Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

roadburner

corvette said:

Time to find a new dealer! Most of the vehicles at the giant local Honda dealer have dealer installed accessories, whether that's something so cheap as a spoiler or as expensive as dealer installed leather, heated seats, pinstripes, and all-weather floormats on a Civic LX.

Another thing I won't put up with. Aftermarket accessories can be quite good, but a lot of the non-oem things dealers install are trash.

roadburner

ab348 said:

roadburner said:

Okay, put me down for a punch; the deal worked out even better than I thought. I ended up being charged $315 less for the CPO certification- and the service department performed over $1,100 worth of work to bring it up to CPO spec- and they will also be providing a second key(per CPO requirements). Finally, my salesperson is a friend I helped out a lot when I worked there- he was unhappy with the paint detailing so I'm bringing it back next week to get a full exterior detail at no cost.
My wife loves the car, and I like it a lot as well. We both like the M Sport suspension tuning and sport seats- and the performance is more than adequate.
Not a bad truck for about the same price as a FWD Chevrolet Trax...

I'm confused. Truck? What did you get? Colors? What happened to Mrs. RBs Mini?

A LeMans Bluefirst generation X1. We are keeping the Clubman- it will be my commuter car when I start work in January.

stickguy

nyccarguy said:

@stickguy

You could use your RDX as a down payment. I freakin LOVE the MACAN! Go for it!

well, if they knock it down to $45, offer $16 on the trade, that is still a lot of difference to make up.

I'm thinking more like $25 for a CPO V60, or a little more for an X1, with the trade, and good to go. Or, flip my car for one.

plus first time I had to take the Porsche for service, I might have a stroke when they told me the cost! Still might stop over to take a look...

ab348

nyccarguy said:

@stickguy

You could use your RDX as a down payment. I freakin LOVE the MACAN! Go for it!

It's so much fun to spend other people's money! Are you a politician in your spare time?

tbirdmarco

Love all above

tbirdmarco

Wow Michael. Yes you do bead to find an nother dealer insane what they did to you 

jpp75

@stickguy I love Mrs @breld's Macan, the exhaust note is quite pleasant...just saying

jpp75

As @micahell noted the dealer he visited has been much less than impressive the few times I've been there with he and @breld. I wouldn't put them on my list if I was shopping for a vehicle. Plenty of other options out there without all those games.

Michaell

Calling all members!

Request for advice on a new (used) car in NC.

https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/53352/nissan/x/what-to-buy#latest

Michaell

jpp5862 said:

@stickguy I love Mrs @breld's Macan, the exhaust note is quite pleasant...just saying

Except hers is the "S", while the link @stickguy shared is for the base 4-cyl.

tjc78

jpp5862 said:

@stickguy I love Mrs @breld's Macan, the exhaust note is quite pleasant...just saying

Someone had one at work. It did sound awesome when driving away.

fintail

An X1 is a truck like my Bluetec is a truck - no offense to RB on this though, as he definitely knows how to pic the right spec on the BMW, even the color.

That reminds me several years ago when a friend had a Chevy Captiva as a rental. He'd call it a "truck", to which I would laugh out loud. I don't recall thinking of my rental Grand Cherokee as a truck, but the Armada definitely had that feel.

ab348 said:

I'm confused. Truck? What did you get? Colors? What happened to Mrs. RBs Mini?

Mr_Shiftright

It's like the Volvo XC40, but maybe more fun to drive.

henryn

fintail said:

An X1 is a truck like my Bluetec is a truck - no offense to RB on this though, as he definitely knows how to pic the right spec on the BMW, even the color.

That reminds me several years ago when a friend had a Chevy Captiva as a rental. He'd call it a "truck", to which I would laugh out loud. I don't recall thinking of my rental Grand Cherokee as a truck, but the Armada definitely had that feel.

This is a modern trend which does happen to annoy me, calling any and all SUVs a "truck". It seemed to start with the Tahoe, Suburban, and Expedition, which really were trucks. They were (and are) built on the truck chassis, just with an enclosed bed. Things like a BMW X1 have nothing in common with any truck anywhere anyhow anytime. But ... language evolves, the common usage prevails, and us old fogeys are left to grumble with no one paying attention.

suydam

I’ve never heard the little or medium SUVs referred to as trucks. Kinda amusing actually.

28firefighter

The old gen X1 with M suspension is about as close as you get to the old pre-2012 3 series in driving dynamics and interior quality This is a good thing. 

qbrozen

So this morning was both entertaining and annoying.

