Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

qbrozen

laurasdada said:

See: "Nova" in Spanish speaking countries, tambien...

Oh, I'm familiar with that old one. And you'd think the rest of the world would have learned from that.

tjc78

Pretty cool little rig Q.

28firefighter

Love that Q.

qbrozen

I think I need some supersleuth help from the peanut gallery.

Pretty frustrated with the whole dealership thing. Of course, that leads one to look for alternative routes. There seems to be 2 "solutions." One is what is called a co-op dealership, or license sharing. This is highly suspect and has even resulted in some lawsuits. So let's just take that off the table. The other is ... not sure what else to call it except maybe a "remote dealership." There are a few companies I have found that offer a service whereby they help establish and maintain a dealership that is in your name. I THINK this is legal. I mean, there are plenty of big players who have dealerships in multiple states.

However, of course, I am very wary and concerned I'll pay money and get nothing in return. How do I know these people will follow through? What are my guarantees?

And what about the requirement (at least in my state) that a dealer can only sell a vehicle at their place of business? How do Carvana and Vroom get away with it? I can order a car and it shows up in my driveway. I never went to their place of business. So why do [some/all] states have this requirement about only selling at a physical dealer address?

I don't necessarily want to post the websites for some of these places I have found. I've had interactions with 3 of them thus far. And 2 of those I've had some back and forth with. One of them, with some digging, I found their office address was occupied by another business. When I asked about it, the response was "our whole business is remote offices and sharing space, so of course you'll find multiple businesses at any one of our addresses." Hmmm. They also are located in Chicago but the license they issue is based in KS. The other company I chatted with has multiple websites under different business names. When I pointed that out, the reply was "We advertise as a company in many different ways as any successful businesses do in 2022. It also helps us block out spam callers, telemarketers, etc." Again, hmmm. I can't follow how having multiple business names stops spam.(?) As for the 3rd company, I've only gotten pricing so far. What troubles me, though, is their website claims they are in FL, and I was called from an FL phone, but the address on the email and that is registered to the business is Arkansas.

If anybody knows anything, I'd love to hear it.

corvette

qbrozen said:

And what about the requirement (at least in my state) that a dealer can only sell a vehicle at their place of business? How do Carvana and Vroom get away with it? ... So why do [some/all] states have this requirement about only selling at a physical dealer address?

I'm going to guess the official reason they would give for having that requirement is for "consumer protection," but if you peel back the layers of the onion, you'd discover that it was lobbying by NADA and its ilk that generated the requirement. Basically an effort to keep the small guys out of the business by requiring an expensive overhead (office and lot) that the bigger dealerships would always have anyway.

I'm guessing that Carvana and Vroom having a physical presence is enough to keep the hounds at bay. Dealers have been delivering used cars to people's homes/businesses, sometimes out of state, for years, if the offered price is right.

sda

Do you have a dealer that sells on consignment? I had good luck selling my 2001 Aurora 4.0 some years ago on consignment and sold for considerably more than CarMax or a dealer would offer me. My wife didn't want me to sell it privately, potential risk.

28firefighter

Have you thought about approaching an existing indie lot (maybe an upscale one) and seeing if they'll let you "buy in" to their store? There is a high end indie store out here that basically operates on this model - one central location, lot, license but each sales person buys, manages the recon, and sells their own inventory under their umbrella.

28firefighter

Saw someone asked about the recall on the N - I need to call the dealer this week and see if they have a remedy yet, and if so, can they also take me for a post break-in period oil change (outside the usual maintenance schedule).

qbrozen

28firefighter said:

Have you thought about approaching an existing indie lot (maybe an upscale one) and seeing if they'll let you "buy in" to their store? There is a high end indie store out here that basically operates on this model - one central location, lot, license but each sales person buys, manages the recon, and sells their own inventory under their umbrella.

Wow. That's a lot of trust there. One person breaks the law and you all go down. Not something I'd risk.

