters now, the deal is done and someone else bought the EX. I do not have any of that data - it was back on July 9th. All I know is that they were both Honda Certified used 2004 model cars with less than 5,000 miles on the odometer.
I had no idea at the time I would be trying to prove to people that you could get a Hybrid for so close to an EX.
What I do know for a fact is that anyone who says Hybrids are "minimum" $3000 more than non-Hybrids, at least in Phoenix AZ on July 9th, 2004, is just flat wrong, and is guilty of spreading generalities as disinformation.
In your case, with a $1500 difference in price, you could break even in 4 years with $150-200 in tax breaks each year.
If the tax breaks dry up, it would be 7-8 years.
But even assuming that they don't, I think your deal is not common, and that most people would be paying more than that. So I stand by 7 years just to break even.
I totally agree that my deal was uncommon. I just don't want (and no one should want this) possible Hybrid buyers to be scared away by the "you are making a cost-effective mistake" myth.
Just like people can get smokin deals in certain situations on "non-Hybrid" cars, so can people also get good deals on Hybrid cars - PLUS reap the benefits of lower emissions and lower fuel costs and the knowledge that they will stop wasting fuel when waiting at red lights..
Now, whether anybody can make up for the “premium” or not solely depends on what would make up for it. I doubt Civic EX will make up for its premium over Civic LX solely in terms of $$$, but sometimes returns can be in terms that is outside the realms of just monetary benefits.
There was a post aways back about Congress renewing the hybrid tax deduction, and actually sweetening it for 2004, putting it back to $2000 (it was going to be only $1500).
Like with California's HOV lanes, I'd rather see a deduction for a certain MPG and/or emissions rating, rather than a specific technology (like hybrids).
quote-"Maybe the dealer was high-balling the EX because he wanted to sell you the HCH. That's what I would do if a customer tried to pit 2 of my products against each other. Who knows."-end quote
....and who cares? All that matters is that people CAN get (regardless of the reasons for dealership tactics) comparable Hybrids for less than $3000 more than nons......
Until you post the requested info, I can protest just as loudly as you do that the cost difference is at least $3000, and not what you claim.
....and who cares? All that matters is that people CAN get (regardless of the reasons for dealership tactics) comparable Hybrids for less than $3000 more than
People CAN do a lot of things. We don't need to go into the stupid things people CAN and WILL do.
From a major Chicago area dealer Grand Honda. Their sales ad has a 2005 Civic EX Auto for $16792. The 2004 Civic Hybrid CVT is $19581. That difference is $2789 and that is an EX that is a model year newer. I think the $3000 price difference (same model year) is being pretty conservative.
my" real-world price diff was $1524. Other people could get that deal also..I also shopped autotrader.com for ACTUAL CARS FOR SALE and found an EX and a Hybrid only $1340 apart - see my older posts.
Your case proves a very good point. The hybrid does not hold it's resale as well as the non-hybrid. I think that is good to know for those that might consider buying a new hybrid vehicle.
quote-"Your case proves a very good point. The hybrid does not hold it's resale as well as the non-hybrid. I think that is good to know for those that might consider buying a new hybrid vehicle."-end quote
I think resale value of a 2004 HCH (since they are still being sold as new) would be as yet undetermined.....you cannot "generalize" the resale value of a whole line of cars based on comparing the resale price of two individual cars. (( You people.....:) ))
I do know that 2001 Priuses have held 76% of their MSRP as of about a month ago.....That's pretty substantial, comparable to the highest resale percentages of any 2001 model year car, hybrid and non-hybrid.
you cannot "generalize" the resale value of a whole line of cars based on comparing the resale price of two individual cars.
You have posted many times that the difference between a used HCH & EX is $1524. You also said anyone can get that deal. The TMV for those two is $3000 difference, so who is generalizing? You are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to justify your premise that a HCH is cost effective in comparison to a Civic EX. You are using used vehicles as your example (5000 miles is used). Your own case clearly shows that the hybrid lost $1500 more in that short period of use than the Civic EX.
I am closely watching the resale of Prius on eBay and they are not keeping that kind of resale.
IMO, people paying anything more than $22K for Prius are crazy. For a car like it, it makes sense to stay under the average price of a new car in America. But then, Toyota has managed to attract buyers willing to spend a major premium, we couldn’t blame the car for it!
Nope, you are drawing conclusions based in partial knowledge.....
We cannot know what the final sale price of the two cars in question was at their original purchase - therefore we cannot know that the HCH "lost" $1500 since purchased time.
