Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

kyfdx

@nyccarguy Congrats to your son!

tjc78

nyccarguy said:

"Yeah mine is consistently over 30 no matter how much I beat the heck out of it.  It’s also in sport mode constantly."

You aren't having enough fun.  I can't break 20 mpg and I don't care 1 bit.

on a side note, my 11 year old son & his Pee Wee hockey team won their state championship this afternoon.  

Ha ha... difference is your car can actually get out of it's own way!

And Congrats!!

stickguy

That’s why the sport is a better option. Comparable mpg, but definitely gets out of it’s own way.

jpp75

Congrats @nyccarguy I know you're proud of your son and his team!

graphicguy

Congrats, Bradd. You should be rightfully proud!

andres3

So took my Kia in for the 18K mile service (same as 15K mile service).

So they upsell me the 15K service which includes a cabin filter and a fuel induction carbon-build-up cleaning fuel service. Strange to do that at at 15K (or 18K) miles, even my old '06 Direct-Injected A3 didn't need that more often than every 30K miles.

Perhaps turbos running on low octane dirty 87 gasoline need this? There goes your 87 vs. 91 gas savings out the window!

Also, they did a quick mobile Hunter alignment check, and told me 3 of the 4 listed settings were off. I again said, never had to do an alignment at 15K miles before, but go ahead and do it.

Now I know why they offer the super cheap 3 oil change packages! They are not selling oil!

So I'm starting to think a Kia is more expensive to maintain than an Audi on average.......

And no, I didn't hit any particular pot holes or bumps extra hard in the Kia.

However, maybe all of this fuel system cleaning and induction cleaning and alignment will get my fuel economy closer to the EPA figures? It was lower than EPA numbers when it was brand new, but I wouldn't be surprised if Tennessee USA sold me a car with bad alignment off right from the factory floor.

corvette

Isn’t the Kia a lease? No way would I do more than the minimum on a lease. 

andres3

corvette said:

Isn’t the Kia a lease? No way would I do more than the minimum on a lease. 

Who defines the minimums though? The car manual or the dealership?

If I was at 30K miles just before lease return I'd agree with you 100%. However, I got 18K miles to go on my lease and the "sub-par fuel economy" issue makes me suspicious on the car. Had I been getting the EPA numbers (or within 15% of them) I'd have told them NO on the fuel system cleaning.

Same with the alignment (though I'd probably still do it, but with a 2nd opinion to verify it was needed, only because I have 18K miles to go; halfway point).

andres3

Also got a call from the Kia dealership to find out if I wanted to save on the money factor and buyout the lease early.

I told them based on the vehicle's current value being about the residual value (or even less than), I would most likely not buyout the vehicle, and look at the remainder of my lease as "free miles."

kyfdx

Service advisors work on commission. I certainly wouldn't rely on them to tell you the service requirements for your vehicle (ironic, huh?).

Seems like they saw you coming...

mlevine

I had a service advisor who I thought was a nice guy until my 2nd service. He told me my belts may need to be changed as there were cracks in them, needed transmission service as fluid was changing colors, and some other stuff. I said if there is a problem fix it. He said let me find out what it is going to cost. Once I heard that, I said if there is a problem it should be covered under warranty/ service plan. Called infiniti customer service as asked them are you using parts from the dollar store in your car. They wanted to make me an appointment at another dealership. Hence advisor needed to make a little extra that month.

andres3

kyfdx said:

Service advisors work on commission. I certainly wouldn't rely on them to tell you the service requirements for your vehicle (ironic, huh?).

Seems like they saw you coming...

Ha, well they didn't know my fuel economy issue until after I accepted the service recommendations. Either way, the trick only worked because the car is performing below expectations.

Had the car been performing correctly, they would have seen the wrong guy coming!

andres3

kyfdx said:

Service advisors work on commission. I certainly wouldn't rely on them to tell you the service requirements for your vehicle (ironic, huh?).

Seems like they saw you coming...

Also, how come the Audi dealers are not as aggressive with the "sham" extra services? Could it be because they have the pre-paid maintenance plans? Even so, fuel system cleanings are not included, and it wasn't recommended to me on my A3 until the 45K service interval I believe.

That's why I like my independents. Giving an Audi only what it really needs seems to be a lot cheaper than following "service writer" recommendations.