28firefighter

qbrozen said:

28firefighter said:

Have you thought about approaching an existing indie lot (maybe an upscale one) and seeing if they'll let you "buy in" to their store? There is a high end indie store out here that basically operates on this model - one central location, lot, license but each sales person buys, manages the recon, and sells their own inventory under their umbrella.

Wow. That's a lot of trust there. One person breaks the law and you all go down. Not something I'd risk.

Yeah I'm guessing it is more on the up and up than I made it sound - they've been open for like 30 years, so I'm inclined to think the model works.

oldfarmer50

qbrozen said:

I think I need some supersleuth help from the peanut gallery.

Pretty frustrated with the whole dealership thing. Of course, that leads one to look for alternative routes. There seems to be 2 "solutions." One is what is called a co-op dealership, or license sharing. This is highly suspect and has even resulted in some lawsuits. So let's just take that off the table. The other is ... not sure what else to call it except maybe a "remote dealership." There are a few companies I have found that offer a service whereby they help establish and maintain a dealership that is in your name. I THINK this is legal. I mean, there are plenty of big players who have dealerships in multiple states.

However, of course, I am very wary and concerned I'll pay money and get nothing in return. How do I know these people will follow through? What are my guarantees?

And what about the requirement (at least in my state) that a dealer can only sell a vehicle at their place of business? How do Carvana and Vroom get away with it? I can order a car and it shows up in my driveway. I never went to their place of business. So why do [some/all] states have this requirement about only selling at a physical dealer address?

I don't necessarily want to post the websites for some of these places I have found. I've had interactions with 3 of them thus far. And 2 of those I've had some back and forth with. One of them, with some digging, I found their office address was occupied by another business. When I asked about it, the response was "our whole business is remote offices and sharing space, so of course you'll find multiple businesses at any one of our addresses." Hmmm. They also are located in Chicago but the license they issue is based in KS. The other company I chatted with has multiple websites under different business names. When I pointed that out, the reply was "We advertise as a company in many different ways as any successful businesses do in 2022. It also helps us block out spam callers, telemarketers, etc." Again, hmmm. I can't follow how having multiple business names stops spam.(?) As for the 3rd company, I've only gotten pricing so far. What troubles me, though, is their website claims they are in FL, and I was called from an FL phone, but the address on the email and that is registered to the business is Arkansas.

If anybody knows anything, I'd love to hear it.

That Flying Wheels guy on YT claims he can teach you all you need to know to set up a dealership. Hoovie set up his dealership in the Car Wizard’s break room, I think.

My farm was much simpler to set up. I needed a nursery license and a sales tax permit. I used my own checking account for transactions.

I think I was supposed to get a DBA from the county but I didn’t see them doing anything for that other than collecting 20 bucks so I never did.

oldfarmer50

sda said:

Do you have a dealer that sells on consignment? I had good luck selling my 2001 Aurora 4.0 some years ago on consignment and sold for considerably more than CarMax or a dealer would offer me. My wife didn't want me to sell it privately, potential risk.

Now that you mention it, Randy from AAR just sends his cars to Copart auctions. His stuff is junk but that might be a way of avoiding a lot of paperwork.

tjc78

@oldfarmer50 said:
Now that you mention it, Randy from AAR just sends his cars to Copart auctions. His stuff is junk but that might be a way of avoiding a lot of paperwork.

Good point OF. Q, can you just start selling them on BAT/EBay Motors etc until you are ready to get a physical location?

pensfan83

qbrozen said:

I think I need some supersleuth help from the peanut gallery.

Pretty frustrated with the whole dealership thing. Of course, that leads one to look for alternative routes. There seems to be 2 "solutions." One is what is called a co-op dealership, or license sharing. This is highly suspect and has even resulted in some lawsuits. So let's just take that off the table. The other is ... not sure what else to call it except maybe a "remote dealership." There are a few companies I have found that offer a service whereby they help establish and maintain a dealership that is in your name. I THINK this is legal. I mean, there are plenty of big players who have dealerships in multiple states.