And I have conceded that my deal was uncommon. I have always said that "other people can get good deals themselves."
And I have also conceded that $3000 is a good general number to go by.
But my staunch assertion, as yet not proven wrong, is that "EVERY PERSON WHO PURCHASES A HYBRID VERSION of a car that comes NON-HYBRID is *NOT* going to be forced to pay $3000 difference or more."
On the 2001 Prius issue: autotrader.com today in Phoenix AZ:
Prius * Vehicle includes: Power Steering, Power Brakes, Power Door Locks, Power Windows, AM/FM Stereo Radio, Cassette Player, Premium Sound System, more Price: $17995 Color: Silver Miles: 69025 Distance: 7 Miles VIN: JT2BK12U010019778
We don't know MSRP on this specific car, but even if MSRP was $23675, and back then the base was $19995, it has still held at least 76% of it's value to be reselling for $17995.
ONCE AGAIN ALLOW ME TO REITERATE: this is ONLY ONE CAR and cannot be used to generalize the resale value of a whole line of cars. But it does indicate that SOME CARS are holding their value.
On the 2001 Prius issue: autotrader.com today in Phoenix AZ: Prius * Vehicle includes: Power Steering, Power Brakes, Power Door Locks, Power Windows, AM/FM Stereo Radio, Cassette Player, Premium Sound System, more Price: $17995 Color: Silver Miles: 69025 Distance: 7 Miles VIN: JT2BK12U010019778
That dealer is looney toons. Here is an ended attempt to sell a 2002 Prius with 35k miles. It still has a 6year 100k mile warranty from Toyota. They could not get anyone to bid past $12,800. They would have sold it on a "Buy it Now price of $17,800. No takers. That is a very substantial loss on a two year old car. That AZ dealer will be lucky to get $9K for that Prius. They are an unknown at higher mileage.
Well, the Edmunds TMV comes out $15414 for that car in 85034 in "clean" condition. Even if MSRP was $22000 on that car new, that's still 70% of MSRP after 69K miles.....
On the 2001 Prius issue: autotrader.com today in Phoenix AZ: Prius * Vehicle includes: Power Steering, Power Brakes, Power Door Locks, Power Windows, AM/FM Stereo Radio, Cassette Player, Premium Sound System, more Price: $17995 Color: Silver Miles: 69025 Distance: 7 Miles VIN: JT2BK12U010019778
That dealer is looney toons. Here is an ended attempt to sell a 2002 Prius with 35k miles. It still has a 6year 100k mile warranty from Toyota. They could not get anyone to bid past $12,800. They would have sold it on a "Buy it Now price of $17,800. No takers. That is a very substantial loss on a two year old car. That AZ dealer will be lucky to get $9K for that Prius. They are an unknown at higher mileage.
Hey gagrice (and everyone) I'm looking for a used 04 Prius or Insight, would like a sweetheart of a deal but can't find it so keep those tips coming, I'm bound to get lucky.
"Surf on over to cars.com and search for Priuses, all miles from you.
It finds 383 cars. about 80 of them are 2001 models. There are only qty 12 of the 80 cars that are selling for less than $13,413.
That means about 68 of the 2001 model cars are selling for more than $13,413."
I think you mis typed something. Didn't you mean to say that cars.com is offering 68 cars for sale? Or are you saying they actually sold them at that price?
quote-"I think you mis typed something. Didn't you mean to say that cars.com is offering 68 cars for sale? Or are you saying they actually sold them at that price?"-end quote
Picky Picky.....even if they don't go ("sell") for the asking price, which MANY THOUSANDS OF CARS DO EVERYDAY, they will usually get with a grand of that price.
I could take the time to average the prices, but a good guess is around $15,000 for a 2001 Prius: 75% of base MSRP when the car was new. Edmunds TMV for a car with 69K miles retailing at $15,400 shows a good hold of value.
My point remains that 2001 Priuses are holding their resale value just fine.
Well, the Edmunds TMV comes out $15414 for that car in 85034 in "clean" condition. Even if MSRP was $22000 on that car new, that's still 70% of MSRP after 69K miles..
