Educating people is fine and admirable, but modern, intelligent people need to take it upon themselves to understand technological advances which can benefit their own lives and the Earth.
Many well educated well read people have no idea that the hybrid vehicles even exist. My wife has many years more college than I. She reads continually about many things. Cars are not on her radar screen. We were at her broker's the other day and I pointed out a new Prius to her. The response I got was Oh it's ugly. My sister in law that designs clothes for many of the top TV shows is looking for a small economical car. I mentioned getting a hybrid and the answer was flat No. She wanted nothing to do with hybrids. Quite frankly the more I look into them the less likely I would be to buy any that are currently on the market or slated for the next couple years.
The Union of Concerned Scientists' David Friedman scolds Honda for making a hybrid out of its V-6 Accord, rather than its more popular 4-cylinder model. The result is a hybrid Accord that is only about 5mpg more fuel efficient than its 4-cylinder sibling. "If everyone ends up driving around in souped-up family cars and SUVs," he says, "then hybrids have made a wrong turn."
"But let's state the facts: If you even have a smidge of techno curiosity, or if you watch the news or read a paper, you MUST have seen some recent info on Hybrids. They are indeed all over the news these days."
Hmmm, sometimes it is difficult for Prius enthusiasts to realize three facts:
1. Many people don't care about cars, or hybrids. 2. Many people don't particularly care about the environment. 3. Many people (like my wife) think the Prius is "really ugly"
"If everyone ends up driving around in souped-up family cars and SUVs," he says, "then hybrids have made a wrong turn."
Look around, Mr. Friedman--everyone is driving around in souped-up family cars and SUVs! How much horsepower does the typical "family car" have these days? Well over 200 is typical for a V6 family car, minivan, and SUV. The hottest family car is the Chrysler 300 (MT's 2005 COTY) and Dodge Magnum wagon, each with big V6 or V8 (Hemi) engines. Recent reviews of the Ford Freestyle generally praise it but lament its weak engine--it "only" has 203 hp and can "only" manage 0-60 in 8.2 seconds.
Talking about facts, the fact is people are going to buy powerful mid-sized cars. Honda offering a 4-cylinder HAH won't change that. I'd rather have them driving a car that gets better fuel economy than most 4-cylinder compacts than a gas guzzler that struggles to get 20 mpg.
The Union of Concerned Scientists' David Friedman scolds Honda for making a hybrid out of its V-6 Accord, rather than its more popular 4-cylinder model. The result is a hybrid Accord that is only about 5mpg more fuel efficient than its 4-cylinder sibling.
So be it. I wonder if he wants the world to revolve around his ideas. What is wrong with a (way) more powerful sedan getting “only 5 mpg” better? Hybrids don’t have to get you 60 mpg vehicles all the time. Automakers have got to market their product that makes sense to them, and to buyer. That said, I’m not sure if HAH with I-4 would do much better than it does with V6. Cheaper, sure it will be, but mileage gains may not be more than 2-3 mpg (no VCM to start with). If 5 mpg is miniscule, I wonder what he thinks about 2-3 mpg.
I agree with above posters who think the criticism is misplaced.
The new Accord Hybrid is the first production hybrid with "no performance compromises."
There may well be a market for that, and for every Hybrid Accord that is sold in place of an Accord V6 that is non-Hybrid, then you have saved 7-8 MPG for EVERY MILE DRIVEN in that car.
Hybrids are not only for the 50+ MPG crew - in Honda's techmology model, they can apply IMA systems to ANY of their cars. Very smart. And Green.
Look around, Mr. Friedman--everyone is driving around in souped-up family cars and SUVs!
Looks like Mr Friedman hit a big NERVE! I think what he is saying is valid. The reason behind the whole hybrid push is saving the planet and what oil is left in it. The HAH does not send out that message. It sends out the message, you can have your fast car and look like you are saving the planet. When in reality you are doing less than the guy with an Accord 4 cylinder driving reasonably, getting good mileage with low emissions.
There may well be a market for that, and for every Hybrid Accord that is sold in place of an Accord V6 that is non-Hybrid, then you have saved 7-8 MPG for EVERY MILE DRIVEN in that car.
There is a market for the HAH. There is a market for the Hummer2 also. That does not make either one a green choice or a gas guzzler. As far as the better mileage, we shall see. That is all speculation. Has the EPA tested the HAH yet? I guess it makes no difference as gas should drop below 2 bucks by Christmas.
The reason behind the whole hybrid push is saving the planet and what oil is left in it. The HAH does not send out that message. It sends out the message, you can have your fast car and look like you are saving the planet.
You got that wrong. The idea is to have a fast car and still save oil, for the planet and for the buyer. A car that can get you 30 mpg isn’t burning more oil than a car that can get you 24 mpg. Or is it?
When in reality you are doing less than the guy with an Accord 4 cylinder driving reasonably, getting good mileage with low emissions.
Now you want to compare a lead footed HAH driver with a guy carrying an egg under the gas pedal of his four cylinder Accord. How about they exchange cars?
Repeating for the umpteenth time, comparisons make sense only if they have a common ground (AKA, baseline).
Repeating for the umpteenth time, comparisons make sense only if they have a common ground (AKA, baseline).
___How many umpteenth times need to be stated? The Accord EX-L w/ NAVI and the AH are the same car minus 2.3 seconds to 60 and TCS while losing some truck space, spare tire, sunroof, fold down rear seats, and $8 - $10 Grand out of your wallet.
To you they may be. To me, they are not. Accord EX-L doesn't compare to HAH, as is. You get some more for more. And for the umpteenth time, is $$$ is all about it, get Accord DX. You only lose a few conveniences and may actually do better in performance and mileage owing to lower curb weight. That, besides putting $8K in your pocket.
HAH is certainly not a car for you. Actually, it isn't a car for me either! I would prefer TSX Hybrid. BUT, I do understand the point of HAH.
___If the AH and Accord are not comparable cars then no car can be compared to AH according to you? As for the DX saving $8K, no, that would be ~ $18,000.00. Maybe you forgot to carry the 1 ;-)
___The TSX won’t be hybridized so you can either live with its Accord I4 ICE on premium fuel or skip it?
Sure I can live with Accord I4. As a matter of fact, I can live with anything that can carry me around. But that is not the only point of my car purchase.
As for comparables, you got that right. Simply put, there are differences (and similarities) between Hybrid and EXV6 and EX. And there are differences (and similarities) between EX and DX.
BTW, Accord DX is listed at $16,200 and Accord EX at $23,700. Thats a $7500 worth of premium for a car that will perform worse. ;-)
As for comparables, you got that right. Simply put, there are differences (and similarities) between Hybrid and EXV6 and EX. And there are differences (and similarities) between EX and DX.
___You do know there are maybe 32 differences between the DX and EX-L w/ NAVI whereas there are only 4 differences besides the ICE and Hybridization between the AH w/ NAVI and an EX-L w/ NAVI and not all of them are a positive. You can count the dots on the 05 Accord/Accord Hybrid Brochure available at your nearest Honda Dealership.
BTW, Accord DX is listed at $16,200 and Accord EX at $23,700. Thats a $7500 worth of premium for a car that will perform worse. ;-)
$30,500 - $13,508 = $16,992. If this were an Auto price, the stick would give just about $18,000 vs. your Hmmm $8,000 figure? Where do you shop for your Honda’s?
"The reason behind the whole hybrid push is saving the planet and what oil is left in it. The HAH does not send out that message. It sends out the message, you can have your fast car and look like you are saving the planet."
Hmm, and I thought the point of a hybrid was to save gas for the driver...turns out it is only for political statements. Who knew? BTW, I'm assuming fast is a relative term for the Prius. Anyone want to drag race the Prius with a HAH?
Toyota would have had much more of an impact on the environment if they had made the Camry a hybrid.
Toyota would have had much more of an impact on the environment if they had made the Camry a hybrid.
I doubt that. As you can see from the Prius sales which are good it is making some impact. It is only slightly smaller than the Camry and is much more easily noticed. Many people that buy the Prius are looking for the attention it brings. It says more than the Civic Hybrid I am saving your air and fuel. I think the Accord Hybrid will meet with the same lukewarm reception of the other honda hybrids. If I was buying a hybrid myself for commuting which is a logical reason to purchase one. I would go for the Insight. It makes more sense to me. Only a very few really gungho technocrats will jump on the HAH. It is not a good example of a fossil fuel saving car. It is a golden opportunity to waste about $8000 on an automobile purchase. If the driver drives it like he has a 4 cylinder and is trying to save fuel, it will only take about 12 years to make up the difference in cost over the 4 cylinder Accord. If he drives it to show off the stellar performance of the wasted 255 HP stuffed into a miniature car he will be lucky to get much better mileage than my Suburban.
___I believe you might be the only one to ever compare the DX to the EX-L w/ NAVI or AH? I don’t know why and I am sure others here have to ask the same question given the DX’s $18,000 or the EX-L w/ NAVI’s $8,000 - $10,000 spread against the AH?
___That kind of premium to gain 2.3 seconds to 60 while losing the basic lux amenities included w/ the EX-L looks pretty sad from my viewpoint?
FORTY-FOURTH LEGISLATIVE MEETING DC City Council Tuesday, December 7, 2004
(Excerpts)
Department of Motor Vehicles Reform Amendment Act of 2004, Committee on Public Works and the Environment (passed unanimously)
Requires that vehicles weighing 5,000 pounds or greater to pay on a graduated scale by weight an 8% registration fee.
Exempts from the certificate of title excise tax clean-fuel and electric vehicles.
Creates two new weight classes and registration fees, one for heavy vehicles increasingly used on District roadways and one for certain clean fuel and electric vehicles.
I may be the only one comparing DX to EX, and thats okay! Because, I'm using a logic that is derived from yours. The only difference is: - You disregard performance/mileage improvement and compare based on equipment. - I turned your argument the other way around.
I stand by my statement. If Toyota really wanted to create an impact on the environment, they would have offered the Camry with the HSD. It is a very popular car, would have instantly sold in large numbers, and the production line is already ramped up. That is, assuming that Toyota had committed itself and pre-ordered sufficient battery packs...
Unless, of course, the Camry couldn't produce the MPG required to (at least partially) justify the expense of the Hybrid. In which case Hybrids are doomed to the small car market.
It is a case of wanting to help the environment vs. wanting to make a political statement. I'll opt for the environment. The Prius style has attracted some consumers, but I believe the unusual styling has turned many more away. This is the second time in the past 10 years that Toyota has created the insides of the automobile and then created an exterior. The first car was the Echo, the second is the Prius. Both vehicles were very good ergonomically, and had lots of interior space for the outside size. Both had exterior styling that sent people to other car models.
The Prius style has attracted some consumers, but I believe the unusual styling has turned many more away.
Since Toyota is selling all the Priuses it can make, it's kind of a moot point that the unique styling has turned some people away, isn't it? Unique styling will do that--some will like it, some will hate it. Obviously enough people like it, in the case of the Prius. As for the ECHO... that's another discussion.
According to this webpage, 1100 Civic Hybrids are selling in Britain. So how many Civic hybrids has Honda sold worldwide since its inception. Any idea.
Toyota would have had much more of an impact on the environment if they had made the Camry a hybrid
Toyota will release the hybrid Camry in Fall of 2005 as an 06 MY. It will pair the 3.3L V6 with the Hybrid synergy Drive. Looks like Toyota is following Honda's footstep.
___Why do you insist on paying MSRP for whatever you purchase when no one in the entire Chicagoland area is paying anywhere near MSRP for an Accord EX w/ Auto? At least that is this week’s ad anyway:
You disregard performance/mileage improvement and compare based on equipment.
___When you receive 44.3 mpg in a 28 mile city/hwy mixed test drive in a brand new AH, I will disregard the mileage of the std. Accord I4 w/ Auto ;-)
___As far as equipment is concerned, it is already a known fact the AH loses the powered sunroof, fold down rear seats, spare tire, and has lesser trunk space. It does go from 0 - 60 2.3 seconds faster and for at least $8,600 more $’s then an 05 EX-L 8-)
I compared apples to apples. MSRP of DX to MSRP of EX. Thats how cars are priced. Negotiations go from there and vary. Negotiated price to negotiated price makes for oranges to potato comparison.
Negotiated price to negotiated price makes for oranges to potato comparison.
Advertised prices are not negotiated prices. Advertised prices are used to entice you into the showroom. At which point you try to negotiate a lower price. Except some people just don't like to do that so they pay the advertised price.
One thing I found interesting in all this Accord EX debate was the difference in price between the 4 cylinder and the V6. Honda gets about $2000 more for those two extra cylinders. That does not seem to bother some of you. Yet you make a big deal over a difference between a gas engine and the superior more efficient diesel engine.
I meant Toyota is also putting power and performance over fuel efficiency. I think they want to have the bragging rights over the Accord Hybrid. Camry Hybrids will have the same powertrain as the upcoming Lexus R400H and Highlander hybrid.
Could you tell what the advertised price in Dallas Morning News for Accord EXV6 is, today? And how does it compare to the advertised price of Accord Hybrid in my area? I think you can, just curious.
One thing I found interesting in all this Accord EX debate was the difference in price between the 4 cylinder and the V6. Honda gets about $2000 more for those two extra cylinders. That does not seem to bother some of you. Yet you make a big deal over a difference between a gas engine and the superior more efficient diesel engine.
