We just had some poor fellow in Sonoma County drive his Tesla off a cliff on Hwy 1. No one knows what happened, as the driver did not survive. They handle very well, but drive and feel "heavy" so they have a lot of push in the twisties. Maybe he just over-drove himself, dunno.
Trying to help a friend finally buy his new 2015 C-Class sedan. I was thinking of offering 10% under MSRP on this fully loaded car. MSRP is $58,250 (for a C class!) I checked the MSRP numbers and they are correct. What does the group think? Dealer should have no trouble selling this car to someone else, as the pipeline is still not full on this model.
Thanks for the feedback on the Accord - both GG and Q.
Q, I think your feeling on the "fun factor" of your Fit vs. your previous Accord is similar to how I feel about the Civic Si. For that matter, I've actually been eyeing a used 2015 Fit EX manual - someone must have not liked it and "returned" it after 2k miles. The Honda dealer is asking $17,400, which is only $1,000 off MSRP, but given how they're selling, and holding their value, that could be a cheap way to go to scratch that itch I have for a manual - let's say you could sell it after a year for $15-16k - that's be a pretty cheap ownership.
Trying to help a friend finally buy his new 2015 C-Class sedan. I was thinking of offering 10% under MSRP on this fully loaded car. MSRP is $58,250 (for a C class!) I checked the MSRP numbers and they are correct. What does the group think? Dealer should have no trouble selling this car to someone else, as the pipeline is still not full on this model.
Helping a friend to buy a car can be dangerous work. Be careful out there. Ask Mike for pricing info.
Used 2013 Accord Coupe EX-L V6 Manual - Impressive. Clutch and shifter feel is what you'd expect from Honda. Acceleration is impressive with the V6. Didn't get a chance to push it very much to get a feel for the handling, but it felt competent. Road noise and comfort is what you'd expect from an Accord, which is to say great. Rear seat room is good for a coupe. One nagging thing - the handle for the driver's side door was right where my elbow sits, so it made it somewhat uncomfortable.
New Civic Si - wanted to drive it back to back with the Accord as well as give it another shot after my last test drive. I was somewhat surprised that I found it to be more fun to drive than the Accord. Obviously not as quick, but the seating position, seats themselves, steering wheel - they all have a more purposeful (sporty) feel to them. But, not surprisingly, there's much more road noise on the highway, and more engine sound on acceleration (good and bad).
Can't say I eliminated one or the other - Accord certainly felt more grown-up and would be great for the highway cruising section of the commute. But Civic was more tossable and fun. $23k for the Accord, CPO from Honda with about 23k miles. Seems pretty good for an EX-L V6 Nav.
I would advise to get out there and really push it. That's where my manual V6 Accord failed miserably. The car felt pretty competent up to around 7 or 8 tenths. Beyond that, it was awful. Not a fun car. My Fit, with half the power, is immensely more entertaining than that Accord was.
Of course, to be fair, I doubt I push my cars as much as you do, Q. Not sure I have your courage or talent. So the "7 or 8 tenths" may be sufficient for me.
By the way, my salesperson yesterday at the Honda dealer was a really nice, knowledgeable, young Asian guy who races cars as a hobby. He said something about doing so for bmwcca, and that he has an F10 M5 that he has the "use of"?
While it seems there are many salespeople out there who can barely drive a stick at all, I was actually a little self-conscious with this guy - but he remarked on how well and quickly I found the "feel" of the manuals on the test drives. Not bad for not owning my own manual shifting car for a little while now! I still got it.
We just had some poor fellow in Sonoma County drive his Tesla off a cliff on Hwy 1. No one knows what happened, as the driver did not survive. They handle very well, but drive and feel "heavy" so they have a lot of push in the twisties. Maybe he just over-drove himself, dunno.
At the international launch of the F16 X6 a Tesla tried to keep up with the 445 hp twin turbo V8 xDrive50i that I was driving. The road had a lot of elevation changes and tight corners; I thought the Tesla would easily keep up, but I pulled on him pretty convincingly.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
At the international launch of the F16 X6 a Tesla tried to keep up with the 445 hp twin turbo V8 xDrive50i that I was driving. The road had a lot of elevation changes and tight corners; I thought the Tesla would easily keep up, but I pulled on him pretty convincingly.
I'd bet it wasn't the car's fault.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Trying to help a friend finally buy his new 2015 C-Class sedan. I was thinking of offering 10% under MSRP on this fully loaded car. MSRP is $58,250 (for a C class....yowza!) I checked the MSRP numbers and they are correct. What does the group think? Dealer should have no trouble selling this car to someone else, as the pipeline is still not full on this model.
WOW.....didn't know you could option up a C Class to that level. I played around with TrueCar a little bit. Looks like $250 over invoice is the best I could do...and...I'd have to drive to Chicago (5 hours from me) to do it. Looks like $55K is the number on a $58K C Class.
