Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

benjaminh

sda said:

..... It was a Honda certified used vehicle. They provided a binder of all the work that had been done to it, brakes, battery, wiper blades, oil change, alignment, etc. A clean car fax. Extended Honda warranty. When I got it home, had the wife drive it, (she knew the color and description but didn't want to spend hours at the dealer...smart girl) she was delighted! Just what she wanted and loved how it drove. Later that evening I opened the glove box to find some documents that were left behind. What did I find? An invoice for $5500 of repairs to the right front. New front fender, grille, radiator, condenser, on and on. I was livid. Took it back the next day with the intent of unwinding the deal or for them to guarantee they would take care of any future issues that may have been caused by the damage and for them to discount the purchase price. They assured me they wouldn't sell something that had frame damage, would take care of any issues (in writing) and further discounted the purchase price by $2k or so. Though I know it has been damaged, they did a good job with the repair, and no issues. Purchased with 50k, now 122k. It still gets under my skin if I give it any thought.

Yikes. Thanks for sharing that story. Perhaps a reason to buy or lease new? But your Pilot seems to have worked out fine for you....

benjaminh

stickguy said:

....
I ran numbers, and it will probably be about $2K less total overall to just buy it now.....

Just stating the obvious, but this really does seem to vary. My 2018 Acura TLX Tech was definitely less to lease on the path to buying than just to buy. In fact, for that model with the incentives that were then in place for leasing just buying the car would probably have cost thousands more....

suydam

sda said:

28firefighter said:

@Mr_Shiftright do you still have access to CarFax? I was messing around with Vroom and Carvana and the X1 is apparently showing up as having been in an accident according to AutoCheck. The Carfax was clean when we leased it as a demo and it has not been in any accidents since our ownership.

EDIT: Disregard - just went through our paperwork and apparently they put in the packet that it was in an front-end impact and was towed in October 2016. It is only reported in Autocheck, not Carfax, and in their final disclosures they did not include a mention of an accident in the Pre-Owned Vehicle Disclosure form. They said no Damage.

I don't think I have any recourse at this point, but I'm definitely a little miffed.

I can so relate to your disappointment. I shared this story sometime ago, but we experienced much the same when I bought the Pilot almost 5 years ago. I admit I let my guard down. It was a Honda certified used vehicle. They provided a binder of all the work that had been done to it, brakes, battery, wiper blades, oil change, alignment, etc. A clean car fax. Extended Honda warranty. When I got it home, had the wife drive it, (she knew the color and description but didn't want to spend hours at the dealer...smart girl) she was delighted! Just what she wanted and loved how it drove. Later that evening I opened the glove box to find some documents that were left behind. What did I find? An invoice for $5500 of repairs to the right front. New front fender, grille, radiator, condenser, on and on. I was livid. Took it back the next day with the intent of unwinding the deal or for them to guarantee they would take care of any future issues that may have been caused by the damage and for them to discount the purchase price. They assured me they wouldn't sell something that had frame damage, would take care of any issues (in writing) and further discounted the purchase price by $2k or so. Though I know it has been damaged, they did a good job with the repair, and no issues. Purchased with 50k, now 122k. It still gets under my skin if I give it any thought.

Exactly how I felt about the Subaru I bought. It wasn’t the car so much as feeling like I got played. Still irritates me to this day.

28firefighter

Even if I had known, I don’t know that I would’ve walked away. At the time (and to some extent still) the deal was really good for a glorified rental car. 

But I feel like I was played. 

roadburner

benjaminh said:

Yikes. Thanks for sharing that story. Perhaps a reason to buy or lease new? But your Pilot seems to have worked out fine for you....

A CPO car is only as good as the dealer who certifies it; I've bought four CPO cars and have been very pleased with all of them- although I never used the CPO warranty on one of them- even though I ran it up to 100k miles. I probably won't need it on my 2er either.

breld

benjaminh said:

.... I ran numbers, and it will probably be about $2K less total overall to just buy it now.....

