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Comments
rob: hard to tell with the base Impreza since different options were available.
swampy: most measure success in sales volume, or market share. Subaru's has been climbing. You could also look at sales growth, or even the supply (60 day is ideal in the industry).
We have not heard forecasts yet, I think pricing will be key, but if they price it right it should sell about 50k per year, maybe 40k. It will not beat the Outback.
Yes, I also noticed the small gas tank.
curb weight is pretty high at 4200+ lbs
225 lbs lighter than the MDX. And it has a timing chain, not belt. And lots of stuff is standard that costs extra on the MDX. But pricing is key.
If Jim buys some other Subaru I'm sure they are perfectly happy with that.
Will check on the telescoping wheel (or lack of it).
-juice
-juice
Juice:
Why would anything that looks good has to be boring? I might be wrong with my comment about the nose but that was my first reaction. I owned 4 subarus for the past 17 years and always been a loyalist. I'm just curious how well this car will perceive by outside the subaru circle?
Jack
Most SUVs are ugly. Let's agree on that. You have two boxes, boom, SUV. No real design to them. So any attempt to innovate must break that mold somewhat.
Any how, a list of things that distinguish this from the Pilot that I copied from another thread, just in case you think they're the same:
* heated seats
* heated mirrors
* wiper de-icer front and rear
* VDC/VTD 45/55 rear bias full-time AWD
* 18"x8" rims with 255/55 tires
* fog lights
* 2nd row 40/20/40 back rest split (center folds)
* 9" DVD
* Moonroof standard
* timing chain
* Deep tinted windows
* turn signal in mirror
* MP3 capability
* Aux input
* projector beam headlights
* electro-luminescent gauges
* Sport Shift
* Subaru has a longer wheelbase (surprise)
* 3rd row can fold without removing head rests
* dual zone ACC
* dual A/C (does Pilot have this?)
-juice
As far as the Pilot goes, I believe they are recently offering heated seats, and a moonroof is standard on the EX-L model. I think that's it though.
Why haven't I seen more comparisons to the Murano? Appearance-wise, along with the sporty pretentions, seem to make these pretty close competitors, though the B9X has a distinct advantage with the 3rd row. Despite some controversial styling, seems to me the Murano is doing well (simply based on how many I see on the road). Certainly the Subaru is no more controversial in styling than the grinning face of the Murano?
You'll have to let us know your impressions of the rear bumper though. From the pictures, it seems very tall to me; dare I say - Aztek-ish?
It'll really come down to pricing. Despite the feature/equipment advantage over the Pilot/Highlander, I'm not sure most will pay too much more for the Subaru. And I do think, right or wrong, that it will be cross-shopped more with those than the luxury siblings.
Have fun!
2025 BMW i5 - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2025 MB GLE450e - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
A feature list is not what sells cars.
Sly
The press room may have been packed (again normal, they all need to report on this new direction for Subaru), but it sure didn't sound too enthusiastic. I watched the video again tonight, and when they unveil the car, no one is clapping until the poor sob exclaims: "Isn't she beautiful?!". And even then, the clapping seemed only half-hearted to my ears.
Sly
Sly: 18" rims, rear AWD bias, and sporty character don't sound like a Taurus to me.
OK, SHO maybe. Just maybe.
Got one scoop from an insider - GM was the one that forced the name change. B9X was too close to 9-6X, the name Saab will use. Voila, Tribeca in the name. B9 Tribeca is plenty different from 9-6X.
Funny, no? And SoA has pretty much declared the name final, remember?
-juice
I wasn't comapring the Tribeca to a Taurus. I was talking about people who compare the Tribeca's equipment list to other SUV's to say it will be successful. I was comparing that to the car ads that compare price and features with the Camry/Accord.
Obviously people don't care that a Ford or GM has more features and is cheaper, since the Camry and Accords continue to be segment leaders year after year.
And by the way the buzz on price is definitely mid 30s. Some folks said $45k and that is not going to happen, fortunately.
-juice
Am I the only one who thinks it looks like a much better Porsche Cayenne!
I have not follow the hundreds of prior posts, but I believe the pricing is still unknown. If this is priced at around the range of Highlander/Pilot--I think it will be a HIT!
Only one weakness is the lack of a manual stick shift! SPORTSHIFT is just not going to cut it for me!
Sportshift is better than most.
-juice
Mark
I like the looks inside and out, but the front end is iffy in some of the photos - depends on the angle or the photoshop?
Like I said a few weeks ago, I think this car's niche is between the Pilot/Highlander and the MDX/RX. It can't touch the RX at this time (it'll take a few years at least to build the near-luxury panache) and the new MDX comes out of the gate this year... so, it's a good alternative to the Pilot/Highlander/Murano. Everything else is a Subaru pipedream.
My 2001 LLBean (69K) never gets more than 20 mpg - and often gets 18-19. It was $28K - $400 over invoice at the time. It's acceleration has diminished of late - even after a 65K tuneup. Don't see how the B9X will get more mileage and have any type of pickup. The numbers just don't add up....
As for the projected price... I just bought a base MDX (2004 in early Sept.) for $33K - $300 under invoice. It is a Major leap, MAJOR, over the Outback. No comparison whatsoever. So, with the B9X having the same engine, just doesn't add up.... unless the B9x goes for near invoice out of the box.
Anyway, hope they price it right...that's the key. I'll test drive it. Our LLBean has been extremely reliable to date.
Drove home in a snow storm today and got the good old Subaru differential smell...made me remember when it was brand new and I thought something was wrong with it! :-)
Can't wait to hear what the front end really looks like. Be honest. :-o
Ralph
Sly
-Brian
Ralph
I only want the 3rd row for my kids' friends, so I'm not expecting or needing adult-sized seats. I will try them, of course.
The old engine had 212hp, actually. But torque is not up all that much, and that's a concern, sure.
Still, it has more HP than the Cayenne V6. Subaru should advertise it that way.
-juice
You state "I hear ya, I'm just saying, the real difference is the sportiness. The equipment goes with the territory, i.e. it's required once you get to the mid $30s."
But in a previous post to me, in which I was pointing out the lack of torque, you talked about giving up a bit of performance for the sake of fuel economy...
So if the difference between this controversially styled SUV and that of the mainstreamers is sportiness, doesnt a strong motor play a part in that? At this price range (mid 30s), I think definitely buyers want a balance between economy and handling... but, given that the economy is not going to be THAT much better than the more mainstream models, dont you think the prospective Tribeca folks would appreciate NOT having to wind out the engine every time they come away from a stoplight?
A weight of 4200+ and 219 pounds at 4400 RPM does not sportiness make, in terms of an overall package, at least to me.
Joe
I am looking into the Tribeca as possibly my next SUV when my RX lease expires. I guess I am a possible convert that FHI is trying to lure in. My impressions of the car are as follows: Good exterior styling, except the front end, needs to be toned down. Great interior styling, but I will have to sit in it and see if the center stack intrudes too much into "my space". I would like to see wood instead of, or in addition to aluminum. Luxury is walnut, birch or maple, not aluminum. The acceleration of my RX is only adequate. The Tribeca is 300 pounds heavier with less torque, so acceleration will be worse. OK for a mini van, not a sport luxury SUV. I do not need the extra seats, I am not a soccer mom, but would like a much bigger gas tank instead. The Tribeca will get 17 mpg in the real world regardless of what the sticker says, so I will be filling up twice a week. Acura enlarged the MDX tank this year because it was only 19+ gallons previously. I am assuming the turning circle is good ~38 feet or less and the handling is great, will have to wait for reviews to be sure.
Overall a good effort by FHI, but my wish list also includes wood, more power (bigger engine or 3.0 turbo), and 5 passenger seating with a 22+ gal gas tank.
And, to pick nits, Subaru execs having been pushing the terms "progressive" and "premium" rather than "luxury". So maybe that means metal trim is premium and wood trim is luxury.
Chris
Sly
This will be followed by a re-designed front-grill and a bigger engine within one year. Then it should start selling reasonably well.
Sly
So yeah, I'm willing to give up a bit of straight line acceleration for a good balance of fuel economy, but performance, things like steering feel, handling, slalom, AWD traction, etc., is what I'm talking about.
Remember this is the base engine, we don't know what we'll see later on.
Pacifica looks like a van.
-juice
Infiniti FX, BMW x5 , Porsche Cayenne and VW Touareg and I believe the Nissan Pathfinder are just a few of the many that have a manual tranny.
I agree and disagree:
Agree: Fake wood is tacky in any car/SUV/Minivan.
Disagree: the styling of the B9 is fantastic--it is the equivalent of a Supermodel in the SUV segment. It would be a tragedy if Subaru neuters the boldness of the styling to reflect safe and conventional tastes(in other words medicore) .
However:
a. I like bold and innovative. I actually like the Murano and the RX-330. I however do not like the Aztec or the front grill of the B9. That's my opinion, and it sounds like many share that opinion.
b. Bold does not translate to sales.
You may like it, and that's fine. My argument is not that you shouldn't like it, nor that no one will like it. My argument is that it will not sell well. That's just a guess: I honestly hope to be proven wrong, only time will tell. Most of the best selling vehicles are not bold, they are plain and don't offend anyone's senses. That's what provides the largest appeal.
For me personally, styling is only a small part of my decision. If the car meets my needs, and the styling doesn't offend me I'll buy it. If I think it looks great then that's a bonus. But if I find it downright ugly, I might not buy it.
The tragedy would not be if they mess with the design. the tragedy would be if it doesn;t sell and they do nothing so as not to mess with the designer's work.
Sly
Love/Hate responses is usually triggered by bold design. You either love it or hate it! The fact that I hear so much love and hate about the B9 proves the magnificence of such bold styling as the B9.
Conventional styling like the highlander causes no one to become emotional( In my case the highlander puts me in snooze mode)
Maybe. It all depends on the price! If it is priced close to an MDX/RX the B9 will be toast! If priced close to the Highlander/Pilot it will be the hottest vehicle since the intro of the Outback.
1. Rear camera is in developemnt and awaiting signoff. Won't be in first year's model.
2. OnStar contract is expired as of the '04 models with no renewal pending. Its history folks.
3. McIntosh contract also expired. New stereo is a Kenwood.
4. Ipods and other devices can hook up through the input jack on the DVD Entertainment system. Full Ipod port coming the following year.
5. Spare is underneath vehicle. Is full sized rim, but the tires are temporary space savers.
6. All seats fold flat and make a cool bed. There are supposedly 6 configurations possible with seating.
7. Price? There will be seven trim models and 7 colors. The 5 seater will come in one trim at $31,999. The base 7-seater comes in at $33,999. Fully loaded goes for $39,999.
8. Navigation system cannot be added at the dealership. Must come from factory pre-installed.
9. Highway gas mileage is estimated at 24MPG, but the official rating is not available yet.
10. Mud lights illuminate the ground when the doors are opened.
11. 0-60 not rated yet.
12. There is a mystery "port" of sorts on the rear passenger side bumper. I got three guesses by three different people, but noone was sure waht it is for. One rep says for rear-cam. One says for spare release. The last thinks its a diagnostic port. Who knows?
13. Interior floor lighting illuminates the second row passenger's feet (why?). Pretty neat looking, but I fail to understand its usefulness ("bling" element perhaps?).
14. The car will be manufactured in April and be delivered to dealerships in mid to late May.
* Hopefully juice can confirm this...
Forget styling!!! Based on the prices above the B9 will be toast!!! I think most would rather drive a luxury marque SUV or save some bucks and get a Honda Pilot. Subaru should learn from VW mistakes regarding premium pricing.
So, if that isn't a selling feature, what makes it command roughly $36K in the model without the DVD or NAV?? Pipedream. They're smoking some good stuff if those are the MSRPs...unless they plan on going to $1K under invoice by summer And the invoice/MSRP spread is greater than $4K.
Plus, Subies sell better in the winter months - they spike during snow storms according to a seasoned Subaru salesman I know. He never misses a day when it snows/threatens to snow. They better not make too many until late in the year...
The RX came out in 98? And Lexus started in 1989? Subaru is almost 8 years behind the RX and 17 years behind Lexus' start?
Don't add up....
I used to sell Subarus, and talking to one of the corporate big wigs about the then un-named Tribeca a year ago, he told me there was a collective groan in the board room when they showed the grill. He said the secret name for it was "Pig Nose".
Now, I love the interior. I'm Glad subaru has relied on a contemporary look vs a more tradional.
The enginnering should be top notch quality subaru AWD & Boxer motor. No problem there.
But the styling is way off for me in a few key areas. 1 The Pig Nose. OK so Subaru hires this Italian guy that used to work for Alfa Romeo. Great! But I think they need to remind him that Subaru doesn't need to copy an Alfa Romeo design tradition to get noticed. Is this guy a one trick pony? I liked the modern looking grill in the new Impreza & Legacy, Why did this design "guru" throw a wrench in the design flow of these cars. The Pig Nose is ugly. Yes I know it is supposed to be an aircraft inspired design to reflect Subaru's legacy as an aircraft builder.
2 The rest of the body to me basically copies the Lexus RX 330. Nothing new here at all. I was expecting something radical & cool. Not this homogenized thing. I was expecting something more along the lines of the Nissan Murano.
Now, I have seen the concept designs for the hybrid Roadster and it has somehow "pulled off" the "air craft" grill.
3 But for me the Tribeca is ugly in more ways than just the grill. It's the entire body style that loses me. It seems so anti-Subaru. They seem to have decided to stop trying to convince everybody that Subaru makes damn good cars and they have a different take on design because they use a Boxer motor. The tribeca has a profile you could slap a fat V-6 into. I don't see any care to building the SUV around the boxer motor the way the Forester does. They just seem to have built a body and slapped the subaru goods inside.
Frankly I was expecting a bigger wider Outback/Forester design melding that would have the capacity of a Ford Explorer.
Then again, I haven't seen one close up either. It may be a design that will grow on me, but I doubt it. I hope this Italian guy goes away before he screws with the Legacy & the Impreza.
The B9X is wishful thinking for Subaru at the proposed price level, given the choices available on the market.
Nav is typically a $2-2.5K option, and a good DVD system is another $2-2.5K. So a $39K Tribeca is also inline with my expectations (even though I would never get those options myself).
Seriously, as someone who bought a $33K Outback XT, a $34K Tribeca does not seem out of line to me as long as I can get a good deal (invoice) on the vehicle. For another $1K, you get a lot of extra capability and room.
CRaig
I guess that is why I love the styling!I love Alfa Romeos ,although I would hate to own one with the recurring visits to a auto shop..
Can you direct us to a source or is this your anecdotal observation?
The B9 is a different story altogether. The SUV market will not be monopolized by the B9 and based on the posted prices the B9 will provide little value. The B9 can only be noticed in the SUV market if it is priced competitively. If SUbaru really thinks it can compete with Acura, Infiniti and Lexus by loading it up with luxuries(in my view quite frivolous luxuries)---good luck!!
Consider me a loyal Outback owner who appreciates the unique things about Subaru and their AWD systems (which may be lost on other buyers or just not matter). I am on my 5th Subaru. If I am in the market for a 7 seat SUV like the Tribeca, it would be an obvious choice for me just because I prefer Subaru. I'm just being honest here -- it's the way I shop for cars.
Once again, if the Tribeca can out handle the MDX and the RX, which will not be very hard, then it will stand out and not compete directly with those vehicles. If it's just another minivan-based SUV then I agree, why bother. Hopefully we will see some road tests soon, and maybe we can get a better idea on the handling and performance.
Craig
Can you direct us to a source or is this your anecdotal observation?
I am going by the lack of incentives on the Outback models, the fast moving inventory at my dealer, and the recent sales numbers Subaru reported. I don't think they could sell more Outbacks if they wanted to -- they're at full production.
Craig
Can you direct us to a source or is this your anecdotal observation?
I am going by the lack of incentives on the Outback models, the fast moving inventory at my dealer, and the recent sales numbers Subaru reported. I don't think they could sell more Outbacks if they wanted to -- they're at full production.
My interpretation of your quote was that Subaru was having no problem selling Beans and VDCs. But you are looking at the sales of all Outbacks - which start at just over $24K. Extrapolating that to infer a guaranteed sales success of a base $35K vehicle in a new category for Subaru is a bit of a stretch.
Are you sure that there are no incentives on Outbacks? Are you sure the factory is running at 100% capacity and couldn't build/sell more? IMHO, you're assuming too much.
1. Styling exterior. OK it is strange but it is growing on me. The pictures from the auto show look better than the ones I first saw several weeks ago. I have jokingly said that the 98 Forester which was my first Subaru was not really a Subaru because the styling was too conventional. This is right up there with classics such as BRAT, Bug Eye WRX (owned 2 of them), XT coupe, SVX and the first Leone models. I don't think that is the biggest problem at least not for me.
2. Interior. Stranger still but I love it. So frturistic!
3. Power. People don't buy these things as hot rods. Yes the 250 hp in the Outback with 800 or so less pounds weight is a better way to go but the hp is up there with the class leaders. All Joe shopper sees is 250 hp is more than an RX or Murano. Finally it won't be a slug. I went down from a 227 hp WRX to a 168 hp 2.5i Legacy and there is more than enough power in that car. There are not really any underpowerd Subarus.
4. I like the option of a 5 seater. Empty nesters and childess couples will like the extra storage area. I suspect that if there is only one trim level that it will be a strange bird to find on a lot and may go away after a year or so. I would like the idea of at least a 2nd trim level 5 seat. I don't like imaginary low ball cars. Remember the first year of the Forester the model with out ABS or power locks that brought it in under $20K? Wonder how many of those were actually built?
5. Mileage. Well if it gets 24 highway it at least competes favorably with the class. But that is one reason I would not be interested. One reason I went down to the Legacy 2.5i from the WRX was the 30 hwy that it gets on regular.
6. Price: Looks like the biggest problem to me. People were not ready for a $30 K Subaru when the SVX came out. Are they ready for a $40 k Subaru? All models with VDC is cool but would a car under the cost of the Outback VDC steal from its sales? I'd love to have VDC but I won't pay the 34k of the present VDC to get it. I bought all the car I needed, mileage, performance, and luxury with my 2.5i Ltd. I feel like it was a very good deal content wise at $26k. I would have prefered limited slip differential on it but in our 22" snow in December I never got stuck (even with only 5.9" of clearance so I guess I did not need it that bad.)
Would I buy one? No. First I don't need 7 seats. Second I don't want ot pay that much or have that low a gas mileage number. Putting aside those two factors my pick would be a Legacy GT but that is just me--still love my WRX's I had.
TWRX
http://www.subaru.com/content/newscm/article.jsp?file=latest_news- - _index.xml&articleId=20050105
I am almost positive that the "Subaru" side of SIA is maxxed out to produce this year's allocation of Legacy/Outback models. The only shutdown we have heard about was for the new model switchover in the spring of 04. There haven't been any shift/personnel reductions that would be associated with reduced quantity of cars. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that the production targets are not going to change.
Ask any Subaru dealer what the hot seller is and it's the Outback. A good portion of them are the high end models. I believe Fred Adcock mentioned that 25% of sales are for the turbo models. That doesn't include the 6-cylinder Bean and VDC, but it's the same price range.
My dealer, www.fitzmall.com, is moving the expensive 6-cylinder models pretty quickly, and they are actually hard to come by. We have heard of at least 2-3 people posting here that had to wait months for a VDC in their part of the country. And based on my own experience I can tell you that customers are definitely buying the more expensive models (though, I believe the mid-range H4 Ltd model is the best seller).
Whatever the number of buyers are, I don't think it's outrageous for a $34K MSRP Outback VDC wagon buyer to pay a similar amount for the Tribeca. I just don't see the problem. If someone is willing to spend $34K on a smallish leather lined AWD sport wagon, spending $34K on a larger leather lined AWD crossover doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me.
The numbers we saw were $34K for the 7 seater without Nav/DVD, but it's already equipped similar to the VDC, which means loaded.
Craig
Again, you don't know - this is a presumption.
My dealer, www.fitzmall.com, is moving the expensive 6-cylinder models pretty quickly, and they are actually hard to come by. We have heard of at least 2-3 people posting here that had to wait months for a VDC in their part of the country
Is this due to strong sales or just limited production? Again we don't know but I'd bet limited production. And doesn't fitzmall sell almost all of their cars at or below invoice?
And based on my own experience I can tell you that customers are buying the more expensive models.
And that would be a sample size of...?
Whatever the number of buyers are, I don't think it's outrageous for a $34K MSRP Outback VDC wagon buyer to pay a similar amount for the Tribeca. I just don't see the problem. If someone is willing to spend $34K on a smallish leather lined AWD sport wagon, spending $34K on a larger leather lined AWD crossover doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me...The numbers we saw were $34K for the 7 seater without Nav/DVD, but it's already equipped similar to the VDC, which means loaded.
Then why bother selling the Tribeca? Why sell a larger, more expensive, new product that doesn't offer much differentiation from a smaller, cheaper, older product? I have a feeling that the $34K may be less well equipped than people expect.
My feeling is that a $35K - $40K Subaru that doesn't bring something new, exciting, or different (but not tooooo different) to the party isn't going to be a grand slam.