Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

roadburner

kyfdx said:

We bought an '87 325iS in 2011. Had the original sticker with the paperwork. $28,400.

My 318ti stickered for a bit over $25,000. My 1988 M6 had an MSRP of $56,000(but I paid a bit more than than half that amount four years later).

roadburner

js06gv said:

Another punch. The lease on my daughter's '14 Optima is up in Feb but took advantage of a great year-end deal with nice lease cash and leased a '16 SX Technology. Same terms as before, 36/12 on a car that lists for $4,500 more, residual about a grand more at lease end, and did it for $15 more a month. I'm not the type who normally shops for a monthly payment, but I know that's the game with leases. I don't put anything down but first payment, and roll tax/license in. Same scam as it's always been in Texas in that you pay sales tax on full amount on a lease, as opposed to only the portion you use.

So now I have two Optimas. No lease pull ahead programs at the moment but I should be able to flip the old one for right at lease buyout or maybe a little more. I'm usually good at moving cars on Craigslist and this one is clean with only 30K. I look at it as a project, and I also have a detailing job ahead of me. Worst case, I keep it until lease end and use up the 6K I have coming to me in lieu of putting that on our other cars.

New car is great and what an improvement over the 2014 in features, quality, safety equipment (the damn thing nearly drives itself compared to what I'm used to...), refinement, etc....The new one is also for my daughter. We just moved her into her dorm room today at Oklahoma State where we she starts as a freshman next week. This was another reason why I moved sooner than later. I didn't want to mess with getting a new car in the middle of a school year with her 4 hours away and there's no way the substantial lease cash or leftover 2016s would be around in Feb. I know, much more car (so was the old one) than a kid needs but she's an only child born to a car nut father, so what can I say.

Last, thanks as always to @Michaell and team for keeping me up to date on lease terms and cash. No way I could've scored the deal without that info.

Congrats!

fintail

Congrats, fancy car for a student. I still own the ancient car I drove while in school

Historic MSRPs really show how today's cars are a bargain (relative to prior MSRPs), and how once semi-exotic makes have become more mainstream.

My 1989 300SE had a sticker of 53K - this was the cheapest S-class available, and a real bargain as it was an older platform, and an 300E started at little over 40K then. Today you can get a basic S-class (a V8 with more gadgets than anyone in 1989 would have imagined) for a bit under 100K, which is less than the 1989 equivalent adjusted for inflation, and a basic E is around 55K, same story with inflation. No doubt these lower than inflation prices help move sales - I doubt basic E and 5er etc would sell today if they started at 80K.

stickguy

At BMW dealer, the 5 looked like a better deal than a 3. A modest equipped 328 was about 52k, and a better equipped 5 series was about 61k

fintail

I agree about those price differentials. A loaded C can easily pass 60K, and you can get a decently optioned E for not a lot more, relative to the size and maybe prestige of the car.

sda

My '98 Millenia stickered for around $34k, and the '98 Catera which was loaded with all options was $39k. Look at what you can buy today for the same amount. Much better today, no comparison.

andres3

xwesx said:

andres3 said:

Andres, you are just too spoiled with a TTs as your daily driver!

Yes, that about sums it up. However, I could be spoiled by your TDI's nearly double the gas mileage as well.

stickguy

don't really need the TDI for that. My daughter (with the Jetta sport) routinely gets 38-39 on trips up from NC to Jersey. and based on her elapsed time, she is not poking along to get that mileage. And the new 1.4t engine is supposed to add another 3-5 MPG to that. and it runs on rug!

Mr_Shiftright

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

roadburner said:

au1994 said:

Remind me again why I like them??

Well, older BMWs(and newer ones, if properly equipped) offer a combination of performance, comfort, and practicality that is very hard to beat. As newer enthusiast cars go, the only cars I might like better than my 2er would be the GT350, Boss 302, and Cayman S.

Cayman S is an awesome car---IMO, almost the perfect automobile if you could only own just one car. And yes, I know it can't haul a sheet of plywood.

The Cayman S didn't blow me away; I test drove a '14 with about 25K miles on it. It had the PDK transmission which worked great, but I think I'm spoiled by turbos and superchargers for the ultimate feel of ample power on demand at all times. Maybe the one I drove was missing a cylinder or two, LOL. In all seriousness if someone had told me I just test drove a non-S Cayman I'd of believed them.

Did you "get on it"? You have to be in the upper rev range on those cars and you have to "stay on cam".

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

roadburner said:

au1994 said:

Remind me again why I like them??

Well, older BMWs(and newer ones, if properly equipped) offer a combination of performance, comfort, and practicality that is very hard to beat. As newer enthusiast cars go, the only cars I might like better than my 2er would be the GT350, Boss 302, and Cayman S.