Again you make my point for me. Just because someone WANTS a big price for a car does not mean it will actually sell for that amount. You are a prime example. You beat the dealer down on your HCH to $19,324. In San Diego that HCH with CVT has a TMV of $20,698 New. However the dealer I talked to was selling the hybrids for $1000 over MSRP. It looks like you saved about $1374 by getting a used car. Not bad as most cars lose about $3k when they roll off the lot. The bottom line is what you have said all along. The price at the outset is not what the car ends up selling for. From what I am seeing on eBay the dealers are not selling the Prius by that mode. It may be that people will not buy sight unseen on a car. I would not. But I would never pay near MSRP for any car either. I reiterate the dealer in AZ is light in the loafers if he thinks he is going to get $17,995 for a 2001 Prius with 69k miles. If he does the person buying has spent too much time in the sun. Too bad we will never know.
PS There is a 2004 like new Civic HCH on eBay that is up to $8,800 with 5090 miles on it. Full warranty in excellent condition "no salvage". You may have jumped too soon.
quote-"PS There is a 2004 like new Civic HCH on eBay that is up to $8,800 with 5090 miles on it. Full warranty in excellent condition "no salvage". You may have jumped too soon."-end quote
Like I said earlier, E-Bay is just about the WORST way to buy a car. Why would ANYONE buy a car sight unseen? Something about "suckers born every minute" applies.
My point remains undisputed -
2001 Priuses are holding their value in the 70% of MSRP range after three years.
Folks, I shouldn't have to drop into these hybrid-related discussions every two days and delete posts and tell you to get back on topic and be civil to one another. This is about NEWS - we already have a resale value discussion. E-Bay ads don't count as news.
If you forget what the topic is, please read the discussion title before posting. We have a lot of hybrid discussions, and we'd like to keep the conversation organized so that other members can find info that interests them.
There's a debate on television tonight where professionals (?) will challenge each other's knowledge and credibility. If that's what you're after, please tune in, but this is not that venue. Please keep it civil, on-topic, and informative.
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We were debating the fact that Hybrids can be purchased for far less than the "common news article" quote of $3000 more than the non-Hybrid counterpart, and we *DID* surely get off into resale value...
Thank you for stepping in. I think this thread should be URL links to news topics only and maybe some minimum discussion around those specific links. It got way off track about one HCH purchase.
Now news link "Toyota eyes Hybrid Production In the US"
Here is a recent MSN article bashing Hybrid cost-effectiveness, but in the same breath comparing a Camry to a Prius and saying that if you bought a Prius over a Camry that "every nickel saved on gas is money in the bank." They also, in the second to last paragraph, mention the "over time" value of the Prius:
"The Prius, on the other hand, is riding a wave of consumer demand, with new models commanding thousands over sticker and used examples are maintaining their value well. Projected depreciation is less than that of the Camry, for example."
"Both the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Accord, the two most popular hybrid cars, have been named best buys by Consumer Reports the past two years, respectively, with the Prius receiving an "excellent" reliability rating for the most recent year. While hybrid cars can cost thousands more than conventional counterparts, hybridcars.com notes that their resale value have been holding up, though the numbers for comparison are relatively small. Fewer than 50,000 were sold in the United States last year out of total domestic sales of 16.7 million."
Both the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Accord, the two most popular hybrid cars, have been named best buys by Consumer Reports the past two years, respectively,...
CR will bristle over that article. They don't name any cars as "best buys", ever. Maybe the writer was confusing CR with a different magazine that does name cars as "best buys."
Comments
I am guessing 4-5k premium. Survey shows that that's how much lexus customers are willing to pay. I understand that because 400H really take RX330 to the next level. In performance wise, it can probably match BMW V8 X5. Fuel economy, lower emission, silence stealth mode, and other HSD exclusive features are just icing on the cake.
If you are asking the premium cost of making 400h over RX330, I wouldn't know but I can tell you that Toyota is going to make money(profit) for sure.
Dennis
I have already stated my reasoning for saying the HSD premium is $3000. If you don't agree, fine. Maybe you could suggest an alternative. There are natural baselines for the HAH (hint: it's not the TL), HCH, and Escape, but it's trickier with hybrids like the Insight and Prius.
But speaking of costs, statements don't help, especially with the authority that you use. And I don't think TL would be any less of a natural baseline to HAH than Matrix could be to Prius! See, how easy it can be to argue on the grounds?
So, is Camry Hybrid going to cost $23K?
"Statements don't help"... sorry, didn't know this was your forum and no one else need state their opinions here.
If Honda were to unleash Accord Hybrid using Accord LX as base, I wouldn’t be surprised that it would cost only $23K. Would you? If the added premium of IMA and HSD is the same, as you put it, that shouldn’t come as a surprise, should it?
