The article says European car market, not necessarily European cars. At this time, as I understand, only Insight, Civic Hybrid and Prius are on sale in Europe.
GM now has a few hybrid buses in Kentucky, good ! - clip - LOUISVILLE, KY - Transit Authority of River City (TARC) set a great environmental example this week by adding five hybrid buses to its mass transit fleet. Louisville joins the growing ranks of communities investing in transit buses powered by General Motor's hybrid technology, which offers up to 60-percent-greater fuel economy and up to 90-percent-cleaner emissions. http://tinyurl.com/7xpqz
"The Prius and the Honda Insight and Civic hybrids qualify for the decals, but Ford has no vehicle that does. Its new Escape hybrid is expected to get only about 35 mpg."
Sen. Debra Bowen, D-Marina del Rey, who owns a hybrid, said the bill wouldn't "encourage a single person to buy a hybrid who wasn't going to buy one already. What it will do is clog carpool lanes, increase emissions from non-hybrid vehicles on the freeway and build resentment among real carpoolers."<\i>
At least the qualify hybrids can choose to drive in either lanes. Anyone knows when the bill will expire? I am sure they expect the bill to expire before too many hybrids clog up the <> lanes.
I know you are a big fan of Toyota's HSD. What do you think of the Accord hybrid? It looks nice but I am somewhat concerned about the cylinder deactivation system. I still remember Cadillac's disastrous experiment with this in the early 80's.
HAH is an Ultra Low Emission Vehicle just like EX-V6. HAH is the dirtiest hybrid available to date. Even Escape Hybrid SUV is cleaner than HAH. You can read my posts starting from here. usbseawolf2000 "Hybrid Honda Accord 2005" Sep 17, 2004 10:33pm
Dennis, You have made that statement before. I must reiterate. The HAH is still cleaner than any vehicle that Toyota sells in the USA, aside from the Prius. It is a high performance vehicle for those that want performance and decent mileage. You cannot say that about the Prius. There is no free lunch in the car business. Honda has two vehicles cleaner than the Prius if you were interested in the cleanest cars available. Furthermore the Civic CNG is the cleanest car the EPA has ever tested.
Let me add that HAH is also the most powerful hybrid or should I say mildbrid available now. After a few months, when Highlander Hybrid and RX400H SUVs come out, they will be the more powerful and cleaner(SULEV) than HAH. It will be a clear indication of IMA running out of steam.
After a few months, when Highlander Hybrid and RX400H SUVs come out, they will be the more powerful and cleaner(SULEV) than HAH.
___Actually, the AH is a ULEV-II in the green states. Most smog test stations cannot tell the difference between a ULEV-II and SULEV. As for RXh and HH performance vs. the AH, the AH will eat their breakfast, lunch, and dinner at least until proven other wise.
It will be a clear indication of IMA running out of steam.
___How is that? The latest IMA equipped Accord will walk all over the RXh, HH, Prius I and II on the skid pad, the track, as well as the fact that first generation IMA equipped automobiles hold more world records then any HSD equipped ones Oh, I forgot. The Prius I and II don’t hold any world records for mass produced or available automobiles. HSD equipped automobiles are not as efficient as you might think.
"After a few months, when Highlander Hybrid and RX400H SUVs come out, they will be the more powerful and cleaner(SULEV) than HAH."
If I am reading Honda's web site correctly, several of the Accords including the HAH will be PZEV in those states that adhere to CARB regulations. As far as any competition from the RX400h & Highlander hybrids I am assuming you were making a joke. They will not be in a performance league with the Accord. If they try to keep up they will roll over. For someone that is supposedly in favor of a cleaner environment, you have made a lot of negative statements about the Honda vehicles that are doing their part to clean up the air while providing a useable car. I would think it would be exciting for you to see some competition in the hybrid arena. Toyota does not hold all the aces. In fact they have only one, the Prius. Who knows it may turn out to be a Jack...
___The V6’s in the Accord LX/EX and Hybrid are either ULEV-II’s or LEV-II’s depending on fuel and configuration. If I remember what was published in the sales brochure at the Honda dealer the other night correctly. The Accord I4’s in the LX and EX trims can be purchased in a PZEV format in the states of California, New York, Vermont, Maine, or Massachusetts which is a bit cleaner then the RXh and HH.
"Actually, the AH is a ULEV-II in the green states. Most smog test stations cannot tell the difference between a ULEV-II and SULEV"
SULEV certified Highlander Hybrid and RX 400H stay considerably clean after 120,000 miles/11 years of use! I don't know about you but I see a big(NMOG 550%) difference.
LEV II - ULEV NMOG: 0.055 / CO: 2.1 / NOx: 0.07 / PM: 0.01 / HCHO: 0.011
LEV II - SULEV NMOG: 0.010 / CO: 1.0 / NOx: 0.02 / PM: 0.01 / HCHO: 0.004
How is Accord Hybrid going to look when those big SUVs are going to be cleaner and potentially faster in 30-50mph and 50-70mph? We'll see in about 6 months.
"several of the Accords including the HAH will be PZEV in those states that adhere to CARB regulations.".
Nope. None of the V6 Accord get lower than ULEV. Only I4 Accord is PZEV.
"As far as any competition from the RX400h & Highlander hybrids I am assuming you were making a joke."
Those full hybrid HSD SUVs are going to have 270 hp, therefore more powerful than HAH 255hp. Since SUVs are larger, they are also heavier. HAH might have an edge at 0-60mph but I estimate HSD SUVs will be faster for passing since this is where HSD shines the most.
"For someone that is supposedly in favor of a cleaner environment, you have made a lot of negative statements about the Honda vehicles "
I applause HAH for better fuel economy and 0.5 sec extra acceleration time which hybrid brings to the table. The fact that Honda engineers ignored the issue on emission and yet trying to market HAH in the green crowd, give a bad name to other green hybrids.