However, of course, I am very wary and concerned I'll pay money and get nothing in return. How do I know these people will follow through? What are my guarantees?

And what about the requirement (at least in my state) that a dealer can only sell a vehicle at their place of business? How do Carvana and Vroom get away with it? I can order a car and it shows up in my driveway. I never went to their place of business. So why do [some/all] states have this requirement about only selling at a physical dealer address?

I don't necessarily want to post the websites for some of these places I have found. I've had interactions with 3 of them thus far. And 2 of those I've had some back and forth with. One of them, with some digging, I found their office address was occupied by another business. When I asked about it, the response was "our whole business is remote offices and sharing space, so of course you'll find multiple businesses at any one of our addresses." Hmmm. They also are located in Chicago but the license they issue is based in KS. The other company I chatted with has multiple websites under different business names. When I pointed that out, the reply was "We advertise as a company in many different ways as any successful businesses do in 2022. It also helps us block out spam callers, telemarketers, etc." Again, hmmm. I can't follow how having multiple business names stops spam.(?) As for the 3rd company, I've only gotten pricing so far. What troubles me, though, is their website claims they are in FL, and I was called from an FL phone, but the address on the email and that is registered to the business is Arkansas.

If anybody knows anything, I'd love to hear it.

So these companies help create a virtual dealership. Is that where the help stops? Do they provide a support structure for regulatory, legal, financial questions? Assist with building your virtual "showroom" with on the ground support? Do they help with a web presence? Advertising? Sorry for all the questions, just find it interesting.

If you've looked up the businesses you're engaged with on a corporate registry then also look up the registered agent as well, unless it's a 3rd party. Some states like Florida you'll find that the individual is tied to many businesses with different names for the same business purpose. Sometimes there's legitimate reasons for that such as for RE holdings, sometimes there are not. An example is a payday lending chain who, surprise, scammed consumers. The beneficial owner registered at least 10 different legal entities and because all of the businesses were existing on paper for many years, no one suspected anything. He knew what he was doing because he had the foresight to register businesses knowing he'd have to "hop" from one to the next as his scheme unraveled. And I don't buy the "advertise under many names" excuse, it just obfuscates things more for the unwitting consumer.

28firefighter

tjc78 said:

@oldfarmer50 said:

Now that you mention it, Randy from AAR just sends his cars to Copart auctions. His stuff is junk but that might be a way of avoiding a lot of paperwork.

Good point OF. Q, can you just start selling them on BAT/EBay Motors etc until you are ready to get a physical location?

My guess is he is going to run up against the limitations of the state in private sellers selling cars (6 cars a year in WA). Plus has to keep paying sales tax.

tjc78

Yep.. forgot the tax part and a quick Google shows it only to be 4 in Nj. Not gonna work!

xwesx

stickguy said:

same here. I took out the mortgage on the new place because we got it first so had 2 briefly (won't do that again!). and was annoyed the rate was 3.625 (I think our old one was at 2.625 or so). But looks good now! paid most of it off, and could do the rest but sitting on the cash for now but will probably pay off another 1/2 the balance soon. I think that would mean about 2.5 years of just letting the normal payment come out and it would be done. Seems smart right now to keep the cushion in the bank!

Yessir. No reason to use the cash for that right now at 3.625%. Heck, you could just take the same cash, throw it in a CD for twelve months, and have a little left over at the end.

qbrozen

tjc78 said:

Yep.. forgot the tax part and a quick Google shows it only to be 4 in Nj. Not gonna work!

Wait. Where did you find that? I've been unable to find that number. I even contacted MVC and they couldn't/wouldn't help me.

To try to answer some questions: you NEED a physical address. These companies are providing that, just not in your home state, necessarily. What you do with it is up to you. I, of course, don't care about a physical address right now. It isn't my business model. But, I don't have a choice in the matter. What's worse is the ridiculous rules in NJ regarding this physical address. Hoovie's setup, for example, would not be approved here. These companies I'm referring to are obviously setting up these dealerships in much more lenient states.

stickguy

seems like a viable option would be to rent a desk at a local gas station/repair shop that has some extra parking. a small spare office would be even better. also a logical place to park cars!

tjc78

@qbrozen said:
Wait. Where did you find that? I've been unable to find that number. I even contacted MVC and they couldn't/wouldn't help me.

To try to answer some questions: you NEED a physical address. These companies are providing that, just not in your home state, necessarily. What you do with it is up to you. I, of course, don't care about a physical address right now. It isn't my business model. But, I don't have a choice in the matter. What's worse is the ridiculous rules in NJ regarding this physical address. Hoovie's setup, for example, would not be approved here. These companies I'm referring to are obviously setting up these dealerships in much more lenient states.

Sorry… I Googled it again and it was not NJ specific as I thought it was.

On another note. Wow..Hader just mowed us down in the 9th like it was nothing.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

seems like a viable option would be to rent a desk at a local gas station/repair shop that has some extra parking. a small spare office would be even better. also a logical place to park cars!

just like the Hoovie thing, that is not allowed. Has to be dedicated space that is firewalled off from any other business, with its own dedicated phone and internet. And let's not forget the signage that is visible from the road.

qbrozen

tjc78 said:

On another note. Wow..Hader just mowed us down in the 9th like it was nothing.

Eh. Had my hopes up a little with the 4-0 lead, but, from the getgo, I was going to be happy just splitting the set in SD. In Philly will be a whole different story. That's where the Philly bats really come alive.

corvette

stickguy

Congrats!

jmonroe1

@corvette, good luck. I’m sure this is the news you’ve been waiting for. Just hope it doesn’t fall off the car carrier.

jmonroe

Sandman6472

I really like that small Mitsubishi & having driven a postal Jeep for many years, a right handed vehicle is no big deal for me. Just wish I could convince the wife to let me get that as a third vehicle.

Sandman6472

Picked up some more new 2022 vehicles today. First was a new Kia Sorrento in a dark gray color with blacked out alloys and it was really super nice. Great acceleration & ergonomics throughout though a bit too big for my tastes, thinking the Santa Fe is the Hyundai offering. Then it was onto another Nissan store & a new Frontier SV model in dark gray but with a lighter alloy wheel. Drove very nicely, even nicer than the Toyota Tacoma. Both had Sirius/XM up & running thought the sound system in the Sorrento was far superior to the one in the Frontier. Was really raining when I got the Frontier but felt very safe while driving it through stop & go traffic on I-95. Felt very stable & safe at all speeds in very wet nasty conditions.

jmonroe1

Sandman6472 said:

I really like that small Mitsubishi & having driven a postal Jeep for many years, a right handed vehicle is no big deal for me. Just wish I could convince the wife to let me get that as a third vehicle.

————————————————-
Do you plan to start delivering mail again?

jmonroe

Sandman6472

Can't believe how much better the Golf is driving now that we replaced all the spark plugs. Minimal turbo lag & just feels more responsive. Since it's staying in the stable for the next year or so, it was money well spent. And so much easier working under the hood now that the strut works as intended & I no longer need another pair of hands to do anything under the hood. Overall, the paint is looking really good as it hasn't been waxed in a long long time. I used to have it done at least 3 times a year at a local car wash but haven't had it done in like 8 months now. Found some older wax product in the garage, a spray on kind of foam and am amazed at how well the front hood looks since. Water beads up immediately and since I'm doing it myself, doing it in stages so as not to injure my back again. Also, parking it in the garage every night also helps in keeping the paint in good overall condition.
Have to say, the Golf is still putting that sh-t-eating grin on my face whenever I see it still, a good sign I suspect! This has to be the one vehicle I've owned that I really like the best!! But, at the Mini Cooper store today, I did see a couple of vehicles that might have me considering swapping into something new sooner than later. Did check, they still are charging MSRP plus that ridiculous ADM fee so one thing I do know, I'll never buy one without that ADM fee taken off the top before we even sit down to talk! I just refuse to play that game!!!

au1994

qbrozen said:

I think I need some supersleuth help from the peanut gallery.

Pretty frustrated with the whole dealership thing. Of course, that leads one to look for alternative routes. There seems to be 2 "solutions." One is what is called a co-op dealership, or license sharing. This is highly suspect and has even resulted in some lawsuits. So let's just take that off the table. The other is ... not sure what else to call it except maybe a "remote dealership." There are a few companies I have found that offer a service whereby they help establish and maintain a dealership that is in your name. I THINK this is legal. I mean, there are plenty of big players who have dealerships in multiple states.

However, of course, I am very wary and concerned I'll pay money and get nothing in return. How do I know these people will follow through? What are my guarantees?

And what about the requirement (at least in my state) that a dealer can only sell a vehicle at their place of business? How do Carvana and Vroom get away with it? I can order a car and it shows up in my driveway. I never went to their place of business. So why do [some/all] states have this requirement about only selling at a physical dealer address?

I don't necessarily want to post the websites for some of these places I have found. I've had interactions with 3 of them thus far. And 2 of those I've had some back and forth with. One of them, with some digging, I found their office address was occupied by another business. When I asked about it, the response was "our whole business is remote offices and sharing space, so of course you'll find multiple businesses at any one of our addresses." Hmmm. They also are located in Chicago but the license they issue is based in KS. The other company I chatted with has multiple websites under different business names. When I pointed that out, the reply was "We advertise as a company in many different ways as any successful businesses do in 2022. It also helps us block out spam callers, telemarketers, etc." Again, hmmm. I can't follow how having multiple business names stops spam.(?) As for the 3rd company, I've only gotten pricing so far. What troubles me, though, is their website claims they are in FL, and I was called from an FL phone, but the address on the email and that is registered to the business is Arkansas.

If anybody knows anything, I'd love to hear it.

If I follow correctly, its the state regs that are tripping you up? If not, is there a small town nearby that my have more and cheaper real estate available and less bureaucracy ?

ab348

When is Ford flipping over to the 2023 model year at the Maverick assembly plant? Seems mighty late in the game to be buying a 2022.

tjc78

@oldfarmer50
@Sandman6472

Have you driven a recent Murano? How does it compare to a RAV? Nissan is pumping up the 18 month residuals and I’m thinking this may be a replacement for Mom’s RAV… otherwise I’m having her buy it. No way you can get a 2019 RAV XLE with 17K miles for $20K anywhere so it’s not a bad deal for her.

tjc78

@qbrozen said:
Eh. Had my hopes up a little with the 4-0 lead, but, from the getgo, I was going to be happy just splitting the set in SD. In Philly will be a whole different story. That's where the Philly bats really come alive.

Yep. I can really see this one going 7. Phil’s take 2 of 3 at home and then back to SD. Good matchup here.

stickguy

@ab348 said:
When is Ford flipping over to the 2023 model year at the Maverick assembly plant? Seems mighty late in the game to be buying a 2022.

December at this point. Building 22s through end of November. Very long model year run. 2023 will be a short one

stickguy

@tjc78 said:
@oldfarmer50
@Sandman6472

Have you driven a recent Murano? How does it compare to a RAV? Nissan is pumping up the 18 month residuals and I’m thinking this may be a replacement for Mom’s RAV… otherwise I’m having her buy it. No way you can get a 2019 RAV XLE with 17K miles for $20K anywhere so it’s not a bad deal for her.

Driving that much makes sense to buy it anyway. I’d bet that if she was that used to the rav she likely won’t like a murano anyway. But don’t know until you try.

But even in a softening market that is a steal.

stickguy

@au1994 said:
If I follow correctly, its the state regs that are tripping you up? If not, is there a small town nearby that my have more and cheaper real estate available and less bureaucracy ?

State level most likely.

