Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

qbrozen

FYI.
i checked out the BMW site and this is the 525i lease mentioned there:
Monthly lease payments of $439.00 for 24 months based on MSRP of $44,470.00 (includes automatic transmission). (Total lease payments including acquisition fee is $10,536.00). For vehicles registered outside of NY, $3,389.00 due at signing includes first month’s payment, down payment and security deposit.

i would assume a stick should be lower (if available).

lemmer

Go to Edmunds new car menu and click on current incentives. They are all there.

Kirstie_H

A reporter from a large national newspaper would like to hear from consumers who are shopping for a vehicle right now and what you're looking for and how you come to a decision on how much to spend. If you have a story to share, please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com with your daytime contact info., city/state of residence, and the make/model(s) that you’re researching no later than December 22, 2005.

corvette

I also scan the 24-month leases. Saab has some good deals considering what they're actually worth after 24 months, but I think they only include 10,000 miles a year. Some of the prices would make it tempting to just make the remaining payments and turn it in in 15/18 months when you hit the mileage limit. Subaru's leases always seem to be a good deal on the base models, but only fair--and nothing more--on the loaded models.

When I had my snow tires put on a few days ago, the indpendent BMW mechanic was saying that the spark plugs on BMWs only last around 80,000 miles compared to the 100k that BMW claims. My only response was that I had a long ways to go, but I thought to myself I'll be lucky to keep a car that long!

stickguy

I don't like there big ad lease rates, since they usually inclde $2,500 down. That means the $439 lease is more lie $540+ with 0 down.

THe Audi deal was nice. IIRC, 24 months, true zero drive out (only tax and tags), and ~$349/mo for a 2.0t, Quattro I think, but pretty well equipped.

kyfdx

Yeah... technically, this might work... If the low money factor is the only incentive on the car... and the residual is realistic...

But... you have that acquistion fee ($625 on a BMW) that you don't have on a purchase... And, depending on your state tax laws, you may end up paying more in sales tax over the long term that way..

It could work for someone that is fiscally responsible, and can stick with the plan... that isn't very many of us.... Plus, when that lease is up, and you can lease another new car for the same amount as the 48 month payment on the car you are buying out of the lease....

Well.. Let's just say that buyers are better off buying upfront, if that is what they really want to do...

regards,
kyfdx

kyfdx

Right now... a 24mo./24K lease on a 525i has a residual of 76% and a money factor of .0016...

For example:
$45,000 MSRP
$42,500 selling price
$43,125 Cap cost
Payment $496/mo.+tax
Due at signing: 1st payment, security deposit, license/title..

I know, $500/mo. isn't cheap... but $42,500 at 5% interest on a 60 month loan is around $800/mo.... And, if you lease, you get the best two years....

regards,
kyfdx

michaellno

Wow, that seems like a really good deal! We were paying $490/mo on a 3 year lease on our '99 Expedition, which had an MSRP of something like $32-33K, so to have the same payemnt on a car worth another 10 grand seems cheap.

In Colorado, you pay for the registration separate .. it doesn't get handled by the dealer, but is a percentage of the value of the car (2.1% in year 1, 1.8% in year 2, etc.).

Which means that you're looking at $1100 initially (first pmt + $625 acquisition fee), then another $800-900 for the tags.

The first time we licensed the Expedition, it cost something like $700! And, since we had also leased a VW New Beetle at about the same time, the check we wrote to the DMV was over $1000!

Now that we're buying our cars, the annual renewal keeps decreasing each year .. I'm hoping to spend something like $600 for all 3 of our cars this year. As if that wasn't bad enough, since we were foolish enough to buy all of our cars in November, the renewal is due in January of each year, so I've got to have that money ready to go right after the holidays! Yuck.

lemmer

I am getting tempted by the deal on the 525i, but my dealer doesn't have any with a MSRP of less than $48,000. Does the 76% apply to options too?

nippononly

on a couple of potential beater purchases

- 1991 Subaru Legacy wagon automatic, 162K, mismatched wheel covers, a few minor things wrong but drives fine, $900.