BMW dealer first. Wife looks over the X2 and thinks its too small. We go find a salesman, get into one, and figure out it works just fine after we discover the extra storage space under the rear floor. Take it for a spin and we both like it. Very nice. Go back to talk turkey. I let him know up from that I'm looking for an aggressive deal. I tell him we are in for no more than $325/$325 for 36/15. He asks how I got that number, so I tell him "well, for one, that's our budget, but it also happens to be 25% off MSRP minus $3750 lease incentive at the base money factor." Of course, he is baffled by what I just spewed and goes to manager. Came back with over $500/mo. I suggested I'd just get a new one for less than that. Shook hands and left.

Benz dealer next. Found a GLA250 on the showroom floor. Looked it over, wife got in driver's seat, adjusted it as much as she could, and shook her head. Ok, thanks, we're out.

Final stop at the Volvo dealer. Found the S60 that now has 9100 miles on it, drove it, liked it well enough, went back inside. Gave my little talk again, but this time I'm at $275, which is "only" 23% off (net $29k) minus $8k incentives. He seems pretty confident their $26,995 advertised price is all in. I explained about 3 times that he can't know that because purchase and lease incentives are different and the least incentives, to the best of my knowledge, are higher than the purchase incentives. So he finally goes to the numbers dude. They hang out for a while, and he comes back with paper in hand.

The paper has $500/mo on it. Whoa! Wait. How did you get that? He shows me sale price of $29,900. So I said, OK, that's close, then you gotta take the $8k incentives off. He is visibly puzzled. Numbers guy overhears us and comes in to sit down. He pulls up his worksheet on the computer to go over the numbers with me. So we look at the MF first. Yup, that's correct. No argument there. Then he shows residual ... $13.7k. Hmmm... no, something is wrong there. He argues this is after mileage adjustment, but I keep pushing. I asked what the base residual is. After much clicking around, he finds it: 44%. Yup, that's right. So, I explained, that's a $16.6k residual. And, I asked, the mileage adjustment is 20 cents, yes? He agreed. And it has 9k miles, yes? He agreed. So that's $1800 from $16.6k. How did you get $13.7k? Baffled look. Manually enters correction. Next.

Sale price. Alright, so you have $29,900... then take off the $8k incentives. "No, that sale price includes the incentives." Hold up ... the MSRP is $37.7k? Yes. And incentives are $8k? Yes. .....do you see where I'm going with this? No. *palm to forehead* Dude... you're charging me MORE than MSRP for a car with 9k miles and then taking off Volvo's incentives. "OH, well, I gotta pay for floorplan." Ok, I'm not even getting into that, I'll just say it right out, there is no way in hell I'm paying MSRP for a car with 9k miles. That's just crazy talk. Poor salesman is kind of beside himself at this point and not saying a word. In the end, numbers guy says he is "all in" at $26k AFTER incentives. We shook hands and parted ways.

After I got home, I relayed to my 8-yr-old that it is a shame he wasn't there because he would have laughed his [non-permissible content removed] off at the poor math of the dude whose job it is to run the numbers. I even said to my 8-yr-old, "Ok, so what is $37.7k minus $8k?" He says $29.7k. Enough said.

corvette

My dad had a 1984 (I think) CR-X. There was a waiting list at the dealer. Dealer called him one day and said "Honda sent us a red one and a white one, which one do you want?" He took the white one. I'm certain there was no discount. I don't remember it having a lot of accessories on it, though.

corvette

tjc78 said:

Then you answer them by walking out.... just as you did.  This is 2018... not 1988.  I hate those things so much.   Last time I nogotiated with a dealer that had that stuff I wouldn’t do any calculations on the added items.  I kept using the MSRP.  They didn’t like that at all!

Same deal when I bought my Jetta GLI. They were going to do a dealer trade for one that had a spoiler plus the monster floormat package. I said I'm fine paying for the upgraded floormats, since that's something I want, but the spoiler has zero value to me and I in fact prefer cars with no spoiler, so I'm not willing to pay for it. They sent a runner to a dealer further away to get me one without a spoiler.

nyccarguy

qbrozen said:

So this morning was both entertaining and annoying. BMW dealer first. Wife looks over the X2 and thinks its too small. We go find a salesman, get into one, and figure out it works just fine after we discover the extra storage space under the rear floor. Take it for a spin and we both like it. Very nice. Go back to talk turkey. I let him know up from that I'm looking for an aggressive deal. I tell him we are in for no more than $325/$325 for 36/15. He asks how I got that number, so I tell him "well, for one, that's our budget, but it also happens to be 25% off MSRP minus $3750 lease incentive at the base money factor." Of course, he is baffled by what I just spewed and goes to manager. Came back with over $500/mo. I suggested I'd just get a new one for less than that. Shook hands and left. Benz dealer next. Found a GLA250 on the showroom floor. Looked it over, wife got in driver's seat, adjusted it as much as she could, and shook her head. Ok, thanks, we're out. Final stop at the Volvo dealer. Found the S60 that now has 9100 miles on it, drove it, liked it well enough, went back inside. Gave my little talk again, but this time I'm at $275, which is "only" 23% off (net $29k) minus $8k incentives. He seems pretty confident their $26,995 advertised price is all in. I explained about 3 times that he can't know that because purchase and lease incentives are different and the least incentives, to the best of my knowledge, are higher than the purchase incentives. So he finally goes to the numbers dude. They hang out for a while, and he comes back with paper in hand. The paper has $500/mo on it. Whoa! Wait. How did you get that? He shows me sale price of $29,900. So I said, OK, that's close, then you gotta take the $8k incentives off. He is visibly puzzled. Numbers guy overhears us and comes in to sit down. He pulls up his worksheet on the computer to go over the numbers with me. So we look at the MF first. Yup, that's correct. No argument there. Then he shows residual ... $13.7k. Hmmm... no, something is wrong there. He argues this is after mileage adjustment, but I keep pushing. I asked what the base residual is. After much clicking around, he finds it: 44%. Yup, that's right. So, I explained, that's a $16.6k residual. And, I asked, the mileage adjustment is 20 cents, yes? He agreed. And it has 9k miles, yes? He agreed. So that's $1800 from $16.6k. How did you get $13.7k? Baffled look. Manually enters correction. Next. Sale price. Alright, so you have $29,900... then take off the $8k incentives. "No, that sale price includes the incentives." Hold up ... the MSRP is $37.7k? Yes. And incentives are $8k? Yes. .....do you see where I'm going with this? No. *palm to forehead* Dude... you're charging me MORE than MSRP for a car with 9k miles and then taking off Volvo's incentives. "OH, well, I gotta pay for floorplan." Ok, I'm not even getting into that, I'll just say it right out, there is no way in hell I'm paying MSRP for a car with 9k miles. That's just crazy talk. Poor salesman is kind of beside himself at this point and not saying a word. In the end, numbers guy says he is "all in" at $26k AFTER incentives. We shook hands and parted ways. After I got home, I relayed to my 8-yr-old that it is a shame he wasn't there because he would have laughed his [non-permissible content removed] off at the poor math of the dude whose job it is to run the numbers. I even said to my 8-yr-old, "Ok, so what is $37.7k minus $8k?" He says $29.7k. Enough said.

Ugh!  Your wife is a saint.  Mine would have traded ME in after a morning like that!  Keep trying!  You’ll get what you want!

corvette

qbrozen said:

Came back with over $500/mo. I suggested I'd just get a new one for less than that. Shook hands and left.
[...]
Poor salesman is kind of beside himself at this point and not saying a word. In the end, numbers guy says he is "all in" at $26k AFTER incentives. We shook hands and parted ways.

And you know they keep doing that kind of ridiculous crap because most people don't even question it.

28firefighter

You got the test drives in. Now negotiate over email. Dealing with these folks in person for deep discounts is a complete waste of time. 

28firefighter

Also if you like the X2 you could save a ton of time reaching out to one of the brokers. 

Michaell

qbrozen said:

So this morning was both entertaining and annoying.

BMW dealer first. Wife looks over the X2 and thinks its too small. We go find a salesman, get into one, and figure out it works just fine after we discover the extra storage space under the rear floor. Take it for a spin and we both like it. Very nice. Go back to talk turkey. I let him know up from that I'm looking for an aggressive deal. I tell him we are in for no more than $325/$325 for 36/15. He asks how I got that number, so I tell him "well, for one, that's our budget, but it also happens to be 25% off MSRP minus $3750 lease incentive at the base money factor." Of course, he is baffled by what I just spewed and goes to manager. Came back with over $500/mo. I suggested I'd just get a new one for less than that. Shook hands and left.

Benz dealer next. Found a GLA250 on the showroom floor. Looked it over, wife got in driver's seat, adjusted it as much as she could, and shook her head. Ok, thanks, we're out.

Final stop at the Volvo dealer. Found the S60 that now has 9100 miles on it, drove it, liked it well enough, went back inside. Gave my little talk again, but this time I'm at $275, which is "only" 23% off (net $29k) minus $8k incentives. He seems pretty confident their $26,995 advertised price is all in. I explained about 3 times that he can't know that because purchase and lease incentives are different and the least incentives, to the best of my knowledge, are higher than the purchase incentives. So he finally goes to the numbers dude. They hang out for a while, and he comes back with paper in hand.

The paper has $500/mo on it. Whoa! Wait. How did you get that? He shows me sale price of $29,900. So I said, OK, that's close, then you gotta take the $8k incentives off. He is visibly puzzled. Numbers guy overhears us and comes in to sit down. He pulls up his worksheet on the computer to go over the numbers with me. So we look at the MF first. Yup, that's correct. No argument there. Then he shows residual ... $13.7k. Hmmm... no, something is wrong there. He argues this is after mileage adjustment, but I keep pushing. I asked what the base residual is. After much clicking around, he finds it: 44%. Yup, that's right. So, I explained, that's a $16.6k residual. And, I asked, the mileage adjustment is 20 cents, yes? He agreed. And it has 9k miles, yes? He agreed. So that's $1800 from $16.6k. How did you get $13.7k? Baffled look. Manually enters correction. Next.

Sale price. Alright, so you have $29,900... then take off the $8k incentives. "No, that sale price includes the incentives." Hold up ... the MSRP is $37.7k? Yes. And incentives are $8k? Yes. .....do you see where I'm going with this? No. *palm to forehead* Dude... you're charging me MORE than MSRP for a car with 9k miles and then taking off Volvo's incentives. "OH, well, I gotta pay for floorplan." Ok, I'm not even getting into that, I'll just say it right out, there is no way in hell I'm paying MSRP for a car with 9k miles. That's just crazy talk. Poor salesman is kind of beside himself at this point and not saying a word. In the end, numbers guy says he is "all in" at $26k AFTER incentives. We shook hands and parted ways.

After I got home, I relayed to my 8-yr-old that it is a shame he wasn't there because he would have laughed his [non-permissible content removed] off at the poor math of the dude whose job it is to run the numbers. I even said to my 8-yr-old, "Ok, so what is $37.7k minus $8k?" He says $29.7k. Enough said.

Sounds like my experience yesterday, times 3.

Me thinks the cost of money is starting to affect dealers profit margins, since the public has been conditioned to get almost free money on leases.

Keep shopping!

qbrozen

28firefighter said:

Also if you like the X2 you could save a ton of time reaching out to one of the brokers. 

Exactly. That's what I told her. I don't even need her for the rest. I had previously reached out to a couple of dealers so I am talking with them now but also just emailed Quentin for help.

28firefighter

Perfect. He’s a good guy and if he can do it, will tell you. 

pensfan83

Highly annoying but that seems par for the course for in person negotiations. 

suydam

I am thinking I am so lucky that neither of my last two car buys/lease were like that. It may be, as @Michaell says, the higher interest rates are hitting the vehicle market hard. Wonder what will happen in a year when my lease is up?

carnaught

Congrats on the punch Your Honor!

stickguy

that reminds me. I don't really have the enthusiasm to try and haggle down to one of the lease deals that occasionally get reported!

Better just let QB do it and ask the dealer for a 2nd car at the same terms.

Drivingfool

Got the H7 headlights at Peboys, replaced them both as I knew the other one is going to go soon, just my luck lately. Now, we're all done for awhile I hope. My credit card really does need a rest!! I've put it away for the time being as it's red hot right now.

The Sandman/Driving Fool


(P.S. My identity is supposed to be fixed early part of this week as some guy who knows what to do comes back. We shall see how good this guy really is!!

Mr_Shiftright

A CCBA Thanksgiving table?

qbrozen

Internet sales manager in MD had an underling call me. $457/mo. Huh? I asked a couple of questions. Yes, they are marking up the MF. And, yes, they are marking up the acq fee. But, hey, its a whopping 15% discount before incentives. hahahahahaha.

cdnpinhead

The past couple dozen posts are why I prefer to pay cash and keep the thing for ~10 years.

YMMV.

pensfan83

I think as @Michaell pointed out that due to rising interest rates those unicorn deals are not going to be as common or easy to find. Hopefully Quentin can come through for you.

28firefighter

I prefer the thrill of the chase. 

stickguy

I kinda do too. When I don't actually need a car so no hurry.

stickguy

CDN, that is part of why I bought my last car. Only problem, I did not end up buying one that I want to keep for 10 years!

stickguy

I have decided that if I lease, I am not going to obsess about getting the deal of the century. Just want a nice car, at a good price. So maybe a top 20% deal instead of top 2%?

benjaminh

stickguy said:

I have decided that if I lease, I am not going to obsess about getting the deal of the century. Just want a nice car, at a good price. So maybe a top 20% deal instead of top 2%?

Sounds good. Congrats, by the way, on going over 30,000 posts!

roadburner

suydam said:

I’ve never heard the little or medium SUVs referred to as trucks. Kinda amusing actually.

I don't know about anywhere else, but among BMW insiders/outsiders the penchant for calling Munich's SUVs "trucks" started in 1999 when the E53 was first introduced. It was more of a pejorative term actually, and it just kind of stuck. Me, the only real truck I could actually imagine owning is an old Dodge Ram SRT-10.

stickguy

benjaminh said:

stickguy said:

I have decided that if I lease, I am not going to obsess about getting the deal of the century. Just want a nice car, at a good price. So maybe a top 20% deal instead of top 2%?

Sounds good. Congrats, by the way, on going over 30,000 posts!

thanks. Not quite sure if I should be proud, or embarrassed! though that does go back to about 1998 or so.

Mr_Shiftright

4 posts a day for you! Hardly excessive.

qbrozen

I'm not so concerned about the BEST deal, but I do need it to fit our budget.

I wrote back to that sales manager and detailed what I was targeting on his vehicle. I even used his bumped up MF. I gave MSRP, sale price, incentives, adjusted RV, fees, taxes, and payment. His reply? "I made you a very aggressive offer. How did you arrive at that number?" LOL! Ummm...did you read it? I said "I even used your inflated MF in my counter." He just said "we're thousands apart. I can't do that deal." I said no problem, i understand, but if you don't mind, what is your bottom line sale price before incentives TODAY? Crickets. 

I am honestly still curious about the volvo. I am kind of dumbfounded by that whole thing. By my estimation, his "rock bottom" was an easy $2k in the black. 

roadburner

graphicguy said:

RB.......big congrats. We'll need to hear your opinion as you get more seat time.

First impressions...

Pros:
Engine- My first N20; so far so good. It's funny how the acceleration goalposts have been moved; a 0-60 in the low sixes is strictly ho-hum these days, yet the straight line performance of the X1 is equivalent to that of my old E24 M6. It should average 24-25 mpg.
Auto stop/start- Can be permanently disabled.
Transmission- Hard to improve on the ZF 8HP.
Brakes- Powerful, progressive, and easy to modulate.
Steering effort/feel- Just about perfect; accurate and communicative; and I love the M Sport wheel.
Ride/handling balance- M Sport tuning at its best. It could maybe use a bit more roll stiffness.
Interior/seating- Classic BMW, although an oil or water temperature gauge would be welcome.
Cruise Control- The last iteration of the BMW cruise control stalk. I like it much better than wheel mounted controls.

Cons:
No H-K audio- I may have to install a Bavsound amplifier/speaker upgrade.
No BMW Online or ConnectedDrive- The E84 had an older telematics system which used GSM(2G) wireless technology. BMW offered owners the choice of upgrading the combox/telematics to 3G LTE or receiving a cash voucher and deactivation of the the GSM unit. The PO of our X1 took the voucher route.

That's all for now.

corvette

pensfan83 said:

I think as @Michaell pointed out that due to rising interest rates those unicorn deals are not going to be as common or easy to find. Hopefully Quentin can come through for you.

Haven't been there in a while, but Bendito on that board seemed to have a good reputation for being able to find deals.

Drivingfool

A lot of us who've had our accounts "compromised" shall I say, could also be close to that 30K number if all of them are added up. I know I'm on my 2nd named account already and getting help next week getting the original one back.

tjc78

@qbrozen .... days at the dealer like that are why my wife won’t step foot into one with me!

benjaminh

tjc78 said:

@qbrozen .... days at the dealer like that are why my wife won’t step foot into one with me!

Yeah. My wife has me buy all of our cars for that reason.

qbrozen

My wife said, "I'm surprised you haven't been blacklisted. Dealers should see your name come up with a note telling them to just show you the door immediately."