Here’s an idea. Explore PA and Delaware. Might be less onerous. And would be virtual anyway.

nyccarguy

@qbrozen

What exactly are the "bare minimum" regulations for this physical structure?

qbrozen

nyccarguy said:

@qbrozen

What exactly are the "bare minimum" regulations for this physical structure?

just an 8x10 office, bathroom, and 2 display spaces.

However, office has to be firewalled off from any other business, and signed off by an engineer as such. So that excludes most multi-business structures. It is far easier to have a standalone structure.

So you start looking at standalones, BUT it has to fall into the appropriate town zone, which, from the dozens I have researched so far, is either Industrial or Highway Commercial. As you can imagine, finding property and/or buildings in these zones that doesn't cost a fortune is VERY rare.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

State level most likely.

Here’s an idea. Explore PA and Delaware. Might be less onerous. And would be virtual anyway.

I've looked at PA. They have a different set of application requirements. According to their application guidelines, someone needs to be part of the business who has experience in the business. The age-old Catch-22 of "you can't get experience without already having experience." Huh?? Thanks, PA.

venture

qbrozen said:

nyccarguy said:

@qbrozen

What exactly are the "bare minimum" regulations for this physical structure?

just an 8x10 office, bathroom, and 2 display spaces.

However, office has to be firewalled off from any other business, and signed off by an engineer as such. So that excludes most multi-business structures. It is far easier to have a standalone structure.

So you start looking at standalones, BUT it has to fall into the appropriate town zone, which, from the dozens I have researched so far, is either Industrial or Highway Commercial. As you can imagine, finding property and/or buildings in these zones that doesn't cost a fortune is VERY rare.

A firewall can just be Type X drywall placed over the existing wall, I believe, to separate your area from the rest of the building.

stickguy

I always wanted a dead gas station. Plenty of them around. Would of course likely cost a fortune, and you need to make sure the tanks were removed and the ground certified clean.

How about building a barn on your property? Can that be done per zoning?

kyfdx

tjc78 said:

@oldfarmer50
@Sandman6472

Have you driven a recent Murano? How does it compare to a RAV? Nissan is pumping up the 18 month residuals and I’m thinking this may be a replacement for Mom’s RAV… otherwise I’m having her buy it. No way you can get a 2019 RAV XLE with 17K miles for $20K anywhere so it’s not a bad deal for her.

I sold my uncle's 2018 RAV4 with 4K miles for $25,500 in August (wholesale to a dealer). She'd be crazy not to buy out the 2019.

explorerx4

A Murano is a bigger than a RAV4, She would have to be comfortable with that.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

I always wanted a dead gas station. Plenty of them around. Would of course likely cost a fortune, and you need to make sure the tanks were removed and the ground certified clean.

How about building a barn on your property? Can that be done per zoning?

Sure, I can build it. Selling from it is a different story.

If I were to do the remote office thing with one of these companies, we'd use the money I was going to use to buy property and build a 4-car garage.

qbrozen

venture said:

A firewall can just be Type X drywall placed over the existing wall, I believe, to separate your area from the rest of the building.

Well, that's good, if true. But needs to be all walls, ceilings, and floor, I'd think. Then there is that pesky engineer signoff thing, as well as town and fire inspections/approval. The common thread through all of these issues is that they are all easy to do, but not so easy to get through the red tape.

stickguy

Buy a building and DIY some fixing up. Use it while you are running the dealership, and have it as investment property after that. Hoovie got a great deal on his, though NJ might be pricier than Newton Kansas.

stickguy

Here’s one. Former shell station. Been for sale for years. A couple years ago it was supposed to be auctioned but don’t know if it ever happened. Last year they uncovered the windows for some reason (had been boarded up). And brand new Wawa across the street!

Probably not cost effective. Or convenient.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/yNvXiZxHc6GXu17C8?g_st=ic

stickguy

I always thought that would be great spot for a small car lot.

There are actually a bunch of dead former used car lots scattered around the area. Maybe look for one of those near you.

tjc78

She’s a real beaut Clark…

He could visit your old house while down there!

explorerx4

Old gas stations being used for car detailing businesses are popular locally.