- 1990 Camry stick shift, 178K, worn paint, a few little things wrong, but also drives fine and has a nice new Sony CD and new tires, $1000.

Both have working A/C, one of my few criteria these days. :-)

Was going to look for an older Impreza or Accord, but they are proving to be few and far between right now. So I might go ahead or I might stick it out for a newer Legacy or Impreza. Or maybe go out of my way for an older Accord. Someone had a really cute-looking (in the on-line pics) '87 Accord automatic advertised for $1000 that they said drives fine and has 203K miles. But it is a half hour drive from where I live, I'd prefer a VERY local car. Haven't looked at it yet, if ever.

Decisions, decisions! :-)

woodyww

The only leases I saw that remotely interested me on Edmunds, that were less than $300/mo. (my limit to just "rent" something), were on the Honda Pilot, Accord, & Toyota SR5 4 Runner. Maybe not hugely exciting cars, but if I "really needed a car", right now, one of those would certainly suffice.....

andre1969

that's my favorite style of Camry, so I say go for it! I still see the occasional '87-91 Camry here in the DC area, and usually they're still pretty solid. At worst, there's usually just a little rust behind the rear wheel where the bumper wraparound and metal of the quarter panel meet. Now unfortunately, many of them do have shot paint by now, but I still see an occasional nice one.

woodyww

I just figured out that my E-39 5 series, that I bought 4 yrs. ago (when it was 2 yrs. old),
has probably depreciated by maybe 45%. So if I sold it privately, right now, the depreciation would equal about $312/mo. for 48 mo.

Not exactly great, but IMO better than leasing a brand new bmw or whatever @$500/mo., & ending up with Nothing at lease end. And, I now still own a low mileage car worth maybe $17-$19K (I think). Instead of Nothing, if I had leased a $300/mo car for 48 months.....

I guess, after thinking about it for 20 minutes, I realized that as much as I hate
car payments, one thing I would hate even worse, is making big car payments & then ending up with Nothing at lease end. I think I'd buy a 5 y.o. Camry or 4Runner for cash before I'd do that.....end of rant.

nippononly

Yeah, I am leaning towards the Camry because it is a stick, although it would be kind of cool to fool with an older Legacy for a year or so.

There is a dealer near me (not a new car dealer, an independent) that has two Camrys from that generation, both in BEAUTIFUL condition. Both V-6, rust-free, paint is glossy, it's pretty amazing given the age. I looked for the telltale signs of a repaint, and couldn't find any. They have an '88 for $2500 and a '91 for $4000. Both are in the 100-150K range for miles, I forget the exact numbers.

Thing is, I don't want to get a car that will just run flawlessly for a year, I want to be able to fool with it! :-)

corvette

Nothing to keep you from fooling with a flawlessly running car!

steine13

That's voodoo math... having figured your depreciation cost of $312/mo, you can't' go on saying "... still own a low-mileage car worth maybe $17-19k..."

You have to look at what you really paid for the car, and look at what it's still worth now that it's paid off.

Just trying to keep everybody (else) honest,
I remain,
-Mathias

kyfdx

The residual percentage applies to the full MSRP, including options and destination... If $45K MSRP = $500/mo., then $48K MSRP = $534/mo.. More or less...

regards,
kyfdx

kyfdx

I love the Camry... but does it have the motorized seat belts? I'll never have that again.. I married into one of those cars...

kyfdx

I agree... the Pilot has had the best lease deals going lately...

Good 24 month leases are rare, though... The Audi A4 has a pretty attractive 24 month lease right now, also...

mark156

Hey Nip, you wouldn't drive a half hour to find a good car? You have got to be kidding us! Do you live in a one horse town or what?

Would you like them to deliver that Camry to your door step?

LOL

Mark

wcf2alterego

you drive either a Ford or GM product and are left no other choice but to continue to search for a quality product in that line-up?

nippononly

Yeah, I probably would. But in that price range, I might be calling the tow truck on my drive back from buying the car. It's a half hour away on the freeway. That's the hold-up, not taking a drive to check cars out.

Plus, it's in the city and I am in the burbs. In this price range, suburban cars are a much better bet than urban ones. Cars in the city do way more short trips, get driven less, beat up more, and maintained less. But I will probably give it a look-see anyway this weekend.

kyfdx: yeah, you are right on about the darned motorized belts. I hate those too. In this vintage, though, they are hard to avoid, no matter what model I go with.

Now there are a couple of later cars in the running too, a '94 Accord and a '95 Legacy for $3000, and neither of those has the motor belts, I don't think.

Or I could pick up the Camry and just permanently unplug the shoulder belt (ooooooh, dangerous!).

mark156

Nip, I didn't realize that you lived outside of San Fran. I was just there for Thanksgiving staying at the Clift Hotel and had to drive to Hercules for Thanksgiving dinner (22 miles?). It took almost an hour to go just one way! WOW, the traffic was amazing so now I see what you are talking about finding a car "in the burbs".

I didn't know that the San Francisco International Auto Show was going on that weekend... what luck! I spent about 3 hours at the downtown convention center inspecting my favorite cars. :shades:

I just purchased a 2006 Land Rover LR3 HSE and with 11 full days of ownership and 250 miles.

Happy Holidays to all.. Mark156

woodyww

Well, I paid around $34K cash, for a 2 y.o. 5 series with about 12K miles. 4 years later it's got 24K miles, so I figure it might be worth $19K if I sold it privately. Might be optimistic for a 2000 5-series, but with the low miles, it's a wagon, etc., maybe not.

Even if I sold it for $17K, that = $354/mo depreciation over 4 years. Unless my calculator (or brain) is going haywire. But probably my post wasn't specific enough (I think I left out what I paid for the car).

*That's voodoo math.....you can't' go on saying "... still own a low-mileage car worth maybe $17-19k..." You have to look at what you really paid for the car, and look at what it's still worth now that it's paid off*

nippononly

Yeah, you gotta love that I-80 corridor, huh? The less time I spend over that way, the better.

I spent 20 minutes crawling around a LR3 at that very same auto show (I wonder if we were there at the same time - Saturday?) - it is probably the only SUV short of a Suburban whose third row makes sense, in fact some kids commented the same while I was in it. There is actually room for a human, it's a miracle. I really like the interior - I know reviewers always complain about the myriad of dash buttons in Land Rovers, but for me it looked manageable.

Have fun with it! :-)

steine13

My point is that it's only $312/month after you sell the car, in which case you similarly have, well, no car left.

So the comparison to the lease is pretty close.

-Mathias

mark156

Stuart, I was actually at the car show on the Friday after Thanksgiving. I was going to catch up with my friends to do "Napa Valley" but I found out the car show was going on so I quickly bowed out. I didn't want to drive the 2-3 hours it would have taken to get to Napa anyway.

The third seat on the LR3 is what helped me make my decision as I was comparing the Volvo XC90 and the new Jeep Commander. All of the vehicles have "positives" in their own right but the Land Rover fit my criteria better.

I'm adding the wood dash to mine; the wood should arrive next week.

Mark

jlawrence01

I love the Camry... but does it have the motorized seat belts? I'll never have that again.. I married into one of those cars...

I was in a '92 Camry with the automatic stranglers (g). One comment, My friend parked next to a '06 Camry ... it has grown a LOT in the past 14 years. WOW. The difference.
And the '92's doorslam reminds me of the Echo.

ghulet

...put a '91 Camry next to a '92 and you'd be startled at the growth there, as well, IMO. The '87-91s really look like compacts at this point, the '92 was really the first that could be called 'mid-sized' (even if not by the EPA). The '02-06 camrys are pretty huge, a bit bigger to the eye than the current Accord, but then I thought the last Accords were large, maybe cuz my S.O. at the time had an '84 Accord, which look ridiculous now.

