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Comments
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
In the last few years, most buyers were not that concerned about gas mileage as they are now. The Echo also had goofy styling which was a big turn off.
If it were to cost around the same as a Corolla with side curtain airbags and only get a little better mpg, then it would be a hard sell.
You've described the Echo (with the exception of the side curtain airbags of course) to the tee, hence the dismal sales figures. The vast majority of people who buy sub-compacts don't do so based on the vehicle's looks. They buy them because they're economical to purchase and drive. I've never seen a sub-compact I would call good looking. It would end up being too impractical of a vehicle if looks were a major concern. Space needs to be maximized and looks suffer because of it. Take away the economical purchase price and half of the reason to buy a sub-compact in the first place is gone. I'm telling you, if Toyota ends up pricing the Yaris at more than $12K, they will end up sitting on dealer's lots collecting dust.
Keep the Yaris simple with the key objective of saving fuel. That 1.3L engine may do the job quite well . That would be an unlikely scenario since it will take more than high gas prices at $3 to terminate the performance/power addiction among most N. American car consumers(economical or premium luxury cars).
My view is that there are enough powerful vehicles in N. America( in fact we have quite a gas consuming power glut in terms of autos)---it is about time that we should have a wider choice of frugal gas miser cars that do not pretend to be boy racer vehicles.
If it was EPA estimated at over 35MPG in the city and over 45MPG highway with automatic, it would be a very attractive commuter car.
I think $2k under the xB or Corolla CE would be quite reasonable for the new Yaris, with comparable equipment. As has been pointed out, there isn't that much cost savings building a Yaris vs. a Corolla. And I'd rather pay a few bucks more for a quality small car with a nicer interior than the ECHO had, and full safety features, than get a stripped car like the old base ECHO. If I need to buy a car for $10k or less, I can always buy a year-old model.
My point is the Yaris is estimated to have fuel economy figures which are about the same as that of the Echo, which are not much higher than that of the Corolla. The current Corolla will do low to mid 30's city and low to mid 40's highway. People are not going to be willing to pay the same price, or close to the same price for a much smaller car that only get 3-5 MPG more than the Corolla.
backy
ALL dealers will work with you on price IF they want your business, even the ones that claim to have no haggle pricing. YOU may be willing to pay only $2K less than an xB or a Corolla for the Yaris, but I'm willing to bet MOST people won't be.
Anecdotally, people may get better or worse mileage, but I'm talking about EPA estimates. If you beat EPA estimates on the Corolla, you should also beat them on a Yaris, but the EPA numbers are the guide to compare cars.
So if the Yaris gets over 35 mpg city and over 45 mpg highway with automatic from the EPA, it will be enough to sway people when gas is expensive.
I'm sure it will also be priced lower than a Corolla.
I agree with this mostly. The upcoming Yaris, Fit, and Versa are all ugly to me (not that it will keep me from buying one). The Echo is very ugly, and so is the Scion XA.
But, the VW Polo is a nice looking car (we aren't worthy in the US)
and the upcoming Opel Astra diesel hybrid is very good looking.
Polo:
http://vw.co.uk/new_cars/polo/gallery
Astra:
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/100_news/astra_011005.html
http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_page_orde
Give or take a college grad rebate and/or a dealer incentive here or there, eh?
I think it looks much more attractive than the Scion xA and the old Echo, for example.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Having seen pictures of the Honda Fit and 2007 Toyota Yaris, they not THAT bad looking. I for am actually kind of interested in trading in my 1998 Honda Civic HX CVT coupé for a 2007 Honda Fit myself.
(By the way, I'm starting to hear rumors that VW might be interested in selling the Polo in the USA, provide they can keep the production costs down at their Mexican and Brazilian plants. VW doesn't want to be left behind when the B-segment cars suddenly become hot-selling commodities.)
You can get another good 8-10 years or more out of your Civic. I kept my 88 Accord DX coupe for over 13 years. It was flawless for the first 8 years, after which I spent about $1500 on updating the a/c, a new clutch, new tires, and a few other things. I then gave it to my brother-in-law and was carless for a few years. Now I am driving a "gift" 94 Maxima with 185K miles. I still miss my Accord and I wish I'd kept it, not that the Maxima is a bad car, but I hate its hugeness and inefficiency (although I do not do too bad with it--it is rated at 22/28 but I am getting more like 26/32 out of it with my light foot).
Motleyfool.com shows a maximum reward/minimal expenditure point with keeping a car for 15 years. I hope to keep the next one for that long.
At the moment I can get a new 2005 HX Civic for $13.4 or I can wait 6 months or so for the Fit, Yaris, and Versa, or I can wait another year for the Opel Astra or wait for VW to bring us a Polo TDI. I have kind of eliminated a Corolla CE (too boring) and a Golf TDI (far too expensive with the GLS premium).
All the Hybrids are way out of my price range.
Whatever I get, I plan on being stuck with it for at least a decade so I want to be sure that I make a good decision. I'll have much greater peace of mind with a Honda or Toyota.
The reason is simple: tailpipe emissions. Remember, diesel exhaust not only has the normal oxides of nitrogen, sulfur dioxide, and unburned hydrocarbons, but also diesel particulates that can be very damaging to lungs like second hand smoke from a cigarette. That's why the USA has very strict rules about diesel exhaust emissions from automobiles, hence the reason why won't see diesel cars on a large scale in the USA until the arrival of low-sulfur diesel next summer, which will allow the use of a new generation of diesel exhaust catalytic converters that also double as diesel particulate traps.