From technical point of view, IMA used in HAH is going the wrong direction. If you look at HAH, for every 15hp from the ICE, there is 1hp(yes,one) from the electric motor. For Prius, for every 1hp ICE, there is about 0.88hp from the primary electric motor.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2004-09-23-acc- ord-hybrid_x.htm The best you can say from all that is that the hybrid uses less fuel, but — typical of hybrids — not enough less to financially justify the purchase. In fact, it would take you more than a decade to save enough on fuel to repay that $3,400 price premium vs. a gas Accord, assuming today's gas prices, 12,000 miles a year and fuel economy as good as the ratings.
I don't consider USA Today a authority on automobile reporting but rather than pick out a paragraph that supports the anti hybrid point of view why not show the first paragraph that reads — Each new gas-electric hybrid model leapfrogs previous ones in refinement, power, familiarity. Predictably, then, Honda's 2005 Accord hybrid is the best so far, by far.
Better yet everyone should read the article themselves and draw their own conclusion.
Sounds to me like your are trying to redefine the word powerful . The HAH will be much faster 0-60 mph than the Highlander Hybrid and the RX400H. They may have more torque and more horsepower but they are SUVs, which by their nature are slow and heavy. However, it kind of fits in with Toyota's direction they set with the Prius, the slowest car in the Toyota line
Superman was "..more powerful than a locomotive. ... but the Highlander Hybrid and the Rx400H are no supermen of automotive vehicles.
I did not think the article was anti-hybrid. The author seemed to really like tha HAH. One of the things that impressed me was "you would not know you were in a hybrid except for the insignia"
He does point out the impracticality of purchaing a hybrid. That exists in most of the hybrids on the market or soon to come to market. You have to want to be the first on the block. You cannot justify the extra premium on gas savings alone.
"Sounds to me like your are trying to redefine the word powerful "
Nope. Powerful means in terms of horsepower; what is there to confuse about?
"The HAH will be much faster 0-60 mph than the Highlander Hybrid and the RX400H."
HAH does 0-60 in 7.5 sec. RX400H is expected to do it under 8 seconds. RX400H will eat HAH for breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper and midnight snack for passing power on highway. All this performance while achieving lower emission(SULEV) than HAH. Fuel economy might match or beat HAH.
I can't wait to see how Camry Hybrid and Altima Hybrid compare to HAH. It is already clear to me how much superior HSD full hybrids will have over IMA mildbrids. For those looking into buying HAH, I suggest you wait a little longer for TCH or NAH. At least wait for TCH or NAH performance, emission, and fuel economy estimates become available.
Addition comments from me about RX400H vs. HAH can look like trolling, so I'll be back when more info about HSD SUVs become available with(maybe) "I told you so". ;-D
HAH does 0-60 in 7.5 sec. RX400H is expected to do it under 8 seconds. RX400H will eat HAH for breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper and midnight snack for passing power on highway.
___Where did you get your car performance information, USA today?
___AH should run 0 to 60 in 6 - 6.5 seconds. So what about the TRXh or THH’s sub 8 second to 60 mph capability by comparison? Can you say, “oh so slow”?
___These type of performance numbers make the September 04 issue of C&D’s Prius II test run of 11.3 seconds to 60 quite laughable yet that was your favorite HSD equipped automobile, right? Maybe it isn’t anymore given the poor performance it has been saddled with over the last year or so. The AH will run 0 - 60 in ~ 1/2 the time as the Prius II yet doesn’t have that massive 295 Ft-Lb’s of torque available to it. Is the Prius II that incredibly slow or is its torque rating just exaggerated?
It is already clear to me how much superior HSD full hybrids will have over IMA mildbrids.
___Your view is actually quite clouded Name a Prius I or II that has higher fuel economy (either rated or especially real world) in comparison to an IMA equipped Honda Insight? Range on a tank of fuel? Performance wise, the AH vs. any recently announced HSD equipped hybrid. Sounds like the HSD equipped hybrids offer slower performance, lower fuel economy, and much higher prices overall unfortunately?
so I'll be back when more info about HSD SUVs become available
That was really great, thanks for a chuckle before I go to bed.
The only thing laughable about C/D's test of the Prius was that they could only manage 11.3 seconds 0-60, a full 1.5 seconds more than MT's best, and almost a second more than the washing-machine tester folks at CR.
What really tickled me was the comparison of the 3.0L V6-powered, 255-horsepower HAH to the 1.5L four-cylinder Prius and the revelation that the HAH is much quicker. But the comparison of the Prius to the Insight topped that. An 1881-pound two-seater has better highway fuel economy (but same in the city per EPA) than a 2890-pound five-seater--and that is remarkable? Let's see... the HAH weighs more than the Prius. Thus should we expect the HAH's fuel economy to be higher than that of the Prius--and the Insight too I guess? And since the Insight's engine is smaller than that of the Prius, we should expect the Insight to be faster than the Prius, right? Oh wait, the Insight is slower than the Prius. There goes that line of thought.
How is pointing out the cost difference anti-hybrid? A hybrid is like a fine wine, a fine wine costs more, however, it tastes better, and a hybrid costs more, however you recieve more advanced technology for your money. You don't buy a fine wine for it's alcohol content and you don't buy a hybrid purely for cost savings.
rfruth- you ignore my comment of "great car" regarding the Honda Accord Hybrid and focus on the cost to make anti-hybrid accusations. Reality is that hybrid technology has additional costs at this time. The article overall is very positive. Do you truly feel that James Healey is not qualified to review an automobile?
___USB said HSD is superior. If he was talking current sedans, possibly up until the release of the AH. He wasn’t so all IMA equipped Hybrid’s are fair game HSD is superior to what? It cannot travel as far on a tank of fuel as an IMA equipped AH or Insight. It doesn’t receive the fuel economy of an IMA equipped Insight. In terms of performance, care to check the track times of those Autocrossing Insight’s or even think an HSD equipped automobile can compete against an AH? Every HSD available is the slowest of all cars Toyota sells in the US. On the fuel economy front, the Insight has better fuel economy in both the highway and city My last jaunt an IMA equipped hybrid driving an all-city environment netted me 91 mpg. That was 25.2 miles of dead stop and go driving throughout much of the city of Joliet, IL in 1 hour and 35 minutes Do you think you can do better in an HSD equipped Prius II? Do you think anyone can do better in an HSD equipped Prius II?
___You want another laugher? MSN received 11.43 seconds in their run of the Prius II. Canadian Driver received > 11.0 seconds to 60 in their Prius II. I guess MT is the only car mag in the world that has ever tested a Prius II to 60 below 10 seconds. Care to find another for us? You can debate with C&D, Automobile Journalists Association of Canada, and MSN about why the Prius is slow.
___So an IMA equipped hybrid is less expensive (Insight/HCH), has higher performance (AH), and can achieve higher fuel economy (Insight). What is superior about HSD then?
When there is an 1881-pound HSD two-seater and a V6-powered HSD four-door sedan to compare against similar IMA offerings, I think that question can be answered. Until then, it's apples to oranges.
Renewal of the $2000 tax deduction is great news for hybrid buyers, even if it means only a few hundred dollars more in someone's pocket.
As for HSD being superior, since HSD is today offered only in one vehicle (for sale in the U.S. at least), and IMA in two, one of which is very low volume, IMO it's a little early to say whether HSD or IMA is "superior." I think a long-term perspective is needed to determine that, i.e. let's see where the technologies are in five years, once they have each been adopted to several mainstream applications.
If cost is the only criteria to buy a car (let us say a midsize car), Accord Hybrid, or even Accord LX/EX/EX-L/LXV6/EXV6 wouldn’t get the job done. People should the Accord DX instead.
The point of HAH isn’t about getting the best fuel economy, enough to justify the extra expense over Accord DX, or is it? With HAH, you get a car that is loaded with near luxury features, performance that will take most V6 sedans for a spin while delivering unmatched fuel economy and emissions from any of them.
It might help to appreciate things for what they are, instead of trying to argue against them for what they are not. It just makes sense, doesn’t it?
To establish superiority of IMA over HSD or vice versa, not whimsical ideas but an understanding of the differences and compromises towards implementation is needed. Neither is perfect, but the bottom line is… getting the job done without much fuss. If you want to get to the details, provide facts, not statements.
"Here is proof that the carmakers have been dragging their feet on alternative fuel vehicles at least 30 plus years"
Sorry, but I take issue with these kind of statements. It's easy to "Monday morning quarterback" and look back 30 years and pick out the "right" and "wrong" decisions.
Gee, DARPA was in the sixties, but the internet didn't take off until the late nineties. Guess the computer industry was dragging their feet for at least 30 plus years...
I don't do blanket statements, just like I don't do first-date sex.....:)
Actually, it's a well known and established fact that car companies have NOT genuinely attempted to replace the high-polluting ICE system because they are in business to make money, and putting that much R&D into new, untested technology that will price their cars so much higher at the outset has not been a financially sound decision for their shareholders....
Not to mention the power of the big oil companies....
Not to mention the lack of public demand for such systems.....
Not to mention the fact that technology has blossomed exponentially in the past 30 years....
So it is DEFINITELY NOT COMPLETELY THEIR FAULT, but kudos to Honda and Toyota and now Ford and Lexus for at least TRYING to help with their Hybrids....but anyone with a lick of common sense can see that car companies could have done something like this YEARS ago, had they been given government mandates or public social pressure to do so.....
(Don't spend too much time arguing with me on this - I am a sort of expert on this subject.)
___It wasn’t 3 weeks ago that Grand Honda in Elmhurst IL. was selling 04 Accord V6’s w/ Auto (4-door sedans) for $22,593 including destination or about $0.42/mile TCO. Is the EPA estimated increase of 9 mpg city/7 highway, ~ .5 seconds to 60, and no powered sunroof worth an estimated $7,500?
___Just 3 days ago I was offered an 04 - I4 EX-L w/ Auto and NAVI for $22,500 or about $0.41/mile TCO. I was also offered an 04 - I4 EX-L w/ Auto (no NAVI) for $20,799 or about $0.39/mile TCO. Is the EPA estimated increase of 6 mpg city/3 mpg highway, ~ 2.5 seconds to 60, and no sunroof worth an estimated $9,200 to $10,000 or maybe $0.47 - $0.55/mile TCO for the AH depending on if you want one w/ NAVI or not?
___The $7,500 for the Accord V6 to Accord V6 Hybrid comparison is real tough to swallow for that small an increase in fuel economy and performance given what you can pick up an 04 for. The 05’s will be maybe $1,500 more for another 2 or 3 months (loss of $1,000 manufacturer to dealer cash and small increase in MSRP) but the mid-size sedan market is going to heat up a small amount w/ the G6 and the 500 entering the fray. Accord sales year over year (03 vs. 04) were down so I don’t see Honda or their dealerships having that much more pricing power this coming year by comparison to the previous 2. The 05 Accord Hybrid on the other hand given its limited supply will be going for MSRP or MSRP + for the foreseeable future unfortunately. The comparisons above are not stripped DX and LX comparisons but I-4 and V6 EX-L’s w/ and w/out NAVI
MidCow said: "Sounds to me like your are trying to redefine the word powerful "
Usbseawolf2000 answered: Nope. Powerful means in terms of horsepower; what is there to confuse about?
I guess I never considered a Perterbuilt or a Kenworth with the 625 horsepower 2000 ft-lb engines as performance vehicles.
I had always looked at 0-60 times, quartermile times as performance metrics.
But I guess I was confused. I think Excel has already answered that the HAH will have a 0-60 time in the low 6 seconds range , not the 7.5 seconds you quoted.
In all aspects it will be faster than the RX400h, initial acceleration, passing, highway crusing, acceleration. The key reason has to do with Newton's second law, about mass "The second law states that the acceleration of an object is dependent upon two variables - the net force acting upon the object and the mass of the object." and the greater the mass,i.e. weight, the slower the accleration. A normal RX330 weighs 4,065 pounds and the Hybrid, because of the batteries, will probably be heavier.
Now compare that to a HAH at only 3501 pounds.
Okay the ratio of 4,065/3501 is 1.161 so to even be even tha Rx400h would have to have at least 296 horsepower.
The $7,500 for the Accord V6 to Accord V6 Hybrid comparison is real tough to swallow for that small an increase in fuel economy and performance given what you can pick up an 04 for.
In that sense, why stop at Accord V6? Accord DX is the best value around. I believe its MSRP is around $16K and should be possible to save $15K over HAH. Right?
And that was my point. Cars don’t yield proportional returns with cost. Accord DX will save you more money than any other Accord trim could, but then there is the endless desire for more (power and features) and that adds to the cost.
I don't do blanket statements, just like I don't do first-date sex.....:)
Actually, it's a well known and established fact that car companies have NOT genuinely attempted to replace the high-polluting ICE system because they are in business to make money, and putting that much R&D into new, untested technology that will price their cars so much higher at the outset has not been a financially sound decision for their shareholders....
Not to mention the power of the big oil companies....
Not to mention the lack of public demand for such systems.....
Not to mention the fact that technology has blossomed exponentially in the past 30 years....
So it is DEFINITELY NOT COMPLETELY THEIR FAULT, but kudos to Honda and Toyota and now Ford and Lexus for at least TRYING to help with their Hybrids....but anyone with a lick of common sense can see that car companies could have done something like this YEARS ago, had they been given government mandates or public social pressure to do so.....
(Don't spend too much time arguing with me on this - I am a sort of expert on this subject.)
As for HSD being superior, since HSD is today offered only in one vehicle (for sale in the U.S. at least), and IMA in two, one of which is very low volume, IMO it's a little early to say whether HSD or IMA is "superior."
___Why don’t you tell that to USB since he is the one saying this is fact.
___If I could design my own Hybrid, it would be an Acura TSX (Cd =.27) shaped body (just like the Euro Accord iCDTi uses today) w/ an undersized but Honda designed Euro Accord 1.5 L iCDTi running through Honda’s own Antonov patented auto using much larger capacity SuperCaps for electrical storage and use. It should only cost $2,500 - $3,500 more then the Accord EX V6 yet receive ~ 85 mpg highway, 60 in the city, and run 0 - 60 in < 7 seconds for a short burst. Maybe 10 years out or so
___Because the EX, EX-L, EX V6, and V6 AH are much better equipped and very comparable to one another in terms of std. equipment vs. an Accord DX. The $7,500 premium comes form the EX V6 vs. AH, not a whatever you can pick up an Accord DX for vs. the AH at maybe $16,000 - $18,500 difference.
Okay, so what about the whole electric car fiasco? The car companies spent billions trying to get this to work commercially, only to discover that the big battery break-through wasn't going to happen anytime soon and people didn't want a low-power, limited-distance auto. One bitten, twice shy. Back in the 70's, electric cars looked like the future. It's only now, 30 years later that we can say, no no, you should have done hydrogen.
My point is that, yeah, they've got to make money. It would be wonderful if they had trillions to research every technology, but it just ain't so. Do they sometimes drag their feet? Sure. But sometimes they come up with great tech.
You are correct in that is was a worthy attempt. Kudos for the attempt, BUT:
The electric car "fiasco" was not socially driven - the public was not clamoring for that sort of thing at the time. Although an electric with a 1000 range MIGHT have gone over well enough to have survived, it was not technologically feasible at the time...The whole thing was initiated by a government requirement to have "zero emission" vehicles by 2003.
The major reason it failed was the limited range of the vehicles and the recharge time - once again, technology was not advanced enough.
I think they were barking up the wrong tree - electricity was the most logical choice, but not the smartest choice, as it turned out....
Think where hybrids might be today if all that EV R&D had gone instead to perfecting Hybrid technology, or even Fuel-cell or Hydrogen...???
I think your are right, electric cars were a failure in the 70s. Two key issues were the (1) cost: something like $30,000 in 70s dollars and the (2)battery density.
But the real problem was that we let technology drive the Business rather than vice versa.
Business must be considered first in any case for a product to gain full overall acceptance. Right now the Hybrid is still in the early adopter stage (New techo,nutsm green weennies, milage video nuts, movies star fad, and psuedo economy (if it gets High milage who cares about the (ecomonics of the intial coast)
The truth is, the economics is not there yet. The human mind is complex, but even so it has trouble dealing with the cognitive dissonance of High milage savings against higher intial cost.
Then to confuse things more you start seeing luxury features in the Nuevo-econ-car such a Xexon lights, GPS, bluetooth and smartcards.
Hybrid is still in the "wet paint" stage. Someone sees a car that getshigh mileage and the latest techo gadgets, but you tell them it is not economical and will not payout for 8-10 years, so they just have to buy it anyway. Go figure!
Have you hear the latest from Paul Harvey, changing air pressure from elevation changes is the newest source of energy.
Hybrids are in part being driven by market demand right now - Prius waiting lists, Ford Escape = 3 year waiting list, Lexus 9000+ pre-orders for the RXH.
The market is ready for this type of thing - "getting more mileage per gallon" out of a car, without any compromises.
That's in part what is driving the consumer demand.
Electric cars demanded compromises that drivers were not willing to accept (plugging in the car at night, reduced driving range, only two-seaters sold) which in the end is what killed that whole thing.
Hybrids are on the right track because car makers have hit on something that is WANTED in the marketplace.
There is the problem. LX is $3K more due to added features over DX. EX is $3K more than LX for the same reasons as above. LXV6 is $3K more than LX for “added power/performance”. EXV6 is $3K more than LXV6 for added features.
Now comes Accord Hybrid with an MSRP that is $3K more than EXV6. It has same features as EXV6, but with greater performance while promising better fuel economy.
As you step thru each of these models, none of the trims will make up for “the premium” in monetary terms. HAH may come close to EXV6, however, if not beat it. If I get city rated mileage in EXV6 and HAH, then at 15K miles/year in city, I would save about 1700 gallons of fuel. That might just make up for the premium. But, could you boast the same going from LXV6 to EXV6? I somehow doubt it.
Now, don’t go on comparing market price of vehicle A to MSRP of another vehicle that is due to debut. That makes for an unfair argument. Automakers don’t announce MSRP based on market price.
quote"As you step thru each of these models, none of the trims will make up for “the premium” in monetary terms."-end quote
Well, that's only partially factually correct. The "premium" is made up in the buyer's view if the car the buyer is stepping up to "meets the needs" of that buyer better than the lower end model does.