I think false recomendations hurt the brand in the long run, because I take the innocent until guilty approach to the recommendations, therefore:

It's Kia's fault for recommending cheap gas in a turbo motor.
It's Kia's fault for building a dirty running motor.
It's Kia's fault for making such a maintenance heavy vehicle.
It's Kia's fault for building something so loose and weak it needs an alignment at 18,000 miles.

Honda's and Audi's haven't needed this (although Honda did try and recommend fuel cleaning at 30K; which I said no to unless the tech recommends it upon visual inspection). They never came back with the recommendation.

roadburner

kyfdx said:

Service advisors work on commission. I certainly wouldn't rely on them to tell you the service requirements for your vehicle (ironic, huh?).

Seems like they saw you coming...

My service advisor -a BMW CCA member and track geek- has never pushed any unnecessary work.

For example, when the "4X4 Fault" light illuminated on our olds X3 my advisor told me, "The system only stored one isolated fault- the steering angle sensor. I would not suggest replacing it- it's most likely just an isolated glitch." No charge for that diagnosis, either. And when my Club Sport was in for an Oil Service he told me, "The power steering return hose is slightly damp, but I wouldn't replace it until it starts to drip, and that probably won't happen for another 40,000-50,000 miles."

stickguy

I have basically the same 1.6t motor. The manual specifies a bottle of their fuel system cleaner with an oil change (maybe every 6k? Something like that, but fairly frequent), but only if you don’t use top tier gas. I make sure I always do, so I won’t be paying extra for that cleaner.

Only other difference vs. the base non-turbo engine is shorter recommended intervals (6 mos or 6k normal I think, 3/3 severe). I am fine with the 6 months, which for me now is still just 3k or so.

andres3

stickguy said:

I have basically the same 1.6t motor. The manual specifies a bottle of their fuel system cleaner with an oil change (maybe every 6k? Something like that, but fairly frequent), but only if you don’t use top tier gas. I make sure I always do, so I won’t be paying extra for that cleaner.

Only other difference vs. the base non-turbo engine is shorter recommended intervals (6 mos or 6k normal I think, 3/3 severe). I am fine with the 6 months, which for me now is still just 3k or so.

But there is top tier 87 and top tier 91. I've seen both Shell and Chevron claim the premium Octane has more cleaning agents than their own regular 87 Octane fuel.

If your getting the power and gas mileage you expected, there's no reason to do the service.

Sandman6472

The RAV4 is getting better mpg's than my Tucson did but I do see the "eco" light on like 90% of the time while I drive. I like the Toyota 2.5L engine and drives just as nice as the Camry does. Am enjoying just sliding in and out of the front seat as it seems to be more back friendly for me. But to be honest, when I sit on my cushion in the Golf, am also able to slide in and out very easily and never feel like I've fallen into the front seat. And much easier to get out also. Have cloth interior but it ain't that bad to be honest. Would prefer the perforated leather that I've got now but the black/white checkered cloth looks good and feels like it could last 100 years.
It's a very competent vehicle which probably explains why I see so many on the roads down here. Have to assume it's also competitively priced as I think it competes against the Hyundai Tucson, Kia Sportage and the Honda CR-V among others. This seems to be a hot market still though have read that the smaller sub-compact CUV's are also red hot right now. Was reading an article about them earlier today and it said at the end that the Golf had better mpg's and just as much cargo space, if not more. Continue to read good things about the Golf from different places and I do agree with most of what they've said.

The Sandman

corvette

Short road trip in the Mustang last weekend--Cincinnati and back. I realized I had been tensing up my left leg when I was getting used to driving it, hence the knee pain I was having afterwards. I made a conscious effort not to do that, and didn't have any issues, but I still felt like my lower extremities would be sore if I had driven it all day.

I'm going to play with the seat position, but I'm all but certain that I won't be driving it to Omaha in May. That leaves a couple of options:
1. Continue using it as a short trip vehicle and/or maybe start doing HPDEs and use it as a track rat; or
2. Trade it for something with similar performance that is more comfortable. By "more comfortable," I'm thinking it would have to sit higher off the ground and have more of a sedanlike seating position.

I'm thinking of the first option at this point, since that's the default option (basically doing nothing). I never intended to put very many miles on the Mustang anyway.

kyfdx

My 2-series loaner with the sport seats was an almost perfect seating position... I was immediately comfortable. Not something I get in every BMW.

But, when I picked up my car, I remembered why I liked mine so much. It felt almost as good as that new 2-Series. Minus 100 HP and 115K miles.