Cayman S is an awesome car---IMO, almost the perfect automobile if you could only own just one car. And yes, I know it can't haul a sheet of plywood.

The Cayman S didn't blow me away; I test drove a '14 with about 25K miles on it. It had the PDK transmission which worked great, but I think I'm spoiled by turbos and superchargers for the ultimate feel of ample power on demand at all times. Maybe the one I drove was missing a cylinder or two, LOL. In all seriousness if someone had told me I just test drove a non-S Cayman I'd of believed them.

Did you "get on it"? You have to be in the upper rev range on those cars and you have to "stay on cam".

Yes, briefly, as I did notice the ultra high red line, so it reminded me of the old Honda's that are very rev happy, and when you get to the upper RPM's, that is where all the power is. I didn't spend a lot of time above 6,000 RPM, but when I did it was much better. Some people like that surge of power at the end of the tachometer, I think I'm in the group that likes more balanced power through the whole rev range.

qbrozen

I achieved 40mpg in the Honda Fit. I have yet to actually do that with the TDI. The OBC claimed I was over 40, but my real calculation when I filled up was 36. Oddly, no matter what the OBC has told me, which has varied from 36-40mpg, I have only averaged 35-36 on every tank.

andres3

You achieved 40 MPG in the Fit in "average" driving? Not just highway?

roadburner

stickguy said:

At BMW dealer, the 5 looked like a better deal than a 3. A modest equipped 328 was about 52k, and a better equipped 5 series was about 61k

The best 3er to lease is the 330e plug-in hybrid. The 5ers are terrific cruisers but not all that exciting to drive(M5 excepted).

That said, in about 45 more days I'll probably have an i3 in the garage; a sub $100/month lease with no money down is too tempting to resist.

nyccarguy

"The best 3er to lease is the 330e plug-in hybrid"

Yes, but would you actually want to drive it?

qbrozen

andres3 said:

You achieved 40 MPG in the Fit in "average" driving? Not just highway?

Yes. It wouldn't do so well on the highway. I don't know how average driving around my area is, though. Lots of long stretches of 2 lane 40-50mph roads with no traffic. I only did that once when I first got the Fit. When I started beating on it, I was in the mid 30s, much like the Jetta.

stevedebi

qbrozen said:

I achieved 40mpg in the Honda Fit. I have yet to actually do that with the TDI. The OBC claimed I was over 40, but my real calculation when I filled up was 36. Oddly, no matter what the OBC has told me, which has varied from 36-40mpg, I have only averaged 35-36 on every tank.

Wow, that seems low. Our 2014 Passat SE TDI gets over 40 every fill up. Mostly road miles, but about 1/3 of the daily miles are in town. My wife has a 20 mile commute. Average lifetime is a bit over 40.5. The lowest I've ever recorded is 39.4.

Of course, going to turn it in and collect the money. Looking at a Jetta SEL Premium (the only one with power seats) to replace it. But that is assuming I find a job between now and the turn in. If not, I'm driving the 2002 Civic and she is driving my 2014 C-Max Energi until the job comes through.

qbrozen

I am NOT a gentle driver.

roadburner

nyccarguy said:

"The best 3er to lease is the 330e plug-in hybrid"

Yes, but would you actually want to drive it?

You can get the M Sport package on the 330e, so it would be a dandy daily driver- especially if your commute suited the car's strengths. For example, my wife's daily commute is 14 miles round trip- entirely on rural roads. Working five days per week she'd almost no gasoline. Still, she's lobbying for an i3 with the Range Extender; the lease is so cheap we can keep the X3 for really bad weather and she will save so much on fuel that the it will pay for the lease as well as the additional insurance...

kyfdx

Just need to hope that those lease deals extend into October..

roadburner

kyfdx said:

Just need to hope that those lease deals extend into October..

Yes; they are just insane.

28firefighter

What kind of deals are you seeing on the 330e? I saw there is a high-ish residual and a $3000 lease credit. Can you also take the $7500 federal rebate on top of that, or no?

roadburner

Can't take the tax credit on a lease. A manufacturer gets 68% of the individual tax credit when it leases a car. NA wants to move the i3 so they give a $7500 lease credit for that car and "lose" money. If you bought a 330e the credit would be $4001 so BMW is still putting up more cash than they actually get(75% vs. 68%).

qbrozen

Pretty toy.

Yeah, the automatic hurts a little, but I sure like that color combo.

ab348

Likewise. I always liked that blue they used, and nice that the interior is not black. Pretty car.

nyccarguy

28firefighter said:

What kind of deals are you seeing on the 330e? I saw there is a high-ish residual and a $3000 lease credit. Can you also take the $7500 federal rebate on top of that, or no?