It's too early to speculate what the future Camry hybrid will cost IMO because we don't know what ICE it will have, and what trim level it will be offered in. Honda went the luxo route with the HAH; who knows what Toyota will do with the Camry?
HCH: $20,700
EX: $17,700
The difference is $3000. No matter how you manipulate the downpayment and financing, the cost difference is $3000. So, to make up this difference in 4 years, gas would need to cost $7.30/gallon. Clearly it does not. Even if we're generous and say that the tax savings is $200/year for the HCH, gas would still need to cost $5.35/gallon to make it up in 4 years. Let's be even more generous and say that the HCH will hold it's value better (no evidence of this really happening, but), and we would lose $750 less on the HCH over 4 years in depreciation. Gas would have to cost $3.50/gallon.
I think I've proven my point here. A hybrid vehicle has many good qualities, but cost-effectiveness is not one of them.
As a General Rule, you are correct. But as in all rules, there are exceptions. It depends on the INDIVIDUAL TRANSACTION. Edmund's MSRP also shows a difference of only $1340 between the lowest priced HCH And the highest priced EX.
If someone "catches a good deal" or is a good negotiatior, they can get a cost effective HCH purchase. Do not try to say it is not possible, because it IS.
Read back to post #461 on this forum to see my individual case. I got my used HCH for $1524 more than a used EX on the lot with comparable equipment and miles.
So YES YOU ARE RIGHT (ego massage) but it CAN BE DONE in a cost-effective way IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES.
Someone can "catch a good deal" for an EX too, and maybe end up spending $4500 less for it than an HCH. That's not the point.
The real-world price difference between the 2 models is $3000 whichever way you slice it.
If you used your excellent skills as a negotiator in buying your HCH for x dollars, you could have used the same skills to get the EX for x-3000 or thereabouts.
Not true....not true...not true.....Please quit ignoring my facts - that's no way to debate. I gave your $3000 number a great deal of respect in my last post, so please give me the same benefit.
"my" real-world price diff was $1524. Other people could get that deal also..I also shopped autotrader.com for ACTUAL CARS FOR SALE and found an EX and a Hybrid only $1340 apart - see my older posts.
The FACT REMAINS that although $3000 might be a good "general rule" it is NOT the "be all, end all" amount.
All I am saying is that YES, you may use the TMV as a "general guideline" but it is not a HARD SOLID SET FACT that EVERY Hybrid buyer in the USA "MUST" pay $3000 more to get the hybrid version of the same car - that is just ABSOLUTELY not true.....
How do you know that's your real-world difference. Did you buy both cars after the same amount/kind of negotiating?
Terry from the RWTIV board can give you real-world prices on cars. So post the following info about both cars and I'll request Terry for a real-world evaluation.
Location: (city/state or nearest metropolitan area)
Year:
Make/Model:
Mileage:
Engine:
Transmission - Auto/Manual
Color - exterior/interior
Major Options - alloys, sun roof, etc.
Condition:
Details of interior and exterior, including dings, scratches etc.
Tires - new or % worn
Brakes
Maintenance
Other: Indicate prior damage/insurance claims, repaints, etc.
Of course I did - why would I be declaring that as my real world difference if not? I had a four-square with both cars on there and we did the normal back and forth thing with the salesperson and his manager, haggling over payment terms and down payments and all that. I used each car against the other to try and get the price down. It was just a fairly normal negotiation. We finally boiled it down to bottom line numbers, and I chose the HCH - I've purchased a few cars in my day.
I didn't have a contact in the dealership or anything special - I just went in on a Friday night and three hours later I had an HCH....nothing that anyone else could not do....
Anyway, you haven't answered my question about my request for details.
None of that matters now, the deal is done and someone else bought the EX. I do not have any of that data - it was back on July 9th. All I know is that they were both Honda Certified used 2004 model cars with less than 5,000 miles on the odometer.
I had no idea at the time I would be trying to prove to people that you could get a Hybrid for so close to an EX.
What I do know for a fact is that anyone who says Hybrids are "minimum" $3000 more than non-Hybrids, at least in Phoenix AZ on July 9th, 2004, is just flat wrong, and is guilty of spreading generalities as disinformation.
Post what details you remember about both the cars.
If the tax breaks dry up, it would be 7-8 years.
But even assuming that they don't, I think your deal is not common, and that most people would be paying more than that. So I stand by 7 years just to break even.
Just like people can get smokin deals in certain situations on "non-Hybrid" cars, so can people also get good deals on Hybrid cars - PLUS reap the benefits of lower emissions and lower fuel costs and the knowledge that they will stop wasting fuel when waiting at red lights..