Just stating the obvious, but this really does seem to vary. My 2018 Acura TLX Tech was definitely less to lease on the path to buying than just to buy. In fact, for that model with the incentives that were then in place just buying the car would probably have cost thousands more....

It really just comes down to the extent incentives vary for lease vs purchase, if any.  A few years back when I wanted a Passat, there was something like $2k of incentives on a lease that were unavailable on a finance.  So I leased it then bought it out.  

Right now, the incentives on the Jetta favor
a purchase, but I’m counting on some significant leasing incentives later in the year when they push their sign then drive event.  Of course, I bet they lower the residual with greater incentives, so maybe it’ll be the same deal.  

It’s just timing.  An inflated residual sounds like a “bad deal” at the end, but it also means you paid less up front.  

Ultimately, like @stickguy’s deal, we plan on buying the car, so I just want the lowest cap cost or sale price.  

stickguy

what he said. lots of ways in a lease to get to the same payment.

Michaell

Someone just posted a $235/mo lease, with first payment due at signing, on a $27K Passat SE.

Seems like a lot of car for the money.

benjaminh

Michaell said:

Someone just posted a $235/mo lease, with first payment due at signing, on a $27K Passat SE.

Seems like a lot of car for the money.

That seems like a great deal, although in a recent test Motor Trend was pretty mixed on the 2018 Passat....

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/volkswagen/passat/2018/2018-volkswagen-passat-first-test-review/

sda

The Passat is showing its age. Still a good car though I'm not sure the new 2.0 is as good as the 1.8 that it replaced. Mpg is better, performance, not convinced. Local dealers are showing new Passats being discounted $7k or more, which puts them in Jetta range, or sometimes cheaper. Toss up, do you want the bigger Passat with older tech/structure or the most recent platform and tech, but smaller (and supposedly cheaper) Jetta?

stickguy

I had one as a loaner last year. It was nice enough. Not exciting in a way that would make me want to buy one. But, if you need a roomy, economical car that does not look like it was designed by Japanese cartoon artists, it is well equipped and a great value.

I don't think my wife would like it. she has never been a fan of our VWs. But for that price, hard to go wrong. Thankfully I have no incentive to lease another VW since the kid's Jetta purchase will cancel out the $350 disposition fee from the last one.

nyccarguy

Last night on my way home, I was passed by a new Accord LX who was traveling at a remarkably high rate of speed. I was doing 70 and he passed me like I was standing still. I'm sure the new Turbo engines in the Civic & Accord are a blast to drive with the 6 speed stick. I love the fact that you get an LSD with the Civic.

ab348

benjaminh said:

Yikes. Thanks for sharing that story. Perhaps a reason to buy or lease new? But your Pilot seems to have worked out fine for you....

That may not even be a guarantee. Back in the mid-80s I saw an ad in the paper for a brand new Chrysler LeBaron coupe (the K-car Jon Voight style one though not a convertible) at a great price so I paid a visit to the dealer to check it out. I took a test drive and partway through I stopped to give it a good look-over. I noticed the passenger side was missing the pinstripe found on the driver side of the body, then noticed some obvious overspray. Clearly it had been damaged and repaired poorly somewhere between the factory and the time I was in it. Went back to the dealer and mentioned it to the salesman who feigned ignorance. Needless to say I walked.

Maybe things are different now and require disclosure of such on a new car, I dunno.

stickguy

I do know the disclosure rules have a dollar limit. Not sure what it is though below it, they don't have to mention. Makes some sense, because it seems pretty common to need minor repairs before selling.

I remember seeing out Odyssey unprepped before we bought it. And there was a dent (maybe a big scratch? But something) in the front passenger door. By the time we picked it up, could never tell it was there and forgot all about it.

omarman

(the K-car Jon Voight style one though not a convertible)
I think the convertible was John Voight style.

sda

ab348 said:

benjaminh said:

Yikes. Thanks for sharing that story. Perhaps a reason to buy or lease new? But your Pilot seems to have worked out fine for you....

That may not even be a guarantee. Back in the mid-80s I saw an ad in the paper for a brand new Chrysler LeBaron coupe (the K-car Jon Voight style one though not a convertible) at a great price so I paid a visit to the dealer to check it out. I took a test drive and partway through I stopped to give it a good look-over. I noticed the passenger side was missing the pinstripe found on the driver side of the body, then noticed some obvious overspray. Clearly it had been damaged and repaired poorly somewhere between the factory and the time I was in it. Went back to the dealer and mentioned it to the salesman who feigned ignorance. Needless to say I walked.

Maybe things are different now and require disclosure of such on a new car, I dunno.

Good point on the disclosure. Even though the Car Fax was clean, the previous owner should have disclosed that the damage was greater than $2500. Maybe they did, but the dealer did not disclose to me, the new owner. I have purchased several Hondas and my parent's too, from this large local Honda dealer which has a good reputation.

stickguy

Scheduled to pick up the daughters new car Tuesday night. Just couldn’t make tomorrow work logistically. So my car will spend a few more days commuting and living in DE.

she did get insurance that did not break the bank. $105/month on a brand new car seems reasonable for a 22YO.

28firefighter

Very much so in terms of insurance. It only gets better from here assuming she doesn't have any incidents or tickets.

andres3

laurasdada said:

This will again broadcast my CCB inadequacies, no new cars since New Year's Eve 2013... But, depending upon situation with boat anchor '02 RX300...


When do you expect to get your next vehicle?
6-12 months
12-24 months


What are you looking at?
Something fun, luxurious, fast, stylish and unique. Perhaps I'll consult with Homer Simpson, have him design me something.

But, on the current "new" car list would be
Audi A/S5 Coupe (unique factor!)
BMW M240
Alfa Guilia Ti
Jag XE
If I feel I must C/SUV:
Jag F-Type and E-Type
Porsche Macan (ok, maybe move this one to the used column...)
Alfa Stelvio

And, as I don't always dip my pen in the ink of reality; Used:
Lexus LC
MB S Class Coupe
BWM i8 (first, body contortion lessons, or Tom Brady Pliability Institute)
Porsche 911 Targa, Rube Goldberg Edition
Jag F-Type

This will no doubt change as any way the wind blows...

If your looking at something as small as the M240 you should also look at the Audi TTS or TTRS. The S5 while unique and nice, just isn't as sporty as a TT/TTS/TTRS.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

Indeed. Even with $5K down on a $30K car, for 60 months we'd be looking at $449/month.

I just wanted to pay cash for something, so that's why I want to stay in the low $20Ks. Buy it and forget it.

I gotta have a stickshift. I've tried paddles, DSG, the whole enchilada--it doesn't work for me.

Maybe I just need to resign myself to a disappearing world, and crawl into old age and lose the 3rd pedal.

yes, but at the end of 36 months with a lease you have nothing but bills and return fees, whereas you might have some equity at the end of a 3 years on a 5 year loan unless you buy something that depreciates like a Dodge.

stickguy

just a return fee, and only if you don't lease or buy a same make replacement. I am thankfully avoiding it on both my leases by buying a replacement. So both of mine went back costing me nothing. Helps to keep them in tip top condition.

kyfdx

I'd like to see positive equity at the end of 36 months on a 60 month loan, assuming no downpayment. Seems unlikely for almost any car.

Certainly not enough equity to make up for the increased payments over a lease.

laurasdada

Andres, I'm actually considering the TT/S, too. But, for some reason I keep thinking I need the option of a semi-quasi-usable back seat... Which means any two seater (and I know the TT has a "back seat") would have to be a second car. But, speculation. Financially I think I want/have to keep the XF through '19.

As I've mentioned, there is a very red Alfa Giulia in my condo garage. This morning it was a very white Alfa Giulia, black roof and grey wheels. Sharp. Funny when I went to take a closer look, it was rather dirty, but the white really hides it well! I'm guessing a loaner, the woman that owns it travels much, so it sits in the garage a lot. This is the second loaner she's had in the last few months, I'll have to find out the story.

stickguy

It's an Alfa. What more do you need to know?

