Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

mjfloyd1

28firefighter said:

nyccarguy said:

@roadburner's comment had me start poking around. A dealer near me in NY has a 330e with a $53,645 sticker price. If you could negotiate a $45,550 selling price ($50,050 invoice minus $3,000 lease incentive minus $1,500 USAA discount). Using the 63% residual & .00137 money factor, I come up with a $462.84 lease payment for 3 years/15K miles per year.

Call me crazy, I just don't really qualify that as "cheap" on a lease. To me, cheap lease means $350/month or less. I suppose its all relative.

My local Audi dealer quoted a "deal" ok a 17 RS7 - 36 month lease with 12k miles per yr with nothing down (135kmsrp) for "only" 2444 per month. Or I could save almost 8k by prepaying about $80k up front ( to borrow their car for 3 yrs). Crazy.

28firefighter

If I can afford to prepay $80k, I can probably afford to buy the whole car and not need a lease. 

fintail

Who would prepay so much? I bet you could get a 2 year old off lease one for not much more. That Audi lease deal is pretty awful, too. I would expect maybe 10K up front and maybe 1500/month. Audis do seem to lease poorly compared to other Germans. Maybe VW can't afford to be as optimistic with residuals. I keep a number in my head that no more than 5% up front and 1% per month is a fair deal, but I have not extrapolated that into more advanced terms to make sure.

I look at a lease as being a good deal relative to MSRP vs payment and any cap reduction payment. A new Rolls Phantom with $1000 up front and $1000/month is a good deal, even if it is a chunk of change. I think for someone who wants new, and wants to change up every 5 years or less, leasing can be a better value. Of course the best value is a nice used car driven until it is worn out, but that's a criminal thought and against this entire forum.

Michaell

I've found that Audi, by and large, do tend to lease worse than BMW or MB. Mainly because the residual values set by AFS are more, shall we say, "realistic".

mjfloyd1

28firefighter said:

If I can afford to prepay $80k, I can probably afford to buy the whole car and not need a lease. 

I agree

kyfdx

qbrozen said:

nyccarguy said:

qbrozen said:

I don't follow. The car is taxed in all instances.

One of the line items on a lease agreement is a "cap reduction tax." So you are paying money down to make your payments cheaper & have to pay tax to your state for the pleasure of doing so.

I still don't understand the distinction. Of course you are paying sales tax even if you pay up front. Paying cash for a vehicle doesn't make the tax go away.

GAP is included on a lease (except for Toyota). It's a benefit you are giving away, if you make a large downpayment. That's it, in a nutshell.

If I crack the nut open.... In NJ, you can roll your taxes into the lease, and protect against paying all of the tax upfront, and getting no refund if the car is totaled.
The difference between lease and purchase? If you want GAP on a purchase, you have to pay extra for it.
Otherwise, no difference (as noted).

qbrozen

All understood. Still no good reason why the big deal about putting down on a lease vs a purchase ... within reason. For example, you put $10k down on a lease and odds are you'll get nothing if totalled, whereas you might get a couple or few grand back if you purchased it. But if we're talking just a few grand down, you are losing it either way. As long as we are all in agreement that putting down money on a lease is not the crime some of you feel it is.

stickguy

It is a crime against economics (time value of money!)

qbrozen

Only if the rate is low, which, again, applies to a finance as well.

kyfdx

qbrozen said:

All understood. Still no good reason why the big deal about putting down on a lease vs a purchase ... within reason. For example, you put $10k down on a lease and odds are you'll get nothing if totalled, whereas you might get a couple or few grand back if you purchased it. But if we're talking just a few grand down, you are losing it either way. As long as we are all in agreement that putting down money on a lease is not the crime some of you feel it is.

Agreed on all counts. And, even if you go overboard with the downpayment, the insurance company will still payoff the actual value of the vehicle. Anything over the payoff amount should come back to the lessee, but I don't like to leave that in anyone else's hands.