Civic Hybrid: $19,800
The difference is $2,140
Now, whether anybody can make up for the “premium” or not solely depends on what would make up for it. I doubt Civic EX will make up for its premium over Civic LX solely in terms of $$$, but sometimes returns can be in terms that is outside the realms of just monetary benefits.
AND more Toyota news:
http://www.investors.com/breakingnews.asp?journalid=23296573&- brk=1
....and who cares? All that matters is that people CAN get (regardless of the reasons for dealership tactics) comparable Hybrids for less than $3000 more than nons......
....and who cares? All that matters is that people CAN get (regardless of the reasons for dealership tactics) comparable Hybrids for less than $3000 more than
People CAN do a lot of things. We don't need to go into the stupid things people CAN and WILL do.
Your case proves a very good point. The hybrid does not hold it's resale as well as the non-hybrid. I think that is good to know for those that might consider buying a new hybrid vehicle.
I think resale value of a 2004 HCH (since they are still being sold as new) would be as yet undetermined.....you cannot "generalize" the resale value of a whole line of cars based on comparing the resale price of two individual cars. (( You people.....:) ))
I do know that 2001 Priuses have held 76% of their MSRP as of about a month ago.....That's pretty substantial, comparable to the highest resale percentages of any 2001 model year car, hybrid and non-hybrid.
You have posted many times that the difference between a used HCH & EX is $1524. You also said anyone can get that deal. The TMV for those two is $3000 difference, so who is generalizing? You are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to justify your premise that a HCH is cost effective in comparison to a Civic EX. You are using used vehicles as your example (5000 miles is used). Your own case clearly shows that the hybrid lost $1500 more in that short period of use than the Civic EX.
I am closely watching the resale of Prius on eBay and they are not keeping that kind of resale.
We cannot know what the final sale price of the two cars in question was at their original purchase - therefore we cannot know that the HCH "lost" $1500 since purchased time.
And I have conceded that my deal was uncommon. I have always said that "other people can get good deals themselves."
And I have also conceded that $3000 is a good general number to go by.
But my staunch assertion, as yet not proven wrong, is that "EVERY PERSON WHO PURCHASES A HYBRID VERSION of a car that comes NON-HYBRID is *NOT* going to be forced to pay $3000 difference or more."
On the 2001 Prius issue: autotrader.com today in Phoenix AZ:
Prius * Vehicle includes: Power Steering, Power Brakes, Power Door Locks, Power Windows, AM/FM Stereo Radio, Cassette Player, Premium Sound System, more
Price: $17995
Color: Silver
Miles: 69025
Distance: 7 Miles
VIN: JT2BK12U010019778
We don't know MSRP on this specific car, but even if MSRP was $23675, and back then the base was $19995, it has still held at least 76% of it's value to be reselling for $17995.
ONCE AGAIN ALLOW ME TO REITERATE: this is ONLY ONE CAR and cannot be used to generalize the resale value of a whole line of cars. But it does indicate that SOME CARS are holding their value.
Prius * Vehicle includes: Power Steering, Power Brakes, Power Door Locks, Power Windows, AM/FM Stereo Radio, Cassette Player, Premium Sound System, more
Price: $17995
Color: Silver
Miles: 69025
Distance: 7 Miles
VIN: JT2BK12U010019778
That dealer is looney toons. Here is an ended attempt to sell a 2002 Prius with 35k miles. It still has a 6year 100k mile warranty from Toyota. They could not get anyone to bid past $12,800. They would have sold it on a "Buy it Now price of $17,800. No takers. That is a very substantial loss on a two year old car. That AZ dealer will be lucky to get $9K for that Prius. They are an unknown at higher mileage.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2488359139&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
Well, the Edmunds TMV comes out $15414 for that car in 85034 in "clean" condition. Even if MSRP was $22000 on that car new, that's still 70% of MSRP after 69K miles.....
Seems to be holding resale pretty good.....
It finds 383 cars. about 80 of them are 2001 models. There are only qty 12 of the 80 cars that are selling for less than $13,413.
That means about 68 of the 2001 model cars are selling for more than $13,413.
I guess it just all depends on where you shop when you are comparing cars.
Maybe E-Bay 2001 Priuses just don't sell well, UMM, MAYBE, because the buyers cannot SEE AND DRIVE THE CARS.......DUH !!!
