By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
And, as it turns out, the $2,400 sport exhaust that I would not have ordered is one of my favorite options. You may find the full leather to be the equivalent for you - it does look very nice.
(1) The $500+/- 5mm wheel spacers are an option on a Carerra S, regardless of what wheels and tires you get for the car. My friends 911S coupe with wheel spacers has the identical "Carerra S" wheel as mine with the identical 295 series P-Zero tire. It is possible to see the difference only when the cars are parked side by side.
(2) The Carerra S wheel easily accomodates both the 295 and 305 series tire. I believe it is the identical wheel that is used both on the C2S (295) and C4S (305). I was offered either 295's or 305's when I replaced my rear tires several weeks ago.
(3) While it might be true that most dealers will swap your wheels for whatever you want, it will likely be at a significant expense. I prefer the "Classic" 5 spoke wheel to the Carerra S. A "nominal" $490 option when ordering a new car. My dealer quoted $1,800 on my car, plus a two week wait for them to get the wheels and mount/balance the tires. I checked 4 other Washington DC area dealers and they were all higher. Two essentially said they would charge me their dealer cost on the classic wheels and tires ($5,200 for the full set) and then give me a credit of $2,000 - $2,500 for my (brand new) trade-in set, reulting in a net cost of $2,700 to $3,200! If you have different experience/info, let me know.
(4) According to my dealer (former racing team engineer) the performance difference between 295 and 305 is negligable. Consider that the base C2 has 18" 265 rear tires, and it's no slouch with respect to handling. At the 19" 295 vs. 305 level it is about looks. The difference in the brand/type of tire is far more significant than the extra 10mm of tread width. Michelin seems to be rated slightly ahead of Pirelli; both are way above Continental.
a)the spacers are not compatible with the 19" Turbo or the 19" Carrera Sport wheels as they are 11.5" wide. The spacers place you on the same offset as these two wheel options, which if you choose one of these options, come with
the 305 tires. I am surprised your dealer did not tell you the wheels were wider with these options.
b)I agree with you that you can put the 305's on the standard 11" wheels with no problems, but obviously Porsche's engineers would disagree or they would not have matched them with 11.5's. The upgrade for one of these options is about $850.00 which easily covers the cost of the spacers and larger tire.
c) The performance difference in the 305's is not only the slightly larger footprint, but the compound is different, but there is a trade off in that they do not last as long. I can also tell you the wider the tire, the more drift you get on routed highway lanes.
d) There is a reason Brumo's is the Number 1 rated dealer in the country although they have never been Number 1 in sales. They have their own race team and race track. Hurley Hayward is on the staff at Brumos, and test drives every new car prior to delivery. They stock all of the wheel options and will swap anything you want on a new vehicle before delivery, using the normal option price, less the agreed upon discount on your deal. Hennessy and Ellis in Atlanta will also. I agree, this is not D.C.
e) I agree with you, my preference was the Classic, but I did want the 11.5 and went with the Turbo because of the powder coat grey to hide brake dust.
Anywhere between 30-100mph Saab Aero is one of the fastest performers on the road. It is only in 100mph+ is where the 911 will catch up to the Saab and eventually overtake pretty much any car.
Needs prove?
Watch this BBC's Review of Saab, the last minute mentioned Saab outperforms Porsche
0-60 and 0-100mph numbers are great but this kind of performance is not practical unless you're on a racetrack.
The overtaking power and peformance from 40-75 is more practical and useful for everyday driving and enjoyment. This is the heart and soul of the Born from Jets Saab (High Output Turbo) Aero and Viggen series.
The most impressive part? The Saab Aero gives you this kind of performance in a 4 cylinder front-engine, front-wheel drive, in a sedan form. WOW and it outperformed Porsche 911 Turbo in overtaking performance. One thing for sure Saab knows how to turbocharged its engine, secondly Saab's Aircraft heritage must somehow played a role in making Saab one of the fastest overtaking performer on the road and thereby so fun to drive.
"I agree with you that you can put the 305's on the standard 11" wheels with no problems, but obviously Porsche's engineers would disagree or they would not have matched them with 11.5's."