@roadburner's comment had me start poking around. A dealer near me in NY has a 330e with a $53,645 sticker price. If you could negotiate a $45,550 selling price ($50,050 invoice minus $3,000 lease incentive minus $1,500 USAA discount). Using the 63% residual & .00137 money factor, I come up with a $462.84 lease payment for 3 years/15K miles per year.

28firefighter

nyccarguy said:

@roadburner's comment had me start poking around. A dealer near me in NY has a 330e with a $53,645 sticker price. If you could negotiate a $45,550 selling price ($50,050 invoice minus $3,000 lease incentive minus $1,500 USAA discount). Using the 63% residual & .00137 money factor, I come up with a $462.84 lease payment for 3 years/15K miles per year.

Call me crazy, I just don't really qualify that as "cheap" on a lease. To me, cheap lease means $350/month or less. I suppose its all relative.

qbrozen

I'm with you. $463/mo for a compact car is spendy.

Michaell

qbrozen said:

I'm with you. $463/mo for a compact car is spendy.

$463/mo on a $54K car is a good payment.

It's all relative.

Does that include tax?

nyccarguy

So there are 2 ways to look at this:

Yes $463/month (including tax) is a cheap lease payment on a $54K BMW, but it is somewhat of an expensive monthly payment to not own a vehicle. After 3 years, the guy who leases the car has just spent $16,668 for a vehicle he or she doesn't own.

My Legacy payment is $405.07 per month for 6 years. It's a $25K car.

xwesx

nyccarguy said:

So there are 2 ways to look at this:

Yes $463/month (including tax) is a cheap lease payment on a $54K BMW, but it is somewhat of an expensive monthly payment to not own a vehicle. After 3 years, the guy who leases the car has just spent $16,668 for a vehicle he or she doesn't own.

My Legacy payment is $405.07 per month for 6 years. It's a $25K car.

Right. That's really the "balance" when it comes to leases.... how much do you put into it vs. how long do you keep it? In many (most?) cases, if someone intends to replace a car within a few years anyway, the amount you end up spending on the lease is about the same if not less than what you would spend in payments. Strictly on an expense vs. time basis, a lease comes out ahead over the first few years.

breld

Your real cost whether you purchase or lease is the depreciation, right? So the economics are the same either way, though the actual cash flow varies.

qbrozen

I just feel BMWs aren't worth their MSRP these days.

Michaell

nyccarguy said:

Yes $463/month (including tax) is a cheap lease payment on a $54K BMW, but it is somewhat of an expensive monthly payment to not own a vehicle.

You should check out some of the lease discussions of high end vehicles. I've had questions regarding $1000-1500 per month or higher for S-class, 7-series or S8's. Same with the Nissan GT-R.

28firefighter

Michaell said:

nyccarguy said:

Yes $463/month (including tax) is a cheap lease payment on a $54K BMW, but it is somewhat of an expensive monthly payment to not own a vehicle.

You should check out some of the lease discussions of high end vehicles. I've had questions regarding $1000-1500 per month or higher for S-class, 7-series or S8's. Same with the Nissan GT-R.

Even if I had the money, I'm not sure I could justify that kind of scratch on a car.

Michaell

28firefighter said:

Michaell said:

nyccarguy said:

Yes $463/month (including tax) is a cheap lease payment on a $54K BMW, but it is somewhat of an expensive monthly payment to not own a vehicle.

You should check out some of the lease discussions of high end vehicles. I've had questions regarding $1000-1500 per month or higher for S-class, 7-series or S8's. Same with the Nissan GT-R.

Even if I had the money, I'm not sure I could justify that kind of scratch on a car.

The fun ones are the folks who post in the WRX discussion about wanting to put $5000 down on a lease so the monthly payment is $250/mo.

Very rarely will I provide advice of a financial nature, though I want to shout at some of them.

28firefighter

Michaell said:

The fun ones are the folks who post in the WRX discussion about wanting to put $5000 down on a lease so the monthly payment is $250/mo.

Very rarely will I provide advice of a financial nature, though I want to shout at some of them.

I have some friends who will come to me AFTER they've bought/leased asking if they got a good deal.

Recently one of them came to me after leasing a BMW 340 xDrive. They asked me if the monthly payment they got was good - and it was - it was something like $325/month after tax on a 50k+ MSRP car. I asked them how much money they put down and they said nothing. I asked them if they traded a car in - and there it was. They put something like $10,000 in equity from their trade down on the lease. It took everything in me not to smack them.

qbrozen

Still can't understand why y'all are so insistent on putting nothing down on a lease. Yes, I am aware if you total it, you lose it, but as I have stated before, the same is true of a finance or even cash purchase, but nobody has a problem with putting money down on those.

Mr_Shiftright

Well for one thing, the down money is taxable---you don't get to spread the tax out like you would with a no-down.

qbrozen

I don't follow. The car is taxed in all instances.

stever

28firefighter said:

I have some friends who will come to me AFTER they've bought/leased asking if they got a good deal.