Wasn’t this an argument from me a few weeks ago? I asked you the very same question (including the issue of things like navigation system that can add $2K to the price tag). It is not me who is making a big deal out of premium of IMA. Not all options do the same job! Navigation system isn’t improving your fuel economy or performance, and IMA isn’t getting you directions. Put things in perspective, and appreciate for what they are meant to do.
I asked you the very same question (including the issue of things like navigation system that can add $2K to the price tag).
You make some valid points. I think the reason for the debate over hybrid is the fact that it came about to save fuel and the environment. It seems to have drifted over to more HP for the same or a little less gas.
I think the reason for the debate over hybrid is the fact that it came about to save fuel and the environment.
Let's try to separate fact from opinion. The above is opinion, and I respect it. But high-power hybrids have been shown around as prototypes for years. Just because the first three commerically-available hybrid cars focused on fuel economy doesn't mean that's the only benefit that hybrids offer. Let's not forget though that even the HAH offers significant fuel economy improvements over its ICE counterpart--at least in the EPA figures. Soon we'll know how that translates to the real world.
I think the reason for the debate over hybrid is the fact that it came about to save fuel and the environment. It seems to have drifted over to more HP for the same or a little less gas.
And hybrid technology is still doing it. Accord Hybrid is expected to return the best mileage of any other trim around. I’ve a 3 mile commute that involves three or four stops on the way, one of them lasts about 1 minute. Assuming my driving style does not change, do you really believe I will get same or poorer mileage in Accord Hybrid compared to Accord V6 (or, throw in Accord I-4 if you wish)?
More HP has become a part and parcel of marketing. Imagine Accord Hybrid rated at 225 HP and managing to deliver another mpg or two. I firmly believe that it will trigger another opportunity for a naysayer. Sad, IMO.
That being said, it would help to get out of preconceived notions about things, and look at them from different angles. More performance without the usual downsides isn’t a bad thing. I hope this translates to I-4 Accord someday as much as it does to V6 version. It is quite possible that Honda considered I-4 Accord Hybrid, but the premium to performance equation may not have balanced out, in addition to try and change the ongoing perception of hybrids that they have to be slow performers.
I'm hoping that next Civic Hybrid builds on the same ground as Accord Hybrid. Perhaps, that would be the car for people who wish Accord had I-4 to go with IMA.
"2005 as an 06 MY. It will pair the 3.3L V6 with the Hybrid synergy Drive."
Where did you find out the Toyota Camry details above? This would be a disaster, IMO. I was looking forward to a gas efficient 4 cyl. Toyota Camry.
If there are no 4 cyl. Camrys or Accords in the upcoming years ,I think I will wait for the future Passat TDI wagon. Heard it will be more fuel efficient than the current model.
Where did you find out the Toyota Camry details above? This would be a disaster, IMO. I was looking forward to a gas efficient 4 cyl. Toyota Camry.
I totally agree. The automakers are headed in the wrong direction for the US market. We need economy more than we need high performance. There are too many people driving beyond their skill level as it is. Why add more mayhem to the highways. You notice these high powered hybrids have not improved their braking only their acceleration. I'm with you the Passat TDI wagon is on my short list. The new DSG transmission is supposed to be the next best thing to a manual.
Interesting! Detroit is only a four hour drive for me. I am tempted to go, but I have to watch out for snowstorms(one of the disbenefits of driving a RWD vehicle)
The info on the hybrid Camry was from "Toyota's future vehicle lineup" news. I should have copied and posted that link. It said that the hybrid powertrain will be mated to the V6 engine.
Thanks for the response. This news certainly cools down my anticipation for the new hybrid Camry. Hopefully if there is a hybrid Acura RDX, it will have a 4 cyl. engine.
totally agree. The automakers are headed in the wrong direction for the US market. We need economy more than we need high performance.
Toyota already has the 4-cyl midsize fuel-mizer market covered with the Prius. A 4-cyl Camry won't help the market as much as more Prius production, which would deliver even better fuel mileage than a 4-cyl hybrid Cambry anyway. 6-cyl hybrids will bring the lead-footed into the fold of hybrids, resulting in even higher saved gallon per vehicle-mile. IMHO, it's a great strategy to enlarge Prius output and introduce 6-cyl hybrid Camry at the same time, instead of messing with a 4-cyl hybrid Camry that leaves performance market out in the cold and cannibalizes Prius sales and complicating the distribution channel in the extreme fuel economy end of the market. Don't forget when cruising on the highway, the 6-cyl HAH runs as a 3-cylinder! 6-cyl hybrid Camry might do the same.
IMHO, it's a great strategy to enlarge Prius output and introduce 6-cyl hybrid Camry at the same time, instead of messing with a 4-cyl hybrid Camry that leaves performance market out in the cold and cannibalizes Prius sales
You are probably correct on the Toyota front. I still think that Honda got it backwards. Get the fuel efficient car on the market then offer a hotrod version. I think doing it the way Honda is going gives the impression the hybrid technology is for performance more than economy and emission ratings. In fact the HAH will not get as good of an emissions rating as the SULEV II four cylinder Accord.
I can't help but wonder if the interest will subside as current fuel prices drop (locally $1.65 a gal as of late). That being said, I can't help but feel that there will be a leveling off or even a noticable decline in sales of hybrids depending on the cost of fuel.
I had a not so kind bumper sticker on my 04 PRIUS toward O.P.E.C when I should have directed my disgust toward local oil companies since they raised prices during Thanksgiving holidays 20 cents a gal. all the while OPEC was drastically dropping the barrel price on the world market. I must admit that I didn't care much but it still showed that somebody can manipulate prices simply to pad their own greedy pockets. By the way, shortly after the holidays gas dropped to the level I indicated earlier ($1.65)
Comments
Many well educated well read people have no idea that the hybrid vehicles even exist. My wife has many years more college than I. She reads continually about many things. Cars are not on her radar screen. We were at her broker's the other day and I pointed out a new Prius to her. The response I got was Oh it's ugly. My sister in law that designs clothes for many of the top TV shows is looking for a small economical car. I mentioned getting a hybrid and the answer was flat No. She wanted nothing to do with hybrids. Quite frankly the more I look into them the less likely I would be to buy any that are currently on the market or slated for the next couple years.
The Union of Concerned Scientists' David Friedman scolds Honda for making a hybrid out of its V-6 Accord, rather than its more popular 4-cylinder model. The result is a hybrid Accord that is only about 5mpg more fuel efficient than its 4-cylinder sibling. "If everyone ends up driving around in souped-up family cars and SUVs," he says, "then hybrids have made a wrong
turn."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6480057/site/newsweek/
Hmmm, sometimes it is difficult for Prius enthusiasts to realize three facts:
1. Many people don't care about cars, or hybrids.
2. Many people don't particularly care about the environment.
3. Many people (like my wife) think the Prius is "really ugly"
These are the "facts" to state.
Look around, Mr. Friedman--everyone is driving around in souped-up family cars and SUVs! How much horsepower does the typical "family car" have these days? Well over 200 is typical for a V6 family car, minivan, and SUV. The hottest family car is the Chrysler 300 (MT's 2005 COTY) and Dodge Magnum wagon, each with big V6 or V8 (Hemi) engines. Recent reviews of the Ford Freestyle generally praise it but lament its weak engine--it "only" has 203 hp and can "only" manage 0-60 in 8.2 seconds.
Talking about facts, the fact is people are going to buy powerful mid-sized cars. Honda offering a 4-cylinder HAH won't change that. I'd rather have them driving a car that gets better fuel economy than most 4-cylinder compacts than a gas guzzler that struggles to get 20 mpg.
So be it. I wonder if he wants the world to revolve around his ideas. What is wrong with a (way) more powerful sedan getting “only 5 mpg” better? Hybrids don’t have to get you 60 mpg vehicles all the time. Automakers have got to market their product that makes sense to them, and to buyer. That said, I’m not sure if HAH with I-4 would do much better than it does with V6. Cheaper, sure it will be, but mileage gains may not be more than 2-3 mpg (no VCM to start with). If 5 mpg is miniscule, I wonder what he thinks about 2-3 mpg.
The new Accord Hybrid is the first production hybrid with "no performance compromises."
There may well be a market for that, and for every Hybrid Accord that is sold in place of an Accord V6 that is non-Hybrid, then you have saved 7-8 MPG for EVERY MILE DRIVEN in that car.
Hybrids are not only for the 50+ MPG crew - in Honda's techmology model, they can apply IMA systems to ANY of their cars. Very smart. And Green.
Looks like Mr Friedman hit a big NERVE! I think what he is saying is valid. The reason behind the whole hybrid push is saving the planet and what oil is left in it. The HAH does not send out that message. It sends out the message, you can have your fast car and look like you are saving the planet. When in reality you are doing less than the guy with an Accord 4 cylinder driving reasonably, getting good mileage with low emissions.
We are not an "econobox" society. If so, the Geo Metro would have ruled to roost a long time ago.
Cars that are "more efficicient" than competing cars in it's own class are nothing if not a good, green idea.
There is a market for the HAH. There is a market for the Hummer2 also. That does not make either one a green choice or a gas guzzler. As far as the better mileage, we shall see. That is all speculation. Has the EPA tested the HAH yet?
I guess it makes no difference as gas should drop below 2 bucks by Christmas.
Yes, the market will be "I want an Accord V6 but also I want the added Hybrid benefit and gas savings it will provide"
You got that wrong. The idea is to have a fast car and still save oil, for the planet and for the buyer. A car that can get you 30 mpg isn’t burning more oil than a car that can get you 24 mpg. Or is it?
When in reality you are doing less than the guy with an Accord 4 cylinder driving reasonably, getting good mileage with low emissions.
Now you want to compare a lead footed HAH driver with a guy carrying an egg under the gas pedal of his four cylinder Accord. How about they exchange cars?
Repeating for the umpteenth time, comparisons make sense only if they have a common ground (AKA, baseline).
Repeating for the umpteenth time, comparisons make sense only if they have a common ground (AKA, baseline).
___How many umpteenth times need to be stated? The Accord EX-L w/ NAVI and the AH are the same car minus 2.3 seconds to 60 and TCS while losing some truck space, spare tire, sunroof, fold down rear seats, and $8 - $10 Grand out of your wallet.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
HAH is certainly not a car for you. Actually, it isn't a car for me either! I would prefer TSX Hybrid. BUT, I do understand the point of HAH.
___If the AH and Accord are not comparable cars then no car can be compared to AH according to you? As for the DX saving $8K, no, that would be ~ $18,000.00. Maybe you forgot to carry the 1 ;-)
___The TSX won’t be hybridized so you can either live with its Accord I4 ICE on premium fuel or skip it?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
As for comparables, you got that right. Simply put, there are differences (and similarities) between Hybrid and EXV6 and EX. And there are differences (and similarities) between EX and DX.
BTW, Accord DX is listed at $16,200 and Accord EX at $23,700. Thats a $7500 worth of premium for a car that will perform worse. ;-)
As for comparables, you got that right. Simply put, there are differences (and similarities) between Hybrid and EXV6 and EX. And there are differences (and similarities) between EX and DX.
___You do know there are maybe 32 differences between the DX and EX-L w/ NAVI whereas there are only 4 differences besides the ICE and Hybridization between the AH w/ NAVI and an EX-L w/ NAVI and not all of them are a positive. You can count the dots on the 05 Accord/Accord Hybrid Brochure available at your nearest Honda Dealership.
BTW, Accord DX is listed at $16,200 and Accord EX at $23,700. Thats a $7500 worth of premium for a car that will perform worse. ;-)
Accord Hybrid: $30,539
Honda Accord - Prices Paid:
pbchoclovr "Honda Accord: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" Dec 6, 2004 6:20pm
Accord DX: $13,508
$30,500 - $13,508 = $16,992. If this were an Auto price, the stick would give just about $18,000 vs. your Hmmm $8,000 figure? Where do you shop for your Honda’s?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Hmm, and I thought the point of a hybrid was to save gas for the driver...turns out it is only for political statements. Who knew? BTW, I'm assuming fast is a relative term for the Prius. Anyone want to drag race the Prius with a HAH?
Toyota would have had much more of an impact on the environment if they had made the Camry a hybrid.
I doubt that. As you can see from the Prius sales which are good it is making some impact. It is only slightly smaller than the Camry and is much more easily noticed. Many people that buy the Prius are looking for the attention it brings. It says more than the Civic Hybrid I am saving your air and fuel. I think the Accord Hybrid will meet with the same lukewarm reception of the other honda hybrids. If I was buying a hybrid myself for commuting which is a logical reason to purchase one. I would go for the Insight. It makes more sense to me. Only a very few really gungho technocrats will jump on the HAH. It is not a good example of a fossil fuel saving car. It is a golden opportunity to waste about $8000 on an automobile purchase. If the driver drives it like he has a 4 cylinder and is trying to save fuel, it will only take about 12 years to make up the difference in cost over the 4 cylinder Accord. If he drives it to show off the stellar performance of the wasted 255 HP stuffed into a miniature car he will be lucky to get much better mileage than my Suburban.
I assume DX to EX-L comparison didn't bode well with you, did it?
___When did I opt to skip an EX-L w/ NAVI?
___I believe you might be the only one to ever compare the DX to the EX-L w/ NAVI or AH? I don’t know why and I am sure others here have to ask the same question given the DX’s $18,000 or the EX-L w/ NAVI’s $8,000 - $10,000 spread against the AH?
___That kind of premium to gain 2.3 seconds to 60 while losing the basic lux amenities included w/ the EX-L looks pretty sad from my viewpoint?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Tuesday, December 7, 2004
(Excerpts)
Department of Motor Vehicles Reform Amendment Act of 2004, Committee on Public Works and the Environment (passed unanimously)
Requires that vehicles weighing 5,000 pounds or greater to pay on a graduated scale by weight an 8% registration fee.
Exempts from the certificate of title excise tax clean-fuel and electric vehicles.
Creates two new weight classes and registration fees, one for heavy vehicles increasingly used on District roadways and one for certain clean fuel and electric vehicles.
Accord EX, MSRP: $25,015 (incl destination)
I may be the only one comparing DX to EX, and thats okay! Because, I'm using a logic that is derived from yours. The only difference is:
- You disregard performance/mileage improvement and compare based on equipment.
- I turned your argument the other way around.
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101374
And fuel prices modifying buying habits:
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101373
Unless, of course, the Camry couldn't produce the MPG required to (at least partially) justify the expense of the Hybrid. In which case Hybrids are doomed to the small car market.
It is a case of wanting to help the environment vs. wanting to make a political statement. I'll opt for the environment. The Prius style has attracted some consumers, but I believe the unusual styling has turned many more away. This is the second time in the past 10 years that Toyota has created the insides of the automobile and then created an exterior. The first car was the Echo, the second is the Prius. Both vehicles were very good ergonomically, and had lots of interior space for the outside size. Both had exterior styling that sent people to other car models.
Since Toyota is selling all the Priuses it can make, it's kind of a moot point that the unique styling has turned some people away, isn't it? Unique styling will do that--some will like it, some will hate it. Obviously enough people like it, in the case of the Prius. As for the ECHO... that's another discussion.
FYI, the Camry hybrid is coming.
Rank Model Year 2003
1. Honda
2. Nissan
3. Toyota
4. Ford
5. DaimlerChrysler
6. General Motors
http://www.investors.com/breakingnews.asp?journalid=24305046&- brk=1
Cool, I hadn't heard. When is the introduction date?
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world_business/view/75- 071/1/.html
According to this webpage, 1100 Civic Hybrids are selling in Britain.
So how many Civic hybrids has Honda sold worldwide since its inception. Any idea.
Toyota will release the hybrid Camry in Fall of 2005 as an 06 MY. It will pair the 3.3L V6 with the Hybrid synergy Drive. Looks like Toyota is following Honda's footstep.
Accord EX, MSRP: $25,015 (incl destination)
___Why do you insist on paying MSRP for whatever you purchase when no one in the entire Chicagoland area is paying anywhere near MSRP for an Accord EX w/ Auto? At least that is this week’s ad anyway:
http://grandhonda.com/images/weekly_specials.jpg
Accord EX, $21,888 (incl destination)
I may be the only one comparing DX to EX
___That just about says it all.
You disregard performance/mileage improvement and compare based on equipment.
___When you receive 44.3 mpg in a 28 mile city/hwy mixed test drive in a brand new AH, I will disregard the mileage of the std. Accord I4 w/ Auto ;-)
___As far as equipment is concerned, it is already a known fact the AH loses the powered sunroof, fold down rear seats, spare tire, and has lesser trunk space. It does go from 0 - 60 2.3 seconds faster and for at least $8,600 more $’s then an 05 EX-L 8-)
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Advertised prices are not negotiated prices. Advertised prices are used to entice you into the showroom. At which point you try to negotiate a lower price. Except some people just don't like to do that so they pay the advertised price.
One thing I found interesting in all this Accord EX debate was the difference in price between the 4 cylinder and the V6. Honda gets about $2000 more for those two extra cylinders. That does not seem to bother some of you. Yet you make a big deal over a difference between a gas engine and the superior more efficient diesel engine.
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1653.html
One thing I found interesting in all this Accord EX debate was the difference in price between the 4 cylinder and the V6. Honda gets about $2000 more for those two extra cylinders. That does not seem to bother some of you. Yet you make a big deal over a difference between a gas engine and the superior more efficient diesel engine.
Wasn’t this an argument from me a few weeks ago? I asked you the very same question (including the issue of things like navigation system that can add $2K to the price tag). It is not me who is making a big deal out of premium of IMA. Not all options do the same job! Navigation system isn’t improving your fuel economy or performance, and IMA isn’t getting you directions. Put things in perspective, and appreciate for what they are meant to do.
You make some valid points. I think the reason for the debate over hybrid is the fact that it came about to save fuel and the environment. It seems to have drifted over to more HP for the same or a little less gas.
Let's try to separate fact from opinion. The above is opinion, and I respect it. But high-power hybrids have been shown around as prototypes for years. Just because the first three commerically-available hybrid cars focused on fuel economy doesn't mean that's the only benefit that hybrids offer. Let's not forget though that even the HAH offers significant fuel economy improvements over its ICE counterpart--at least in the EPA figures. Soon we'll know how that translates to the real world.
And hybrid technology is still doing it. Accord Hybrid is expected to return the best mileage of any other trim around. I’ve a 3 mile commute that involves three or four stops on the way, one of them lasts about 1 minute. Assuming my driving style does not change, do you really believe I will get same or poorer mileage in Accord Hybrid compared to Accord V6 (or, throw in Accord I-4 if you wish)?
More HP has become a part and parcel of marketing. Imagine Accord Hybrid rated at 225 HP and managing to deliver another mpg or two. I firmly believe that it will trigger another opportunity for a naysayer. Sad, IMO.
That being said, it would help to get out of preconceived notions about things, and look at them from different angles. More performance without the usual downsides isn’t a bad thing. I hope this translates to I-4 Accord someday as much as it does to V6 version. It is quite possible that Honda considered I-4 Accord Hybrid, but the premium to performance equation may not have balanced out, in addition to try and change the ongoing perception of hybrids that they have to be slow performers.
I'm hoping that next Civic Hybrid builds on the same ground as Accord Hybrid. Perhaps, that would be the car for people who wish Accord had I-4 to go with IMA.
Where did you find out the Toyota Camry details above? This would be a disaster, IMO. I was looking forward to a gas efficient 4 cyl. Toyota Camry.
If there are no 4 cyl. Camrys or Accords in the upcoming years ,I think I will wait for the future Passat TDI wagon. Heard it will be more fuel efficient than the current model.
I totally agree. The automakers are headed in the wrong direction for the US market. We need economy more than we need high performance. There are too many people driving beyond their skill level as it is. Why add more mayhem to the highways. You notice these high powered hybrids have not improved their braking only their acceleration. I'm with you the Passat TDI wagon is on my short list. The new DSG transmission is supposed to be the next best thing to a manual.
Could Acura RDX be the hybrid SUV? Or is Honda going to reveal a hybrid version of one of its existing SUVs?
Yes I look forward to test driving the new Passat TDI wagon, although I will stick with manual.
Interesting! Detroit is only a four hour drive for me. I am tempted to go, but I have to watch out for snowstorms(one of the disbenefits of driving a RWD vehicle)
Toyota already has the 4-cyl midsize fuel-mizer market covered with the Prius. A 4-cyl Camry won't help the market as much as more Prius production, which would deliver even better fuel mileage than a 4-cyl hybrid Cambry anyway. 6-cyl hybrids will bring the lead-footed into the fold of hybrids, resulting in even higher saved gallon per vehicle-mile. IMHO, it's a great strategy to enlarge Prius output and introduce 6-cyl hybrid Camry at the same time, instead of messing with a 4-cyl hybrid Camry that leaves performance market out in the cold and cannibalizes Prius sales and complicating the distribution channel in the extreme fuel economy end of the market. Don't forget when cruising on the highway, the 6-cyl HAH runs as a 3-cylinder! 6-cyl hybrid Camry might do the same.
You are probably correct on the Toyota front. I still think that Honda got it backwards. Get the fuel efficient car on the market then offer a hotrod version. I think doing it the way Honda is going gives the impression the hybrid technology is for performance more than economy and emission ratings. In fact the HAH will not get as good of an emissions rating as the SULEV II four cylinder Accord.
I had a not so kind bumper sticker on my 04 PRIUS toward O.P.E.C when I should have directed my disgust toward local oil companies since they raised prices during Thanksgiving holidays 20 cents a gal. all the while OPEC was drastically dropping the barrel price on the world market. I must admit that I didn't care much but it still showed that somebody can manipulate prices simply to pad their own greedy pockets. By the way, shortly after the holidays gas dropped to the level I indicated earlier ($1.65)
Culliganman (last fill-up $8.98)(still liken it)