Hybrids in the News

snakeweasel

The 2006 Civic Hybrid I sat in had more headroom than the 2005 Accord Hybrid I sat in. Did not get to test drive either one.

I hope so because I had to have the seat in the Civic reclined way to far to keep my head from hitting the ceiling. Now what about shoulder room? In the regular Civic I found my arm pretty much pushed against the door.

tagman

The 2006 Civic Hybrid I sat in had more headroom than the 2005 Accord Hybrid I sat in.

An amazing car. Loads of room.

Numerous dealers sell them out here in California without ANY additional markup.

tagman

You owe it to yourself to check it out. I am 212 lbs. . . . mostly all in the right places (so far) . . . so I'm a fairly big guy people say. I fit so well, it makes me wonder how they did it! Head room - Great! Shoulder room - Great! Leg room - Great!

Go see for yourself. This is for real.

TagMan

snakeweasel

The difference between a similarly-equipped non-hybrid anda hybrid Civic is EXACTLY $2790. Period.

Sorry I don't compare similarly equipped cars unless neither have things I don't want. In other words if the Hybrid has item 'X' as standard equipment and is optional on the non-hybrid and I don't want item 'X' I will compare the hybrid with the non-hybrid without it.

FWIW a fully equipped Civic is 3k less than the hybrid going by TMV on Edmunds.

The size of the '06 Civic is so much larger than the '05

OMG the '05 must have been small, I got in an '06 last month and almost needed a shoe horn to get into it.

snakeweasel

Ok I will check it out on the way home and let you know.

BTW at 212 lbs you're not even close to me.

tagman

BTW at 212 lbs you're not even close to me.

Not even close???! Are you a former NFL player?

Let me know later . . . I'd be curious . . . but at your size you are not exactly a TYPICAL buyer. Even my 212 lbs. is larger than the average buyer . . . point being that there is a legitimate hybrid alternative for most folks out there. BTW, if there is NOT a sedan at the dealership, do NOT try a coupe instead. It will NOT substitute. It is a smaller vehicle and does not even share the same wheelbase as the sedan!!! Good luck.

to be continued . . .

TagMan

gagrice

I fit so well, it makes me wonder how they did it! Head room - Great! Shoulder room - Great! Leg room - Great!

It felt fine to my 220Lbs also. I had 4 fingers to the headliner. Only 1 finger in the Accord. The salesman did not close the door so am not sure about the shoulder room.

bobw3

The main point to the hybrid is not on the individual's gas savings, but getting this technology to every car to reduce overall gas consumption in the US. If the US suddenly required half the amount of gas for their cars, middle east oil prices wouldn't even impact the US anymore. Once oil dependency is gone, the West can leave the middle east to the locals.

bigdave2

Tagman: Can't you just say "210" pounds?

Are you really being that careful that you need to cut it that close?

or maybe this is your way of not saying "215"

:-)

seriously, how tall are you. My f-in-law says he fits just fine in the HCH (2005)- he's at 6'2" - but I don't know his inseam and I AIN'T measuring it.

snakeweasel

Not even close???! Are you a former NFL player?

Could have been. Almost 6'4 and about 250, best car I had for me sitting in was a mini van.

Let me know later . . . I'd be curious

Stopped by the local dealer and dealt with a salesman with a major attitude. Told him up front I wasn't looking to buy just wanted to see the Civic hybrid and that I didn't want to waste his time and when I wouldn't give him any more info on me (like phone number) he went off yelling "Oh you have had bad experiences at dealers before". I was tempted to say "no, not until now".

Anyways they didn't have any hybrid civics and he said they hybrid was the same size as the non hybrid. And unless they are making them bigger than last week its a no go.

but at your size you are not exactly a TYPICAL buyer.

I know but I fit in an Accent fine why not a Civic?

tagman

I give you a big salute for trying it out. It's a cool car for those under . . . well let's say . . . 6'4" and 250 lbs.

Hey, did that goofy salesman tell you that the seat also adjusts up and down quite a bit? I sure hope he at least gave you a fair crack at it.

Good try, snakeweasel.

TagMan

tagman

Tagman: Can't you just say "210" pounds?



Typically, I probably would have . . . but just yesterday I weighed myself at the health club, which I rarely do when I'm there, so it was fresh in my mind, I guess.

seriously, how tall are you

6' 1" . . . unless you want me to round that number out, too!!!

TagMan

snakeweasel

yeah had the seat all the way down.

tagman

Strange how some cars can accomodate (fit) some people and not others. I guess you are more aware of that than most! So, what's your next move?

snakeweasel

So, what's your next move?

Win the lottery and buy a CXT.

tagman

Edmunds has a terrific article about hybrids. Check it out at this link:

link title

It's a GREAT read.

TagMan

gagrice

This is just the beginning of the story. The more time you spend looking at the economics of the hybrids, the less comfortable you get.

The most important reason is a government policy that, amazingly enough, seems almost intended to undercut the benefits of efficient cars. In 1978, Congress set a minimum corporate average fuel economy, known as CAFE, for all carmakers. Today, the minimum average for cars is 27.5 miles a gallon. (For SUVs and other light trucks, it is 21.6.)

You can guess what this means for hybrids. Each one becomes a free pass for its manufacturer to sell a few extra gas guzzlers. For now, this is less true for Toyota's cars, because they're above the mileage requirement. But Toyota's trucks and the American automakers are right near the limits. So every Toyota Highlander hybrid SUV begets a hulking Lexus SUV, and every Ford Escape--the hybrid SUV that Kermit the Frog hawked during the Super Bowl--makes room for a Lincoln Navigator, which gets all of 12 miles a gallon. Instead of simply saving gas when you buy a hybrid, you're giving somebody else the right to use it.

The hybrid, then, is just about the perfect example of what's wrong with our energy policy. It's a Band-Aid that does a lot less to help the Earth than we like to tell ourselves.

Hybrids n Guzzlers

kdhspyder

In the shortterm it has some validity, so a pressure group can focus on this and say , aha!

Since they attack the market as a whole, it's like screaming for the wind to stop, they have to focus on the highest profiles the ones supplying the demand. Rather than go house to house shoot at the few large targets.

But if both F/T are putting themselves in position to sell bigger vehicles, that the market is going to demand anyway, and make them diesels in 3-5 years then this is just excellent corporate foresight and planning and in the long run more efficient than the gassers on the road presently.

gagrice

make them diesels in 3-5 years then this is just excellent corporate foresight

I am in total agreement with that idea. A small diesel PU truck is what brought me to Edmunds years ago. The more I learn the more skeptical I get that we will ever see that come to pass. I think that is what the writer here is telling us. This is politics as usual. Give the "Greenies" something to be proud of and keep building the gas guzzling PU trucks and SUVs. Toyota just happens to be the best at playing the game.

A little story: I bought my 1999 Suburban in June of 1998. The reason it was a 1999 instead of a 1998? The quota was met in May and they had to start selling 1999 MY to comply with CAFE standards.

bigdave2

it's an interesting perspective

of course, the MARKET determines which vehicles are bought, not the CAFE standards

Still, if every vehicle produced is eventually sold, then what vehicles are ultimately on the street IS determined by CAFE. (I assume the fundamental premise is true.) If that is the case, then, in order to be a green consumer, you should only purchase a vehicle from the manucturer whose CAFE average is the highest. How do the manufacturers rank?

This analysis sure does away with "personal responsibility." I suppose you could argue that the "personal responsibility" of a Corolla driver is a myth, anyway, as the net net of the Corolla purchase allows a purchase of a low MPG vehicle. The only buyers who are exer4cising personal responsibility are the ones who look at the average and only buy cars from the company with the highest average.

as if car buying wasn't complicated enough!!

tagman

of course, the MARKET determines which vehicles are bought, not the CAFE standards

I think that is well said. The recent plunge in SUV sales was an indication that consumers will not purchase gas-guzzlers forever.

Unfortunately, these same consumers have started to get a little more complacent with the higer fuel prices, expecially as the prices eased a little.

In the long run there is a lot of truth to your statement, however, and eventually, the market itself will nudge along the production of more fuel-efficient vehicles.

Bottom line . . . whatever the cause . . . it is good to have the availability of more fuel-efficient vehicles.

I, for one, will NEVER buy another gas hog again.

As the saying goes: Been there . . . done that!

TagMan

gagrice

The recent plunge in SUV sales was an indication that consumers will not purchase gas-guzzlers forever.

I think many decided the price of gas is not important in selecting a vehicle. Tahoe sales are up 35% over last year this time. Even the Suburban is up 10%. Gas is a small part of the average budget. Gasoline for most is under $125 per month. Most electric bills are more than that. Many people spend as much for cell service as gasoline. If you have a big family that you want to ride in comfort you need something bigger than a Camry.

tagman

OH, I've had one of those huge SUV's . . . Gasoline was MUCH more than your figures. You definately need to re-calculate. Real life mpg's for those big ones is horrible.

Tahoe sales are currently up because there is a brand new model that is drawing attention at the same time the gas prices have eased for now. GM's and Ford's own sales projections show a significant annual DECREASE in large SUV sales.

I agree they can be very convenient at times. Took one on a cross country trip one summer.

Sylvia

Hey everyone - if you look in the line near the title of the discussion:

Created by pf_flyer in the Hybrid Vehicles Message Board.
> click on Hybrid Vehicles.

All of the make/model hybrids will get their own boards and the main Hybrid Vehicles board will remain general news, questions, etc.

So you don't miss any of the new discussions in the general HV board - click "Track This Group" at the Hybrid Vehicles Message Board level. That will also display your membership in the Hybrid Vehicles group over on your CarSpace page.

http://www.carspace.com/sylvia

gagrice

Gasoline was MUCH more than your figures.

I would never consider an SUV a good solo commuter. I can say from experience Suburban is a nice cross country ride. To me the 17-18 MPG on the highway was worth it for the room and comfort. For my wife and I we have 5 vehicles and do not put 15,000 miles on all of them combined. We do not consider gas much of an expense. One time out to dinner with friends is more than our total fuel bill each month.

tagman

I agree that when it is blended in with 4 other vehicles, the total annual miles is diluted, and it then makes perfect sense.

Lots of folks, however, are not in your enviable position!



TagMan

bigdave2

I did this.

I now have about 100 Traced Items....not very useful.....

PF_Flyer

You can just pick and choose individual discussions that you wish to track as well. Just a matter of clicking the track this discussion link when you find one that stirs up your interest.

bigdave2

my point was, if you follow the directions, above, you will then be tracking every discussion within "hybrids"

and it's about 6 mouse clicks to remove ONE discussion

multiply that by 40 - it's somewhat of a pain

PF_Flyer

No... you can remove the tracking of the group and then pick individual discussions as you want them. That's the point I was trying to get across.

Sorry for the confusion!

bobw3

Military hybrid vehicles could boost safety, mobility
BY: Steven Komarow, USA Today*
02/14/2006

WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is developing hybrid electric engines for the replacement for the Humvee to extend the vehicle's range and increase its survival on the battlefield.

The Army and Marine Corps are testing research vehicles that combine internal-combustion engines with battery power, a concept becoming popular in civilian cars such as the Toyota Prius.

The interest in hybrid power is part of a broad effort to find new vehicles better suited to fight in wars similar to the conflict in Iraq. In past wars, the military could race ahead and then stop safely behind the front lines to refuel. In Iraq, the war is fought throughout the country, and supply convoys are always at risk. Hybrid vehicles could reduce the number of convoys.

The Army is testing a half-dozen hybrid-electric versions of the Humvee chassis at various testing grounds in the USA.

The Marines are testing a different vehicle called the RST-V (Reconnaissance, Surveillance, Targeting Vehicle), a light truck built by General Dynamics that has an electric motor at each wheel hub.

Though the hub drives have yet to prove they can be durable enough, their design could mean added safety for troops. A motor at each wheel could let the vehicle move even if one wheel is destroyed. Eliminating heavy driveshafts and other components can remove the hazard that occurs when they become projectiles after a vehicle hits a mine or bomb.

General Dynamics' spokesman Pete Keating said the company wants to test the RST-V in Iraq this year, although it hasn't worked out the details with the Marines.

Marine Col. Clarke Lethin, who oversees requirements for future vehicles at the Marine base in Quantico, Va., said hybrids could help the military achieve increased fuel economy. Other potential military advantages include:

Near-silent operation. The vehicles can operate on batteries alone, at least slowly, when troops don't want engine noise giving away their position.

A source of electricity. Instead of towing generators that provide electricity for field command posts, the rechargeable batteries in hybrid vehicles could generate that power. Hybrid batteries are recharged while the vehicle is running off its fuel source.

Acceleration. Army testing last year showed the hybrids were faster than standard Humvees for short bursts of speed.

There are downsides that could delay introduction of the new systems. An Army paper cites problems cooling the hybrid systems, which would be packed inside an armored vehicle in places such as Iraq.

The Pentagon says the production contract for the Humvee replacement will be awarded in 2009, and full production is expected to start in early 2011.

This month, the Army picked International Military and Government LLC and Lockheed Martin to build competing models of the new Humvee.

The Pentagon should have test results by early next year, said Lt. Col. Stuart Rogers, an Army program manager. The results will show military planners the most efficient engines to use in the next Humvee and also heavier trucks.

Rogers said it's too early to determine the cost of the new vehicle; a basic Humvee costs $75,000.

Despite hybrid technology's commercial use, the military still needs to determine how it will withstand battlefield conditions, Rogers said.

The Army and Marines are combining their separate research efforts this year, and the Defense Department will buy a common Humvee replacement for all services, Rogers said.

Hybrid power could eventually be replaced by even more advanced power systems, such as hydrogen fuel cells, according to research at the Army's tank and automotive design division.

tagman

Enjoyed the post.

I can see it now . . . soon to be at your nearest Hummer dealer . . . a hybrid Hummer . . .

Now there's an oxymoron if there ever was one!

TagMan

gagrice

I can see it now . . . soon to be at your nearest Hummer dealer . . . a hybrid Hummer

Painted a gecko green, how could you lose. Just think a 30 MPG Hummer 2, with a PZEV rating.

tagman

I think you're catchin' my drift.

tagman

Check this out:

http://www.platinum.matthey.com/media_room/1139846402.html

TagMan

kdhspyder

Toyota's new Celica?

http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/gossip/new-toyota-celica-coming-in-2008-hybrid-too-- 154643.php

backy

Honda Motor Co. ... plans to sell a low-cost hybrid car, a version of its popular Fit subcompact, a Japanese daily reported, signaling the auto maker's long-term commitment to the fuel-sipping powertrain.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060222/tc_nm/autos_honda_hybrid_dc

dewey

Best hybrid news this year.

This will make it the first hybrid that makes economic sense without tax incentives.

Kudos for Honda(at least until we see real world mileage)

backy

If it really gets Insight-like mpg numbers in the real world and is in the $16k ballpark, it will sell like hotcakes. Honda will have to open that Fit factory in the U.S. to keep up with demand.

snakeweasel

This will make it the first hybrid that makes economic sense without tax incentives.

What about the Hyundai Accent Hybrid which is supposed to be coming out soon?

dewey

OK the Accent may beat Honda to the punch.

dewey

Well maybe not?

Depends on the Accent's pricing and its real world mileage? Both of which are unknown at this point of time.

snakeweasel

Well according to what I read Hyundai is claiming an increase of 44% MPG city which would make it about 46MPG city. Looks like less than the Fit will get.

Pricing is another thing altogether. I heard sub $15k but I think that it is more likely to be in the $16-17K range (MSRP for a base Accent is around $13,300 with auto, in the $16's fully loaded). Might undercut the Fit.

backy

A loaded Accent tops out at a bit over $15k. Depending on the equipment on the Accent hybrid, it would be at least $16k, probably more if it has features like automatic/CVT and power package.

varmint

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060222/UPDATE/602220433/1148- /AUTO01

The above article mentions the notion of selling a hybrid at a lower price point. Is a less expensive hybrid a good idea? Or are the popular hybrids really toys for the greenies who don't really have to worry about penny pinching?

I'm not yet convinced this would be a good offering for the US.

snakeweasel

I'm not yet convinced this would be a good offering for the US.

Why wouldn't it be? It would allow more people to be able to afford them and it would save gas.

Until they do get within a reasonable price difference of a non hybrid alternative all hybrids will be are novelty toys.

kdhspyder

If you want to send less money to the MidEast and keep more here it sure sounds like a good idea. Even if it's only a 20-25% savings multiplied by millions of drivers that a lot of money our 'friends' dont get to use.

It may surprise you but one of the key reasons for buying a new vehicle is to reduce the cost of driving. Corolla's Civics and even Cobalts are selling like mad.

tagman

This will make it the first hybrid that makes economic sense without tax incentives.

The difference in price between the non-hybrid version and the hybrid version, as well as the difference in fuel efficiency will determine whether or not it makes economic sense.

Of course, if there is still a tax incentive available when it is released, then that will help as well.

While we have already discussed some of this, it is my opinion that the '06 Civic Hybrid and the Toyota Prius already make economic sense.

This is also further evidence that the hybrid technology is going to get better and cheaper over the next few years.

Also, the production of low-sulphur diesel is going to change the playing field shortly by allowing the use of cleaner-burning modern diesels.

gagrice

Detroit News says $11,800 making the base Fit $10,200.

The Fit hybrid is expected to sell at about 1.4 million yen ($11,800), about 200,000 yen ($1,600) more than the regular Fit, the report said.

Honda quotes a much higher base price for the FIt. Looks like a $20k car by the time it hits our showrooms.

a super-friendly base model starting price of between $13,000 and $14,000. Plus, Sport models with automatic transmission come equipped with steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters. So step right in and take a closer look.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fit/index.aspx

bamacar

How did you figure the $20k?

base $10,200 Hybrid $11,800 That is a $1600 difference. Even if you used percentages, that is a 15.7% increase.

Using the maximum base of $14000. Hybrid would be $15600 using $1600 diffrence. It would be $16200 with a 15.7% increase.

Personally I would predict about $18k to keep it a few thousand less than the Civic Hybrid.