Prius * Vehicle includes: Power Steering, Power Brakes, Power Door Locks, Power Windows, AM/FM Stereo Radio, Cassette Player, Premium Sound System, more
Price: $17995
Color: Silver
Miles: 69025
Distance: 7 Miles
VIN: JT2BK12U010019778
That dealer is looney toons. Here is an ended attempt to sell a 2002 Prius with 35k miles. It still has a 6year 100k mile warranty from Toyota. They could not get anyone to bid past $12,800. They would have sold it on a "Buy it Now price of $17,800. No takers. That is a very substantial loss on a two year old car. That AZ dealer will be lucky to get $9K for that Prius. They are an unknown at higher mileage.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2488359139&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
It finds 383 cars. about 80 of them are 2001 models. There are only qty 12 of the 80 cars that are selling for less than $13,413.
That means about 68 of the 2001 model cars are selling for more than $13,413."
I think you mis typed something. Didn't you mean to say that cars.com is offering 68 cars for sale? Or are you saying they actually sold them at that price?
Picky Picky.....even if they don't go ("sell") for the asking price, which MANY THOUSANDS OF CARS DO EVERYDAY, they will usually get with a grand of that price.
I could take the time to average the prices, but a good guess is around $15,000 for a 2001 Prius: 75% of base MSRP when the car was new. Edmunds TMV for a car with 69K miles retailing at $15,400 shows a good hold of value.
My point remains that 2001 Priuses are holding their resale value just fine.
Again you make my point for me. Just because someone WANTS a big price for a car does not mean it will actually sell for that amount. You are a prime example. You beat the dealer down on your HCH to $19,324. In San Diego that HCH with CVT has a TMV of $20,698 New. However the dealer I talked to was selling the hybrids for $1000 over MSRP. It looks like you saved about $1374 by getting a used car. Not bad as most cars lose about $3k when they roll off the lot. The bottom line is what you have said all along. The price at the outset is not what the car ends up selling for. From what I am seeing on eBay the dealers are not selling the Prius by that mode. It may be that people will not buy sight unseen on a car. I would not. But I would never pay near MSRP for any car either. I reiterate the dealer in AZ is light in the loafers if he thinks he is going to get $17,995 for a 2001 Prius with 69k miles. If he does the person buying has spent too much time in the sun. Too bad we will never know.
PS
There is a 2004 like new Civic HCH on eBay that is up to $8,800 with 5090 miles on it. Full warranty in excellent condition "no salvage". You may have jumped too soon.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&cate- gory=6256&item=2491795468&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
Like I said earlier, E-Bay is just about the WORST way to buy a car. Why would ANYONE buy a car sight unseen? Something about "suckers born every minute" applies.
My point remains undisputed -
2001 Priuses are holding their value in the 70% of MSRP range after three years.
I shouldn't have to drop into these hybrid-related discussions every two days and delete posts and tell you to get back on topic and be civil to one another. This is about NEWS - we already have a resale value discussion. E-Bay ads don't count as news.
If you forget what the topic is, please read the discussion title before posting. We have a lot of hybrid discussions, and we'd like to keep the conversation organized so that other members can find info that interests them.
There's a debate on television tonight where professionals (?) will challenge each other's knowledge and credibility. If that's what you're after, please tune in, but this is not that venue. Please keep it civil, on-topic, and informative.
kirstie_h
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But no one was being uncivil......
Now news link "Toyota eyes Hybrid Production In the US"
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?dist=rss¶m=arch- ive&siteid=mktw&guid=%7B944E93C0%2D3B14%2D4AAD%2DBD6E%2DD- 6A431FB49FC%7D
"The Prius, on the other hand, is riding a wave of consumer demand, with new models commanding thousands over sticker and used examples are maintaining their value well. Projected depreciation is less than that of the Camry, for example."
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Savinganddebt/Saveonacar/P372- - 72.asp
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04249/373285.stm
"Both the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Accord, the two most popular hybrid cars, have been named best buys by Consumer Reports the past two years, respectively, with the Prius receiving an "excellent" reliability rating for the most recent year. While hybrid cars can cost thousands more than conventional counterparts, hybridcars.com notes that their resale value have been holding up, though the numbers for comparison are relatively small. Fewer than 50,000 were sold in the United States last year out of total domestic sales of 16.7 million."
Dennis
http://www.berkshireeagle.com/Stories/0,1413,101~6
267~2435949,00.html
CR will bristle over that article. They don't name any cars as "best buys", ever. Maybe the writer was confusing CR with a different magazine that does name cars as "best buys."