"Porsche engineers" put 305's on the C4S models using the standard 11" Carrera S wheel.
"The performance difference in the 305's is not only the slightly larger footprint, but the compound is different, but there is a trade off in that they do not last as long."
The "compound" on the 295's and 305's is identical in the Pirelli P-Zero Rosso's and Michelin Pilot Sports. There is no difference whatsoever in expected treadlife. The cost difference between the 295's and 305's is between $15 and $20 per tire (less than 5%). I did plenty of research on this - down to getting the manufacturer's technical specifications - when I was trying to figure out what to replace my rear tires with, after learning the P-Zero's in 295 width were out of stock, nationwide. As it turned out, Porsche NA had stockpiled some and released 2 to my dealer at a price $30 less than Tire Rack, so I took them. But I was about to go with 305's.
As far as "drifting" and overall performance, it sounds like you would be able to tell the difference between Pirelli's and Michelin's. I assume you got the latter?
I'm not sure where Top Gear gets that 40-75 mph in 2nd gear comparison data, since the 997 Turbo 6-speed redlines before 75 mph in 2nd gear. If the Saab doesn't, it's got some pretty wacky gearing. In any event, in my "everyday driving and enjoyment", I'm allowed to shift gears. If you want to take any car made by Saab and put it up against a measily 911S in a 40-75 mph or 30 to 100 mph run, I'll put my keys up against yours.
As for the "Born of Jets" advertising campaign, I don't want to burst your bubble, but the two companies are completely unrelated today. Even Jeremy held a chuckle when he mentioned that the jet is powered by a Volvo engine. A friend of mine here in DC is general counsel for Saab Aerospace NA. He drives a BMW.
The video was entertaining and I'll thank you for that. Unfortunately, even with about $800 worth of tire rubber burned up trying to plow the FWD Saab though the course, the end result was 2 seconds behind a Honda Civic. But I'm sure the Civic driver didn't have as much fun.
Lest you think I'm picking on Saab, absolutely not. My neighbor has a 900S that appears to be about 15-20 years old. It keeps going and going. Paint looks like crap, gets a flat tire about once every other month and sounds like the muffler is about to explode. But the car refuses to quit and he still enjoys driving it.
Saab turbocharged engine is among the best in the automotive industry, providing exceptional acceleration at low to mid-range rev - 258lb/torque, 350Nm available from a wide range of 1800rpm to 4500 rpm in its stock production car. If there is any room for improvement on the Porsche 911, Porsche engineers will find it worthwhile to research Saab's turbocharged technology.
Take a look at this article below.
Trollspeed article
"The engine revs at ear-splitting levels. Although the sound is deafening, if you listen carefully, there's a perfect rhythm within the din, which, as the rpm climbs, becomes the noise of pure performance. Then, in an instant, silence as the DynoJet comes to a halt. All eyes are directed to a chart on a computer screen. The numbers show 760 hp at 5800 rpm--impressive, to say the least. As surprising as it is impressive is that the car tested isn't a modified twin-turbo 996, Ferrari Maranello F1 or Lamborghini Murcielago. Quite the contrary. Though it outputs horsepower comparable to any of the world's top supercars, the car in question is a Saab."
I checked out the tire manufacturers specs and see that Michelin recomends installing the 305's on 10.5-11.5 inch rims and the 295's on 10-11 inch. Pirelli recommends 305's on 10.5-11 and the 295's 10-11. So I wonder if Porsche puts any 305 Pirelli's on the 4's. It is interesting the Pirelli 295 is slightly larger than the Michelin, .1 inch taller and .1 inch wider taking one less revolution per mile. The 305's from Michelin are .3 inches taller than the 295's and .3 wider. .3 of an inch is noticeable. They also take 11 revolutions per mile less than the 295's.
Did you consider the Bridgestones when replacing, they would probably be my choice.
I did not consider the Bridgestones, as they have a very checkered reputation. I had OEM specified Pole Positions on my S2000, and they were rated fairly well. But the Potenzas on my TL 6-speed sucked and I was told that they wer in the same league as Continentals (meaning poor) with respect to larger size performance tires. Almost every serious enthusiast I have asked rates the Michilens #1, the Pirellis a close #2 and everything else not worth considering.
Get real. The only thing the Saab does faster than just about any other European or Japanese car is DEPRECIATE.
My nephew, in the spirit of being open minded, considered the Saab in his most recent purchase of a 335i. There is absolutely no comparison of the performance of the FWD Saab to the 335i. The BMW is not just quicker in all measurements, but handles like, well a RWD BMW. After also trying out a Saab convertible, it was determined that a picture of it should be placed in the dictionary as a definition of "cowl shake". But what was really eye-poopoing was how much a Saab depreciates the day you drive it off the lot. Being that my nephew was being considered for an overseas job assignement, he did the 1-2 year depreciation estimates on all of the cars he was considering and the Saab came up dead last on that list, in spite of being one of the less expensive to purchase.
If Saab's midrange acceleration is its strong point, and that's what you really like, fine. But don't ever drive a twin turbo BMW 335i for comparison or you will feel very silly even suggesting that the 911 comparison.
And, for the record, my 911 Turbo does indeed redline at under 75 mph in 2nd gear. So whatever comparison that was being referred to in Top Gear, I think was just thrown in for fun. I have 520 ft lbs of torque from about 2,500 rpm on. You don't really want to race, do you?
Enjoy your Saab for what it is, not what it isn't. And its performance is not underrated.
P.S. I too have nothing against Saab and actually briefly owned an old Saab Sonnet - their classic sports car form the 60's. 0-60 in about a half an hour, but it was a fun alternative to an MGB until someone plowed into the car in a parking lot and the damage proved fatal.
> keep engine below 4000rpm, vary speeds (how long should i keep this up?)
> for the first 1000 miles, run it 20-30 minutes minimum each time
> rev the engine (no more than 4000 or so) and let off on gas
any other suggestions?
Comment on tires: I would quickly check in with the various Porsche enthusiasts boards on the Internet before using 19" tires...just a precaution, probably groundless at this point in time, based on the serious 996 problems with "oversize" tires.
Also, you have the oil temperature guage to check to make sure you've run the car long enough. With warm ambiant temperature, 15+ minutes should be enough to reach full operating temperature and have it there for 5+ minutes.
I've not heard the suggestion of hard acceleration to 4,200 rpm as Mr. Shiftright suggested. The car has gobs of power, so if you "put your foot into it", you will need to be careful as it will be very easy to run it past 4,200 rpm. I wasn't timid about accelerating during the break in period, but I didn't stomp on it either.
Also, not sure what the 19 "oversize" tire comment is about. The 997 "S" models all come with 19" wheels and tires standard. And a good chunk of the base models come with the upgrade. The 997 has been out for over 2.5 years and I have never heard of any problems associated with the 19" wheels/tires (but I'm not an active participant in other forums or PCCA - yet).
Enjoy your new car!!
But you know, it never hurts to hit the Porsche boards around town and see what's up, like the ones that clued people into the RMS issue a while back.
Or at least drive a car with 19"s and see what you think for everyday use.
The "RMS" issue is the rear main seal leak which was a problem with the non-Turbo/GT3 models of the 996 911. If it was going to be a problem with this car, it probably would have surfaced by now. But I'd check the records to see if the rear main seal was ever replaced or if there is excessive oil use. Any evidence of oil drips under the car is a clue as well. You should ask the dealer you get the pre-inspection at for their opinion. I have heard conflicting stories that, if caught early enough, the RMS is "only" a $1,500+/- fix. But I've also heard it can lead to a $15k engine replacement.
Is the car being sold privately, or through a dealer. If the latter, I'd try to get them to throw in an extended warranty, if possible. If the former, I'd try to drive the price down. You can buy a reasonably well equiped 2007 911 Cab for $80,000-$85,000. Half of that for a 6 year old car that probably only cost $70k or so new is pretty aggressive. I'd like to think my 20 month old 911S Cab would only deprectiate $5k a year if I held it for 6 years. But I'm already approaching 14,000 miles.
I suggest getting a bundle of "yellow sticky notes" and reading the manual from cover to cover. You will probably find a few dozen tidbits worth noting, including the break-in period of the car, and even after that period, waiting until the oil temperature is up before reving past 4000 rpm.
I can believe that 19" wheels on a 996 equiped with a "sport" suspension would be jarring, as my friend's former 2001 Turbo proved to be. But the car didn't rattle or have any suspension issues other than making occupants uncomfortable over bumpy roads.
On the other hand, the standard PASM and 19" wheels that came on my 911S Cab are surprisingly comfortable. Set on "normal", the car corners flat, but absorbs road imperfections much BETTER than the current version of my former Honda S2000 with only 17" wheels. Push the PASM button for "sport" and you will definitely feel the road imperfections, but you now have a car that is track capable and as tight or tighter than the former Turbo I mentioned.
So, again, what "problems" are you referring to relative to the 996? Actual mechanical problems, or just drivers with sore butts?
You can read more about this issue in:
Randy Leffingwell's Porsche 911 Buyer's Guide P.247, "Garage Watch -- Problems with Porsche 911 models".
quote: "Advisories issued against using 18" inch wheels on new models; while chassis is stiff enough, harmonic vibration begins cracking windshields."
I'd say on a used 996 just inspect for water leaks or for a history of windshield replacement if 18"s are on there already. If the 18's aren't on the car, dont' put them on. For the 997, I myself would check the boards and see if this issue is cropping up anywhere.
You know, it's probably just a small percentage of cars, but enough to get noticed by the "tribe" and publicized.
I'm also not sure if the turbo engine has to worry about RMS leaks--I'd have to call around to know that....I have been told by Porsche engine builders that there is really no cure for it other than block replacement but also that it isn't by any means inevitable that an engine will do it---if it doesn't happen early, seems like you're fine. If it happened early and you got a "fix", that may or may not work in the long run, is my understanding.
There's a Porsche 1999 TSB on windshield stressing I believe but that's old history for a 997 owner!
Good grief, with all of those 100% mark-up items you added to the car, $2,000 off was the best they could do? I guess it's only money, but given that your gave dealer got $8,000+ more than mine would have sold the car for, you have every right to expect the royal treatment when it comes to post purchase service. Enjoy your car - how many miles so far?
HOWEVER.
We really can’t compare wheels sizes with 997 and earlier 911s because the tire diameters of the 997 have increased for the first time since 1965. In addition the 997 suspensions are totally different.
Comparing stock rear tires, an 18” 997 tire has more sidewall than an 18” 996 tire: 106 mm vs 85.5 mm respectively. In addition the rear tire diameter on the 18” 997 tires is over an inch bigger vs. the 18” 996 rear tires.
The 18 “ wheels on the 996s suspension yielded a very stiff ride as Shifty alluded to. As a matter of fact, I find the 17” wheels on the 996 Carrera to have a stiffer ride than the 19” wheels on the 997 Carrera S with PASM set to Sport. This is not to say that the 997 with PASM doesn’t handle well. The electronic damping does its job in maneuvering but the shock damping compensates for the low profile tires on the 997s. This is why there is all of this talk about smooth 911s that don’t rattle the teeth, a newfangled idea that always cause me to shake my head.
Hey bons that is a very cool article
I'll repost it again.
Saab 0-60mph in 2.3 Seconds
"...All eyes are directed to a chart on a computer screen. The numbers show 760 hp at 5800 rpm--impressive, to say the least. As surprising as it is impressive is that the car tested isn't a modified twin-turbo 996, Ferrari Maranello F1 or Lamborghini Murcielago. Quite the contrary. Though it outputs horsepower comparable to any of the world's top supercars, the car in question is a Saab..."
Can we stop talking about Swedish built Saturn's and get back to Porsche now?
Amen.
I find out who the guy is and start talking to him. He tells me how he takes the car to lots of tracks up and down the east coast when he gets a chance. He tells me that the seats are European 911 seats and that they don't move when you corner hard.
Then he tells me that as nice as it is, when he runs it around the track it is no where nearly as fast or engaging to drive as his (former) heavily modified 944 Turbo which weighed in at less than 2500 lbs (with the interior gutted) and pumped out over 400 horsepower!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I'm not in the market for either car at the moment. I had the pleasure of driving an '89 944 Turbo about 14 years ago. One of the fastest cars I have ever driven to date! I loved it!
If things go right and the stars align for me, my first Porsche will probably be a used Boxster in a few years. Then I'll step up to a 911 long after that!
I attended the Concours D'Elegance car show in Greenwich, CT this past Sunday. Of the many simply beautiful cars there were a number of really sweet looking 911s. The had an '07 GT3 RS, a '79 911 SC, an '88 930 Turbo among other perfect Porsches. Of course in Greenwich, CT a 997 is almost pedestrian. There were a few gorgeous examples in the parking lot!
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
The simple fact of all matters regarding Porsche is: Whatever the hooplah surrounding any situation regarding Porsche, the 911 ( presently the 997 ) is a kick in the keister to drive and purchasing a quality, clean , pristine 911 gives you more than just a fast car, it give you history. Hitler had a good gig going. I should give a [non-permissible content removed] if some [non-permissible content removed] wants to race me. A one time not so eloquent statement once made about the 911 regarded it as a rear engine, [non-permissible content removed] slot car. I agree, Zuffenhausen her I come! Anytime I get to to drive my 2006 C2S , I really am enjoying the experience. Those who hope at one time to own a 911 are where I was once at the age of 18. Now 57, I have owned 4 Porsches and am living the dream. I love my car.... Porsche is more than just a car , it IS a dream,,,,
2006 C2S Coupe Carrera White, sand beige full leather, Bose, 6CD changer ( okay a waste! ) Carrera Classic Wheels, heated seats, electric seats, black mats, multi-function leather steering wheel , auto-dimming mirrors, rear ensignia deleted ( I know it's an " S" , and it's a cleaner look ) BEST OF ALL I OWE ZIP, NADA, NOTHING, NEILCH, NIEN, ..PAID CASH, NO MOTHLY CAR PAYMENTS ....YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Enjoy your cars!
Chromedome
These cars are not hard to find, so you don't have to jump at the first one you see either.
As for the 18" wheels, most of the complaints were excessive creaking and cracking noises at the windshield and the rear windows, from chassis flexing due to the 18" wheels. So if you hear no such noises over rough roads, then you're okay. As for vibration, I've heard and read mention of it but can't get any details beyond a kind of "rumor" about that. Could be it's so rare as to be dismissed as likely.
I agree entirely. I have a few more years on you (about to turn 63) and one more Porsche, just acquired my 5th. Had a '69 911 back in the early '70s, then a new 914, then a '73 911 targa, then nothing for 25 years. Got married, bought houses, put 2 kids through college, etc. Leased a 2000 Boxster new and drove it for 3 years, then got out of the program again. About a month ago I picked up a 2004 C2 cab with 17,500 miles on it.
I think I could win the part of the Cheshire Cat in an Alice in Wonderland performance. The feeling and enjoyment are almost beyond words. Did I get the best deal on the planet? Probably not. Did I pay too much? Probably. Practical? No way, shape, or form. Trunk space is an absolute joke. But I got a car with almost 2 years of warranty left on it; got it from a Porsche dealer with whom I have done business with in the past, and a service manager whom I trust implicitly.
Atlas Gray, black top, black interior, BOSE upgrade (waste of $$$, I want to hear the mechanicals), bi-xenons, heated seats, 18" wheels with color crest centers, and not much else.
So far it has been outstanding. I'll worry later about where I'm going to get the $1,000 for new tires next year. Unlike you I did not pay cash for it so I am looking at car payments. But, the house is paid for, the kids are out of college, my retirement is secure, I can handle a car payment.
If this is my mid-life crisis, what a way to go!
Congrats , and enjoy your car... ain't life great!
Chromedome
so far, so far. just got to those PSA test numbers looking good!
I have a good friend, a younger man, who enjoys fast cars and in our discussions always states that he uses his car in a manner for which is was built. ( He scares the crap out of me when I'm the the right seat ! ), he holds the edge on safety..reasonably close anyway. Taking his heed, I warmed up the old 997 yesterday and went to my favorite, cop-less stretch of road and pushed it. Running through 2nd and 3rd, trying to come as close as possible to redline to see what my C2S was capable of, I went over a bit, maybe to 7600 rpm and the rev-limiter kicked in....boy the engine just died and re-engaged at 6800rpm.. Has anyone ever done that before...guys??? I'm sure the limiter is there for that reason... I've never experienced that before.
Chromedome.
And it is, in fact, unnecessary to eek maximum performance out of the car. As the host pointed out, peak power in any gear comes before redline. The practice of pushing the car a little past redline was used in early 911's that were 4 and 5 speed manuals, in order to increase the rpms for the higher gear you were shifting into. But with the perfectly geared 6-speed in the 997 model, shifting at 6,800-7,100 rpms puts the next gear in its entry point sweet spot for maximum acceleration.
You will not find any accomplished Porsche driving instructors hitting the rev limiter on their way to track times that you or your friend couldn't come close to matching.
For someone who, if I'm not mistaken, meticulously takes care of their car and drives it sparingly to keep it looking perfect, running the rpms up to 7,600 past the rev limiter is a ill conceived way to "see what the car can do". That manuever will also show up on a computer readout of the engine and, frankly, I would never buy a car that had been rev limited, no matter how clean your interior and wheels were. Did you do any damage this one time - unlikely. But Porsche engineers put the redline there for a reason - and give you the ability to achieve maximum acceleration and hit top speed without exceeding it. You wouldn't run into a wall to test your airbag system. Running the engine to 7,600 rpm to test the rev limiter isn't a whole lot smarter.
I don't quite understand the relationship between my keeping my car clean and using the car, whooo edgy! If anyone had an intention to actually see if the rev limiter would function, it certainly would not be me. It was a mistake on my part. I can't see anyone here on this forum at some time or another not having the rev limiter kick in in 1st gear at least once. Oh well...logically if you have driven the car 400 times and reached red line 399 times your warranty would go void...they put the rev limiter there for a reason and it is most likely at a point relatively far from engine damage, unless you over-rev on a DOWNSHIFT! Have you ever missed a shift?
The rev limiter is there for a reason... just like child resistant caps on a prescription medication vial... it's used before damage occurs. If it's chronic it's a problem. The people at Porsche are smart and I'm sure there is a great deal of latitude between cut off and damage. I am sure that I never mentioned in my post that I was running a test...I was looking for info because it was unintentional.
See ya!
Chromedome
I am quite sure that accidentally hitting the rev limiter once or twice would not harm the engine on a 997 C2S. But, by the same token, considering that Porsche gives you an extra 400-500 rpm to play with past redline, it's probably prudent to take care to avoid it.
P.S. One of the reasons I like the 997 GT3 so much is that it has an 8,400 rpm redline that you can easily anticipate. If you have trouble staying within 7,200 rpm on a C2S with 295 ft lbs of torque, try a 997 Turbo with 520 ft lbs. The GT3 is a fun car to drive if you like life above 7,000 rpm.
I did some research on rev-limiters and how the DME records these issues. Porsche reads the DME report and the records illustrates the number of ignitions starts, miles , hours driven and Stage 1 through 6 " over-revs. Stage #1 are over-revs protected by the rev-limiter...hypothetically these are not the damaging type since they do not exceed the " protected range" . The rev limiter kickes in at 7300 rpm. Stages 2 through 6 are the over-revs due to a downshift mistake...these can be engine damaging, since there is no fuel shut off. The DME record allows a judgement to be made in the stage 1 area of the over all treatment of the vehicle and when it happened. Obviously if you have 400 ignition starts and you have had a rev-limiter shut off 275 times, you are mistreating the vehicle. Porsche North America would be contacted by the dealer to decide on any warranty issue if there was a pattern of misuse. I just didn't think Porsche put the rev- limiter there as a brain fart. They are protecting these cars for non -professional drivers like myself... this issue is unlikely to come up again on any of my posts. Period.
Chromedome