Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

stickguy

yeah, that was a nice deal. If someone had offered that to me last week when I was puttering around in the showrooms, my son might be driving one! Though neither of us wants something that big. And I assume it does not have a moonroof (deal breaker to me at least!)

but especially with 15K, that was a really good price. The same term on a Jetta connect+roof with IIRC 12K/year for 42 months, was $287 inc. tax.

did your payment include DMV fees too, or were they seperate?

stickguy

@sandman, posts do show the date. If it is the current day, it just lists the time. but for prior days, it shows the date. And using the bookmark feature always takes you to the next unread post.

More and more, I am liking the new platform. Heck, at least it always works! Kind of like trading your daily driver 1959 Jaguar for a new Accord. Not as exciting, but much more likely to start every day, with lots of new features!

28firefighter

As you all know, I leased a VW CC about 3 months ago and came to the same conclusion that Breld did. The lease incentives and low interest rate on the lease left me with a base payment of 255/month, 280/month with tax for 36 months on a CC Sport. There was about $5000 of lease cash in addition to some trunk money that left me with a net sales price (including acquisition fee, first month, tags, etc) of 24k on an MSRP 32.5k car.

Not too shabby for the money. Congrats, Breld (for however many months it lasts)!

Happy New Year, Everyone!

roadburner

@breld CONGRATS!!!

breld

@abacomike said:
breld@...but in my mind, I sort of approach it as a different method of financing.

I am sure you know, breld, that I was in the new car business for about 8 years (2000-2008), first as a salesman and then as a sales manager. So I do know something about leasing vs. buying new cars...

Thanks abacomike - very insightful. Good point on the interest being charged on the entire car - which makes sense, since you are indeed getting "use" of the entire car. The sales manager actually made the statement that you only are paying interest on the difference between cost and residual, which I knew wasn't true, but didn't feel there was any need to debate it.

What I didn't think of is what you pointed out that the entire interest cost over the term is amortized into the required payment - so you're right, one way or the other, you're paying interest for the whole term no matter what. Good point. With a low enough money factor, it still may be a reasonable cost, but I like to be aware of those things.

As for the value (wholesale or otherwise) at the end of the lease, isn't that the same predicament whether you finance or lease? The one advantage with the lease is that if the value has depreciated more than expected, you do have the option of turning the car in (plus the disposition fee, which is $350 for VW). And that means you actually paid less in depreciation than you would have if financed. And if by chance the value is higher than the residual, you've essentially paid more in lease payments than you "should have," but theoretically you could sell the car prior to turn-in and "pocket" the extra.

Feel free to point out the flaws in my logic. I'm certainly not suggesting leasing is always the best way to go - obviously I've only done it this one time. But given the right terms, I'm starting to see it as a viable alternative.

Thanks!

roadburner

I found a used 2013 Abarth that is equipped almost exactly the way I would order it; red, red leather, heated seats, and audio upgrade. Only 1,700 miles on it and the store is asking $18,576(@$4000 less than what new ones are going for- and $7000 off MSRP) . Unfortunately it is located in Chicago...

breld

@abacomike said:
breld@...but in my mind, I sort of approach it as a different method of financing.

On the other hand, if you bought the car and took out a 42 month simple interest loan on the car at 1.9%, but then sell the car after 10 months, you only pay interest on the car for 10 months.

That's actually something my wife and I discussed - taking advantage of the discounts offered on the lease, and then "converting" the lease obligation to a regular car loan. Is that a viable option (making sense if you can get a favorable interest rate)?

breld

@stickguy said:
did your payment include DMV fees too, or were they seperate?

I'll pay the DMV fees separately when I register the car. So no, not included in the payment.

au1994

@breld said:
So I'm doing a lease for the first time. At the dealership now. And already have the 'vert on craigslist.

So...how much for the 330i?

abacomike

@breld...With a low enough money factor, it still may be a reasonable cost, but I like to be aware of those things.

It would seem that the money factor is outstanding in this instance, so that will not play a significant role when and if you terminate the lease early.

Converting to a purchase is usually done at the end of a lease for buyers who love their car enough to keep it. Converting to a buy immediately would mean paying double interest (paying the lease buyout which includes the lease interest for 42 months + the interest for converting to a loan on a used car where the rates are not as good as on a new car - and then you miss out on subsidized new car interest rates from the manufacturer).

I do not recommend converting your lease to a buy. If you were going to do that, an outright purchase at first would have been the way to go.

To put this all into perspective, JUST ENJOY YOUR NEW VW and forget about everything else. When you are ready to trade into something else, you'll work things out - you always do!!!

kyfdx

@breld

The money factor on that vehicle is .00045, so your effective interest rate is actually closer to 1.08%

I do find it strange that they offer bigger incentives for leasing than buying, though. (and, they do). Not sure where that makes economic sense. But, maybe they get more sales for their marketing dollars, that way? A friend of mine leased a 2013 VW CC in late November... $5000 of lease cash on that one..

rayainsw

Approaching 7,000 miles on the GTI now, I have also been ‘pondering’ what’s next, HP & TQ & acceleration, want vs. need, and such . . .

I am a Torque addict, I admit it.

The GTI certainly has all the HP and all the TQ I will ever NEED. Yet I do find that I miss several aspects of the BMW 335iS I previously leased. Although the GTI is as comfortable, seating-wise, as the BMW [ and I really like the cloth seats ] and the fuel consumption is certainly better - there are a few things about this car that I really think I do not want to live with – and will likely seek to remedy next time around.

As I think I mentioned here at purchase time, the GTI met certain financial criteria that were of higher priority than when I leased the BMW – and also have changed since late 2006, when the new Corvette arrived in my garage. The GTI was a sort of experiment, in part, to see if I could enjoy \ live with the compromises embodied in this sporty hatch – for the long term.
[ ‘long term’ in CCBA context ]

It is not a bad car – not at all. But after driving it for several months now, I find that some of the limitations have begun to chafe. The GTI’s front wheel drive [ and mediocre Dunlop tires ] mean that I need to be careful of when and where I apply full throttle at low speeds. I miss being able to floor the throttle [ almost ] at will. And I really miss the thrust supplied by the turbocharged I6 BMW motor. The GTI willingly supplies all the thrust it can whenever called upon, but it is a loooong way from providing the feel of that BMW’s seemingly bottomless & effortless torque. The GTI’s 6-speed DSG does a very good job of working with the turbo 4. The transmission is as good as any such device I have driven – even slightly better than the BMW’s DCT at very low speeds = 1 to 15 mph stop & slow, on\off throttle heavy traffic situations. But that BMW straight six’s smoothness is unmatched, in my experience.

The GTI’s cornering is certainly acceptable, the handling could be described as nimble. The FWD and front weight bias are not apparent at most ‘reasonable & prudent’ speeds. The ride is also acceptable – better under some circumstances than the BMW with Michelin run-flats.

So – I do still believe that the GTI was the best available combination of the attributes most important TO ME at or near the price point. And I do not regret the decision [ sometimes experiments fail ] selecting the GTI.

However.

I just really miss several things about that BMW - a lot. And somewhat more than I expected to.
In addition to the swell of TQ always available to kick me in the tail with [ ahem ] substantial urge, I also really miss the sound of that I6 w/performance exhaust. Music to my ears every time I accelerated.

I knew all the differences before purchase, just did not know exactly how much I would miss certain aspects of the BMW. It turns out that ‘acceptable’ does not mean ‘very enjoyable’ much of the time, for me. And I do depend on my car to provide a level of driving enjoyment.

At this point I do not expect to punch again anytime soon, but by late Fall I will probably be watching for deals on a new //M235i . . .
[ Just sayin’ ]

• Ray

Torque junkie to the end . . .

nyccarguy

@breld

Part of the reason I leased my BMW is that a car's biggest cost of ownership is depreciation. With a lease, depreciation is fixed. Yes, I'm paying a much higher interest rate than if I had financed @ 0.9% for 5 years. And as Mike said, I'm paying that said interest of the entire cost of the car, but in 9 months my car will be 2 1/2 years old and have 50,000 miles on it. I know it is going to be worth a lot less than it's stated residual value at lease end so I can just give BMW the keys, my $350 disposition fee, & walk away. Advantage Bradd. Plus it gives me a reason for a CCBA card punch this year. Something I'd be hesitant to do if I was underwater on the loan so to speak.

au1994

@rayainsw...

Thanks for the excellent update on the GTI. I would consider getting a GTI and buying a toy on the side, preferably a drop top. But like you I'm afraid I'm addicted to the I6 perfromance that BMW offers. Something like Breld's 330i intrigues me a lot!! I also cannot wait to try out a M235i and told my CA to let me know as soon as one hits his lot.

I'd like to think if I had the GTI for daily commuting and the BMW drop top to satisfy my TQ itch I'd be happy but I just don't know.

fezo

Well, I haven't read back but find the new layout, in a word, hideous. Too hard to find anything. If you don't hear from me much that's why.

Hanging in slow recovery mode. My future son-in-law has the Solara for a while. Hope he has it in a garage. we''re under a lot of snow. The Mazda is in the garage. Getting it out will be the trick.

corvette

@tifighter said:
Wasn't he the first punch of 2013?

Yes, with the 2011 BMW 335xi.

nyccarguy

So I guess my BMW was hot last night under it's blanket of snow & decided to open its windows to cool off. Now I know what you are all thinking: "you must have hit the button while the key fob was in your pocket Bradd!" We have a key dish, so there goes that theory. All 4 windows were open 3/4 of the way down and the sunroof was closed. Needless to say I was not happy when I went outside @ 5:55 this AM to start up my car and clean it off. Pic to follow.

nyccarguy

Here is a shot of my car after I unlocked it and cleaned off the door.

On a positive note, X-Drive performed flawlessly. I'm sure with a manual transmission and snow tires my 328xi would be a serious winter warrior:) That's the only thing I miss about driving my prelude in the snow. I had 100% full control over the car at all times. Using engine braking to slow the car down with (minus 1) 15" Pilot Alpin PA2 tires and a 3000 lb curb weight that car rocked the winter weather:)

jpp75

@nyccarguy said:
So I guess my BMW was hot last night under it's blanket of snow & decided to open its windows to cool off. Now I know what you are all thinking: "you must have hit the button while the key fob was in your pocket Bradd!" We have a key dish, so there goes that theory. All 4 windows were open 3/4 of the way down and the sunroof was closed. Needless to say I was not happy when I went outside @ 5:55 this AM to start up my car and clean it off. Pic to follow.

Ouch, that's not good at all.

Interesting stats on the mileage for the 328xi vs. the Pilot, but when you do the amount of driving you do it will add up.

jpp75

@breld

Congrats on the new punch! I've done a lot of the same analysis on leasing vs. buying and came to the same conclusions you did, CPA minds think alike.

I like having the guaranteed value at the end, I got out of my 2006 4Runner lease early, and because of how they hold their value I basically broke even. The G37x wouldn't have been a good one to get out of early but it was only 18 months so it really wasn't a problem and like @nyccarguy and his 328xi, I just hand the keys over in a couple of weeks, pay the $300 disposition fee and walk away. The price you pay for convenience.

I have a 39 month lease on the Q50, a long time for me but I seem to like this car enough to keep it for the entire term. Maybe.

nyccarguy

@jpp5892

I see you put a pic of your Q50 in your profile:) Very handsome car! Those are the 18" wheels?

fintail

Wow, what a mess. I think I've heard of that happening before, don't recall if it was a similar car. At least the sunroof didn't open!

@nyccarguy said:
So I guess my BMW was hot last night under it's blanket of snow & decided to open its windows to cool off. Now I know what you are all thinking: "you must have hit the button while the key fob was in your pocket Bradd!" We have a key dish, so there goes that theory. All 4 windows were open 3/4 of the way down and the sunroof was closed. Needless to say I was not happy when I went outside @ 5:55 this AM to start up my car and clean it off. Pic to follow.

stever

Here's one - Lexus RX 300 from a few years back. And another one on a Honda. Seems like there were some others posted that people couldn't blame on sitting on the fob.

breld

@abacomike said:

To put this all into perspective, JUST ENJOY YOUR NEW VW and forget about everything else. When you are ready to trade into something else, you'll work things out - you always do!!!

Now that's some great advice!

breld

@rayainsw

Having also owned a 335 and a GTI, I agree with what you're saying, primarily with the need to be careful with the throttle at low speeds. I remember that clearly from my ownership experience - it's something I got used to and was aware of, but the 335 (AWD in my case) does provide a nice contrast.

I guess that's a little difference going from a GTI to a 335, as opposed to the reverse order.

breld

@au1994 said:
So...how much for the 330i?

I have it listed a bit high right now on craigslist, at $13k - I'd be pretty happy if someone offers something in the $11k's.

The 'vert may not have as much appeal as a coupe or sedan, but with the low miles (73k), it's a nice way to get into an E46.

Since the idea of the Passat is to be my main commuting car, and to have the BMW as a fun car, I do still kinda like the idea of a convertible. But, I'd want it to be a stick. As one of many options floating through my head, I am considering selling both BMWs and replacing them with a stickshift convertible - maybe even an E90 with the retractable hardtop.

breld

@jpp5862 said:
breld

Congrats on the new punch! I've done a lot of the same analysis on leasing vs. buying and came to the same conclusions you did, CPA minds think alike.

Oh good! I'm glad I'm not crazy - maybe a little OCD, but not crazy.

au1994

@breld said:

Thanks. I found it on Craigs. How do we PM each other now? and do you have any interior pics? I might be kinda interested! The E46 is a heck of a platform!

roadburner

@rayainsw Nice writeup! I went through a love-hate-love relationship with my Mazdaspeed 3; my "hate" was caused by the several problems I encountered prior to 60,000 miles. Once the car settled down I began to appreciate it again. The available torque is just amazing; the Mazdaspeed's in-gear acceleration times better some cars with considerably more horsepower. Handling is decent and I expect it to be even more fun when I add the Koni FSD struts/shocks in the near future.

Like you, I find the M235i interesting, but I want to see if its steering will have enough feedback to make it acceptable. In any event, the new 2er does look like it will pack enough bhp to amuse me; while the Mazda isn't the fastest car out there, I'm not sure I want to make a step backward with respect to hp/torque- one reason I am still a bit hesitant about nabbing an Abarth or Fiesta ST.

I am also interested in the new GTI; more power and a mechanical LSD sound real good to me.
Decisions, decisions...

rayainsw

'I am also interested in the new GTI; more power and a mechanical LSD sound real good to me. '

And also to me.
I do not expect to make a purchase decision
until I have driven a new GTI.

• Ray

And possibly an Audi S3.....

breld

@au1994 said:
Thanks. I found it on Craigs. How do we PM each other now? and do you have any interior pics? I might be kinda interested! The E46 is a heck of a platform!

Well, I clicked on your username and it took me to a place where I could add a comment. I think that's essentially a PM. Hopefully that worked, but in any case, this was my message - right now I don't have any interior pics, and the car's parked at my work garage, so I couldn't get to it until next week when I return to the office. But I'd be happy to do it then!

crkyolfrt

@breld said:
left a comment

>

I think they call that a "wall". Is it Facebook we can blame for such a ridiculous term??

Anyway, I think if you want to PM someone, go to their profile on at the end of their description, to the right and above a bit you will see a "Message" icon.

I assume clicking on that, takes you to a page that lets you PM. Messages on the Wall, are not private.

jpp75

@nyccarguy said:
jpp5892

I see you put a pic of your Q50 in your profile:) Very handsome car! Those are the 18" wheels?

Thanks! They're 17" wheels, the 19" come with the "S" model but I didn't get that one.

isellhondas

@nyccarguy said:
So I guess my BMW was hot last night under it's blanket of snow & decided to open its

windows to cool off. Now I know what you are all thinking: "you must have hit the button while the key fob was in your pocket Bradd!" We have a key dish, so there goes that theory. All 4 windows were open 3/4 of the way down and the sunroof was closed. Needless to say I was not happy when I went outside @ 5:55 this AM to start up my car and clean it off. Pic to follow.

Typical European car!

A buddy's Mercedes decided one rainy night to open it's own sunroof! What a MESS!

tifighter

Hope you guys in the NE are staying warm; it sounds crazy over there!

jayrider

Breld ---- Whatever happens over the next 42 months -- please keep us informed. Anyone care to guess when the VW bloom will be off the rose ? I'll be 71 closing in on 72 years old when the lease is up. I would have preferred a 24 month lease -- enjoy !!!

stickguy

42 months to me just sounds wrong. Like a lifetime compared to 36, and yes I realize it is only 6 months different!

I also believe that you should not lease out of warranty. Defeats part of the purpose.

still not sure I can bring myself to do it though (lease) when I get my next wheels. Especially if my situation (WFH) is the same. Hopefully my parents decide to spend less time incapacitated so I don't have to make the 120 each way trip every week again. I am still thinking I will just upgrade to a more interesting used car for me when I make the move.

abacomike

DIGGING OUT REMINDS ME OF...

I moved to Chicago from New York in January, 1967 to pursue my Masters Degree. I believe I was driving a 1966 blue Pontiac Grand Prix. It was a 1-1/2 day drive across I-80 and I remember it was a mild 65 degrees when I arrived in Chicago. Quite warm for that time of year, but it was just an omen of bad things to come.

My friends invited me to stay at their apartment until I found a place of my own. They lived on the near North Side of the city. I remember I parked my car about a block or so from their place and we all went out drinking to celebrate my arrival in the Windy City (that's one thing the near north side is known for - lots of bars).

I remember when we were walking back to their place, it began to snow. When we awakened the next morning at around 11:00 AM, the entire city had been blasted by a blizzard dumping 28" of snow everywhere. We weren't able to leave their apartment for 2 days it was so bad, and they lived on one of those narrow side streets just off a main drag.

On the third day, we went out looking for my car. After the snowplows cleaned the main streets, they started trying to clear secondary streets . They had not yet begun to clear side streets. We tried for 4 hours to try to find my car, but to no avail. We went out the next day, and again could not find my car. You have to imagine the streets and how high the drifts were. Finally, 4 days later, we found my royal blue Pontiac, but still buried. We got the door open and cleared the exhausts, and got the car started.

I was not able to drive my car out of its parking space until one full week after the blizzard. It was the worst storm I had ever experienced. And the freezing cold and the gale force winds cut right through me. How I was able to tolerate 22 Midwest winters in Chicago I'll never know, but that first week in Chicago was something I'll never ever forget.

Good luck all you guys and gals who just went through that nor'easter. Be careful out there.

xwesx

Wow; I've been out of it for a while! Take my eyes of this discussion for a couple weeks and -BOOM!- breld has another car!

Am I terribly late on the guess front? I'm going to go with 27 for 2014.

stickguy

@xwesx said:
Wow; I've been out of it for a while! Take my eyes of this discussion for a couple weeks and -BOOM!- breld has another car!

Am I terribly late on the guess front? I'm going to go with 27 for 2014.

I am thinking my 30 might be light, since we are now running at roughly a 240 punch pace (well, 2 cars in 3 days is that, right?)

kyfdx

Just to sum up the GTI situation... 320 HP > 200 HP ..

graphicguy

I guess I have to check in here after being over in Stories from the Sales Front Lines.

Long and short of it.....'13 Audi S4 had turned into a problem child. Quattro would bind up, MMI wouldn't work, stereo decided on its own what it would and wouldn't play. After probably 6-7 total weeks at Audi dealership, Audi finally bought it back as a lemon.

Audi check in hand, I went shopping over the holidays. Test drove Mercedes E350 4matic (probably could have bought one nicely equipped for around $50K and change), CLA (nicely equipped, mid-high $30K, and a C300 4matic (well equipped for around mid-$40s).

BMW X1 35ix (2013....totally loaded...probably could have bought it somewhere in the low $40s), 328ix and 335ix (MSRP priced high $40s to high $50s). 428ix and 435ix (well equipped MSRP low $50s to just over $60K).

Infiniti Q50 (Loaded...about $50K...maybe mid $40K range after negotiation), G37x (uber loaded about $38K-$39K after negotiation).

Acura RLX Tech...big car...nice car....handled really well for such a big car...all the goodies, quiet, quick, steering a bit numb, high quality build and materials throughout. MSRP mid $50s. Could have bought one for $10K off for about mid $40s. That car is a luxury steal at that price.

The one I bought, a '14 Acura TL SH AWD Advance. Uber loaded. MSRP around $46.4K Invoice was about $43.8K. I bought mine for a shade under $40K. I got the the trunk money from the dealership. They sold it right about true dealer net, maybe a hair under, just to move another unit by the end of the year.

It's black over black.

So, I've checked in.

stickguy

This winter weather nonsense (snow, ice and cold) is really getting on my nerves. I had pretty much given up on my plan to relocate south (the wife never did buy into that...) but after the last month or so of repeated crappy weather, I am also taking the move north (NH) option off the table! Though that leaves me stuck in Jersey, so pretty sure that qualifies as a lose-lose-lose.

the biggest annoyance at the moment? I was planning to go out car looking with my son today to see back-back-back the different options he is considering. But with lots covered in snow and ice, may not be a good day for that. Probably OK for sliding around and visiting showrooms, but probably not for a lot of test drives.

breld

Congrats gg on the TL. Seems like a far cry from the S4, but after all those problems with the Audi, a proven Acura may be just the thing!

Stick - that's too bad. I feel for you having a legitimate car shopping day thwarted by weather!

breld

Okay - hope I'm not killing any or all of you with my leasing thoughts, but since many of you are stuck inside due to weather anyway...

Again, because I like the numbers and want to truly understand the leasing concept, I was reading through the lease agreement this morning, and worked out some amortization schedules to wrap my head around it and "prove out" the numbers.

So, I'm really focusing on the buyout of the lease, since I think that's the easiest way to compare it to a purchase. One thing I noticed, different than what's been discussed here previously, is that you're not locked into paying the entire rent charge (interest essentially) if you sell/payoff early. That amount simply amortizes over the term of the lease, just like a car loan.

Meaning, the buyout is equal to the beginning capitalized cost, adding the rent charge for the month, and reduced by the base payment (before tax). The rent charge is equal to the beginning cap cost times the "effective" interest rate (the rate that would cause the cap cost to be reduced to the residual value at the end of the term).

Bored yet?

So, at the end of the day, I could (not that I would) purchase the car right now from VW Credit for $21,006 (my beginning cap cost). There's no term fee for purchasing the car early, and I wouldn't pay any of the rent charge (interest), which will accrue over the term. Or, do the same any time over the term, with the payoff simply equal to the amortized balance of that cap cost. The best price I got on a traditional purchase of the same vehicle was $23,200. Now, since the effective rate on my lease is about 1.24%, probably wouldn't make sense to finance the buyout. But I could make "extra" payments on the lease and essentially finance the car purchase under the lease.

Bottom line? I think leasing and financing a NEW car works essentially the same. They're both methods of financing, but the financing terms themselves (in particular, the interest rate) are not transparent in a lease, so it can be more difficult to evaluate. And obviously, you're only financing a portion of the cost of the car in a lease.

I used to buy into the argument that you're only "renting" a car under a lease and have nothing to show for it at the end. But the economics are the same as financing. If you pay more in monthly payments on a traditional car loan (which you would), of course the obligation amortizes quicker and you have some equity at the end. But you paid for it. Either way you pay for the depreciation on a new car - on a lease, it's just that's all you're paying.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying leasing is THE way to go. I just think it's a reasonable alternative to take advantage of lease program incentives.

Okay - thanks for listening to my musings. Now I need to kill more time before the NFL playoffs start.

graphicguy

@breld said:
Congrats gg on the TL. Seems like a far cry from the S4, but after all those problems with the Audi, a proven Acura may be just the thing!

Stick - that's too bad. I feel for you having a legitimate car shopping day thwarted by weather!

Thanks breed. Actually, the TL SH AWD and the S4 are more similar than different. Nice having a car that just "works" the way it's supposed to (so far).

graphicguy

breld....sorry about the misspelling. Still not quite used to the new forums operation.

Here's what I meant to say....

"Thanks breld. Actually, the TL SH AWD and the S4 are more similar than different. Nice having a car that just "works" the way it's supposed to (so far)."

breld

That's true - AWD sedans. The S4 is just so iconic, but I suppose that doesn't matter much if you don't get to actually drive it.

Glad things worked out as far as Audi buying it back.

jayrider

Breld -- Bottom line is that you got a good car for a super low monthly payment with no out of pocket expense. If you like the way it drives and the interior, sounds like a winner in a lot of ways. How things turn out whenever you part company is of little consequence from a financial standpoint. Whatever the good or bad will be revealed in good time. We all benefit by having a front row seat to your first leasing experience.

28firefighter

Congrats, GG. I had a sneaking suspicion you would end up back in the Acura. Enjoy!