The very biggest problem with the Echo was one mentioned recently: put in the stuff everyone wants (which is now standard in every Scion: a decent CD stereo, A/C, PW/PL/PM) and it cost MORE than a similarly equipped, higher-powered Corolla. What the heck was that idiocy on Toyota's part?
Yes it also looked like a ridiculous egg, and everyone attributes its lousy sales to that, but I think price had more to do with it.
You just KNOW that Toyota is going to trade on its good name when it prices this thing - the fact that it is a Toyota, not a Scion, will probably mean that 5-door Yaris's will go for $1000 more on the sticker than similarly equipped xA's. Which should still put them under the Matrix, their best competition in the Toyota universe.
And I suppose that when the new Corolla arrives in 18 months, it will move up in price and equipment to allow the Yaris line to grow, which will mean Corollas begin to get pricey. Just look how pricey Civics get now, which is no accident - the Fit arrives in the spring. My bet is that 2006 is the only model year of the Civic DX, after which the least expensive Civic will be the LX at almost $17,000.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There are 4 trim levels: 3-door CE, 3-door RS, 5-door LE and 5-door RS.
All four have electric-assisted steering.
The 1.5 VVT-i engine is now rated ULEV 2 and produces 106 hp.
Two transmission choices: 5-speed manual and 4-speed "super ECT" automatic
ABS brakes with EBD are standard on the RS, optional on the CE and LE.
Fuel economy is down slightly by about 1 mpg for the auto and 2 mpg for the manual (combined city/highway).
Go to www.toyota.ca for more details
In Canada, we do get at least one more diesel: the Smart fortwo. It's not the cheapest for what you get (they start at $16.7K Canadian), but 60 MPG is an entirely achievable figure (I've seen people getting 70+ on the mbcanada.com forums) and it's of course going to be easy to park.
That said, I'd almost like a diesel Yaris more. Not as attention-getting, but darn it... it has back seats! I haven't heard when the Smart forfour will show up in Canada yet.
Yaris is pretty basic - I figure by the time you add in power windows and A/C (two items that will probably be installed options in EVERY SINGLE one sold here), the weight will be approaching 2425, 2450 lbs, something like that. Which is a fair amount for a 106 hp engine to be hauling around. Fast, it won't be. Probably slower, in fact, than the xA/xB. But ahhh, that great gas mileage! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Wind-down windows I could maybe see, but even then I will bet they are rare, while most cars will be equipped with a power package.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I noticed that the only differences between the canadian 3-door CE and 5-door LE (apart from the number of doors!) seems to be the presence of power mirrors, power locks and rear wiper as standard equipment on the LE contrary to the CE.
Now, OTOH, if they were to make a plentiful supply of base cars without options, I would be happy without P/S in such a small car. Just one more thing to be an expensive repair later in the car's life.
I do think a CD stereo should be standard - how much more expensive than an AM/FM stereo can that be? I notice that one of the Korean cheapies (is it the Accent or the Rio?) has a 172 watt CD stereo standard this year, but A/C is still optional. And that, in an $11K car.
I figure the Canadian Yaris CE is a little below the level of equipment Toyota wants to offer as a base car in the U.S. nowadays, given the high level of standard equipment in the Scions.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Maybe A/C should be optional in cars in this class, not only because it is a fairly expensive addition to the car but also because these little engines do feel the strain of the compressor. I do think in anything bigger than about a liter and half, A/C should be standard these days.
As for the Accent, what was the base price of the '05? I am sure the '06 will undercut the xA by at least $1000 for base price.
Toyota adds lots of little whoopdedoos to its cars that could be safely left out for a car in Yaris' class, like outside temp gauge, map lights, leather wheels and shifters, etc. It would be nice for the RS to come over with that stuff though. I wonder what the top of the price range is going to be? Maybe $18K for a fully loaded 5 door RS? That would be about right - below the bottom of the Prius range, and a couple thousand lower than a fully loaded Matrix.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That will be pretty close, since the MSRP of a ''06 Rio with ABS is about $12.9k and the MSRP of a '06 xA with side bags/curtains is $13.9k. The Accent should be priced close to the Accent with similar equipment.
Personally I would never go for a Yaris for $18k. That's Civic/Mazda3 territory, or for thousands less a Rio5, Fit, or even Spectra5 or Elantra 5-door.
-Andrew L
Anybody know what's up with that?
It would be a really bad move not to offer them in Canada. I hope that's not what they are doing...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What's up with that?
Canadian Corolla = 7.1/5.3 (40/53) - Manual
Yaris uses less fuel to go 100km 6.9l vs 7.1.
That just makes no sense. Unless I am reading it wrong.
For the Corolla (Auto): 29/38 EPA, 20/39 CR, Overall CR: 29
For the Echo (Manual): 34/41EPA, 29/46 CR, Overall CR: 38
Nice to see that all models will get the tach in Canada. It appears that the CE and LE will be in that white light we see in many of the newer cars these days while the RS will have a sporty orange colour. ABS remains an RS standard but gets kicked off the LE and CE into an option. (Package B?). Oddly enough someone mentioned they ordered a copper orange metallic RS and I don't see that as a colour option. But hey look power steering is standard on the CE model now.
The interior of the RS is very nice, makes me want to go for it. And gas consumption is up but come on at 6.9L/100km in the city, it still beats the pants out of the competition. (Saturn ION bragged that they can do an "awesome" 9.0L/100km in the city).
Guess we will have to wait a few more days....
Barney
BTW, I would be very interested in the Copper Orange Mica color on a small new rig from Toyota/Scion. It would look cool on their new small car body designs IMO. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick