Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

fintail

It does matter a lot, as suppliers vary by geography, and not all are of equal quality. Local work ethic and managerial aptitude can also be a factor. The Vance, Alabama factory had a lot of teething issues early on, remember. It has nothing to do with the crazy and inappropriate red herring of the ethic background of those on the assembly line.

And finally, Euro cars sold in some degree because of the exotic idea of having a car from far away. Of course, these days, where money and knowledge are often not positively correlated, I suspect many drivers don't even know where the car was built.

houdini1

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh it's a V-6, not a 4. I don't see how Alabama has anything to do with it. It's how the factory is managed. If you go to Germany you'll find a lot of assembly workers who are not Germans. So I could point to someone's new Benz and say "your car was built by Turks" and I wouldn't be far wrong.

Hmmm...stable work force and suppliers could be the reason why many high end Japan built cars are so consistently reliable.

abacomike

fintail said:

And in terms of out the door price vs MSRP, the cars can be equal. A 57K C is probably close to a 64K E, at least here. The E is bigger and kind of mature, but it is also a known entity, where the C is new, and although not a horrible mess, does have a few quirks being reported on the forums. And I have to say, paying 55K for a 4cyl car built in Alabama is a little tough for me to handle.

Yeah, it's about a 10K spread right now between the C and the E Types. Having looked them all over, I'd say both cars are, in their own way, worth about that difference in price. There's really no startling difference between the C and E. He often drives to San Francisco, and rarely carries backseat passengers, so the smaller size appealed to him.

I wonder how long it is going to be before Mercedes-Benz starts producing the E Class in Alabama as well.  The E Class is scheduled for a complete redesign for the 2017 model year which might be an opportune time for the expansion of Alabama plant to include the E Class.

But there are those who feel the E Class will continue to be built in Germany because of the wide-scale use of the E in Europe.  Should be interesting in the next 18 months.

fintail

I believe volume production of the E will remain at Sindelfingen. China already has its own plant, along with other areas, so the supply chain shouldn't experience much stress. The German plant is a gigantic monolith and can handle the volume for Europe and NA. That's a model that cannot afford to have massive quality hiccups, it's bread and butter.

I've read the W213 will have an S-class large screen ICE setup instead of the ipad screen style.

abacomike

fintail said:

I believe volume production of the E will remain at Sindelfingen. China already has its own plant, along with other areas, so the supply chain shouldn't experience much stress. The German plant is a gigantic monolith and can handle the volume for Europe and NA. That's a model that cannot afford to have massive quality hiccups, it's bread and butter. I've read the W213 will have an S-class large screen ICE setup instead of the ipad screen style.

I don't know many details at this point other than the redesign is going to be quite extensive and it is supposed to resemble the S Class in stance and sheet metal.  I suspect there will be some leaks of the redesign in the next 12 months.  What I've seen thus far shows the resemblance to the S Class.  It is supposed to be a longer wheelbase than current and increased use of the 3.0 L engine upping its horsepower. I also heard there may be a move to an online 6 twin turbo.  All rumors right now.

nyccarguy

This AM son #1 has 7:00 am hockey practice. Usually another parent takes him, but I figure it is snowing & I'll drop him off, then head to work. The Subaru impressed on the roads that hadn't been plowed yet. Plus it was a lot of fun driving like a hooligan in the empty unplowed parking lot;). Wife calls me at work around 8:15. "My truck won't start." She calls AAA, they come & give her a jump within a half hour. The AAA guy tells her: "your battery is shot. I woudn't turn the car off if I were you."

So I figure I'll pick up a battery on my way home & put it in. I start calling around & looking at dealer websites...

Honda of Westport (where we have serviced the Pilot regularly): $185 for the battery

Greenwich Honda (where we bought the Pilot): $134.95 for battery including installation

Local Goodyear store (where I've bought tires & had the Pilot serviced): $129 for an interstate battery

Honda of New Rochelle: $119.95 for a genuine Honda battery installed. DONE!

xwesx

Speaking of batteries.....

I noticed that my car was a little sluggish to crank a few times this week, so I figured I drop the charger on it over night. I checked the voltage when I arrived home: 12.4 Nothing terrible, but it could probably use to be topped off. Out of curiosity, I figured I would check the Forester's charge as well: 11.99. WTH?! Wow! I'm surprised that thing was even starting! I charged it up over night instead, then checked it a day later: 13.04.

Hmm. I better keep an eye on that one.

Mr_Shiftright

Possibly true that, although I think it's more about the Japanese cars being properly engineered for reliability. Whatever Japan does with 15 parts, the Germans need 45. Suppliers are certainly important, but I don't see that as something the worforce is responsible for. You can install lousy parts in Japan or Alabama. Those defective airbags, for instance, weren't an automaker's assembly problem.

houdini1 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh it's a V-6, not a
5. I don't see how Alabama has anything to do with it. It's how the factory is managed. If you go to Germany you'll find a lot of assembly workers who are not Germans. So I could point to someone's new Benz and say "your car was built by Turks" and I wouldn't be far wrong.

Hmmm...stable work force and suppliers could be the reason why many high end Japan built cars are so consistently reliable.

rayainsw

My Dodge was built in Canada.
Does that make it an "Import" ?
- Ray
Assembly quality seems quite good, so far.......

fintail

Yep, MB is going through the "sausages of different lengths" ideal used by Audi and now BMW. I don't know if I like it, E has always been a little different from an S, and needs to keep it up. It needs a distinctive element, like the quad headlights it had for about 20 years, which MB now seems happy to throw away. I guess I am a traditionalist.

Inside, the facelift W212 like you and I drive has some W221 S-class design DNA. I think that will continue with the new car, and it will have a very S-class like dash. I just hope the US market still gets good lease deals.

abacomike said:

I don't know many details at this point other than the redesign is going to be quite extensive and it is supposed to resemble the S Class in stance and sheet metal.  I suspect there will be some leaks of the redesign in the next 12 months.  What I've seen thus far shows the resemblance to the S Class.  It is supposed to be a longer wheelbase than current and increased use of the 3.0 L engine upping its horsepower. I also heard there may be a move to an online 6 twin turbo.  All rumors right now.

fintail

The homogeneity there probably doesn't hurt. Also, the Japanese don't have a fetish for complexity like Shifty mentions (why use 5 moving parts when 50 will do?) and even the highline Japanese cars seldom beta-test pioneering technology like MB especially has done over the years. Complex new tech tends to break a lot. Add goofy things like greenie decomposable wiring and insufficient rustproofing on some models to the quirky tech, and you get to know your mechanic more than a Lexus driver.

houdini1 said:

Hmmm...stable work force and suppliers could be the reason why many high end Japan built cars are so consistently reliable.

stever

rayainsw said:

My Dodge was built in Canada.
Does that make it an "Import" ?

Well, is a Mercedes made in Alabama an "import"?

Glad to hear your Italian car is doing okay.

graphicguy

Really good points by everyone. This was back in the early 90s, but I was working on a committee to choose a more sophisticated CAD program (we were using a very rudimentary drafting program and wanted to move to a sophisticated 3D design and manufacturing program).

Talk about high pressured sales peolpe, deal with CAD sales people sometime.

Anyway, we had budgeted about $500K for this purchase and had 3 CAD companies come in for lengthy demos using parts we made. One of the most aggressive of these companies even flew in their President and Chief Technology Officer (CTO) for the presentation.

The CTO was particularly arrogant, telling us that our parts were way over engineered (probably because their software failed miserably in desiging a part with complex surfaces.....similar to a car bosy panel).

He relayed a story telling us how he siad the same thing to A certain European luxury car maker (Mercedes).

We did not buy their software, and the President of the CAD company made it a point to call me and tell me how stupid our committee was after we told them they did not make the cut. Nice!

This discussion reminds me of that time.

rayainsw

My current 'Italian car' is [ so far ] way more
reliable than my first = a 1969 Fiat Sport Coupe.
Tiny DOHC 4-cyl.and a 5-speed manual trans.
- Ray
Did not have that one long...

Sandman6472

Have an SD card slot thing in my glove compartment, no c d player at all. What is the SD thing and how do I use it? Funny, the wife's A3 has a cd player and they are really very similar vehicles, both new for 2015. Just don't know what it's for or how to use it for that matter.
Hit 1500 miles yesterday and can't say enough good things about my Golf. That shaking/vibration is still there a bit but after riding in another one, it seems to be normal. The tire specialist did call me on Friday afternoon and I happened to be on the expressway home and I told him it still is shaking and said I still think it isn't right. Asked him if they force balanced these new wheels/tires and he said no, since they came off a brand new Jetta. I suggested they do it just to see what happens but I was met with a "no" basically. I will have to try having someone sit in that seat while driving in the 72 to 85 mph zone and see if they feel anything. I drive alone most of the time so haven't been able to test this theory yet. Maybe once these new tires have worn in a bit, the shaking/vibration will go away...we'll see how it goes. Still liking the new alloy design though I see a lot of different VW alloys out there, one nicer than the next!

The Sandman

stever

It's just a memory "stick". I have one in my Garmin to hold more maps and sometimes I'll stick music on one to play on the laptop. And there's one in my camera. USBs are a bit easier for me to handle if you are moving MP3s back and forth to the car.

stickguy

sandy, you may have bled the VW turnip dry. at this point, if it is minor, probably have to live with it, or bite the bullet and find the best local tire place, and pay them to RFB the tires to make sure they are prefect. that would also ID if there was a bad wheel. at least that way, you can isolate any remaining issue to be a "feature" of the car.

breld

Over the weekend, I was driving along a highway here with my wife in the 5, and all of a sudden I was confronted with the largest pothole ever, right in my track. There was only a split second to do anything, but with traffic around I chose not to make any attempt to swerve around it and BAM!

The tire pressure warning came on immediately, and we could feel a vibration come on right away.

Just a mile or so up from the pothole, there was another car pulled over, changing their tire. Darn Colorado snow-damaged highways!

Fortunately, there was a Discount Tire a few miles away, so we made our way there at low speeds. The tire had a full-on tear along the sidewall from the impact. The shop didn't have the exact tire in stock, so I decided to go ahead and replace all four. So that was an expensive pothole encounter!

I have to say, as much as I dislike the run-flats that BMW puts on all their vehicles due to their higher cost and harsher ride, it was nice to have the ability to make it to the tire shop after such an experience.

jpp75

breld said:

Over the weekend, I was driving along a highway here with my wife in the 5, and all of a sudden I was confronted with the largest pothole ever, right in my track. There was only a split second to do anything, but with traffic around I chose not to make any attempt to swerve around it and BAM!

The tire pressure warning came on immediately, and we could feel a vibration come on right away.

Just a mile or so up from the pothole, there was another car pulled over, changing their tire. Darn Colorado snow-damaged highways!

Fortunately, there was a Discount Tire a few miles away, so we made our way there at low speeds. The tire had a full-on tear along the sidewall from the impact. The shop didn't have the exact tire in stock, so I decided to go ahead and replace all four. So that was an expensive pothole encounter!

I have to say, as much as I dislike the run-flats that BMW puts on all their vehicles due to their higher cost and harsher ride, it was nice to have the ability to make it to the tire shop after such an experience.

I had a similar experience with the Q50 in December except I hit a curb swerving to miss a deer. My only concern is when traveling if I'm in the middle of nowhere you could be looking at a tow if you're not within 50 miles of a good tire shop. Plus mine happened at night so the dealer was closed, if I had a spare I could have just put that on and gone in the next day.

roadburner

Several weeks ago I whacked a curb really good with the RF tire, which developed a slow leak.I took it to my tire shop and they dismounted and inspected the tire and cleaned the wheel bead sealing surface. Problem solved. I also asked for an alignment and said that I'd wait on it. The tech came back after 35 minutes or so and asked me what problem I was having with the car and I said none- I just wanted to make certain that I hadn't tweaked something. He then told me everything checked out fine. When I went up to the front desk to pay the answer was "No charge- it didn't need anything." That Mazda suspension must be pretty stout...

imidazol97

breld said:

There was only a split second to do anything, but with traffic around I chose not to make any attempt to swerve around it and BAM!

In Ohio, you can sue the State to make a claim for damage from potholes. I forget what percent are successful. There is no method for filing a claim with the DOT without filing the suit. I believe they don't actually go into court.

I hit a pothole on I75 a few years back. My only damage was needing an alignment due to the impact. Tire and wheel were fine. For $59.95 I didn't think it was worth going through the process.

xwesx

An alignment for $60. Wow.

corvette

That seems to be about the going rate here, although I've found quality is hit and miss.

kyfdx

imidazol97 said:

breld said:

There was only a split second to do anything, but with traffic around I chose not to make any attempt to swerve around it and BAM!

In Ohio, you can sue the State to make a claim for damage from potholes. I forget what percent are successful. There is no method for filing a claim with the DOT without filing the suit. I believe they don't actually go into court.

I hit a pothole on I75 a few years back. My only damage was needing an alignment due to the impact. Tire and wheel were fine. For $59.95 I didn't think it was worth going through the process.

Uh oh... Anything you want to tell us about your favorite team?

Mr_Shiftright

Costs $89 for an alignment here in California if you want something competent and accurate.

stickguy

hey shifty, how is the new truck doing? Get the repairs done?

Clint

Depreciation is an accounting concept rather than cash value.

Depreciation attempts to allocate the cost of an item over an estimated useful life. There are many methods including straight line depreciation or double declining balance depreciation. Depreciation is generally calculated as the cost of the asset less the estimated residual value divided by the estimated useful life of the vehicle. Depreciation is used for business accounting and tax purposes.

Example, for a $36,000 vehicle sale price with a useful life of six years and a residual value of $6,000, the annual depreciation would be $5,000. Therefore, after one year the depreciated value of the vehicle would be $31,000, after two years the value would be $26,000, etc.

Cash value is what the asset, vehicle in this case, can be sold for at any given time. Of course, there are various cash values which one can assign to the vehicle at a given time. For a vehicle those would include retail sale value, private party sale value, and trade in value.

The cash value would likely be much different than the depreciated value of an asset at any given time.

Unless a person is using a vehicle for business purposes, depreciation is not really important to the owner of the vehicle. Cash value is the important criteria.

rayainsw

Has Edmunds given up on actual [ instrumented ] road tests?
Or am I just not looking in the right place[s] ?
- Ray
I do see where Edmunds took a hammer to a new F150 ...

stever

@rayainsw - Look for a link at the top of a Road Test review that says "View Road Test Specs".

For example there's a 2015 Chevy Corvette Z06 Road Test live today. At the top of the review text is a link to the specs.

imidazol97

xwesx said:

An alignment for $60. Wow.

Buick dealer. Must have been a special on one of the cards they would send out every
couple of months.

roadburner

rayainsw said:

Has Edmunds given up on actual [ instrumented ] road tests?
Or am I just not looking in the right place[s] ?
- Ray
I do see where Edmunds took a hammer to a new F150 ...

There's a test of the 2015 Charger R/T at Motorweek.org.

ab348

rayainsw said:

I do see where Edmunds took a hammer to a new F150 ...

I saw that too. Interesting non-conclusion. They imply that repairs to the aluminum would be twice as expensive than steel, but they didn't pay twice as much. Or maybe they did. It is very confusing. Is Edmunds turning into Consumer Reports now?

rayainsw

I saw the Motorweek review - and did send my daughter
the link to the video on their site.
Thanks,
- Ray
Suspicious of their acceleration numbers.....

Mr_Shiftright

Good, Stick, thanks for askin'. I've got the front end pretty squared away---steers real nice now. I haven't addressed the right side front axle boot yet. Got the parts to fix the ABS sensor in the differential and the left front door actuator but haven't tackled them yet. Tedious jobs.

The serpentine belt is done--it looked a little old to me, so out it came.

Got the front seats repadded, driver's side only recovered---all the springs were loose inside. What a difference! Had a local guy help me so $200 bucks for the whole deal. Not bad for a substantial increase in cosmetics and comfort.

Still haven't figured out how to adjust the headlights on a 1998 Dodge Dakota. How hard can this be?

What's left? Valve cover gaskets and oil pan gasket, and a newer radio with an MP3 and USB port, and wer'e just about done.

Yeah, it's a lot of work to put into an old truck, but like my Dad used to say "Now you know what you got".

stickguy said:

hey shifty, how is the new truck doing? Get the repairs done?

roadburner

xwesx said:

An alignment for $60. Wow.

It was about twice that to have the X3 aligned at my BMW dealer. After what I paid for a set of the new Michelin Premier A/S tires I wanted to make everything was spot on. As usual, the Germans don't make it easy; they specify an 150 lb weight in each front seat, 150 lb in the center of the rear seat, and 46 lb in the trunk prior to alignment. It was a good thing I had the alignment checked- my advisor showed me the before and after spec sheet; out of over 10 measurements it was initially only in spec on two...

breld

Got my latest issue of Motor Trend yesterday. They had one of their "Big Tests" comparing minivans. The Sedona edged out the Odyssey for #1. Yea! Good for Kia.

qbrozen

that's pretty shocking. Never thought a mag would pick anything over the Odyssey.

xwesx

roadburner said:

It was about twice that to have the X3 aligned at my BMW dealer. After what I paid for a set of the new Michelin Premier A/S tires I wanted to make everything was spot on. As usual, the Germans don't make it easy; they specify an 150 lb weight in each front seat, 150 lb in the center of the rear seat, and 46 lb in the trunk prior to alignment. It was a good thing I had the alignment checked- my advisor showed me the before and after spec sheet; out of over 10 measurements it was initially only in spec on two...

That's the same cost as for me to have my Escort aligned a few years ago. I think I paid $180 to have the Forester's alignment ("all wheel," they say) done last summer after I installed the new springs and struts.

Mr_Shiftright

AWD can be trickier. Sometimes you need special tools for some cars as well.

js06gv

breld said:

Got my latest issue of Motor Trend yesterday. They had one of their "Big Tests" comparing minivans. The Sedona edged out the Odyssey for #1. Yea! Good for Kia.

Got mine yesterday too and thought of you immediately when I read it. Kia is really starting to surprise people these days, which is great for Kia owners.

I always try to guess how those comparos will come out before cutting to the results page. I was only off by one in this test, as I had the Chrysler 4th and the Nissan 5th. Knowing those are the oldest designs, I figured MT would have them at the back of the pack.

stickguy

I too read that article and thought if breld. Sounds like a nice vehicle.

stickguy

The other comparison I read was the mini CUV one. The trax, cx3, HRV, jeep renegade and its fiat kin.

I have decided I should have gotten one if these. I just like the size and function. Next time for sure! Or maybe a golf.

The Mazda sounds like a real winner.

breld

js06gv said:

breld said:

Got my latest issue of Motor Trend yesterday. They had one of their "Big Tests" comparing minivans. The Sedona edged out the Odyssey for #1. Yea! Good for Kia.

I always try to guess how those comparos will come out before cutting to the results page. I was only off by one in this test, as I had the Chrysler 4th and the Nissan 5th. Knowing those are the oldest designs, I figured MT would have them at the back of the pack.

I do that same thing!

Sandman6472

Ditto, read the new Motor Trend in the "library" this afternoon...also signed up for another 3 years. Get that and Car & Driver now as I gave up Road and Track a few years back. I guess I could get by with only one of them, I like the writing style of both plus the pics so figure what the heck. Other half just writes the check and no longer asks why I need both!

The Sandman

stickguy

just 2? I still get all 4 of the big monthlies. CD, Automobile, MT and RT. They all have a different style. Plus, cars! It is cheap enough of a hobby. I just extend when the cheap offers come, so it is always less than $10/year for each. So less than a buck a month each. I think we can handle that.

roadburner

My wife subscribes to several magazines as well, but here is my car/bike subscription list:

Automobile
Autoweek
BMW Car
Car and Driver
Cycle World
Grassroots Motorsports
Motorcycle Classics
Road and Track
Thoroughbred and Classic Cars

If a particular issue lights my fire I'll pick up:

Bike Magazine
CAR
Classic Bike
EVO
Jp Magazine
Muscle Machines
Performance Bikes
Performance BMW
Practical Sportbikes
RACER
Sports and Exotic Car
Top Gear

fintail

CAR was probably the best car magazine in the world, for their honesty. The rear section of the magazine had a comprehensive stats area with short reviews. If a car was crap, they'd say it. They were like what TG is now, but less ostentatious.

When I was younger, I subscribed to many mags, but now I only get the MBUSA periodical. The internet does most of the work for me now, I guess. I buy a British magazine now and then, Classic & Sportscar, Thoroughbred and Classic Cars, Practical Classics, Mercedes Enthusiast. When I am lucky enough to go to Germany, I load up on magazines too - they have publications for every variety of car, truck, and bike.

roadburner

CAR magazines review section was called GBU(Good, Bad, and Ugly). They pulled no punches. With each car review they would list other cars to "Also consider." I remember one scathing short review of a Daewoo or similar piece of garbage. It ended with "Also consider: Walking."

js06gv

I've subscribed to C&D and Motor Trend for over 30 years and am nuts enough to have saved them all; have a collection of old file cabinets in my workspace in third garage. Road & Track and Automobile have never appealed to me as much, but another I really enjoy that I've subscribed to for about 10 years is Hemmings Muscle Machines. I also have subscribed to Truck Trend since it came out as a spinoff of MT.

rayainsw

I have subscribed to R&T since the mid-1960s.
And I have Yearbook issues back to the early 1960s.
I also have a copy of the very first issue I remember seeing on a news stand...
[ March 1965 - picture of a bright red 'Ghia-bodied Fiat 2300' ]

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rayainsw/media/0 misc/CoverMarch1965RoadandTrackmagazine20100217120038_00001_zps1e91b5f7.jpg.html?filters[user]=1000266&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

- Ray
Hoarder...