Hyundai Sonata 2006-2007

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Comments

  • era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    So are you officially accusing Hyundai of dumping?

    Nope.

    In the States: VERY SMALL profit margins

    In Korea: EXORBITANT profit margins

    Hyundai overseas: 75% of Hyundai sales, 50% of Hyundai profit

    Hyundai Korea: 25% sales, 50% profit

    This eye-popping ratio says it all. It's ripping off Korean customers.

    Since Hyundai built the Alabama plant, it'll avoid any dumping charges easily in the future.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Can you provide link to this info or what is the source? I would like to be able to verify your claims but can't without sources/links. :confuse:
  • stockmanjoestockmanjoe Member Posts: 353
    Look pretty much the same to me except the second shot. It looks like a GPS system above the HVAC vents or something.
  • era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    Can you provide link to this info or what is the source?

    American selling prices

    Korean prices (including taxes): NO Discount or $500 at most (sometimes)

    => You need to get some help from someone who can read Korean.

    The sales/profit ratio (overseas vs Korea)

    => plus tons of Korean news articles. / You need to get some help from someone who can read Korean.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Since we are an English-speaking site, please try to stick to English-language links - thanks!
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    you can't say it's a rip off. all cars are just more expensive in korea. my friend in korea bought a toyota solara for almost $60,000!! and audi a8 costs almost 1.5 mil in korea.
  • bryan200kbryan200k Member Posts: 64
    "era174"... Your links tell me nothing. How about a Hyundai financial report of some sort. Are you taking into consideration, currency exchange rates and products just being more expensive from one country to another. I see you are in Canada. Last time I was in Ottawa, a meal that I could purchase for $30 US dollars in the US, cost me $45 Canadian dollars.
  • joedirtjoedirt Member Posts: 36
    I posted this on the price forum, too.

    But is this a good deal?

    New Sonata GLS V6 with the following equipment:

    Package 01/AA - 01

    16" WHEELS W/MICHELIN TIRES
    4 WHEEL DISC BRAKES W/ABS
    A/C W/FILTER
    AM/FM/CD/MPS RADIO
    AUTO LIGHT CONTROL
    CARPETED FLOOR MATS
    CHROME-TIPPED DUAL EXHAUSTS
    CRUISE CONTROL
    DUAL FRONT AND SIDE AIRBAGS
    ELECTRONIC STABILITY CONTROL
    FOG LIGHTS
    FRONT SEAT HEAD RESTRAINTS
    LEATHER WRAPPED SHIFT KNOB
    POWER HEATED OUTSIDE MIRRORS
    POWER WINDOWS,LOCKS,MIRRORS
    REMOTE KEYLESS ENTRY W/ALARM
    SIDE CURTAIN AIR BAGS
    STEERING WHEEL AUDIO CONTROLS
    TRACTION CONTROL SYSTEM
    TRIP COMPUTER

    MSRP is $21,495

    I haggled with 4 dealers, and got one to quote me $16,863, plus tax, title and license.

    Is this a good price? Thank you.
  • era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    you can't say it's a rip off. all cars are just more expensive in korea. my friend in korea bought a toyota solara for almost $60,000!! and audi a8 costs almost 1.5 mil in korea.

    They pose additional import tax on foreign cars in Korea. And the import vehicle market is not that big there. That means, small sales and high profits.

    But, the Sonata is a WHOLE different story.

    Around 100,000 Sonatas are sold there (130,000 in the States).

    Huge sales and huge profits there to make up for small profits in the States (huge sales).
  • era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    Your links tell me nothing. How about a Hyundai financial report of some sort. Are you taking into consideration, currency exchange rates

    Yes, the report is based on Hyundai's official financial report and its official news releases.

    Yes, currency exchange is always considered whenever Hyundai Korea sets its prices in Korean and the States.

    Korean customers HAVE ALWAYS PAID exorbitant prices for the Sonata, considering currency exchange rates.
  • lawrence45lawrence45 Member Posts: 44
    A few comments on the latest IIHS crash tests:

    The 2005 Sonata got acceptable/poor/poor on the IIHS tests and 4/4 on the NHTSA test.
    The 2006 Sonata results were good/acceptable/good and 5/5.
    So when will our insurance rates go down?

    My car was made in Korea in August, 2005. Am I correct in assuming that the recall for the seat adjustment knob doesn't affect me? Was the knob replaced on both the driver and passenger sides or just the driver's side?