Around here, there are two Benz dealers, both owned by the same guy. So, not enough competition. I'd have to go to KY (about 40 miles away) to get something more competitive.
I know AMEX uses TrueCar for their numbers, as does USAA I believe. As you say, no trunk money I can find, either.
One offer? I'd roll in at $200 over invoice.
IF he wanted to play the game? Roll out $100 under invoice and start looking at every dealer within a 250 mile radius and play "dialing for dollars". Of course, no guarantees you'll hit the phone price once you walk in their door, but I'm betting someone will bite....after you burn up a tank of gas (maybe more) to get there.
Yep, you can definitely option a C class to $58K--you can even bust $60K. I was thinking of setting $54K as the bottom line target and then walking. But I fear my friend is not going to hold the line, in which case I'll just step back and let him cave. He really WANTS this car. Thanks for your input, much appreciated!
Quick note: New England Int'l Auto Show on Friday. Kinda subdued, nothing really revelatory to report. I do want an S Class Coupe, thank you.
For you warm weather folks: Went to the Pats/Ravens game with my son, temp at kickoff was 19 and when we left, 8. My last 4+ mile run was in 18 degree weather. What does that make me? Not bright...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Yep, you can definitely option a C class to $58K--you can even bust $60K. I was thinking of setting $54K as the bottom line target and then walking. But I fear my friend is not going to hold the line, in which case I'll just step back and let him cave. He really WANTS this car. Thanks for your input, much appreciated!
The new C400 is very expensive... and, even more so to lease.. Hopefully, he is sticking with the C300
C400 or C300? 10% off MSRP is a good offer, easily done on an E, but might take work with a nicely optioned C, which as you mentioned, still has some of the "new" halo around it.
And indeed, they can be optioned up like that - loaded C400 can pass 62K without a lot of work. Loaded 3ers are in that range, too. After years of negligible price inflation on the entry models, prices have ballooned, as there are now lower models to take their place.
And like kyfdx mentioned, lease rates aren't too hot, at least not when I looked. A more expensive E was significantly less per month, and IMO is a better deal, even if it's the old timer in the lineup.
Trying to help a friend finally buy his new 2015 C-Class sedan. I was thinking of offering 10% under MSRP on this fully loaded car. MSRP is $58,250 (for a C class!) I checked the MSRP numbers and they are correct. What does the group think? Dealer should have no trouble selling this car to someone else, as the pipeline is still not full on this model.
Even the new C300 is no bargain. I looked at one and liked it, but the pricing was just not competitive with the ATS, plus less HP, and I liked the Cadillac interior better also, though the M-B was very nice. But the screen on the dash, as opposed to integrated into it, turned me off. Once I saw the pricing, I lost interest.
C400 or C300? 10% off MSRP is a good offer, easily done on an E, but might take work with a nicely optioned C, which as you mentioned, still has some of the "new" halo around it.
And indeed, they can be optioned up like that - loaded C400 can pass 62K without a lot of work. Loaded 3ers are in that range, too. After years of negligible price inflation on the entry models, prices have ballooned, as there are now lower models to take their place.
And like kyfdx mentioned, lease rates aren't too hot, at least not when I looked. A more expensive E was significantly less per month, and IMO is a better deal, even if it's the old timer in the lineup.
Trying to help a friend finally buy his new 2015 C-Class sedan. I was thinking of offering 10% under MSRP on this fully loaded car. MSRP is $58,250 (for a C class!) I checked the MSRP numbers and they are correct. What does the group think? Dealer should have no trouble selling this car to someone else, as the pipeline is still not full on this model.
If the friend doesn't mind the larger size of the E, I would definitely go that route. Looking at the pricing boards here and on a MB dedicated site, 10+% off is not difficult to achieve on an E and typically better lease rates too. Personally I like the looks of the E better but the new C is growing on me. I don't care for the "iPad" on the dash either and it is one of the things I am tired of on the 335i. When I first looked at it I thought "its not that bad" which I should have known was a bad sign for later down the road.
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
My point is... most people confuse cash flow with actual cost.
Yes.. it's less money each month to keep repairing an old car that is out of warranty vs. buying a newer car. But, that doesn't mean it is actually saving any money (it could be, but not necessarily).
Ah, well, it would be a rare care that doesn't. Using the inclusion of depreciation, and the fact that depreciation functions on a curve, the "payment years" portion of ownership is far and away the most expensive. For a typical $25,000 car, one would have to spend more than $4,000 a year in maintenance and repairs (sustained, not just an outlier year) for a new car to make financial sense. Of course, this is on dollars alone.
The intangible here is the reliability and peace of mind that goes along with that. Really, desires aside, that's really what sparks the "I need a new car" trigger.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
I think the E is still about the "right" size, well, it is bordering on being a small barge for a single driver, but you get comfort for that. The C does have more tech, and better seat features (thigh extender). The ipad screen is definitely polarizing - I spent 15 minutes in a C, I can just say you "get used to it" - it is ergonomically well-placed, but the aesthetics are questionable. Design wise, the E has aged very well, and the facelift isn't as disjointed as it seemed when new. I like most of the interior update, too.
I got more than 10% off my car, but it was towards the end of the year, as a current year model. Also from the forums I read, intense competition between California dealers can make for the best discounts in the country - people generally pay a little more everywhere else. That might help Shifty's friend too.
If the friend doesn't mind the larger size of the E, I would definitely go that route. Looking at the pricing boards here and on a MB dedicated site, 10+% off is not difficult to achieve on an E and typically better lease rates too. Personally I like the looks of the E better but the new C is growing on me. I don't care for the "iPad" on the dash either and it is one of the things I am tired of on the 335i. When I first looked at it I thought "its not that bad" which I should have known was a bad sign for later down the road.
Depreciation curve seems to be a function more of actual value than newness..
IMO, a $25K car depreciates at about the same rate, whether it is a 4 year old BMW or a brand-new Chevy..
That's just my anecdotal observation, though.. and, those might not be the best examples..
In some cases, that may very well be true from an actual cash value standpoint. Some cars do depreciate more rapidly than others.
Consider my Forester as an example (MSRP 25.8). Value-wise, it was worth (locally) about 23 six months after I bought it. After twelve months, 21. at 24 months, 19. And now, at 66 months, 14.*
So, it lost 11% of it's value in six months. In the next six month, "only" 9%. And, over the next year, it lost about 10% total. Then, over another 3.5 years, about 25%. So, not only is the percentage depreciation drop slowing somewhat over time, but the actual cash value of that percentage is also dropping. (E.g., 10% of 26,000 is a lot more than 10% of 14,000).
This general curve is pretty consistent for all cars (excluding collectibles), though timing means a lot, I'm sure, for actual sales such as in/out of warranty, private vs. trade vs. retail, etc.
*Values based on KBB used retail.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Depreciation curve seems to be a function more of actual value than newness..
IMO, a $25K car depreciates at about the same rate, whether it is a 4 year old BMW or a brand-new Chevy..
That's just my anecdotal observation, though.. and, those might not be the best examples..
In some cases, that may very well be true from an actual cash value standpoint. Some cars do depreciate more rapidly than others.
Consider my Forester as an example (MSRP 25.8). Value-wise, it was worth (locally) about 23 six months after I bought it. After twelve months, 21. at 24 months, 19. And now, at 66 months, 14.*
So, it lost 11% of it's value in six months. In the next six month, "only" 9%. And, over the next year, it lost about 10% total. Then, over another 3.5 years, about 25%. So, not only is the percentage depreciation drop slowing somewhat over time, but the actual cash value of that percentage is also dropping. (E.g., 10% of 26,000 is a lot more than 10% of 14,000).
Again, anecdotal, but this general curve is pretty consistent for all cars (excluding collectibles), though timing means a lot, I'm sure, for actual sales such as in/out of warranty, private vs. trade vs. retail, etc. Actual percentages and dollars obviously vary model to model, but they all exhibit this same slowing trend as a function of time and/or miles.
*Values based on KBB used retail.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Depreciation curve seems to be a function more of actual value than newness..
IMO, a $25K car depreciates at about the same rate, whether it is a 4 year old BMW or a brand-new Chevy..
That's just my anecdotal observation, though.. and, those might not be the best examples..
I was just recently running some numbers, comparing depreciation on three cars. A 2015 Honda CR-V, a left over new 2014 CR-V, and a Hyundai Genesis, 2012, V8, tech package, and only 12k miles on it. I used Edmunds to look up the trade in values for all 3 cars, only 3 years older and with 24k miles added to the mix.
All 3 of the above vehicles were selling in the range of $22k to $25k.
The leftover 2014 CR-V was going to cost me about $4,500 in depreciation, the 2015 CR-V came in about $5,500, and the Genesis was (hold on to your pants) $10,500.
I think if you want luxury, you're going to have to pay for it. One way or the other.
The 2012 E class near me I liked has 17k mikes on it. Super clean. Listed at $32k. MSRP was ~$62. Now I know it is not depreciating like that in the next 2 years! Maybe it is $17-18k 3 years from now with 50k mikes? Losing 5k per year on a car like that, under warranty, is not terrible.
No he wants the extra power and goodies. He hates 4 cylinders.
My E400 has the same engine as the C400 - an amazingly subtle powerhouse. I drove the C400 a few weeks ago - a loaded one that the sales manager at my dealership has. That C400 is some automobile. It's a bit too small for me, but for the average person, it is a magnificently well designed and nicely balanced vehicle.
The problem with the C Class vs. the E Class is that there is some nice trunk money available on the E, but not the C.