If I am shopping for a vehicle that has all the creature comforts I want "PLUS" gets 15 more miles per gallon than a "comparable" vehicle, I'm willing to pay for all the added benefits.
It's the buyer's dime, and if they feel that the extra money is "worth it FOR THEM," then it is monetarily worth it "to THAT buyer."
Nope, not according to Hondanews.com(Official Honda site). The Accord Hybrid Sedan improves on the current Accord V-6's 0-60 mph time by half a second (7.5 sec. vs. 8.0 for an Accord EX V-6)"
"HSD is superior to what? It cannot travel as far on a tank of fuel as an IMA equipped AH or Insight."
AH can go 967 miles on one tank like Prius? Let's see some proof!
"It doesn’t receive the fuel economy of an IMA equipped Insight."
I know you like to ignore Daihatsu UFE-II which gets 170mpg. If Toyota sell it to the public, it would be an Insight killer. Too bad, Toyota doesn't sell concept cars.
"As for HSD being superior, since HSD is today offered only in one vehicle (for sale in the U.S. at least), and IMA in two, one of which is very low volume, IMO it's a little early to say whether HSD or IMA is "superior."
HSD is superior in term of simplicity, engineering, technologically, power and fuel efficiency. If you want to look at superiority in volume, Prius is outselling HCH 2-to-1. If you consider the long waiting list of Prius and some of the HCH owners that defect from that list, the ratio could be 4-to-1. Who knows?
Comments
buses to its mass transit fleet. Louisville joins the growing ranks of communities investing in transit buses powered by General Motor's hybrid technology, which offers up to 60-percent-greater fuel economy and up to 90-percent-cleaner emissions. http://tinyurl.com/7xpqz
http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200~24652~2422434,00.html
Dennis
I agree.
Dennis
HAH is an Ultra Low Emission Vehicle just like EX-V6. HAH is the dirtiest hybrid available to date. Even Escape Hybrid SUV is cleaner than HAH. You can read my posts starting from here.
usbseawolf2000 "Hybrid Honda Accord 2005" Sep 17, 2004 10:33pm
Dennis
Dennis,
You have made that statement before. I must reiterate. The HAH is still cleaner than any vehicle that Toyota sells in the USA, aside from the Prius. It is a high performance vehicle for those that want performance and decent mileage. You cannot say that about the Prius. There is no free lunch in the car business. Honda has two vehicles cleaner than the Prius if you were interested in the cleanest cars available. Furthermore the Civic CNG is the cleanest car the EPA has ever tested.
Dennis
After a few months, when Highlander Hybrid and RX400H SUVs come out, they will be the more powerful and cleaner(SULEV) than HAH.
___Actually, the AH is a ULEV-II in the green states. Most smog test stations cannot tell the difference between a ULEV-II and SULEV. As for RXh and HH performance vs. the AH, the AH will eat their breakfast, lunch, and dinner at least until proven other wise.
It will be a clear indication of IMA running out of steam.
___How is that? The latest IMA equipped Accord will walk all over the RXh, HH, Prius I and II on the skid pad, the track, as well as the fact that first generation IMA equipped automobiles hold more world records then any HSD equipped ones Oh, I forgot. The Prius I and II don’t hold any world records for mass produced or available automobiles. HSD equipped automobiles are not as efficient as you might think.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
If I am reading Honda's web site correctly, several of the Accords including the HAH will be PZEV in those states that adhere to CARB regulations. As far as any competition from the RX400h & Highlander hybrids I am assuming you were making a joke. They will not be in a performance league with the Accord. If they try to keep up they will roll over. For someone that is supposedly in favor of a cleaner environment, you have made a lot of negative statements about the Honda vehicles that are doing their part to clean up the air while providing a useable car. I would think it would be exciting for you to see some competition in the hybrid arena. Toyota does not hold all the aces. In fact they have only one, the Prius. Who knows it may turn out to be a Jack...
___The V6’s in the Accord LX/EX and Hybrid are either ULEV-II’s or LEV-II’s depending on fuel and configuration. If I remember what was published in the sales brochure at the Honda dealer the other night correctly. The Accord I4’s in the LX and EX trims can be purchased in a PZEV format in the states of California, New York, Vermont, Maine, or Massachusetts which is a bit cleaner then the RXh and HH.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
SULEV certified Highlander Hybrid and RX 400H stay considerably clean after 120,000 miles/11 years of use! I don't know about you but I see a big(NMOG 550%) difference.
LEV II - ULEV
NMOG: 0.055 / CO: 2.1 / NOx: 0.07 / PM: 0.01 / HCHO: 0.011
LEV II - SULEV
NMOG: 0.010 / CO: 1.0 / NOx: 0.02 / PM: 0.01 / HCHO: 0.004
How is Accord Hybrid going to look when those big SUVs are going to be cleaner and potentially faster in 30-50mph and 50-70mph? We'll see in about 6 months.
Dennis
Nope. None of the V6 Accord get lower than ULEV. Only I4 Accord is PZEV.
"As far as any competition from the RX400h & Highlander hybrids I am assuming you were making a joke."
Those full hybrid HSD SUVs are going to have 270 hp, therefore more powerful than HAH 255hp. Since SUVs are larger, they are also heavier. HAH might have an edge at 0-60mph but I estimate HSD SUVs will be faster for passing since this is where HSD shines the most.
"For someone that is supposedly in favor of a cleaner environment, you have made a lot of negative statements about the Honda vehicles "
I applause HAH for better fuel economy and 0.5 sec extra acceleration time which hybrid brings to the table. The fact that Honda engineers ignored the issue on emission and yet trying to market HAH in the green crowd, give a bad name to other green hybrids.
From technical point of view, IMA used in HAH is going the wrong direction. If you look at HAH, for every 15hp from the ICE, there is 1hp(yes,one) from the electric motor. For Prius, for every 1hp ICE, there is about 0.88hp from the primary electric motor.
Dennis
The best you can say from all that is that the hybrid uses less fuel, but — typical of hybrids — not enough less to financially justify the purchase. In fact, it would take you more than a decade to save enough on fuel to repay that $3,400 price premium vs. a gas Accord, assuming today's gas prices, 12,000 miles a year and fuel economy as good as the ratings.