    How cheap can Ford be? In order to keep their base price less than Sonata's (by a small amount) they made the curtain air bags optional. So they got what they deserved in the latest test when the base Fusion got lousy ratings. And now they say that the bags will be standard NEXT YEAR. This was the car to begin Ford's recovery!!
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Nope.

    Sure sounds like your saying that.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • jcm68jcm68 Member Posts: 33
    Soooooo what? Who care if they pay twice or triple? As long You get a good deal in Canada or in the USA, why bother with what Koreans pay for their Hyundais? :confuse:

    Of course, unless if you are a Korean living in Korea...... :blush:
  • era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    Nope. Sure sounds like your saying that.

    Who cares for Sonata prices in Korea?

    Naturally, there is little info on Hyundai's sales/profit ratio (domestic vs overseas) in English.

    BUT, IN KOREAN, there's TONS of information on those topics.

    It's better for you to get some Korean help to read many reports on them.

    FYI, Hyundai/Kia controls the Korean vehicle market (around 75%) and is the price setter. Other makers (GM Daewoo, Renault Samsung, and Ssangyong) just follow it.

    It sets almost monopolistic prices and the Korean government virtually does nothing because it enjoys huge TAXES coming from exorbitant Sonata prices.
  • era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    Who care if they pay twice or triple?

    Right.

    American customers might need to know the American Sonata is heavily subsidized by Sonata buyers in Korea.
  • jcm68jcm68 Member Posts: 33
    Sorry for my selfish American way of rationalizing things but............Why it is so important or
    even relevant to us? I am not trying to offend you or anyone, but I don't get your point. """Koreans pay more, reason for having the "Best Bang for the Buck" here in the states?"""
  • spinzerospinzero Member Posts: 91
    Nobody put a gun to Koreans' head to buy Hyundai. If Hyundai is in fact "ripping off" Koreans, they can simply choose to buy another brand, such as Samsung and Daewoo. Oh wait, they charge basically the same for the same kinds of cars. Then maybe they can get foreign cars! Nope, the price of foreign cars there is nothing but daylight robbery.

    Hyundai simply charges as much as they can in the given market, just like any other company. It's free market, and even though foreign cars are hit with high tax, GM and Renault now have means to bypass that and compete with Hyundai on equal footing. And they are doing that.

    You mentioned that the government doesn't do anything about this. Just what do you propose it should do? Artificially control the car prices?

    Have you checked the price of cars in the UK? It's even more ridiculous, especially after tax. So what? That is the suitable price for cars in that country.

    US is a very tough battle ground, and is also the most important future market for Hyundai. Why is it strange that they will offer better prices here, especially when they have to overcome their previous image?

    I don't see why you are so worked up about this whole thing at all. :confuse:
  • era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    Why is it strange that they will offer better prices here, especially when they have to overcome their previous image?

    I don't think it is NOT strange Hyundai is milking its domestic Sonata customers to offer "the best prices" and "the best warranties" in the States.

    Sometimes we might need to know where those "best prices" & "best warranties" come from. Just information. Nothing else.
  • spinzerospinzero Member Posts: 91
    Point taken. :shades:
  • tb88tb88 Member Posts: 242
    I don't know where you get your information!
    It has always been a fact that cars in other parts of the world cost more. Period!
    It has nothing to do with subsidizing sales in the US. Japanese cars cost more in Japan and Europe than in the US; the same as Korean and European cars!. It has to do mostly with heavy taxes imposed on cars in other countries by their own governments!! Exported Items / cars don't pay those heavy taxes and therefore can be sold abroad cheaper. It is called global economy: less taxes = Lower prices!
    Don't get emotional about Koreans subsidizing anybody... you should instead blame those governments which tax everything to death in their own countries!
    Take Gasoline as an example: Every country pays the same price for crude oil, yet a gallon of gas costs $2.30 in the US and $5.50-$6 in Europe and japan... probably also in Korea... Again because those governments levy a heavy tax on Gasoline!
    Are Koreans then subsidizing Americans to buy Gas at $2.30?
    NONSENSE!

    PS: the main reason for heavy taxes on items sold in other countries is to compensate for the lack of a solid tax base on Revenues like in the US... because of widespread fraud and tax evasion in those countries!
    And also to pay for social programs like health care, etc...
    So they add a VAT ( Value Added Tax; or a National sales Tax), on every produced item at every stage of production!
  • cjlarscjlars Member Posts: 29
    "it looks like Honda and VW are more concerned with safety than Hyundai"?
    The Honda Element and VW Beetle scored a "poor" in side impact(and the Accord "poor" in rear crash protection), or are Honda and VW only concerned with the safety of some of their vehicles?

    Personally I wouldn't accept a "marginal" or "poor" in any category.
    "Acceptable" is, well, acceptable. The IIHS has strict standards and "acceptable" while not as good as their top rating,is still a good showing (that is why it is acceptable). Lets not brush off the rear crash protection because a lot of "big" names in safety (e.g. BMW) do poorly, there is no excuse for a "marginal" or "poor" showing in this category. I have seen a lot of patients in chronic pain because of this type of injury--nothing to scoff at. I was pleased to see the Sonata do well in this category.
  • jojoejojoe Member Posts: 81
    "Whiplash injury affects over one million people in the U.S. each year and is the most common injury resulting from car accidents."
    Maybe you should read this Backy....I think having "good" for rear is excellent and having acceptable on sides is ok and better then "poor" rear as per Honda Accord. I agree it would be better to have all goods,but I am happy with this car and its results.Read below...
    http://neurosurgeon.com/conditions/whiplash.htm
  • era174era174 Member Posts: 67
    It's not a matter of heavy taxes.

    The Korean Sonata is already way more expensive than the American BEFORE TAXES: the price comparison is based on the prices before taxes in my original post.
  • tb88tb88 Member Posts: 242
    I am referring to the VAT TAXES : (a tax you don't see listed and that is paid on each component/part of the car, that is paid by the manufacturer of that part; and which is passed along /added to raise the total cost of the car; which is ultimately paid by the buyer!

    That VAT tax is not collected when the car is for export!

    I am not talking about the SALES TAX !
  • billwardbillward Member Posts: 154
    American customers might need to know the American Sonata is heavily subsidized by Sonata buyers in Korea.

    Why, hey, that kind of makes up for the fact that in my area of the US (Hampton Roads, Virginia, aka "Norfolk"), we can't build cargo ships anymore because the Korean government heavily subsidizes shipbuilding, undercutting our prices.

    What, that's ok, but the US buying cheaper Sonatas isn't?

    And in truth, exactly WHAT does all this have to do with the Sonata, really? If you have a beef with Hyundai over the way Hyundai Korea runs their business there, take it there. I'm here to discuss and read about the '06 (and '07?) Sonata.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I don't think it is NOT strange Hyundai is milking its domestic Sonata customers to offer "the best prices" and "the best warranties" in the States.

    Could it be possible that Hyundai is only responding to the market forces in each individual market? And that they are not "milking" anyone to support anyone else.

    Others have mentioned the price of other cars in Korea, it just seems that Hyundai is responding to that market and not "milking" it.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Whiplash injury affects over one million people in the U.S. each year and is the most common injury resulting from car accidents

    IIRC whiplash is also the most commonly claimed injury in insurance fraud cases.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • diemusikdiemusik Member Posts: 12
    I'm a Korean living in Korea.

    I see your points. You're right we have to pay more for a lot less. I know the prices in both Korean and American markets. Although I must admit that I hate to pay more for less, that's how the market works. The Korean auto market is not fully opened to competition yet, but it may be so after the FTA talks with the US are over next year (though they could go on longer). Then, we'd be able to buy Hyundai cars at lower prices.

    Hyundai raised the prices quite a lot with the launching of the new Santa Fe this year. I currently drive the first generation Santa Fe (2004, 2.0 diesel) and paid about $21,000 (2.0 diesel). It's a "gold basic luxury" (leather, heated front seats, etc.) trim with a sunroof. For the same price, I won't be able to buy the same trim Santa Fe anymore but just the base model. But, even with the price hike, Hyundai cars are still cheaper for what they are compared to the imports. That's why consumers are buying them.

    All I want to say is that although Korean consumers grunt, there is nothing morally and ethically wrong with what Hyundai's doing in Korean market. Wouldn't you do the same if you were in their shoes? Just following and adapting to the market conditions. That's all. And, for now, I'd be willing to buy their cars because they are still good choices over imported vehicles, and I want to see them thrive in American market in the future.

    PS: I appreciate interesting discussions going on here on this forum. It's heartwarming to hear all the cheers for the Korean company. (: :blush:
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Good ole closed, government subsidized, inefficient markets propped up by the government. Decent car - lousy economics. Not a recipe for long term success like Toyota.
  • martianmartian Member Posts: 220
    The previous posts are interesting. It has often been alleged, that Korean mfgs. sell products at a loss in the USA, and subsidize this via higher prices in their home market. This is called 'dumping". In the case of the DAEWOO group. the con man who ran that company (Wu Chu Won) was selling his cars for less than the cost of the materials, gambling that he could buy market share and (eventually) become profitable. Needless to say, his plan failed, and the DAEWOO group went broke (owing the Korean government about $5 billion). Is there any hard evidence that Hyundai is doing the same? If so, the Korean taxpayers shouldbe mightily pissed off.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Not a recipe for long term success like Toyota.

    Yeah like Japan has an open and free market.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • jvc23jvc23 Member Posts: 5
    Lawyers may call that dumping, but it's not what economists call dumping. They have to be selling below cost. They are in fact selling in the US at competitive prices and overpricing at home because of monopoly power. They are not losing money on foreign product. Besides which, GM and Ford sold many products at a loss (see the Lincoln LS) and STILL didn't do too well.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    joedirt,

    That sounds like my package, which is the GLS V6 with no other options. Sounds about like what I paid, and is a good price. You may be able to get them down to ~$16,500, but probably no lower.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    They have to be selling below cost.

    actually its below market prices. Say market price for steel is $500 per ton, selling your steel for $400 a ton is considered dumping.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I respect your opinion. Note however that the IIHS happens to agree with my view on this. It believes that frontal and side-impact crash safety is more important than rear impact safety, based on how it prioritizes the different crash tests. Whiplash may be a common injury, but I still would rather get whiplash vs. a pelvic fracture and internal injuries, if I had to choose.

    But the important thing is that the Sonata's crash safety is good enough for you. If I can find a car in my price range with better crash safety when it is time for me to buy my next long-term car, I will buy it. I see the Sonata's IIHS score as a huge missed opportunity for Hyundai.
  • jvc23jvc23 Member Posts: 5
    As I said, that is the "legal" definition of dumping that's foisted on us. It is an abuse of the underlying economic theory and a pure protectionist measure. No good economist takes that definition seriously. Lawyers could say that selling cars with funny names is dumping and make money doing so. That doesn't make it "Real" dumping. Nor should we care when comparing car companies.

    Let me go further: Using the legal definition we should encourage all foreign companies to dump their cars here.
  • cjlarscjlars Member Posts: 29
    I think this over simplifies things. Crash tests results are only part of the decision, avoiding a crash (e.g. ESC) also ranks high on my list. The Malibu was a top safety pick but without stability control it doesn't make my list.I would still rather avoid an accident than take my chances in a crash , no matter how well the car rates in IIHS testing.
    I took more exception to your statement that VW and Honda must care more about safety than Hyundai, when, as I mentioned, they each have vehicles which rated "poor" in side crash testing (namely the Element and the Beetle). The Accord rated a "poor" as recently as 2004. I don't think its fair to paint with such a broad brush about safety issues. Again , the Sonata's results , while not the best of the best , were as good or better than many so-called safety conscious manufacturers (Volvo, Mercedes C-class,Acura TSX) and the car comes with standard stability control( still not even an option on many vehicles). I think this alone speaks to Hyundai's commitment to safety.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Maybe you should read this Backy....I think having "good" for rear is excellent and having acceptable on sides is ok and better then "poor" rear as per Honda Accord.

    link title

    IIHS seems to rate the Accord as safer though.

    cjlars: The fact that the brand new Civic could get all "good" shows Honda's commitment to safety. You have to consider that the Accord is a four year old design. I personally would rather have a car that did better in crash tests than having ESC. ESC can not protect you in the event of a crash. It can help prevent one though.

    Hyundai did a lot by offering a long list of standard safety features, but should have also focused even more on crash results. Hyundai did improve greatly when compared to its previous model. But having an acceptable on the side crash is not very good IMO.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think ESC is valuable and the fact that the Sonata offers it as standard equipment on all trim levels is a very positive thing, and a big consideration when deciding whether to buy the car. The Sonata's crash test scores are not bad (and I never said they were)--they are pretty good for its class. But when you are trying to overtake well-established competitors, and when your corporate marketing focuses on safety, "pretty good" doesn't quite cut it.

    This is not so big an issue now, given that the Sonata is competing against mostly older designs. But if the '07 Camry and the Altima and Accord replacements that are due soon do better in crash safety than the Sonata (and I think that is very likely), then it will become a big issue.
  • cjlarscjlars Member Posts: 29
    I suppose that ideally we would want a car that scored well in crash testing and had stabilty control. I stand by my statement that I would take a Sonata with stability control and its current crash test ratings over the Malibu with better crash testing and no ESC. I understand that ESC does not protect in an accident, that was exactly my point, it may help prevent one (which is always better in my book).
    Are you suggesting that Honda's "commitment to safety" didn't start until this model year with the Civic? The Element(which I believe debuted in 2003) scored a "poor"(not even "marginal") in side crash testing. Lets not let Honda or any other manufacturer off the hook here. I'm sure Honda had the capability of making an Accord with better side protection 4 years ago but did not.
  • cjlarscjlars Member Posts: 29
    I don't think either of us characterized the Sonata results as "bad". Perhaps the more appropriate word might be "disappointing". I ,too, was disappointed that the Sonata didn't score "goods" across the board. I agree that we'll have to wait and see how the redesigns score but I don't know if it will be a "big issue" for most car buyers, especially in light of the Sonata's relatively good showing and attractive pricing. Last I heard the Sonata was selling quite well, though I have no way of knowing what Hyundai's expectations were for sales.
  • gibigibi Member Posts: 9
    Cant find a way to post yet, just got signed in, Maybe I can get some answers on this page, I own a 2006 sonata, after 400 miles the car drifts to the left. they aligned the front end twice no good, they finally adjusted the front end with the caster being off to eliminate the pull. fixed it for most roads but still have to hold the wheel to the right on interstate, anybody having similar problems, Help appreciated
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Looks like you found a way to post just fine! ;-)

    Welcome - I'm sure the good folks hanging out here will have some suggestions for you.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Some people don't pay much attention to crash tests. The current Camry design ('02-'06) sold in big numbers even before Toyota tweaked it to improve its crash test scores. But if all of Sonata's main competitors surpass it in the crash tests in the next year or so, I don't think that will do anything to help Sonata sales. Plus there will be the added competition of the new designs from Toyota, Nissan, and Honda.
  • delta4delta4 Member Posts: 138
    Backy, I am in agreement with your comments regarding the IIHS crash test results. However, lets not think for one minute that Hyundai will not make changes to the '07 Sonata to reflect improvement in this area. The Sonata is their flagship vehicle and they had expected it to score "good" across all areas in the saftey test.

    To say that their upper management is disappointed is well, an understatement. Their engineers are already studying the data, looking at what tweaks need to be done to correct the structure. I also agree that Sonata will need to improve to keep pace and remain competitive with the major players in this segment.

    Overall, the IIHS test results for Sonata was good and comparable to many other better known and more expensive brands. I've closely watched this manufacturer's phoenix- like rise and I too have high expectation for this brand. Perhaps it's because we like to root for the underdog. Especially when they pick themselves up after falling down.

    I do see Hyundai becoming a significant brand within the next 2-3 years. On the other hand I expect Hyundai to push themselves to rise above their competitors. They're getting much closer(maybe bumper-to-bumper )but they aren't there yet.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    Don't worry Backy. Sonata will sell well.***** GOOD-ACCEPTABLE-GOOD***** with $5,000 to $7,000 less than competitor's actual selling price is good enough.

    BTW, world's most safe sedan won't protect you if a Semi truck at 20 MPH ,or Navigator at 35 MPH hit you on the side. I believe...if it is your time to go, it just the time to go.

    Check www.ogrish.com for car accident pictures. There are plenty of BMW, AUDI, and B-Mer drivers who can never drive their safe luxury cars again. ;)
  • cjlarscjlars Member Posts: 29
    Unfortunately,I would say that most people don't pay much attention to crash tests. I was talking to a co-worker today and neither she nor her husband had ever heard of IIHS (which probably explains why their vehicle rated a "poor" across the board).
    Lets just say that Hyundai could have (should have) done better without bringing out the "commitment to safety" rhetoric implying that Honda,VW and others would never ever bring out a vehicle which tested less than "goods" across the board, something we know for a fact is not true.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    Little to left at 1st lane is normal ( They made the road that way on purpose, so you can fall a sleep and your car goes to shoulder instead of hitting other cars). 3rd lane should be the other way. I have to hold s-wheel to right a bit because I only drive on a 1st lane. If alignment numbers are good, there is no problem on your car.
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    you are completely wrong

    sonata lx v6 without nav costs about $24.5K in korea

    that's when the exchange rate is about 1030won. the rate went down lately to 970won, so it's probably about 23.5k

    that's hardly a rip off.
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