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Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    it will still cost about $1,000 more than the gasoline engine.

    Funny I did not see anything in the EPA article that said the Diesel would cost $1000 more than the gas engine. As a matter of fact I'll bet that VW TDI costs less than the big V8 the Expedition has in it now. And do you think the EPA is going to forget the Environmental aspects of this vehicle? You have such a difficult time accepting change. Get used to it, the batteries in the hybrid electric, are it's Achilles heel. If you can find a way to store electricity in a device that is very small & light weight, you will have solved the problem with all electric based vehicles. Until then other innovation will take it's place as well as existing technology.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    And of course, noise could be a deterent. The hydraulics will add to the clatter of the diesel engine.

    When was the last time you heard a hydraulic device make noise? They are as quiet if not quieter than an electric motor.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > If you can find a way to store electricity in a device that is very small & light weight

    99 POUNDS is heavy!?!

    And the size is equal to 6 LOAVES OF BREAD.

    Since when isn't that small & light? Heck, a full-size 14" wheel is 32 pounds and about the same size. Taken into perspective, it is no big deal.

    And how in the heck are you suppose to power the steering & A/C without using electricity? Fire up the engine just for that? What a waste.

    Of course, once again you are totally dismissing the possibility of a diesel hybrid.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    Of course, once again you are totally dismissing the possibility of a diesel hybrid.

    That would be silly as there are buses all over the country that are diesel hybrid.

    A standard auto battery can handle the electrical needs of the car while the engine is not running same as the Prius.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    quote john-And how in the heck are you suppose to power the steering & A/C without using electricity? Fire up the engine just for that? What a waste.-end

    The energy stored in the accumulator powers A/C and steering and generates electricity.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    quote john- it will still cost about $1,000 more than the gasoline engine.-end

    Diesel option is a VW Passat is $200 more than gasoline engine. Production costs are nearly at parity for diesel engine compared to gasoline engine.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > A standard auto battery can handle the electrical needs of the car while the engine is not running same as the Prius.

    That is absolutely false.

    The entire auto industry is upgrading to bigger 42-volt batteries because the load cannot even be handled by the 12-volt while the engine is running.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > Diesel option is a VW Passat is $200 more than gasoline engine.

    Where's the data to support that claim?

    The reports I've read state an average difference of $1,200.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > That would be silly

    Yet, you did it anyway. Hmm?

    JOHN
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    Actually it's $1280 according to MSRPs on the '04 Passat GL and GLS sedans, comparing the 1.8T (lowest-cost gas engine on the Passat) to the TDI versions.

    Maybe the most cost-effective application of the hydraulic hybrid concept is on larger vehicles, where the small diesel engine would replace a much larger engine, and the hydraulic components would not need to be down-sized as much to fit a smaller platform. The article mentioned earlier stated that a car the size of a Taurus could handle the hydraulic hybrid concept. That's still a pretty big car (at least for someone like me who drives compacts). An electric hybrid powertrain can fit into a compact or even sub-compact sized car, offering more possible applications. I also am wondering how much maintenance would be required on a hydraulic system like that, and how much it would cost. For example, would the fluid need to be flushed at regular intervals? How long would the hydraulic components last before needing overhaul?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > The energy stored in the accumulator powers A/C and steering and generates electricity.

    Where does it say it will?

    Just because it can, doesn't mean that the automaker will actually offer the feature. Both Prius & Escape are full hybrids. One has electric A/C, the other doesn't.

    By the way, sometimes I do take what I read lightly. You just have to laugh it can be so absurd. Apparently, myself and all my Prius owning friends make over $100,000 per year. That's quite a raise for me since last week's paycheck!!!

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    I think the only thing that is keeping VW popular in the states is the TDI. The dealer I was talking to in Las Vegas sells at MSRP on the TDI and gives discounts on the gas version. My dealer in San Diego is like a morgue. They are not offering TDI. Of course I asked just to torment the salesman.

    On the hydraulic Expedition I have many questions as well. I just learned of this attempt at using hydraulics. Those of us that spend a lot of time around heavy equipment are not surprised they are going that route. We just wonder what took them so long. It has been sitting in front of us for years. As far as the maintenance of hydraulic systems, They flush them out when the fluid is dirty or burnt. Overload can cause the fluid to get hot and break down. It is a much older technology than HSD. It has not been adapted to small cars. I am anxious to see all new attempts at saving on fossil fuels. I don't have my mind made up as to which is best. Another couple years and we all will have a better idea.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    Apparently, myself and all my Prius owning friends make over $100,000 per year. That's quite a raise for me since last week's paycheck!!!

    congratulations on the raise. Now you can get a new Prius every two years and not take a chance on the old one dying before the 3 year warranty is up....
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    The entire auto industry is upgrading to bigger 42-volt batteries because the load cannot even be handled by the 12-volt while the engine is running.

    Many insiders would like us to go to the 42 volt system. I don't know of any that have at this time. Maybe the Hydraulic Expedition will lead the way. I think it is a good plan...
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    quote- By the way, sometimes I do take what I read lightly. You just have to laugh it can be so absurd. Apparently, myself and all my Prius owning friends make over $100,000 per year. That's quite a raise for me since last week's paycheck!!!
    JOHN-end

    You are at the wrong end of the bell curve on this statistic John;)
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > You are at the wrong end of the bell curve on this statistic

    SHOW ME THE DATA!