As to the 'door slam' effect, I've never been impressed with most cars' sound, except certain SAABs, most older Mercedes and, strangely, my old '87 Accord (wasn't really a 'thunk', but closed securely and had great panel gaps all around).

stickguy

everytime I think I have figured out what I can (or should) live with, I go and prove myself wrong. The nice 20.5K SUbe LEgacy should have everything thing I need, but then I go and check out a 2006 TSX. Damn, that one has comfy seats, and every goodie (including ones I hadn't even thought of).

I really would regret getting something withour XM built in. And even though I probably wouldn't actually use the bluetooth, it really is neat to have (a safety feature I believe, yeah, that's the ticket...) SOrry, just practicing for the wife...

At least I know with my history, either spend the money and get what I really want (but am usually too cheap to pay for), or just keep what I have. And keep looking..

Actually, the Jetta has everything the TSX has (sans Bluetooth, but adds power lumbar), expect for a few odds/ends (homelink, memory seats, etc.) for about 2.5K less sticker. ALthough I think the Acura might be a better choice overall..

Too bad for the Sube dealer. He had me hooked, and if they hadn't lowballed my trade, I might own it already. At least he keeps calling and raising the trade in offer (negoaiting against himself).

What to do, what to do...

woodyww

GOOD point. I'm biased towards owning high end German cars, & the only way I can sanely do that is to buy them used with a few miles & years on them. And probably paying cash is part of the equation, to avoid financing charges on a used car.

So the discussion of leasing a New 525i at $500/mo. got me thinking about what buying my then 2 y.o. 5 series has really cost me. A lot less than buying or leasing a new one. And, & don't have to fool around now leasing another car, with more payments.

Another way I'm looking at it is, the kind of new cars I could have leased at the time for around $300/mo. were IMO not remotely in the same league at all as a bmw 5-series.
Of course, I had to cough up $34K upfront, which a lot of people can't or don't want to do (I'm not sure I would at this point).

I'm also usually a "keep a car for 10 years" kind of guy (if I really like the car). So it would be interesting to compare what that costs over 10 years rather than going thru 3 or 4 leases during that time. So I'm hoping that by keeping the car another few years I can really make the initial purchase "pay off".

Of course all of this is based on my personal preferances. It "feels like" I'm being more frugal to pay cash for a really nice 2 y.o. car., & keep it for 8-10 years. And I can thus "rationalize" owning a really nice BMW. And of course, a truly sick bmw nut sometimes needs to rationalize like crazy.

Gotta go, & think up some reasons why it "makes sense" for me to buy an M3.......

cheers, woody

woodyww

Here's a big, giant vote for the TSX over the VW. You will thank yourself in a few years, & probably immediately as well. To me, Acura = "Quality". And you will get the extra $2.5K versus the VW back when you sell it someday (& probably more than that, compared to a VW of the same year).

And if I get the sense of your post, it seems like you "want" the Acura more than the VW, or Subie.....

anonymousposts

fits all of your criteria + the bonus is that it is an Acura which will probably net you better service as well as less of that better service.

The TSX has the 6-speed, safety, reliability, great seats, and every other doo-dad is standard (except NAV). Plus, it's got the turn signals in the mirror.

FWIW: Our dealership just offered $14,000 on a 05 TC with 15,000 miles. Maybe there is more money to be had on your trade. Have you tried shopping it around at a Scion dealer? If they don't have a lot of inventory they might give you good money to sell it back.

stickguy

I think carmax would offer more.

The Sube dealer called Saturday and came up to 13K on it. I told them I wanted 14K, and if they had taken it I would probably have the Legacy already.

I did stop at the Scion dealer I bought it from and chatted with the salesdude. I did say I might trade it. They came back (sight unseen) with 13K, which was "book". But, per Terry's nice little list, it seems they are going well above book at this point.

Oh, and they had another 2005 on used row (an AT, silimilar miles), asking $19,995. A different local dealer has a 5 speed '05 listed at $19,995 also. Mine is just about front row ready. DOesn't even need to be waxed, since I just did it!

Actually, the Sube is a nice car, and has a lot going for it. There are a couple of things that aren't quite right for me, but nothing that would prevent me from living with it.

Of course, it doesn't have the nifty electroluminescant (sp?) guages, XM built in (I really, really want this..), super comfy seats, all those gadgets (like bluetooth) that I will never use but still want to have, and I'm sure a few other niceties (steering wheel audio I guess).

I always did like the TSX, but it is a bit pricey. THe real comparison should be to an Accord EX-L, which has almost all the good stuff, or at least enough to make a 5K price difference hard to justify, but I'm sure I will manage somehow.

I will have it for 10 years if I get something nice, so I better like it!

anonymousposts

We have it in our Accord and it's worth it. Normal FM/AM radio just seems outdated and unsatisfying once you have experienced XM radio.

woodyww

How much more is the TSX than the Subaru model? And is AWD important to you at all?

I think if you got a really great deal on either, you wouldn't go wrong. But I'm still hearing that the TSX turns you on. If you want it, & can afford it, I'd say go for it. It's an Acura......

stickguy

isn't really that important. I just liked the way the SUbe drives. I really wouldn't mind having RWD, but none of the options really work for me (either functionally or $$ wise).

THe TSX drives real nicely for a FWD car, so I don't have any problems with that. Plus, I will be teaching my son to drive in 1.5 years, so getting something too tricky (or powerful) might not be the best idea.

The teenage thing was actually one of the pluses to the Legacy, but I think a TSX would be OK too.

corvette

XM is nice, and I would probably listen to the radio regularly if I had it. What is their pricing plan like if you have more than one receiver?

andre1969

they're starting to pipe that stuff in on the upper Directv stations, and I'm starting to see its allure. Dunno if I'd be ready to spring for it in a car yet, though.

stickguy

you pay for each receiver, but you get some sort of discount when you have multiples.

hammen2

I think it's $12.95 for the first one, and $6.95 ea. for receivers 2 through 4. I have all 4 (my two cars/one SkyFi boombox at work, wife's truck, mother) though service is presently suspended for the Roady in my GTO, since it's in storage...

woodyww

One of the reasons I stay in the Boston area--& put up with the insane cost of housing here (& just about everything, for that matter)--is the 2 or 3 superb non-commercial FM stations, for Jazz &/or Classical music--esp. WGBH. You wouldn't believe what a difference it makes.....

jefferyg

We have Sirius in our new car and love it. I have a good friend who is a "mobile entertainment specialist" (he has his own car audio business) who deals with both XM and Sirius. He told me you can also get a discount if you pay for a year at a time.

Also, if you don't want to pay for so many recievers and subscriptions you can buy one reciever and have a docking station installed in each vehicle.

anonymousposts

so it averages out to be about $7 per month. Not bad.

We are in the shopping mood again - must be the whole Christmas thing. We are thinking TL right now. White 6-speed with black leather would do it.

lemmer

You guys are out of control. It inspires me.

mark156

Jolie (akangl) needs to get on the computer and let us know how her trip to Texas went.

Mark

michaellno

My stepson, who moved to Utah a month ago, called last night asking if we would be willing to cosign with him for a new (used) truck.

The ad for the truck can be found here

He is currently driving a 2001 Saturn L200 - he owes around $3K and they offered him $1800 in trade. With tax, it comes out to around $19K.

We did some quick figuring with Edmunds TMV and came up with $16.2K - they are asking $16.9K. When we told him that the payments would be $350-400 a month for 5 years, it stopped him short.

Never did get a call back ... I'm assuming that once he got the numbers from the dealer, he chose not to proceed.

OTOH, I found out that our L300 needs new front pads and rotors. Looks to be about $300-500 to replace. Was told that the front pads are too soft to be turned.

corvette

You guys are out of control. It inspires me.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

stickguy

heading off to make a trade. If everything goes according to plan, I will be able to post details of the new member of the family in a couple of hours.

I* think I'm getting a great deal. Or I'm getting hosed, but I'm sure the fine people on Edmunds will decide for me.

kyfdx

I think you are making this decision much too easily.. Are you sure you'll be happy with a Subaru? Won't you lust after every Jetta and TSX that you see from now on? How can you possibly just jump into the fire, without considering all options?

Just trying to help out..