I think it's fair to say the general "depreciation curve" applies to most cars, with obvious adjustments for certain brands and specific cars. Of course, that's from a percentage standpoint, which is exactly why I won't buy a brand new luxury car.
My 535i for instance - had an original MSRP of about $65k - probably could have been purchased for very low $60k's. I bought it 3 years old and 23k miles later for $38k. I assume the depreciation on the car the next three years will not be nearly as much.
I do believe in most cases, the more expensive the car, the greater that initial hit is going to be. In my own example above - that's about 35% depreciation for those first three years. I think if you start with a more "reasonably priced" car, the depreciation will tend to be less (both from a percentage standpoint and gross value).
For instance, if you buy a nice Honda Accord for $27k, it will likely still be worth around $20k a few years later - around 26% depreciation. I think that has to do with the general affordability of such a car - $20k may not be much of a discount off new, but it's a reasonable cost for a good car. Whereas on a luxury car, it has to get to some realm of affordability for people to consider it - and to do so, it takes a proportionately bigger hit in depreciation.
The Honda Fit is another good example - the previous model was what, $16-17k on average? I see used ones with a healthy amount of miles on them listed for a mere $3k or so off that new price. 'Cause for $13k, it's still a lot of car for the money. CR-V is also crazy on the used market.
And to be fair, to measure "true" depreciation, I would say you should compare retail to retail. Comparing what you paid a dealer for a car to current trade, or even private party, value includes a component of loss separate from the actual decline in value.
Wow! Now I'm really rambling on! Can you tell I work with numbers all day in my job?
Wow! Now I'm really rambling on! Can you tell I work with numbers all day in my job?
LOL; indeed! Same here (and probably a lot of us), so I guess I'm in that choir, too.
As far as retail vs. others, I tend to look at retail only because I have no intent to sell. As such, retail value applies: The only way I'm getting rid of the Forester is if it gets hauled off in a stretcher (as it were). Ergo, insurance should be paying me based on used retail. Once you've sold it, you got what you got, and the spread applies.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
What do you know about the Cayenne S Hybrid? I see some leftover, brand new 2014s with some pretty hefty discounts off sticker. Do you think I would require any additional maintenance compared to a standard V6 Cayenne? My Mom truly loved her 2011 V6 Cayennne, so did my Dad. He just didn't like paying to keep it on the road. I actually suggested a year old CPO Cayenne Diesel. It would be perfect for her as the diesel would most likely be an ex-loaner with 10K or so miles, doesn't have any spark plugs (which was an expensive service), and get great mileage as she drives 25K per year.
But I was shot down. She told me no diesel & no used cars.
Edit - I see Porsche has discontinued both the base V6 & The Cayenne S Hybrid. Definitely don't want an orphan car this pricey. Depreciation will be insane. I'm sure all the leftover 2014s will become service loaners at some point. Looks like the Diesel is now the base model.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
My daughter is currently at Ferrari world, sending me pictures of the classics they have on display, and some of the new models. Mean kid, torturing me like that.
Yes, Porsche has discontinued the S Hybrid and introduced the plug-in S-E Hybrid. I only hope it's better than the Cayenne S Hybrid was, the latter, to my mind, being the very epitome of the overly-complex teutonic nightmare that gives German engineers the sense of pride they need while baffling the people who have to drive the things.
I think very highly of the Cayenne Diesel--I think if Mom had given it a chance and a long test drive, she might have changed her mind.
What do you know about the Cayenne S Hybrid? I see some leftover, brand new 2014s with some pretty hefty discounts off sticker. Do you think I would require any additional maintenance compared to a standard V6 Cayenne? My Mom truly loved her 2011 V6 Cayennne, so did my Dad. He just didn't like paying to keep it on the road. I actually suggested a year old CPO Cayenne Diesel. It would be perfect for her as the diesel would most likely be an ex-loaner with 10K or so miles, doesn't have any spark plugs (which was an expensive service), and get great mileage as she drives 25K per year.
But I was shot down. She told me no diesel & no used cars.
Edit - I see Porsche has discontinued both the base V6 & The Cayenne S Hybrid. Definitely don't want an orphan car this pricey. Depreciation will be insane. I'm sure all the leftover 2014s will become service loaners at some point. Looks like the Diesel is now the base model.
RE: "Shopping for a Friend" Update. Well, the MB dealer dug in at $54.9K, retreating to their bunkers and piling on the sand bags. They merely sniffed at the $52.5K offer and begged for mercy at $54K. They were very clean on all the fees however. There are simply no little doggy treats for any buyers of the new C class.
I personally would have walked at $54K, at least for a few days and a few calls to other dealers, but it's not my deal or my money (thankfully). I did work out some nice option packages for my friend though, getting him past the stage where German car makes dangle shiny objects in front of you while they hand you the pen to tick off the options list. We had to draw the line somewhere. I mean, no all automakers have the nerve to charge you extra based on the color you choose. Really? nickel and dime, nickel and dime.
Thanks shifty & houdini for that solid advice. I'm sure her issue isn't with driving it or the diesel clatter. Her main worry is that she won't be able to find a diesel station. Now I will tell you why this is utterly ridiculous. She lives in the suburbs of a major metropolitan area (New York City) where there are a decent amount of diesel stations and 8 - 9 times out of 10, my Dad goes out and fuels up for her anyway. I know it is absurd, but what can I say?
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
RE: "Shopping for a Friend" Update. Well, the MB dealer dug in at $54.9K, retreating to their bunkers and piling on the sand bags. They merely sniffed at the $52.5K offer and begged for mercy at $54K. They were very clean on all the fees however. There are simply no little doggy treats for any buyers of the new C class.
I personally would have walked at $54K, at least for a few days and a few calls to other dealers, but it's not my deal or my money (thankfully). I did work out some nice option packages for my friend though, getting him past the stage where German car makes dangle shiny objects in front of you while they hand you the pen to tick off the options list. We had to draw the line somewhere. I mean, no all automakers have the nerve to charge you extra based on the color you choose. Really? nickel and dime, nickel and dime.
Good deal. Did he get $54K all in? Or $54K + this fee + that fee+ a little extra to grow on?
For that kind of jack, I probably would have jumped on an E Class, too...given the incentives available and the likelihood that it will be worth more a little ways down the line.
Now that the Charger is somewhat broken in – and I am pretty much done with stationary idling to show people the various dash displays, etc. – I filled the tank this morning and monitored the MPG on my way to work. EPA highway rating is 25 MPG. The first 20 miles of my commute to work is primarily on Interstate 85 South – toward Atlanta. Traffic is generally moving at 65 to 75 MPH at this time of morning. Driving with traffic, the display showed 28 MPG when I pulled off the highway. After diving 20 miles, the Range display showed almost 360.
I certainly did not choose the Charger [ V8 and all ] with MPG as a top priority, so these numbers are acceptable – to me.
When I fill up, the range shows between 400 and 410...I can live with this. Now with almost 1300 on the clock, it's still a blast to drive. So much more economical for my commute plus it's fun to throw it around. Even loving the new wheels even though I liked what I had and would've kept them if they were the 17 size. Totally happy that I sold the Tucson, it was the right thing to do actually. And so glad that we're out of the silver phase, the blue is a beautiful color and looks great clean or dirty.
The Sandman
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
One-third of all car shoppers said that they prefer to contact a car dealer via text message, as opposed to phone or e-mail. We're pushing CarCode to get more salespeople on board with texting.
RE: "Shopping for a Friend" Update. Well, the MB dealer dug in at $54.9K, retreating to their bunkers and piling on the sand bags. They merely sniffed at the $52.5K offer and begged for mercy at $54K. They were very clean on all the fees however. There are simply no little doggy treats for any buyers of the new C class.
I personally would have walked at $54K, at least for a few days and a few calls to other dealers, but it's not my deal or my money (thankfully). I did work out some nice option packages for my friend though, getting him past the stage where German car makes dangle shiny objects in front of you while they hand you the pen to tick off the options list. We had to draw the line somewhere. I mean, no all automakers have the nerve to charge you extra based on the color you choose. Really? nickel and dime, nickel and dime.
You might want to check out the "BMW 3-Series Starting Problems" topic for a textbook example of serial incompetent BMW repair, with an added dash of "grab your ankles" overcharging- I didn't want to mention this in "Tales From Under the Hood" as I knew certain parties would take offense at my reply to the doofus owner- which contains my assessment of the alleged "mechanics" who couldn't troubleshoot their way out of a wet paper bag...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
He got it for $54.9K (less tax and license of course). There were no abusive fees or that nonsense, and I guided him through the shark tank in F&I no problem. The car is heavily optioned but that's what he wanted. He's not a young man and not in good health, so this car will probably be "IT" for him---what the hell, he has the $$$, let him enjoy himself! Long story why he didn't buy the E class.
I have this mantra on how to gain a reputation for giving good advice. "Find out what someone actually wants to do and help them do it".
RE: "Shopping for a Friend" Update. Well, the MB dealer dug in at $54.9K, retreating to their bunkers and piling on the sand bags. They merely sniffed at the $52.5K offer and begged for mercy at $54K. They were very clean on all the fees however. There are simply no little doggy treats for any buyers of the new C class.
I personally would have walked at $54K, at least for a few days and a few calls to other dealers, but it's not my deal or my money (thankfully). I did work out some nice option packages for my friend though, getting him past the stage where German car makes dangle shiny objects in front of you while they hand you the pen to tick off the options list. We had to draw the line somewhere. I mean, no all automakers have the nerve to charge you extra based on the color you choose. Really? nickel and dime, nickel and dime.