As someone that gives a lot of advice to potential first time lessees, it's to not to let a big downpayment obscure the actual monthly cost of the vehicle. If you put $7000 upfront on the lease, the real monthly payment is $200 higher than the check you send to the bank. Every time someone says they lease a $40K car for $300/mo, that's the back story.

henryn

qbrozen said:

I achieved 40mpg in the Honda Fit. I have yet to actually do that with the TDI. The OBC claimed I was over 40, but my real calculation when I filled up was 36. Oddly, no matter what the OBC has told me, which has varied from 36-40mpg, I have only averaged 35-36 on every tank.

The '13 Passat TDI did 35.1 mpg on the one tank I have used so far. Mostly city driving, heavy freeway traffic, red lights, etc.

roadburner

kyfdx said:

Every time someone says they lease a $40K car for $300/mo, that's the back story.

Not with some manufacturer's employee leases; one of my co-workers leased a car with an MSRP of $40,400 for $285/month with $500 out-of-pocket...

Michaell

Found out that "Steve", the '06 Saturn ION we bought for our daughter when she went off to college, is no longer in the family.

It's served us well for 10 years and 135,000 miles. 3 years back and forth to school, then I took it over for pizza delivery duties for about 4 years. When I leased the E-GT almost 3 years ago, we gifted it to our son and step-daughter so they could have a second car.

Recently, the son bought the F250 for his fledgling construction business, so they had an extra car. A co-worker of the daughter in law needed reliable transportation, so a deal was struck. $2000 took it away.

It didn't look all that great, cosmetically, but it still runs like a top.

graphicguy

js06gv said:

stickguy said:

ah. did not realize that was the turbo. I don't have that.

Vette, they do have a 1.6t model (eco?), but that sits slightly above (maybe to the side) or the NA motor models.

That 1.6T is an odd duck. Sounds like a good motor with positive reviews from all the car mags, but only avail on the base LX so you can't get it loaded with leather etc. Have to step up to EX for that, and then you're back in the base 2.4L again. The 1.6T LX is a new trim level for '16. 



JS...congrats on the punch!

graphicguy

RB...not sure if BMW hasn't marketed their e cars, or I just haven't paid attention. But, help me understand.

IS the i3 or 330e strictly electrics? Hybrids? What drivetrains do they use?

qbrozen

the i3 is electric, but you can get an optional small engine (range extender).

330e is a plug-in hybrid.

Mr_Shiftright

It has like a 2 gallon gas tank or some such?

qbrozen

I believe that is correct. However, I think I just read that it will only let you use 1.6 of those 2 gallons because the weird rules state it has to have more range on the batteries than the gas. 

mlevine

My son kept telling me his friend is paying less than he is on a dodge charger. His has an SXT and his friend has a RT. Something did not sound right. Then I got the details. His friend's RT had about 5K miles on it and was considered a used car. He also put money down, unsure how much. I also asked how many months was his loan? Not sure. That's why his car cost less than yours. As in prior posts, there is always a bit of information missing. I told my son your car was new and you did not put a lot of money down.

Mr_Shiftright

qbrozen said:

I believe that is correct. However, I think I just read that it will only let you use 1.6 of those 2 gallons because the weird rules state it has to have more range on the batteries than the gas. 

Yes, now I remember because the system is so "German". The gas tank is actually 2.4 gallons but on previous models they only let you consume 1.9 gallons and then they shut the fuel pump off.

For the new model, since it gets greater range on electric power (114 miles), BMW engineers now allow you to use the full capacity of the tank. But the tank is the same size as in the old car!

The idea behind this is that the regulations state that the range of the gas engine cannot exceed the range of the batteries.

28firefighter

Punch is in for me! I've temporarily added the A3 TDI to my stable. Not sure how long we will hold onto it - I really like it. Wife not as big a fan.

kyfdx

28firefighter said:

Punch is in for me! I've temporarily added the A3 TDI to my stable. Not sure how long we will hold onto it - I really like it. Wife not as big a fan.

Congrats! That is a fine looking car. You won't want to give it back.

28firefighter

I already am feeling pangs of guilt about it. I put about 100 miles on it today and love the damn thing. If I had had the forethought, I might have bought this instead of the GTI.

Of course now I have both and want both...wife might trade me in...

mjfloyd1

Another punch. Traded 2012 Acura MDX tech with 117K miles for 2013 VW Passat TDI SE with sunroof with 19.7k miles. $1995 difference . Passat was manufacturer buyback for blown turbo and they replaced the long block, turbo, and catalytic converter. Branded title but it is fine for TDI buyback purposes (I called to double check). Buyback on Passat TDI looks to be $23.5K. Interesting because I would have avoided a manufacturer buyback branded title like the plaque if it weren't for the TDI buyback. Averaged 36mpg going 80 mph on the way home...

qbrozen

Cayennes caught my eye today. 2006 v8 models are under $20k these days. Hmmmm...

mjfloyd1

I like the red hot chili peppers too...

nyccarguy

qbrozen said:

Cayennes caught my eye today. 2006 v8 models are under $20k these days. Hmmmm...

Those are pretty durable too. They are heavy. They EAT tires and brakes. I have a customer that had a 2006 V6 Cayenne. He took it to 192K miles.

corvette

nyccarguy said:

qbrozen said:

Cayennes caught my eye today. 2006 v8 models are under $20k these days. Hmmmm...

Those are pretty durable too. They are heavy. They EAT tires and brakes. I have a customer that had a 2006 V6 Cayenne. He took it to 192K miles.

A lot of German cars spec a lot of negative camber (I think) on the alignment. Makes them handle like a go cart but not so good for tire wear.

qbrozen

nyccarguy said:

Cayennes caught my eye today. 2006 v8 models are under $20k these days. Hmmmm...

Those are pretty durable too. They are heavy. They EAT tires and brakes. I have a customer that had a 2006 V6 Cayenne. He took it to 192K miles.

I came across an owner on a message board who had 325k miles on a Turbo model. 

roadburner

Some Cayenne V8s have plastic coolant lines running under the intake manifold that can split. Replacement with steel lines is the permanent(albeit pricey) solution. BMW V8s have a similar issue.

qbrozen

Yes, I read about that, as well as the driveshaft carrier bearing needing regular replacement. So those coolant lines are under the manifold, huh? Was hoping I could look for that before buying but I guess I can't.

brian125

This is a good article on leasing and the do's and don'ts. http://www.realcartips.com/leasing/0314-dont-put-down-payment-on-car-lease.shtml

The NY times had a article on car Ins. recently that the average person has a $1000 dollar deductible on fire / theft collision. Not only is putting a lot of money down on a lease foolish and defeat leasing purpose the Ins. co will take its 1k off the top before sending out your check.

graphicguy

firefighter.....congrats on the punch!

Mr_Shiftright

qbrozen said:

Cayennes caught my eye today. 2006 v8 models are under $20k these days. Hmmmm...

Here's one for under $12,000

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/ctd/5728455964.html

I have friends who own a Porsche shop in the Bay Area if you want a PPI.

mjfloyd1

Punch one. One month ago. Getting clear bra and window tint tomorrow

mjfloyd1

Punch two, yesterday

mjfloyd1

Bought RS7 at Audi Hunt Valley in Cockeysville, MD
Bought Passat TDI at Bobbi Jo's in Mt. Vernon, IN
Very different experiences...

28firefighter

mjfloyd1 said:

Very different experiences...

I cannot imagine why!

qbrozen

Mr_Shiftright said:

Cayennes caught my eye today. 2006 v8 models are under $20k these days. Hmmmm...

Here's one for under $12,000 http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/ctd/5728455964.html I have friends who own a Porsche shop in the Bay Area if you want a PPI.

Oh, well, thanks for that, Shifty, but I'm pretty sure I'd take my chances with one of the many low mileage examples in my area.

Mr_Shiftright

I wasn't being serious. 137K is pretty miled up. Just pointing out how cheap they can be. I wouldn't personally touch one over 80K tops.

corvette

Congrats on the punches, everyone! Here is the 2016 list so far. Please let me know if I missed anything!

2016 Punch List (total 26):
01/02/16 jpp5682 2016 VW Touareg Luxury w/Driver Assist (lease)
01/09/16 breld 2012 BMW X5 35d 30k
01/21/16 breld 2016 VW Jetta Sport (lease)
01/30/16 roadburner 2015 BMW M235i CPO xxk
03/03/16 au1994 2013 Mercedes E350 cabriolet 34k
03/07/16 breld 2012 MINI Cooper 20k
04/03/16 corvette 2012 Nissan Murano SL 53k
05/02/16 andres3 2016 Audi TTS
05/03/16 carnaught 2017 Audi A4 Premium Plus
05/17/16 graphicguy’s son 2016 VW GTI Track Pack
05/28/16 sb55 2014 BMW 535d X-drive
05/30/16 eriknorcal 2012 VW GTI DSG 52k
06/17/16 elias 2016 Chevrolet Sonic LT 1.4T
06/19/16 fintail 2016 Mercedes E250 Bluetec 4matic (lease)
06/27/16 tifighter 2016 Kia Soul EV (lease)
07/04/16 au1994 2013 BMW 335i convertible 23k
07/09/16 breld 2013 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI 26k
07/13/16 mjfloyd1 2016 Audi RS7
07/19/16 qbrozen 2014 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI 27k
07/19/16 kyfdx 2013 Audi A3 TDI Premium 97k
07/22/16 benjaminh 2016 Honda Accord EX
07/22/16 graphicguy 1998 Ford Mustang Cobra 28k
07/22/16 henryn 2013 VW Passat TDI SE 65k
07/25/16 breld 2015 Audi SQ5 7k
07/30/16 xwesx 2013 VW Passat TDI SEL Premium 43k
08/08/16 28firefighter 2013 Audi A3 TDI Premium Plus 47k
08/11/16 js06gv 2016 Kia Optima SX Technology (lease)
08/13/16 mjfloyd1 2013 VW Passat TDI SE 20k

tjc78

Lots of VW and Audi love on these boards. Only two American cars. Wow.

qbrozen

Mr_Shiftright said:

I wasn't being serious. 137K is pretty miled up. Just pointing out how cheap they can be. I wouldn't personally touch one over 80K tops.

I know you weren't

mjfloyd1

These pictures are"more better" as we like to say in southern Indiana...

corvette

tjc78 said:

Lots of VW and Audi love on these boards. Only two American cars. Wow.

To be fair, most of the recent TDI purchases are what I would call opportunistic rather than people who specifically set out to buy a VW/Audi.

Michaell

It's still possible I could have a punch in the next couple of months.

@corvette how do the punch guesses line up?

kyfdx

7 of those, so far.

roadburner

qbrozen said:

Yes, I read about that, as well as the driveshaft carrier bearing needing regular replacement. So those coolant lines are under the manifold, huh? Was hoping I could look for that before buying but I guess I can't.

Here's a coolant pipe repair kit. Not bad if you are brave enough to tackle it yourself. I'm probably crazy enough to attempt it...

ab348

corvette said:

tjc78 said:

Lots of VW and Audi love on these boards. Only two American cars. Wow.

To be fair, most of the recent TDI purchases are what I would call opportunistic rather than people who specifically set out to buy a VW/Audi.

Yep. Maybe the number should have an asterisk like Roger Maris' home run record used to have.

kyfdx

kyfdx said:

7 of those, so far.

I guess @corvette 's will make eight TDI purchases, once it shows up