We drove my wife's X3 to Nashville, a week ago.. Just over four hours, each way. It was pretty comfortable, but not like mine. I am no fan of her 19" wheel option. Tends to wander and tramline more, even though the tires are all-seasons, and relatively tall, compared to a sedan. I'd swap even up for a set of stock 18" wheels, in a minute.

tifighter

I guess I never thought of the Mustang as being that low to the ground. Is it the height, or the seat itself?

stickguy

My favorite of the various cars in the family or that I have regular exposure to is my son's A3 with the sport package seats. Those are seriously comfortable, and a great position.

ronsteve

andres3 said:

I have basically the same 1.6t motor. The manual specifies a bottle of their fuel system cleaner with an oil change (maybe every 6k? Something like that, but fairly frequent), but only if you don’t use top tier gas. I make sure I always do, so I won’t be paying extra for that cleaner. Only other difference vs. the base non-turbo engine is shorter recommended intervals (6 mos or 6k normal I think, 3/3 severe). I am fine with the 6 months, which for me now is still just 3k or so.

But there is top tier 87 and top tier 91. I've seen both Shell and Chevron claim the premium Octane has more cleaning agents than their own regular 87 Octane fuel. If your getting the power and gas mileage you expected, there's no reason to do the service.

Shell has the V-Power branding on their premium but the Nitrogen Enriched applies to all grades. The Techron secret sauce is in all grades of Chevron and Texaco, neither of which exist here in Marathon monopoly land. 

If they claim to meet Top Tier, all grades have to meet Top Tier. I didn't mind the premium when I got the Volvo 11 years ago, and the price difference was 20 cents a gallon. But now with a 60 cent spread, my checklist for my next ride will include the Elwood Blues "runs good on regular gas." 

andres3

corvette said:

Short road trip in the Mustang last weekend--Cincinnati and back. I realized I had been tensing up my left leg when I was getting used to driving it, hence the knee pain I was having afterwards. I made a conscious effort not to do that, and didn't have any issues, but I still felt like my lower extremities would be sore if I had driven it all day.

I'm going to play with the seat position, but I'm all but certain that I won't be driving it to Omaha in May. That leaves a couple of options:
1. Continue using it as a short trip vehicle and/or maybe start doing HPDEs and use it as a track rat; or
2. Trade it for something with similar performance that is more comfortable. By "more comfortable," I'm thinking it would have to sit higher off the ground and have more of a sedanlike seating position.

I'm thinking of the first option at this point, since that's the default option (basically doing nothing). I never intended to put very many miles on the Mustang anyway.

So I test drove the Stinger today. RWD at $40K rather than AWD at $50K (still has the 3.3 V6 but lacks moonroof and upgraded HK stereo). I like turbocharged V6's, forgot how effortless middle-high acceleration is in them. Transmission seemed to work well, and the handling was superior to the Optima. Even a souped up I4 is still buzzy and loud in comparison (different frenetic personality). The interior was more like $30K level though. The car looks OK at $40K on the exterior. The rear view through the mirror is a slit with the big rear view mirror but tiny rear window view. Not much visibility; to the point it bothered me. The roof could be higher; I drove in the moonroof-less version, but it seemed to only maybe be 1/4" higher than the moonroof version; usually the difference is an inch or more; not as noticeable in the Stinger, making it a little lower than I'd like. They sell a yellow version

I prefer the "Stinger" rear badge, but in order to get that you have to get the blackout package

Very Good Michelin tires. Great Brembo brakes.

The interior was a bit of a let down though. There are nice parts, but somehow they let a few Optima-like bits and pieces make their way into the mix, and they don't mix well (for example, the center armrest cover material).

The gray and dark red (almost purple/maroon) interiors were OK. I'd prefer more like magma red.

At 50K I think you'd be insane not to just get a stripped S4 negotiated and grinded down hard.....

stickguy

not everybody wants to spend that much money and get a stripped car.

andres3

stickguy said:

not everybody wants to spend that much money and get a stripped car.

well, I think even stripped an Audi S4 would have all the basics down, you might miss:

- Safety Nannies and Wizards and Gizmos
- Upgraded Audio
- Settle for Alcantara rather than Napa Leather
- Nav
- hot spot internet stuff
- whatever bells and whistles they've thought of since 2016
- The sport diff might be extra..... Anyone that likes AWD should get the sport diff!
- upgraded wheels and tires (huger)

iluvmysephia1

2017 Nissan Sentra




Hey, sandman, what's your impression of the Nissan Sentra? I have read some online comments about the car that state that it's overall impression is underwhelming and that the car isn't getting the 35 mpg top-end mileage that Nissan says it's supposed to get.

The same guy said that he tried to push the car a bit and it didn't respond at all, and in fact, it almost caused him to lose control and go out of his lane.

OK, then another guy's comment is like total night and day difference - he got the 35mpg top-end ghastly mileage and found the interior materials superior to the Toyota Corolla and the dash layout better and the seats better. I came out of a furniture store to scope out possibilities for our new abode the other day and saw a silver Nissan Sentra sitting right by the door and got a glimpse of what Nissan's design team was going for...sometimes it takes weeks for it to get across to me as I look at the car I am starting to like and see it in real action on the streets. It can be an appealing thing.

Our '11 Kia Soul is at 98,544 miles and we still owe on it, nothing's changed as far as that goes, except we owe a bit less and our Soul has a few thou more miles on it. I just love the hunt, though!

andres3

Oh, I also noticed another thing about the Stinger, they don't trust the US factory to make them, they are all from Korea, assembly, engine, and transmission all out of Korea.

Perhaps the alignment will last longer than 15K miles

qbrozen

andres3 said:

not everybody wants to spend that much money and get a stripped car.

well, I think even stripped an Audi S4 would have all the basics down, you might miss: - Safety Nannies and Wizards and Gizmos - Upgraded Audio - Settle for Alcantara rather than Napa Leather - Nav - hot spot internet stuff - whatever bells and whistles they've thought of since 2016 - The sport diff might be extra..... Anyone that likes AWD should get the sport diff! - upgraded wheels and tires (huger)

And not everyone finds an S4 useful enough. The Stinger is a midsized hatchback

corvette

tifighter said:

I guess I never thought of the Mustang as being that low to the ground. Is it the height, or the seat itself?

Compared to a Tahoe, yes, lol. Compared to a Miata, no. I already have the driver’s seat cranked up pretty high, though. The left foot rest position is kind of awkward for me. 

S3/S4/Stinger: Yeah, my budget for a second car isn’t that high. The Tahoe is easily in the last half of its lifespan—I knew that when I got it, but still have to account for its eventual replacement as a daily driver, preferably with something similarly large and comfortable. 

Michaell

Hey folks - quick update on the Sonata. Been going through all moms paperwork and found s receipt from the dealer dated 2 years ago. Brake and transmission fluid service done at that time. 

Tomorrow it goes in for a new serpentine belt and tire rotation.  

ab348

My 2 cars prior to the current one were a 2011 Regal Turbo and a 2014 Cadillac ATS 2.0 Turbo, both of which called for premium. I didn't mind paying the upcharge and because I am a loyal Shell customer I believed I was getting a top quality fuel with a very good additive package using V-Power to keep the fuel system clean. Now with my '17 ATS I have the 3.6 NA engine that is happy to run on regular. I am always torn when I go to refuel as to what to get. I have been buying Shell mid-grade hoping that it has enough cleaning additives to keep the fuel system in good shape, but if I were to learn that their regular had the same amount of those additives in it I would be happy to save a little money.

nyccarguy

qbrozen said:

andres3 said:

stickguy said:

not everybody wants to spend that much money and get a stripped car.

well, I think even stripped an Audi S4 would have all the basics down, you might miss:

- Safety Nannies and Wizards and Gizmos
- Upgraded Audio
- Settle for Alcantara rather than Napa Leather
- Nav
- hot spot internet stuff
- whatever bells and whistles they've thought of since 2016
- The sport diff might be extra..... Anyone that likes AWD should get the sport diff!
- upgraded wheels and tires (huger)

And not everyone finds an S4 useful enough. The Stinger is a midsized hatchback

SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Don't say the "H" word! Use Sport Back, 5 Door, Liftback, or SBUCSC (Segment Busting Utility Crossover Sport Coupe), but DO NOT use the H word (unless you are Honda of course )

stickguy

5 door hatches are still my favorite. I loved my 91 626 5 door. Should have kept that a lot longer. Just hated the rat belts. Loved the seats though.

nyccarguy

I know @breld is contemplating buying a Q7 at some point. If he goes for the Volvo now, he'll have the Q7 by Labor Day. Was talking to one of the other Dads I'm friendly with from hockey. He's really into cars and m,akes me look like an amateur. He was telling me about a friend of his asking for advice on what to replace a leased Q7 with. The guy (his friend) owns an S4 and leases the SUV for his wife. The S4 just recently needed some work (Thermostat and something else that would have been $2,300 at the dealer) and the MMI controller on the wife's Q7 stopped working (it is leased and well under warranty). The dealer won't replace it. They say he MUST have spilled something on it. My friend says the Q7 is showroom clean. This is the kind of thing you keep hearing second hand about Audi dealers.

fintail

Sentra - these are made for fleets now, right? I think I see more rentals than privately plated cars. Corolla might not be too far behind.

Premium gas - if you drive premium brand German cars, you are used to it. The car will run on watered down RUG, but when the documents say "required" and not "recommended", you reap what you sow. It never fails to amuse me when someone lays down 60K for a car and complains about premium. Reminds me of those in bloated SUVs and big trucks during the late Bush era gasoline spikes complaining about running costs.

Hatchback to A5 is like calling a pseudo-butch CUV a lifted wagon or minivan without sliding doors - the ego of the buying demographic won't stand for it.

stickguy

If I spent that kind of money for a premium brand, and they tried that crap on me, I would go nuts in the showroom. At least at VW been treated great, and they did not quibble about anything that needed attention.

Michaell

fintail said:

Sentra - these are made for fleets now, right? I think I see more rentals than privately plated cars. Corolla might not be too far behind.

Funny you mention that.

My ex has been renting cars to get to China Lake for work. This week she's going there, then to San Diego for recruiting. Her "mid size" this week was a Sentra.

roadburner

The 93 vs. 87 discussion has always been a total non-issue for me. I don't care what grade of fuel the car requires- I buy what I like and if the manual calls for 91/93 that is what use, Top Tier only of course.
Right now the only vehicle I have that runs on 87 is the Wrangler; the Club Sport originally dedent require 91/93, but the Turner/Conforti Chip I installed does require it.
Oh well, pay to play methinks...

breld

I think the Stinger will really shine in two scenarios: 1) when compared as a more unique, sporty alternative to something like an Accord (@qbrozen pointed that out a while back), and 2) when you can buy a 1-2 year old one after typical Kia depreciation.

breld

nyccarguy said:

I know @breld is contemplating buying a Q7 at some point. If he goes for the Volvo now, he'll have the Q7 by Labor Day. Was talking to one of the other Dads I'm friendly with from hockey. He's really into cars and m,akes me look like an amateur. He was telling me about a friend of his asking for advice on what to replace a leased Q7 with. The guy (his friend) owns an S4 and leases the SUV for his wife. The S4 just recently needed some work (Thermostat and something else that would have been $2,300 at the dealer) and the MMI controller on the wife's Q7 stopped working (it is leased and well under warranty). The dealer won't replace it. They say he MUST have spilled something on it. My friend says the Q7 is showroom clean. This is the kind of thing you keep hearing second hand about Audi dealers.

You think? I have the Q7 in last place right now - you can't argue with the driving dynamics and comfort which, admittedly, are perhaps the most important factors. But I just can't find myself excited about the styling. The Volvo is much more interesting and elegant in its execution exterior and interior-wise, and it's no slouch in the performance department. I tested one out yesterday, and I continue to be surprised at its responsiveness and quickness - it is genuinely fun to drive. I may consider the air suspension option to soften the bumps out a little, and add the Polestar Optimization chip 'cause, why not?

And I'm still drawn to the Disco - the seating position, taking into account the placement and comfort of armrests, is the most comfortable for me out of the three, and the seats themselves, while trailing the outright comfort of the Volvo seats, are still great. And I'd probably go for the diesel option with the Land Rover, which has its own appeal.

tifighter

breld said:

and add the Polestar Optimization chip 'cause, why not?

@breld
Join the Blue Square Club. We have cookies.

iluvmysephia1

I like the Nissan Sentra's bodystyle but the one I think I'll wait for is another of my beloved Kia's - the 2019 Kia Forte. You may have seen a picture of one already - I'll post one later today on Edmunds. It looks like a smaller Stinger but, unlike the Stinger, one can get a 2019 Forte in a manual transmission.

breld

tifighter said:

breld said:

and add the Polestar Optimization chip 'cause, why not?

@breld
Join the Blue Square Club. We have cookies.

I just might.

Since I have Volvo on the mind, I've taken notice of some XC70's recently and thought of you. They continue to be very handsome vehicles.

Mr_Shiftright

andres3 said:

Oh, I also noticed another thing about the Stinger, they don't trust the US factory to make them, they are all from Korea, assembly, engine, and transmission all out of Korea.

Perhaps the alignment will last longer than 15K miles

Alignment could be gone in a day. Depends what you hit these days.

Odd that I didn't see the word "Kia" anywhere on the exterior of the Stinger. Did they forget or is that on purpose? --or did I miss it?

stickguy

Genesis didn't say Hyundai either.

Around here, if you drive a half hour and only mess up your alignment, and don't blow a tire or bend a wheel, you had a good trip. The roads are a total mess. I drive the Sport, with the skinny little sidewalls, like a drunk granny. Really slow, and rarely in a straight line. A Ram PU is starting to seem like a better idea. Maybe a new Wrangler.

tifighter

breld said:

tifighter said:

breld said:

and add the Polestar Optimization chip 'cause, why not?

@breld
Join the Blue Square Club. We have cookies.

I just might.

Since I have Volvo on the mind, I've taken notice of some XC70's recently and thought of you. They continue to be very handsome vehicles.

Ha. The new slightly bigger AT tire and wheelset get installed on Friday. We'll see if it is still handsome or not after that.

xwesx

nyccarguy said:

I know @breld is contemplating buying a Q7 at some point. If he goes for the Volvo now, he'll have the Q7 by Labor Day. Was talking to one of the other Dads I'm friendly with from hockey. He's really into cars and m,akes me look like an amateur. He was telling me about a friend of his asking for advice on what to replace a leased Q7 with. The guy (his friend) owns an S4 and leases the SUV for his wife. The S4 just recently needed some work (Thermostat and something else that would have been $2,300 at the dealer) and the MMI controller on the wife's Q7 stopped working (it is leased and well under warranty). The dealer won't replace it. They say he MUST have spilled something on it. My friend says the Q7 is showroom clean. This is the kind of thing you keep hearing second hand about Audi dealers.

That surprises me. Last year, when mine was under the retro B-to-B for the settlement, I had stuff replaced on that which were clearly occupant-damaged items, such as the center console latch. The dealer replaced everything I asked, and did so cheerfully. Maybe they knew that they were going to hit me for $1,500 in "you must do this before we can apply the emissions modification" stuff when I brought it back to them in January!

iluvmysephia1

stick - there's a guy living at the apartment that has a grey late model Ram PU. Looks cool. Another guy has a bright red large Chevy PU - I don't know what kind it is, but it looks very cool, too. Would be nice ta sit way up high, eh, and be able to carry things in it, too.

Sandman6472

The Sentra is o k, personally, the CVT zaps all the fun out of it. They do have a special edition that has alloy wheels and a sunroof which looks pretty nice. Not sure I'd go down that road again, had a 2003 that was sold right before the warranty was up. END OF STORY!!

The Sandman

Sandman6472

Stopped by the collision shop early this a m. My guy showed me the email he just got from the adjuster. Seems like she's 3/4 sure it's gonna be totaled!! Not sure how I feel to be honest. Not sure at all as I did tear up on the way home. I think the emotions of the past two weeks finally hit me when I read her email because to be perfectly honest, I LOVE MY GOLF!!!
I do not want a newer vehicle right now, the timing is just off! One good thing is that at least I got about 15 months with the new run flats which I really like. Would I buy again? Possibly.
Stopped by the Buick store and drove an Encore. Very nice but it was a base model and I think I want all the safety nannies now as the accident scarred me a bit. Saw the G M before I left and he said, don't know if he was bull [non-permissible content removed] me, but with the end of their fiscal year in March, I could possibly save a good few thousand on it. Just for kicks, I said, "on this unit that $25K and change, you're saying I could get it for around $21K and change before taxes"? He said yep! Now, personally, think he was bull [non-permissible content removed] me. I left but really liked the Encore. Wife thinks it's too tall and just like my Tucson but she's uneducated on this so I figured not get into a discussion quite yet. But, I'm getting what I want, if it comes to that!
Next went to Hyundai with my $40 Amazon gift card app I got from Hyundai in my email the other day. A lady drove up in a new white Kona, the one I like, and we started to talk. She loves it, loves her sales guy and gave me a slip with his name on it. We talked for a minute or two and said I'd be back for a test drive on the Kona and Elantra GT. They also have a Elantra "Special Edition" which comes with a lot of stuff for around $21K, something I could actually do!

The Sandman