28firefighter

My understanding is that 17s had a lot of fit and finish issues, but 2018s are much better.

fintail

Unless you put like 25%+ down, I can't imagine that on most cars, especially prestige brand cars. See what a 3 year old mid-lux sedan sells for now vs new. It's scary, and why so many lease - these are cars to either buy and hold forever, lease, or buy CPO/lease return. To finance and trade every 3-5 years doesn't seem like a good idea..

andres3 said:

yes, but at the end of 36 months with a lease you have nothing but bills and return fees, whereas you might have some equity at the end of a 3 years on a 5 year loan unless you buy something that depreciates like a Dodge.

andres3

28firefighter said:

You're right, it is less of a sting - but, I'm more disappointed than anything that I let them pull a fast one on me. I'm debating sending an email to the GM - but I'm not sure it'll accomplish anything and I don't know what I would be asking for.

It's their job as salesmen to pull fast ones. It's our jobs as responsible consumers to catch them on it. Easy to miss. I just assume any used car has been repaired unless otherwise proven.

stickguy

well, it is just a different way of doing it, but leasing is just financing and trading every 3 years.

pensfan83

andres3 said:

It's their job as salesmen to pull fast ones. It's our jobs as responsible consumers to catch them on it. Easy to miss. I just assume any used car has been repaired unless otherwise proven.

Marking up the money factor or padding the sale price with add ons is pulling a fast one.  Concealing a vehicle or attempting to conceal a vehicle was in an accident, however minor, is impropriety.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

well, it is just a different way of doing it, but leasing is just financing and trading every 3 years.

But with less risk, and sometimes better incentives.

Michaell

stickguy said:

well, it is just a different way of doing it, but leasing is just financing and trading every 3 years.

Yes and no.

With a lease, the residual value is locked in and not subject to market variations. And, the end period is finite - you don't have a choice to trade in or not.

When you finance, you are subject to whatever the market will bear with regards to the trade in value. Trust me, been down this road with the wife's vehicles.

2005 VUE traded in for a 2008 VUE, which was traded in for a 2010 CX-7, which was traded in for the 2015 Outback. Had we leased all of those vehicles, we would have:

1. Had a lower payment
2. Not had negative equity to roll over into the next purchase

Fortunately, the Outback is a keeper, and with only 27,xxx miles on it in 3.5 years, we are likely to be right side up in the very near future (current loan balance is just under $20K).

On a related note, the MINI dealer is starting to get aggressive about wanting my daughter to trade in the Countryman for a new MINI. She only has 21 payments left on her car, and it has something like 37K on the clock. Fortunately, she purchased the extended warranty, so if (when) something catastrophic happens, we should be covered. She has no plans to replace it anytime soon, and is looking forward to the day where she has no car payments.

henryn

There is also the matter of taxes, in particular sales tax, which varies from state to state.

Most states, you pay sales tax on the monthly payment. Let’s take a $30,000 car, leased for 3 years, at $300 a month. If you pay sales tax at 6.25% (my state, Texas), on the monthly payments, at the end of the least you will have paid 6.25% x $300 x 36 == $675.

But here, in Texas, you pay the full sales tax up front on the entire purchase price. $30,000 x 6.25% is $1,875. That’s an additional $1,200, spread over 36 months, equivalent to $33.33 per month extra.

If we’re talking about a $45,000 car, the difference goes up accordingly.

One reason why you don’t see very many people in Texas leasing cars.

qbrozen

henryn said:

There is also the matter of taxes, in particular sales tax, which varies from state to state.

Most states, you pay sales tax on the monthly payment. Let’s take a $30,000 car, leased for 3 years, at $300 a month. If you pay sales tax at 6.25% (my state, Texas), on the monthly payments, at the end of the least you will have paid 6.25% x $300 x 36 == $675.

But here, in Texas, you pay the full sales tax up front on the entire purchase price. $30,000 x 6.25% is $1,875. That’s an additional $1,200, spread over 36 months, equivalent to $33.33 per month extra.

If we’re talking about a $45,000 car, the difference goes up accordingly.

One reason why you don’t see very many people in Texas leasing cars.

Does TX offer tax credit on trade-ins?

pensfan83

My understanding is that in Texas any tax credits come from the dealer via the captive finance arm. They are never a given but if they are available most dealers have no problem passing them along because it doesn't cost them a dime since they come from the finance company.

Michaell

pensfan83 said:

My understanding is that in Texas any tax credits come from the dealer via the captive finance arm. They are never a given but if they are available most dealers have no problem passing them along because it doesn't cost them a dime since they come from the finance company.

We see tax credits mostly on luxury brands in TX
Maryland and Virginia both tax the entire selling price for a lease as well.

qbrozen

clear as mud. Well, if getting a credit on tax paid when trading, that would be a big benefit of buying vs leasing in TX.

thebean

qbrozen said:

clear as mud. Well, if getting a credit on tax paid when trading, that would be a big benefit of buying vs leasing in TX.

Yes, you do get a tax credit when trading in, in Texas when you purchase. You only pay sales tax on the net amount after trade-in. That's why any offer from Carmax, etc on a car you are considering trading in has to be in excess of 6.25% better than the dealers trade-in offer.

pensfan83

I don't understand it either, I originally equated tax credits to trade ins but since reading through posts here and leasehackr learned that dealers in Texas advertise them. Thankfully PA assesses tax only on the monthly so for me it's 6% sales tax+1% county sales tax+3% lease tax=10%.

Then there is living in Chicago where you get hit by the state and for living in the Chicagoland area. It's something like a 15% tax hit, @Michaell or @kyfdx can correct me if I have misspoken.

andres3

benjaminh said:

stickguy said:

....and yes, I know that a new VW may not be the smartest move! though you can't find used 2019s yet. so it will be fine. Getting a big enough discount, plus extra rebates, to make the price work. and going to be vastly cheaper to buy it now than to lease and buy. Plus getting a good interest rate. So, they got under my OTD bottom line....

Congrats!! If you're willing, I think people here would be interested to hear the details on the deal for the 2019 Jetta. With the new 6-year/72k VW warranty it seems like a safe bet for a good economy car.

In the first 17,000 miles of ownership, the VW warranty is worth all of $0.00 to me. We'll see if I'm singing the same tune at the end of the warranty period.

Anecdotal conversation with car club people leads me to believe VW and Mexico car plants just doesn't do nearly the same quality control Audi and Germany/Hungary car plants do.

andres3

pensfan83 said:

andres3 said:

It's their job as salesmen to pull fast ones. It's our jobs as responsible consumers to catch them on it. Easy to miss. I just assume any used car has been repaired unless otherwise proven.

Marking up the money factor or padding the sale price with add ons is pulling a fast one.  Concealing a vehicle or attempting to conceal a vehicle was in an accident, however minor, is impropriety.


I agree, but it seems the information was in his "fine print." Not concealed unless you consider fine print concealment. I do appreciate CA regulations for helping to make standard contract forms put certain things in bold or large letters, or in boxes, like the APR and amount financed/paid in interest over the life of the loan.

Too bad that's not enforced on leases with money factor. You make up new terms and interest charges suddenly are not interest charges

andres3

qbrozen said:

stickguy said:

well, it is just a different way of doing it, but leasing is just financing and trading every 3 years.

But with less risk, and sometimes better incentives.

Why do you think banks don't advertise leases the way they do auto loan rates? Full disclosure and clear amounts?

andres3

sda said:

28firefighter said:

@Mr_Shiftright do you still have access to CarFax? I was messing around with Vroom and Carvana and the X1 is apparently showing up as having been in an accident according to AutoCheck. The Carfax was clean when we leased it as a demo and it has not been in any accidents since our ownership.

EDIT: Disregard - just went through our paperwork and apparently they put in the packet that it was in an front-end impact and was towed in October 2016. It is only reported in Autocheck, not Carfax, and in their final disclosures they did not include a mention of an accident in the Pre-Owned Vehicle Disclosure form. They said no Damage.

I don't think I have any recourse at this point, but I'm definitely a little miffed.

I can so relate to your disappointment. I shared this story sometime ago, but we experienced much the same when I bought the Pilot almost 5 years ago. I admit I let my guard down. It was a Honda certified used vehicle. They provided a binder of all the work that had been done to it, brakes, battery, wiper blades, oil change, alignment, etc. A clean car fax. Extended Honda warranty. When I got it home, had the wife drive it, (she knew the color and description but didn't want to spend hours at the dealer...smart girl) she was delighted! Just what she wanted and loved how it drove. Later that evening I opened the glove box to find some documents that were left behind. What did I find? An invoice for $5500 of repairs to the right front. New front fender, grille, radiator, condenser, on and on. I was livid. Took it back the next day with the intent of unwinding the deal or for them to guarantee they would take care of any future issues that may have been caused by the damage and for them to discount the purchase price. They assured me they wouldn't sell something that had frame damage, would take care of any issues (in writing) and further discounted the purchase price by $2k or so. Though I know it has been damaged, they did a good job with the repair, and no issues. Purchased with 50k, now 122k. It still gets under my skin if I give it any thought.

Getting $2K off would have lifted a lot of irritation off my back. Seems like they did "right" by you, even if they did you wrong to begin with.

pensfan83

Fair point others may disagree with me but burying something like that in the fine print is still an attempt to conceal in my opinion.

andres3

nyccarguy said:

Last night on my way home, I was passed by a new Accord LX who was traveling at a remarkably high rate of speed. I was doing 70 and he passed me like I was standing still. I'm sure the new Turbo engines in the Civic & Accord are a blast to drive with the 6 speed stick. I love the fact that you get an LSD with the Civic.

VTEC must of kicked in YO!

Michaell

pensfan83 said:

Then there is living in Chicago where you get hit by the state and for living in the Chicagoland area. It's something like a 15% tax hit, @Michaell or @kyfdx can correct me if I have misspoken.

Not Chicagoland, just the city itself. Approaching 17% total, I think.

stickguy

Delaware also taxes the sales price on a lease. a big reason that option was off the table (well, a minor reason at least). At least the rate is pretty low at 4.25%.

kyfdx

stickguy said:

Delaware also taxes the sales price on a lease. a big reason that option was off the table (well, a minor reason at least). At least the rate is pretty low at 4.25%.

Full-tax
VA: 4.17%
MD: 6%
NH: 0%

stickguy

Picked up new wheels today! A GMC. Something different.

OK, it is actually a U-haul for the move tomorrow. The flat side 10' version. So basically a Vandura with a much taller, slightly wider, and squared off box in the back. Actually drove pretty nice. fairly new, with just 5,950 miles on it. Now just have to load it, drive to delaware, and unload.

I am seriously too old for this. good thing my son will be home, and the daughter's BF used to play football, so have some extra muscle. Good for the driving though. Hopefully no traffic so I don't have to fight a mess on 95. that is not fun, having to cross 6 lanes quickly to get to an exit.

Mr_Shiftright

kyfdx said:

I'd like to see positive equity at the end of 36 months on a 60 month loan, assuming no downpayment. Seems unlikely for almost any car.

Certainly not enough equity to make up for the increased payments over a lease.

Well he has a point in that after 60 months you'll have something to sell or trade. But even if you can sell a 2014 Chevy SS for $30K, someone paid $50K for it only 4 short years ago. So $5K a year depreciation, more or less. About the same as lease payments really.

breld

Well, I'll be making a short trip down to Colorado Springs tomorrow morning with my in-laws to complete their purchase of a 2019 Legacy 2.5i Premium, in Abyss Blue.

Should be a nice car for them - safe and reliable.