Great car, high price.
Better yet everyone should read the article themselves and draw their own conclusion.
Superman was "..more powerful than a locomotive. ... but the Highlander Hybrid and the Rx400H are no supermen of automotive vehicles.
YMMV,
MidCow
He does point out the impracticality of purchaing a hybrid. That exists in most of the hybrids on the market or soon to come to market. You have to want to be the first on the block. You cannot justify the extra premium on gas savings alone.
Nope. Powerful means in terms of horsepower; what is there to confuse about?
"The HAH will be much faster 0-60 mph than the Highlander Hybrid and the RX400H."
HAH does 0-60 in 7.5 sec. RX400H is expected to do it under 8 seconds. RX400H will eat HAH for breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper and midnight snack for passing power on highway. All this performance while achieving lower emission(SULEV) than HAH. Fuel economy might match or beat HAH.
I can't wait to see how Camry Hybrid and Altima Hybrid compare to HAH. It is already clear to me how much superior HSD full hybrids will have over IMA mildbrids. For those looking into buying HAH, I suggest you wait a little longer for TCH or NAH. At least wait for TCH or NAH performance, emission, and fuel economy estimates become available.
Addition comments from me about RX400H vs. HAH can look like trolling, so I'll be back when more info about HSD SUVs become available with(maybe) "I told you so". ;-D
Dennis
HAH does 0-60 in 7.5 sec. RX400H is expected to do it under 8 seconds. RX400H will eat HAH for breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper and midnight snack for passing power on highway.
___Where did you get your car performance information, USA today?
MT February 04. 2004 Accord V6 w/ Auto: 0 – 60 = 6.50 seconds
R&T February 03. 2003 Accord V6 w/ Auto: 0 – 60 = 7.30 seconds
C&D October 02. 2003 Accord V6 w/ Auto: 0 – 60 = 7.00 seconds
Average = 6.933 seconds
___AH should run 0 to 60 in 6 - 6.5 seconds. So what about the TRXh or THH’s sub 8 second to 60 mph capability by comparison? Can you say, “oh so slow”?
___These type of performance numbers make the September 04 issue of C&D’s Prius II test run of 11.3 seconds to 60 quite laughable yet that was your favorite HSD equipped automobile, right? Maybe it isn’t anymore given the poor performance it has been saddled with over the last year or so. The AH will run 0 - 60 in ~ 1/2 the time as the Prius II yet doesn’t have that massive 295 Ft-Lb’s of torque available to it. Is the Prius II that incredibly slow or is its torque rating just exaggerated?
It is already clear to me how much superior HSD full hybrids will have over IMA mildbrids.
___Your view is actually quite clouded Name a Prius I or II that has higher fuel economy (either rated or especially real world) in comparison to an IMA equipped Honda Insight? Range on a tank of fuel? Performance wise, the AH vs. any recently announced HSD equipped hybrid. Sounds like the HSD equipped hybrids offer slower performance, lower fuel economy, and much higher prices overall unfortunately?
so I'll be back when more info about HSD SUVs become available
___Bye
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The only thing laughable about C/D's test of the Prius was that they could only manage 11.3 seconds 0-60, a full 1.5 seconds more than MT's best, and almost a second more than the washing-machine tester folks at CR.
What really tickled me was the comparison of the 3.0L V6-powered, 255-horsepower HAH to the 1.5L four-cylinder Prius and the revelation that the HAH is much quicker. But the comparison of the Prius to the Insight topped that. An 1881-pound two-seater has better highway fuel economy (but same in the city per EPA) than a 2890-pound five-seater--and that is remarkable? Let's see... the HAH weighs more than the Prius. Thus should we expect the HAH's fuel economy to be higher than that of the Prius--and the Insight too I guess? And since the Insight's engine is smaller than that of the Prius, we should expect the Insight to be faster than the Prius, right? Oh wait, the Insight is slower than the Prius. There goes that line of thought.
A hybrid is like a fine wine, a fine wine costs more, however, it tastes better, and a hybrid costs more, however you recieve more advanced technology for your money. You don't buy a fine wine for it's alcohol content and you don't buy a hybrid purely for cost savings.
rfruth- you ignore my comment of "great car" regarding the Honda Accord Hybrid and focus on the cost to make anti-hybrid accusations. Reality is that hybrid technology has additional costs at this time. The article overall is very positive. Do you truly feel that James Healey is not qualified to review an automobile?
___USB said HSD is superior. If he was talking current sedans, possibly up until the release of the AH. He wasn’t so all IMA equipped Hybrid’s are fair game HSD is superior to what? It cannot travel as far on a tank of fuel as an IMA equipped AH or Insight. It doesn’t receive the fuel economy of an IMA equipped Insight. In terms of performance, care to check the track times of those Autocrossing Insight’s or even think an HSD equipped automobile can compete against an AH? Every HSD available is the slowest of all cars Toyota sells in the US. On the fuel economy front, the Insight has better fuel economy in both the highway and city My last jaunt an IMA equipped hybrid driving an all-city environment netted me 91 mpg. That was 25.2 miles of dead stop and go driving throughout much of the city of Joliet, IL in 1 hour and 35 minutes Do you think you can do better in an HSD equipped Prius II? Do you think anyone can do better in an HSD equipped Prius II?
___You want another laugher? MSN received 11.43 seconds in their run of the Prius II. Canadian Driver received > 11.0 seconds to 60 in their Prius II. I guess MT is the only car mag in the world that has ever tested a Prius II to 60 below 10 seconds. Care to find another for us? You can debate with C&D, Automobile Journalists Association of Canada, and MSN about why the Prius is slow.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_- id=7701&page_number=4
http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/04prius.htm
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?modelid=11047&- amp;trimid=-1&src=VIP&tab=2&sub=0
___So an IMA equipped hybrid is less expensive (Insight/HCH), has higher performance (AH), and can achieve higher fuel economy (Insight). What is superior about HSD then?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
When there is an 1881-pound HSD two-seater and a V6-powered HSD four-door sedan to compare against similar IMA offerings, I think that question can be answered. Until then, it's apples to oranges.
http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,65080,00.html/wn_ascii
___So where does USB’s HSD being superior lead? HSD is only superior in a 4 cylinder, 2890 # automobile?
___Something else most might consider news worthy in regards to Hybrids
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=661- 2
___Wayne R. Gerdes
As for HSD being superior, since HSD is today offered only in one vehicle (for sale in the U.S. at least), and IMA in two, one of which is very low volume, IMO it's a little early to say whether HSD or IMA is "superior." I think a long-term perspective is needed to determine that, i.e. let's see where the technologies are in five years, once they have each been adopted to several mainstream applications.
The point of HAH isn’t about getting the best fuel economy, enough to justify the extra expense over Accord DX, or is it? With HAH, you get a car that is loaded with near luxury features, performance that will take most V6 sedans for a spin while delivering unmatched fuel economy and emissions from any of them.
It might help to appreciate things for what they are, instead of trying to argue against them for what they are not. It just makes sense, doesn’t it?
Sorry, but I take issue with these kind of statements. It's easy to "Monday morning quarterback" and look back 30 years and pick out the "right" and "wrong" decisions.
Gee, DARPA was in the sixties, but the internet didn't take off until the late nineties. Guess the computer industry was dragging their feet for at least 30 plus years...
Actually, it's a well known and established fact that car companies have NOT genuinely attempted to replace the high-polluting ICE system because they are in business to make money, and putting that much R&D into new, untested technology that will price their cars so much higher at the outset has not been a financially sound decision for their shareholders....
Not to mention the power of the big oil companies....
Not to mention the lack of public demand for such systems.....
Not to mention the fact that technology has blossomed exponentially in the past 30 years....
So it is DEFINITELY NOT COMPLETELY THEIR FAULT, but kudos to Honda and Toyota and now Ford and Lexus for at least TRYING to help with their Hybrids....but anyone with a lick of common sense can see that car companies could have done something like this YEARS ago, had they been given government mandates or public social pressure to do so.....
(Don't spend too much time arguing with me on this - I am a sort of expert on this subject.)
___It wasn’t 3 weeks ago that Grand Honda in Elmhurst IL. was selling 04 Accord V6’s w/ Auto (4-door sedans) for $22,593 including destination or about $0.42/mile TCO. Is the EPA estimated increase of 9 mpg city/7 highway, ~ .5 seconds to 60, and no powered sunroof worth an estimated $7,500?
___Just 3 days ago I was offered an 04 - I4 EX-L w/ Auto and NAVI for $22,500 or about $0.41/mile TCO. I was also offered an 04 - I4 EX-L w/ Auto (no NAVI) for $20,799 or about $0.39/mile TCO. Is the EPA estimated increase of 6 mpg city/3 mpg highway, ~ 2.5 seconds to 60, and no sunroof worth an estimated $9,200 to $10,000 or maybe $0.47 - $0.55/mile TCO for the AH depending on if you want one w/ NAVI or not?
___The $7,500 for the Accord V6 to Accord V6 Hybrid comparison is real tough to swallow for that small an increase in fuel economy and performance given what you can pick up an 04 for. The 05’s will be maybe $1,500 more for another 2 or 3 months (loss of $1,000 manufacturer to dealer cash and small increase in MSRP) but the mid-size sedan market is going to heat up a small amount w/ the G6 and the 500 entering the fray. Accord sales year over year (03 vs. 04) were down so I don’t see Honda or their dealerships having that much more pricing power this coming year by comparison to the previous 2. The 05 Accord Hybrid on the other hand given its limited supply will be going for MSRP or MSRP + for the foreseeable future unfortunately. The comparisons above are not stripped DX and LX comparisons but I-4 and V6 EX-L’s w/ and w/out NAVI
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Usbseawolf2000 answered: Nope. Powerful means in terms of horsepower; what is there to confuse about?
I guess I never considered a Perterbuilt or a Kenworth with the 625 horsepower 2000 ft-lb engines as performance vehicles.
I had always looked at 0-60 times, quartermile times as performance metrics.
But I guess I was confused. I think Excel has already answered that the HAH will have a 0-60 time in the low 6 seconds range , not the 7.5 seconds you quoted.
In all aspects it will be faster than the RX400h, initial acceleration, passing, highway crusing, acceleration. The key reason has to do with Newton's second law, about mass "The second law states that the acceleration of an object is dependent upon two variables - the net force acting upon the object and the mass of the object." and the greater the mass,i.e. weight, the slower the accleration. A normal RX330 weighs 4,065 pounds and the Hybrid, because of the batteries, will probably be heavier.
Now compare that to a HAH at only 3501 pounds.
Okay the ratio of 4,065/3501 is 1.161 so to even be even tha Rx400h would have to have at least 296 horsepower.
In that sense, why stop at Accord V6? Accord DX is the best value around. I believe its MSRP is around $16K and should be possible to save $15K over HAH. Right?
And that was my point. Cars don’t yield proportional returns with cost. Accord DX will save you more money than any other Accord trim could, but then there is the endless desire for more (power and features) and that adds to the cost.
Actually, it's a well known and established fact that car companies have NOT genuinely attempted to replace the high-polluting ICE system because they are in business to make money, and putting that much R&D into new, untested technology that will price their cars so much higher at the outset has not been a financially sound decision for their shareholders....
Not to mention the power of the big oil companies....
Not to mention the lack of public demand for such systems.....
Not to mention the fact that technology has blossomed exponentially in the past 30 years....
So it is DEFINITELY NOT COMPLETELY THEIR FAULT, but kudos to Honda and Toyota and now Ford and Lexus for at least TRYING to help with their Hybrids....but anyone with a lick of common sense can see that car companies could have done something like this YEARS ago, had they been given government mandates or public social pressure to do so.....
(Don't spend too much time arguing with me on this - I am a sort of expert on this subject.)
As for HSD being superior, since HSD is today offered only in one vehicle (for sale in the U.S. at least), and IMA in two, one of which is very low volume, IMO it's a little early to say whether HSD or IMA is "superior."
___Why don’t you tell that to USB since he is the one saying this is fact.
___If I could design my own Hybrid, it would be an Acura TSX (Cd =.27) shaped body (just like the Euro Accord iCDTi uses today) w/ an undersized but Honda designed Euro Accord 1.5 L iCDTi running through Honda’s own Antonov patented auto using much larger capacity SuperCaps for electrical storage and use. It should only cost $2,500 - $3,500 more then the Accord EX V6 yet receive ~ 85 mpg highway, 60 in the city, and run 0 - 60 in < 7 seconds for a short burst. Maybe 10 years out or so
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The TSX idea sounds like an interesting one--for the "Future Vehicles" discussion.
___Because the EX, EX-L, EX V6, and V6 AH are much better equipped and very comparable to one another in terms of std. equipment vs. an Accord DX. The $7,500 premium comes form the EX V6 vs. AH, not a whatever you can pick up an Accord DX for vs. the AH at maybe $16,000 - $18,500 difference.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Okay, so what about the whole electric car fiasco? The car companies spent billions trying to get this to work commercially, only to discover that the big battery break-through wasn't going to happen anytime soon and people didn't want a low-power, limited-distance auto. One bitten, twice shy. Back in the 70's, electric cars looked like the future. It's only now, 30 years later that we can say, no no, you should have done hydrogen.
My point is that, yeah, they've got to make money. It would be wonderful if they had trillions to research every technology, but it just ain't so. Do they sometimes drag their feet? Sure. But sometimes they come up with great tech.
The electric car "fiasco" was not socially driven - the public was not clamoring for that sort of thing at the time. Although an electric with a 1000 range MIGHT have gone over well enough to have survived, it was not technologically feasible at the time...The whole thing was initiated by a government requirement to have "zero emission" vehicles by 2003.
The major reason it failed was the limited range of the vehicles and the recharge time - once again, technology was not advanced enough.
I think they were barking up the wrong tree - electricity was the most logical choice, but not the smartest choice, as it turned out....
Think where hybrids might be today if all that EV R&D had gone instead to perfecting Hybrid technology, or even Fuel-cell or Hydrogen...???
I think your are right, electric cars were a failure in the 70s. Two key issues were the (1) cost: something like $30,000 in 70s dollars and the (2)battery density.
But the real problem was that we let technology drive the Business rather than vice versa.
Business must be considered first in any case for a product to gain full overall acceptance. Right now the Hybrid is still in the early adopter stage (New techo,nutsm green weennies, milage video nuts, movies star fad, and psuedo economy (if it gets High milage who cares about the (ecomonics of the intial coast)
The truth is, the economics is not there yet. The human mind is complex, but even so it has trouble dealing with the cognitive dissonance of High milage savings against higher intial cost.
Then to confuse things more you start seeing luxury features in the Nuevo-econ-car such a Xexon lights, GPS, bluetooth and smartcards.
Hybrid is still in the "wet paint" stage. Someone sees a car that getshigh mileage and the latest techo gadgets, but you tell them it is not economical and will not payout for 8-10 years, so they just have to buy it anyway. Go figure!
Have you hear the latest from Paul Harvey, changing air pressure from elevation changes is the newest source of energy.
YMMV,
MidCow
Hybrids are in part being driven by market demand right now - Prius waiting lists, Ford Escape = 3 year waiting list, Lexus 9000+ pre-orders for the RXH.
The market is ready for this type of thing - "getting more mileage per gallon" out of a car, without any compromises.
That's in part what is driving the consumer demand.
Electric cars demanded compromises that drivers were not willing to accept (plugging in the car at night, reduced driving range, only two-seaters sold) which in the end is what killed that whole thing.
Hybrids are on the right track because car makers have hit on something that is WANTED in the marketplace.
LX is $3K more due to added features over DX.
EX is $3K more than LX for the same reasons as above.
LXV6 is $3K more than LX for “added power/performance”.
EXV6 is $3K more than LXV6 for added features.
Now comes Accord Hybrid with an MSRP that is $3K more than EXV6. It has same features as EXV6, but with greater performance while promising better fuel economy.
As you step thru each of these models, none of the trims will make up for “the premium” in monetary terms. HAH may come close to EXV6, however, if not beat it. If I get city rated mileage in EXV6 and HAH, then at 15K miles/year in city, I would save about 1700 gallons of fuel. That might just make up for the premium. But, could you boast the same going from LXV6 to EXV6? I somehow doubt it.
Now, don’t go on comparing market price of vehicle A to MSRP of another vehicle that is due to debut. That makes for an unfair argument. Automakers don’t announce MSRP based on market price.
Well, that's only partially factually correct. The "premium" is made up in the buyer's view if the car the buyer is stepping up to "meets the needs" of that buyer better than the lower end model does.
If I am shopping for a vehicle that has all the creature comforts I want "PLUS" gets 15 more miles per gallon than a "comparable" vehicle, I'm willing to pay for all the added benefits.
It's the buyer's dime, and if they feel that the extra money is "worth it FOR THEM," then it is monetarily worth it "to THAT buyer."
Nope, not according to Hondanews.com(Official Honda site).
The Accord Hybrid Sedan improves on the current Accord V-6's 0-60 mph time by half a second (7.5 sec. vs. 8.0 for an Accord EX V-6)"
http://hondanews.com/CatID2131?mid=2004091746959&mime=asc
Dennis
P.S: I have to jump back in due to message traffics I generated.
AH can go 967 miles on one tank like Prius? Let's see some proof!
"It doesn’t receive the fuel economy of an IMA equipped Insight."
I know you like to ignore Daihatsu UFE-II which gets 170mpg. If Toyota sell it to the public, it would be an Insight killer. Too bad, Toyota doesn't sell concept cars.
http://www.daihatsu.com/motorshow/tokyo03/ufe2/
Dennis
HSD is superior in term of simplicity, engineering, technologically, power and fuel efficiency. If you want to look at superiority in volume, Prius is outselling HCH 2-to-1. If you consider the long waiting list of Prius and some of the HCH owners that defect from that list, the ratio could be 4-to-1. Who knows?
Dennis