That happens frequently in the Prices Paid discussions. We try to reassure them and then invite to come see us first the next time they buy a car.

28firefighter

In theory on a purchase, the down money is giving you equity. That is, if something happens and your car is totaled, you'll get back whatever is left after paying off your loan. In the case of a lease, the lease will be paid off and there is nothing else.

 I realize that in many cases even with money down on a purchase, folks are upside down and GAP is covering the difference anyway. In that case I suppose it doesn't really matter. 

kyfdx

qbrozen said:

Still can't understand why y'all are so insistent on putting nothing down on a lease. Yes, I am aware if you total it, you lose it, but as I have stated before, the same is true of a finance or even cash purchase, but nobody has a problem with putting money down on those.

The main difference from my viewpoint is that the bank is giving you insurance (GAP) for the lease,, and you are basically giving that benefit back, by making a big downpayment.

That isn't the case on a purchase.

Plus, we see a lot people lose sight of the actual monthly cost of a vehicle, which is what a lease is supposed to represent. If you really understand the numbers, then do what you want. But, we see more lessees that match @28firefighter 's experience. They don't really understand the true monthly cost of the lease.

qbrozen

You can get GAP on a purchase, too. And we all know cars depreciate significantly as soon as you buy or lease it. 

28firefighter

I think @kyfdx articulated it better than I did.

My personal opinion is that I would never put money down to rent a car from the airport and to me leasing is a just a glorified rental. 

nyccarguy

qbrozen said:

I don't follow. The car is taxed in all instances.

One of the line items on a lease agreement is a "cap reduction tax." So you are paying money down to make your payments cheaper & have to pay tax to your state for the pleasure of doing so.

qbrozen

nyccarguy said:

I don't follow. The car is taxed in all instances.

One of the line items on a lease agreement is a "cap reduction tax." So you are paying money down to make your payments cheaper & have to pay tax to your state for the pleasure of doing so.

I still don't understand the distinction. Of course you are paying sales tax even if you pay up front. Paying cash for a vehicle doesn't make the tax go away.

nyccarguy

breld said:

Your real cost whether you purchase or lease is the depreciation, right? So the economics are the same either way, though the actual cash flow varies.

Exactly @breld. That's why leasing does exist & does work for some people. Take my Dad for example. He is on his 3rd Chevy Tahoe, an expensive vehicle that depreciates on the heavy side. He also drives 25K miles per year and commutes to work with a 120 lb Great Dane. Between the dog & the mileage, things ain't pretty at trade in time.

After purchasing A 2010 Tahoe which he traded in for a 2011 Tahoe (in 2012), there was $4,000 in negative equity rolled from the 2010 (2.9% for 60 months) into the 2011 Tahoe (0% for 72 months). When he traded in the 2011 Tahoe for the 2015 Tahoe (in 2014), he was still about $4K under water.

Here's where the beauty of the lease comes in. Depreciation costs are fixed. GM financial says his 2015 Tahoe will be worth 56% or 53% of its value after 39 months and 65,000 miles. His lease payment including 8.875% sales tax, 20,000 miles per year, & $4,000 in negative equity, & an extended warranty comes to $925 per month. Not cheap. But considering his previous 2 Tahoes depreciated more than 50% in less than 3 years, he made the smart move (in my opinion).

stever

Won't he be 15,000 miles over and have a doggie destroyed interior though?

nyccarguy

He might go a little over the miles, but not 15K. He drives between 20K & 25K per year. The 20K is commuting & the rest is summer vacation. My parents always take Dad's truck. He did over 2200 miles this year (ny to pigeon forge, TN, & eventually ending up in Myrtle Beach) and close to 2200 miles last summer (ny to St Simmons Island, GA). If he sees he's going to be WAY over, they can take my Mom's Cayenne (which they own).

Despite the dog, the interior doesn't take a beating. The only seat that gets used on a daily basis is the driver's seat. He had plywood cut to the interior dimensions of the Tahoe with the seats folded down. There is a carpeted, rubber mat laid on top of the plywood and screwed on with wood blocks. He's got HUSKY liners protecting the floors in all 3 rows. When the wood is taken up & the truck is cleaned, you'd be hard pressed to know he travels with a dog on a daily basis.

mjfloyd1

qbrozen said:

Still can't understand why y'all are so insistent on putting nothing down on a lease. Yes, I am aware if you total it, you lose it, but as I have stated before, the same is true of a finance or even cash purchase, but nobody has a problem with putting money down on those.

There is a better way to "put money down" at least on BMW and Audi that is fully refundable no matter what. Multiple security deposits are used to lower your money factor and are fully refundable at lease turn in or if you total the vehicle before lease end.