Good deal. Did he get $54K all in? Or $54K + this fee + that fee+ a little extra to grow on?
For that kind of jack, I probably would have jumped on an E Class, too...given the incentives available and the likelihood that it will be worth more a little ways down the line.
He got it for $54.9K (less tax and license of course). There were no abusive fees or that nonsense, and I guided him through the shark tank in F&I no problem. The car is heavily optioned but that's what he wanted. He's not a young man and not in good health, so this car will probably be "IT" for him---what the hell, he has the $$$, let him enjoy himself! Long story why he didn't buy the E class.
I have this mantra on how to gain a reputation for giving good advice. "Find out what someone actually wants to do and help them do it".
RE: "Shopping for a Friend" Update. Well, the MB dealer dug in at $54.9K, retreating to their bunkers and piling on the sand bags. They merely sniffed at the $52.5K offer and begged for mercy at $54K. They were very clean on all the fees however. There are simply no little doggy treats for any buyers of the new C class.
I personally would have walked at $54K, at least for a few days and a few calls to other dealers, but it's not my deal or my money (thankfully). I did work out some nice option packages for my friend though, getting him past the stage where German car makes dangle shiny objects in front of you while they hand you the pen to tick off the options list. We had to draw the line somewhere. I mean, no all automakers have the nerve to charge you extra based on the color you choose. Really? nickel and dime, nickel and dime.
Good deal. Did he get $54K all in? Or $54K + this fee + that fee+ a little extra to grow on?
For that kind of jack, I probably would have jumped on an E Class, too...given the incentives available and the likelihood that it will be worth more a little ways down the line.
Shifty, that is sound advice! I might even steal that from you and tell my employee's something similar!
At the end of the day it sounds like he was indeed happy and if there are other issues afoot, then why the heck not!
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
He got it for $54.9K (less tax and license of course). There were no abusive fees or that nonsense, and I guided him through the shark tank in F&I no problem. The car is heavily optioned but that's what he wanted. He's not a young man and not in good health, so this car will probably be "IT" for him---what the hell, he has the $$$, let him enjoy himself! Long story why he didn't buy the E class.
Drove a TLX this afternoon - 4 cylinder Tech package.
The lines of the car look much better in person than in pictures - still nothing too extravagant, but clean conservative look with some nice creases.
Interior is impressive, I thought - roomy feel considering the relatively small exterior size. Instrumentation was sharp looking.
Sporty drive with quick handling. Transmission (8-speed DCT) provided smooth starts, and shift points were aggressive in sport mode. Overall acceleration leaves a bit to be desired, but that's not surprising for the 4 cylinder. I thought the character of the 4 cylinder was fun - but of course that's where my mind's at, what with looking at Civic Si's and such. Got on the highway, and the car was very quiet.
Overall I liked it a lot - all the goodness from an Accord, but with a bit more style and upscale feel. Plus some extras not available on the Honda - blind-spot monitoring (not just the lanewatch), 8-speed DCT, a little extra hp, nicer stereo (I think), control knob for the touchscreen(s). All for just under a $5k premium (comparing this Tech model to a EX-L Nav Accord).
If I was "ready" for more of a replacement for the 5-series, I'd really consider this. With what I'm looking at now, if Acura would've offered a stick, I would buy it.
Yeah, it's about a 10K spread right now between the C and the E Types. Having looked them all over, I'd say both cars are, in their own way, worth about that difference in price. There's really no startling difference between the C and E. He often drives to San Francisco, and rarely carries backseat passengers, so the smaller size appealed to him.
He got it for $54.9K (less tax and license of course). There were no abusive fees or that nonsense, and I guided him through the shark tank in F&I no problem. The car is heavily optioned but that's what he wanted. He's not a young man and not in good health, so this car will probably be "IT" for him---what the hell, he has the $$$, let him enjoy himself! Long story why he didn't buy the E class.
And in terms of out the door price vs MSRP, the cars can be equal. A 57K C is probably close to a 64K E, at least here. The E is bigger and kind of mature, but it is also a known entity, where the C is new, and although not a horrible mess, does have a few quirks being reported on the forums. And I have to say, paying 55K for a 4cyl car built in Alabama is a little tough for me to handle.
Yeah, it's about a 10K spread right now between the C and the E Types. Having looked them all over, I'd say both cars are, in their own way, worth about that difference in price. There's really no startling difference between the C and E. He often drives to San Francisco, and rarely carries backseat passengers, so the smaller size appealed to him.
Oh it's a V-6, not a 4. I don't see how Alabama has anything to do with it. It's how the factory is managed. If you go to Germany you'll find a lot of assembly workers who are not Germans. So I could point to someone's new Benz and say "your car was built by Turks" and I wouldn't be far wrong.
Comments
Q, I think your feeling on the "fun factor" of your Fit vs. your previous Accord is similar to how I feel about the Civic Si. For that matter, I've actually been eyeing a used 2015 Fit EX manual - someone must have not liked it and "returned" it after 2k miles. The Honda dealer is asking $17,400, which is only $1,000 off MSRP, but given how they're selling, and holding their value, that could be a cheap way to go to scratch that itch I have for a manual - let's say you could sell it after a year for $15-16k - that's be a pretty cheap ownership.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
By the way, my salesperson yesterday at the Honda dealer was a really nice, knowledgeable, young Asian guy who races cars as a hobby. He said something about doing so for bmwcca, and that he has an F10 M5 that he has the "use of"?
While it seems there are many salespeople out there who can barely drive a stick at all, I was actually a little self-conscious with this guy - but he remarked on how well and quickly I found the "feel" of the manuals on the test drives. Not bad for not owning my own manual shifting car for a little while now! I still got it.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Around here, there are two Benz dealers, both owned by the same guy. So, not enough competition. I'd have to go to KY (about 40 miles away) to get something more competitive.
I know AMEX uses TrueCar for their numbers, as does USAA I believe. As you say, no trunk money I can find, either.
One offer? I'd roll in at $200 over invoice.
IF he wanted to play the game? Roll out $100 under invoice and start looking at every dealer within a 250 mile radius and play "dialing for dollars". Of course, no guarantees you'll hit the phone price once you walk in their door, but I'm betting someone will bite....after you burn up a tank of gas (maybe more) to get there.
For you warm weather folks: Went to the Pats/Ravens game with my son, temp at kickoff was 19 and when we left, 8. My last 4+ mile run was in 18 degree weather. What does that make me? Not bright...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
The new C400 is very expensive... and, even more so to lease.. Hopefully, he is sticking with the C300
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
And indeed, they can be optioned up like that - loaded C400 can pass 62K without a lot of work. Loaded 3ers are in that range, too. After years of negligible price inflation on the entry models, prices have ballooned, as there are now lower models to take their place.
And like kyfdx mentioned, lease rates aren't too hot, at least not when I looked. A more expensive E was significantly less per month, and IMO is a better deal, even if it's the old timer in the lineup.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
C400 - std MF (.00180-.00220) and 58% for 36/15
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!
MODERATOR
2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2024 Kia Sportage Hybrid SX Prestige
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
The intangible here is the reliability and peace of mind that goes along with that. Really, desires aside, that's really what sparks the "I need a new car" trigger.
IMO, a $25K car depreciates at about the same rate, whether it is a 4 year old BMW or a brand-new Chevy..
That's just my anecdotal observation, though.. and, those might not be the best examples..
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
I got more than 10% off my car, but it was towards the end of the year, as a current year model. Also from the forums I read, intense competition between California dealers can make for the best discounts in the country - people generally pay a little more everywhere else. That might help Shifty's friend too.
Consider my Forester as an example (MSRP 25.8). Value-wise, it was worth (locally) about 23 six months after I bought it. After twelve months, 21. at 24 months, 19. And now, at 66 months, 14.*
So, it lost 11% of it's value in six months. In the next six month, "only" 9%. And, over the next year, it lost about 10% total. Then, over another 3.5 years, about 25%. So, not only is the percentage depreciation drop slowing somewhat over time, but the actual cash value of that percentage is also dropping. (E.g., 10% of 26,000 is a lot more than 10% of 14,000).
This general curve is pretty consistent for all cars (excluding collectibles), though timing means a lot, I'm sure, for actual sales such as in/out of warranty, private vs. trade vs. retail, etc.
*Values based on KBB used retail.
In some cases, that may very well be true from an actual cash value standpoint. Some cars do depreciate more rapidly than others.
Consider my Forester as an example (MSRP 25.8). Value-wise, it was worth (locally) about 23 six months after I bought it. After twelve months, 21. at 24 months, 19. And now, at 66 months, 14.*
So, it lost 11% of it's value in six months. In the next six month, "only" 9%. And, over the next year, it lost about 10% total. Then, over another 3.5 years, about 25%. So, not only is the percentage depreciation drop slowing somewhat over time, but the actual cash value of that percentage is also dropping. (E.g., 10% of 26,000 is a lot more than 10% of 14,000).
Again, anecdotal, but this general curve is pretty consistent for all cars (excluding collectibles), though timing means a lot, I'm sure, for actual sales such as in/out of warranty, private vs. trade vs. retail, etc. Actual percentages and dollars obviously vary model to model, but they all exhibit this same slowing trend as a function of time and/or miles.
*Values based on KBB used retail.
All 3 of the above vehicles were selling in the range of $22k to $25k.
The leftover 2014 CR-V was going to cost me about $4,500 in depreciation, the 2015 CR-V came in about $5,500, and the Genesis was (hold on to your pants) $10,500.