    We have found bogus statistics before. Where in the world did that reporter "get" his? My data proves he is wrong. And I bet my owner sampling is quite a bit larger than his.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    No matter, hydraulics are a dead-end technology anyway. What future improvement opportunities are there? With a full hybrid, the next step is simple. An advancement in battery-technology, which either reduces cost or increases energy-density, will immediately create a benefit. It has already been well proven that a bigger battery-pack in Prius will result in a higher MPG average. A lower price tag bares obvious appeal too. And what about fuel-cells? A full hybrid can easily utilize the electricity it creates. The same cannot be said for hydraulics.

    JOHN
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    quote John-No matter, hydraulics are a dead-end technology anyway.-end

    SHOW ME THE DATA!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    I already did.

    JOHN
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    quote- new report from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis confirms what many light rail skeptics have been saying for some time: It would be less costly to buy new cars for transit riders than build and subsidize new rail systems.

    The Fed report says it would be considerably cheaper to give a new Toyota Prius to each low-income rider of the St. Louis light rail line, and replace it with a new Prius every five years, than it is to operate that rail line.-end

    http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15340
  • john1701ajohn1701a Posts: 1,897
    > You have shown Nothing. You only Poo Poo

    You know quite well I have posted my data in great detail.

    As for the hydraulic details, it is only a prototype. So we can only discuss design aspects. And that is exactly what we were doing until you decided to make it personal and attack me!

    JOHN
  • Hydraulics has one question to me, what pressure will the system be working at, I believe that most hydraulic systems work at high pressures, which could require that the cylinders be ispected by the states and have safety relief valves that require inspection. This would have to be done every two to four years.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    Heres the data John (and backy too)
    2004 US Models
    Passat GL 1.8T MSRP $23,855
    Passat GL TDI MSRP $24,060
    Difference $205

    Passat GLS 1.8T $25,455
    Passat GLS TDI $25,660
    Difference $205

    Not $3000, not $2000, not $1200, only $205!

    Are you so lazy that you are unable to obtain the data from www.vw.com?

    What reports have you read that show $1200 difference? Or are you making you data up as you go along to attempt to mislead?
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 4,098
    "Are you so lazy that you are unable to obtain the data from www.vw.com?"

    While I sometimes have my differences with john1701a, I find the phraseology offensive. Just putting in my 2 cents for some basic courtesy... so we can all get along and express opinions freely.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    I don't think the "lazy" comment is warranted, nor is the "making up data as you go along to attempt to mislead." Let's keep the personal attacks out of this, OK? I got my data from Edmunds.com. I looked at the lowest MSRPs of the GL and GLS models for both 1.8T and TDI engines. What I didn't notice was that the 1.8T is available in a stick shift and the TDI is not. So the price difference between the lowest-priced 1.8T and TDI models is $1280, but the difference between automatic models is $205 as you pointed out.

    However, as gagrice found out, it appears TDI models are selling at MSRP while the gas models are selling with big discounts. So the real-world price difference, as in what people actually pay, may well be closer to the "$1200 average" that John mentioned. There is some evidence of this trend in the Edmunds.com TMV prices. For example, the GL 1.8T automatic TMV is $21,998 in my area, while the GL TDI's TMV is $23,044--over a $1000 difference.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,868
    http://www.popsci.com/popsci/auto/article/0,12543,690590,00.html

    To summarize-
    1. Pipe dream mpg.
    2. Long waits due to scarce supply.
    3. Fuel savings will not equal payback of initial high cost
    4. Poor resale.
    5. Cold weather problems.

    Hmmmm....
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,041
    Several posts are missing, since this discussion was taking on a negative, challenging tone. If you need more information, please don't hesitate to e-mail me. Let's keep disagreements civil and non-personal.

    kirstie_h
    Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

    MODERATOR

    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

    Share your vehicle reviews

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,041
    "The Fed report says it would be considerably cheaper to give a new Toyota Prius to each low-income rider of the St. Louis light rail line, and replace it with a new Prius every five years, than it is to operate that rail line.-end"

    This report is interesting to me, as I lived in St. Louis. Thankfully, I live outside of the areas of service of the light rail. It is a particularly notable example of poor planning, and poor management. Not only is bi-state development losing money by the bucketful, but the routes are cumbersome, cars unclean, and service areas dangerous.

    However, I don't think the solution is to give low-income people a Prius. I'm not suggesting that you endorsed that action, but who would pay for the maintenance? The insurance?

    Maybe using hybrid technology, a more cost-effective public transportation system could be designed. Anyone think there's a future for hybrids in mass transit?

    kirstie_h
    Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

    MODERATOR

    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

    Share your vehicle reviews

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    Toyota found that the Prius got 26 percent worse mileage at 20°F than it did at 75°F, because chemical reactions in the battery happen more slowly when the mercury dips.

    I believe I asked this question before. What happens when the car sits out at minus 20 F? Does it take off normally. Can you go start the heater before you get in to go? How bad does it affect the mileage. I realize this would only affect about half the US but it is a real problem.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    In San Diego the Trolley system is nice if you need it. The city subsidizes the system to the tune of 50-100 million dollars per year. It is electric and cuts down on pollution and traffic, I would say it is worth the price. I've used it on occaision to go to events that parking was a mess and it is clean and comfortable.
This discussion has been closed.