I think if you want luxury, you're going to have to pay for it. One way or the other.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The problem with the C Class vs. the E Class is that there is some nice trunk money available on the E, but not the C.
2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger
My 535i for instance - had an original MSRP of about $65k - probably could have been purchased for very low $60k's. I bought it 3 years old and 23k miles later for $38k. I assume the depreciation on the car the next three years will not be nearly as much.
I do believe in most cases, the more expensive the car, the greater that initial hit is going to be. In my own example above - that's about 35% depreciation for those first three years. I think if you start with a more "reasonably priced" car, the depreciation will tend to be less (both from a percentage standpoint and gross value).
For instance, if you buy a nice Honda Accord for $27k, it will likely still be worth around $20k a few years later - around 26% depreciation. I think that has to do with the general affordability of such a car - $20k may not be much of a discount off new, but it's a reasonable cost for a good car. Whereas on a luxury car, it has to get to some realm of affordability for people to consider it - and to do so, it takes a proportionately bigger hit in depreciation.
The Honda Fit is another good example - the previous model was what, $16-17k on average? I see used ones with a healthy amount of miles on them listed for a mere $3k or so off that new price. 'Cause for $13k, it's still a lot of car for the money. CR-V is also crazy on the used market.
And to be fair, to measure "true" depreciation, I would say you should compare retail to retail. Comparing what you paid a dealer for a car to current trade, or even private party, value includes a component of loss separate from the actual decline in value.
Wow! Now I'm really rambling on! Can you tell I work with numbers all day in my job?
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
As far as retail vs. others, I tend to look at retail only because I have no intent to sell. As such, retail value applies: The only way I'm getting rid of the Forester is if it gets hauled off in a stretcher (as it were). Ergo, insurance should be paying me based on used retail. Once you've sold it, you got what you got, and the spread applies.
What do you know about the Cayenne S Hybrid? I see some leftover, brand new 2014s with some pretty hefty discounts off sticker. Do you think I would require any additional maintenance compared to a standard V6 Cayenne? My Mom truly loved her 2011 V6 Cayennne, so did my Dad. He just didn't like paying to keep it on the road. I actually suggested a year old CPO Cayenne Diesel. It would be perfect for her as the diesel would most likely be an ex-loaner with 10K or so miles, doesn't have any spark plugs (which was an expensive service), and get great mileage as she drives 25K per year.
But I was shot down. She told me no diesel & no used cars.
Edit - I see Porsche has discontinued both the base V6 & The Cayenne S Hybrid. Definitely don't want an orphan car this pricey. Depreciation will be insane. I'm sure all the leftover 2014s will become service loaners at some point. Looks like the Diesel is now the base model.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
and yes, she is in Abu Dhabi.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I think very highly of the Cayenne Diesel--I think if Mom had given it a chance and a long test drive, she might have changed her mind.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I personally would have walked at $54K, at least for a few days and a few calls to other dealers, but it's not my deal or my money (thankfully). I did work out some nice option packages for my friend though, getting him past the stage where German car makes dangle shiny objects in front of you while they hand you the pen to tick off the options list. We had to draw the line somewhere. I mean, no all automakers have the nerve to charge you extra based on the color you choose. Really? nickel and dime, nickel and dime.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
For that kind of jack, I probably would have jumped on an E Class, too...given the incentives available and the likelihood that it will be worth more a little ways down the line.
I certainly did not choose the Charger [ V8 and all ] with MPG as a top priority, so these numbers are acceptable – to me.
YMMV.
- Ray
Zoom zoom . . .
The Sandman
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2025 VW GTI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I have this mantra on how to gain a reputation for giving good advice. "Find out what someone actually wants to do and help them do it".
At the end of the day it sounds like he was indeed happy and if there are other issues afoot, then why the heck not!
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
The lines of the car look much better in person than in pictures - still nothing too extravagant, but clean conservative look with some nice creases.
Interior is impressive, I thought - roomy feel considering the relatively small exterior size. Instrumentation was sharp looking.
Sporty drive with quick handling. Transmission (8-speed DCT) provided smooth starts, and shift points were aggressive in sport mode. Overall acceleration leaves a bit to be desired, but that's not surprising for the 4 cylinder. I thought the character of the 4 cylinder was fun - but of course that's where my mind's at, what with looking at Civic Si's and such. Got on the highway, and the car was very quiet.
Overall I liked it a lot - all the goodness from an Accord, but with a bit more style and upscale feel. Plus some extras not available on the Honda - blind-spot monitoring (not just the lanewatch), 8-speed DCT, a little extra hp, nicer stereo (I think), control knob for the touchscreen(s). All for just under a $5k premium (comparing this Tech model to a EX-L Nav Accord).
If I was "ready" for more of a replacement for the 5-series, I'd really consider this. With what I'm looking at now, if Acura would've offered a stick, I would buy it.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman