Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

lemmer

It is getting better. The high bidder (the guy with 0 feedback) retracted his high bid saying he entered the wrong amount.

Mr_Shiftright

Can I spot trouble or WHAT!!

ghulet

.....I can't see ANY upside to that thing, not even as a parts car. Hmmm, not a great production year to begin with, floorboards clearly rusting through, no terribly valuable interior parts, engine is likely shot ('it may run' is a lot like saying 'I may win the lotto if I try', and about as likely), and there are virtually no usable original body parts. Buh-bye. $6500 or whatever that thing is bid up to right now is an absolute pipe dream.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the bids are phoney. The whole think stinks.

ghulet

As Miatas are fairly 'simple' cars, I don't think this is too far gone, and the price is tempting. I have the feeling those pictures are not of the actual car, though.

http://chicago.craigslist.org/car/87430750.html

Oh, Fintail!!! I suspect this is 'too far gone' (at least in terms of money you'd have to put in versus money you'd get back out!), despite the owner's assertions to the contrary. Could be a decent parts car for the price, though:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/car/87420902.html

andre1969

at least it looks like the body's still solid on that fintail. If my Dart's body was in that kind of shape, I wouldn't be considering cutting it from the herd right now. Oops, that reminds me, I have to call that dude back! I did call him and left a message, but then he called me back and left a message, so I haven't spoken directly.

I did tell him though, that it has about 338,000 miles on it, engine was rebuilt about 100,000 miles ago, and that it's not currently running, that I think it's the fuel pump. Considering he called me back, I'm guessing I haven't scared him off yet! If this falls through though, it's going on Craigslist. I'll probably bring it up in my Mopar Mailing list, too.

lemmer

You can get a really decent Miata for $3,500, which is probably less than the needed body and paint work on that car.

stickguy

for a change, the pictures look better than the description! But, from what he says it needs, you would do better buying th ebest '90 on the planet, since they aren't that expensive.

Don't tend to rust either, so that's odd. Must be the michigan effect.

fintail

Yeah, that fintail is too far gone to be a serious project, unless you love the cars and don't count your labor time into the costs of renovation. Really nice cars that need nothing serious, like mine, are only worth about 5K...and you couldn't get that car to be like mine for 5K.

The AC unit is worth the price, though. Good parts car. A 220 may be rare, but that's because it was the stripper 6cyl W111, single carb. The owner is not correct in saying a 220SE is "far more common"...production numbers differed on the 220/220SE by only a few thousand units. The 220S is the common model. I see really no serious rust on it, the car looks to have been stored inside at one time (fintails were not rustproofed very well, and disintegrate in harsh climates). You could do worse, for a parts car.

rorr

Might make a decent weekend toy for track events or even SCCA spec racing.

lemko

...might make a nice car for some kid to tool around in. It certainly is cheap enough. For $300, the fintail would be a good parts car.

michaellno

....but it still seems to be a bargain, especially with the parts car thrown in for free:

1986 Mazda RX-7

qbrozen

wow. seems great to me. although, i would prefer a first gen ... for the money, this seems to be quite decent.

lemmer

That would be a good little car to drive around for a while. I wouldn't put much money into it. If anything major went wrong, you could probably sell it on ebay for a $1000.

stickguy

unless it is comepletely mis-represented, seems like a heck of a good deal. of course, if they spry painted over the rust, I might take that back.

If it was local, I would drop 2K on it in a heartbeat. Even without the parts car that I have no place to put.

Only thing better would be if it was a convertible. Those are neat.

Mr_Shiftright

Actually $2,000 is dead-on market correct retail for the car.

qbrozen

Are there alot of 120K mile 2nd gen RX-7s with a rebuilt engine and tranny in your area?

Ok, yes, I admit, I'm being a wiseheimer. ;b

I just see this as one of those cars that, if its really THAT clean, and if all those repairs were done recently and correctly, its not at all easy to compare it to the other RX7s out there. Could I find another $2K RX7? Sure. Would it have a recently rebuild drivetrain and recently redone seats, etc? Most likely not.

I know you and I have discussed all of this before and we don't see eye to eye on it. But ... oh well. I like that purchase and you don't. No big deal.

Mr_Shiftright

NAH, NAH- I didn't say "I didn't like it" ....never said that....only wanted to point out that it isn't "a bargain"....it's a FAIR price for buyer and fair price for seller. That's what market correct means. Everybody happy.

Besides, AC might be blown and that could cost $$.

These cars are worth very little and are very plentiful. YES! I'd take a bet I could find you a $2,500 RX-7 that is newer, cleaner, and with working AC.

What we can't factor into the price is search time, but you can't add search time to book values.

But if you bought this one for $2,000, no harm done, presuming somebody put the engine together correctly.

So I'm really on your side on this one, more or less :P

ghulet

....I've rarely had a working A/C without putting lots of money into it on a ten year-old car (hell, on half the FIVE year-old cars I've dealt with), let alone a TWENTY year-old car, I hardly think it's even an issue, especially at $2k. With the weather we've had this year (non-stop 90s most of July, even in Chicago), I don't think I'd risk using the A/C on a car that old even if I were fairly confident it were functioning properly; too many other risks (overheating, head gaskets, blah blah blah). It's still a luxury to me, unfortunately! I also think it'd just look geeky to be driving around in an old basic RX7, windows up with the air on like some auto-diva.

Mr_Shiftright

I mostly use AC to keep the traffic noise and the stink out, but you're right, AC can put strain on an old engine. Still it does increase/decrease the car's value since there are plenty people who want it.

lemmer

Shifty,

PCA has in its classifieds a white 356B with an engine scattered throughout a garage for $7500 in Birmingham, AL (oddly enough, that is where I live). It looks really solid in the pictures the guy sent, but I am sure it needs plenty of work. My father-in-law can get parts at cost and can do a lot of the work himself at a friend's Porsche shop. He wants to make just a decent weekend driver out of it. Is it worth it?

The rest of the peanut gallery should feel free to give their two cents, also.

stickguy

If it is complete, and the bones are sound, a 356 should be a failrly straightforward assembly job, right? At least compared to a Ferrari or something!

If so, the price looks something like I would expect. The quality and quantity of the engine parts is also improtant of course.

The key to making this deal work for you is your FIL. Free labor is hard to pass up.

I usually fall on the side of buying the nice one that is already done, since it is usually cheaper than bringing a dog up to par, but in your case, that might not be true.

Mr_Shiftright

Might be worth it depending on the integrity of the body and how correct the car is otherwise.

The body is extremely important on these cars as they have no frame per se. The body IS the frame. Sooooooo, if the rust is bad enough and in the wrong places (like where the A pillar meets the floor, you can just throw the car away. It'll never be made right. Never, ever. Junk. Finito.

But if the body is solid, or maybe just has a pinhole or two in the front trunk floor or passenger floorboards, that's not too bad. You can just patch that.

As for correctness, first of all you'd better check that there isn't a 912 engine in there, which is common. That's okay, since a 356 engine IS basically the same, but the car will still be a "[non-permissible content removed]" with an incorrect engine. Actually a 912 engine would be better than the stock engine in mechanical terms but not authenticity.

Now one issue is that these engines are not easy to do correctly. If you have pro help that's great. I presume the shop knows enough not to buy cheap Japanese pistons and liners, or a "big bore" kit. These are tempting because they are so much cheaper than the German parts. But they are also not quite right. They raise the compression and your engine goes KABOOM. Even with the correct German parts, the rebuilder has to do the mathematics and actually measure the cylinder capacity with liquid measurements, vis a vis the head and head gaskets, so that the correct compression ratio is achieved. If you say flycut the heads and just slap them on there with a stock head gasket, you may have made a fatal mistake by having an engine with too high a compression ratio. You'll pre-ignite and chunk out a piston on the first long hill, sure as shootin'.

then, too, you have to consider replacing the clutch, surface the flywheel, and rebuilding the carbs ( a nuisance when old) and the generator. It would be a shame to throw old parts on a new engine. And you'll need a new engine seal and maybe new heater boxes.

Basically what I'm saying is that even with free labor, you may end up with a break even situation in terms of value (meaning you could just go buy one for the same money by the time you add up all your bills) BUT the one you buy probably won't have all new parts.

Figure a clean B coupe (the C coupes are worth more), #3 driver with a few minor chips and tatters, is worth $15,000. So if yours isn't dented or rusted and drives nice, you have $7,500 to play with. If the car is in anyway shabby, figure $12,000 total value or less.

For perspective, I just saw yesterday a very clean (no dings, dents, shiny paint, spotless interior but not a show car---a high #3, low #2) 356C coupe (with disc brakes) with a good California history, asking price $19,000.

What would I do? Personally, I'd look for a good used 912 engine ready to run, and put that in (cost you about $2,500) and then maybe rebuild the other engine over time---then plug in the original and re-sell the 912 engine.

Here in California, a good shop charges $10,000 for a thorough rebuild of a 356 engine. So really, if the car is pretty clean, to my mind it's not worth more than say $5,000 as is.

lemmer

Thanks for the free info, but you are too cheap. If I would written a client a letter with that much valuable information, I would have billed them at least $100. Maybe $200. A lawyer would likely double that.

My father-in-law is a retired FedEx engineer who does two three things for retirement. He visits my grandchildren, races his 912, and works for free for a friend who builds 356 and 911 race and street cars (he doesn't really work completely for free, he gets parts at cost and help with his car).

Mr_Shiftright

Actually my bill is in the mail.... :P

Well it sounds like Pop In Law knows his way around the block. I always try to make people look soberly at rebuilding a Porsche engine because some of them are saying "Well, I've rebuilt VW engines, same thing right?"

Nooooooo......if you built it to the specs of a VW engine it would never run right, if at all.

Part of your decision would be based I think on whether the crankshaft in the engine is any good or not. Once you have to get a new crank and do a line bore plus all the usual machine work, you are farming out a lot and hence the bills add up.

Notice how this piston set below is of the correct alloy, German made and NOT flat-topped. That's why they cost so much more than Japanese KABOOM piston sets. If you pull flat tops out of the old engine, you know why it grendaded. Porsche engines are very tough and long-lived and should not normally ever blow up under street conditions.

http://www.carquip.com/parts/356/engine/356sc/graphix/356scpc1.jpg

andre1969

that guy that was interested in my Dart came by today and looked at it. He actually seems interested, but he had two buddies with him. One of them was telling him that the car had a lot of potential, in spite of its problems, but told him that he had a lot of work cut out for him. The other was trying to find everything under the sun wrong with it, and said "would you take $200?"

So needless to say, it's still sitting. I figure that, in spite of its problems, I could easily part it out and get a lot more than $200! Heck, even the 8 3/4 rear end is probably worth more than that!

I tried to start it up, and it sounds like it turns over real strong still, but even dumping gas down the carb I couldn't get it to fire up. Anyway, I figure if this falls through, then Craigslist it is!

andys120

I wonder how much it'd cost to fix this one up?



It needs everthing but the again it's a '62 Impala HT!

Mr_Shiftright

The asking price is absurd.

Well now you can buy a clean ready to run "driver", #3 condition and/or amateur--street type restoration for around $12,000, so do the math. Sounds like a loser to me unless it were an SS 409. Perhaps, perhaps....you could turn it into an SS clone but even there theh prospects of coming out even or better are pretty slim

I'd say if it were a real and provable SS data plate car, then maybe, otherwise, I wouldn't give more than $1,500-$2,000 for this tired beater, and then I'd probably rod it for sure.

As we say: "The easy restorations have all been done by now".

bumpy

...but $1750 would be fair, I think.

http://www.bobbittville.com/SteveKirby-GMCPU-1961-FORSALE-AR.htm

Mr_Shiftright

You're being generous today aren't you?

Am I missing something? I see about $300 worth of truck here. Needs bed, tires, god knows what else. You think that engine runs? I don't. Doesn't even have a battery in it. So what are you buying here?

qbrozen

YIKES!!

For a '61? Forget it. Is this even a desirable truck? Not to me, it ain't. Find something from the 40s or early 50s and we can talk. '61? No thanks.

bumpy

The wraparound windshield is worth $600 by itself. That GMC hood is hard to find intact. The rest of the truck is in decent shape, certainly better than a parts truck, and it has the hard-to-find stuff. That V6 is hard to kill; I bet it would fire right up with a basic tuneup and a new battery.

Mr_Shiftright

Bumpy excuse me if I engage in friendly debate on this :P

If the windshield is like the rest of the truck it's going to look like sandpaper. And what's "hard to find" exactly"? I don't see a piece of trim worth .50 cents, and you can buy all the hard parts you need 'cept maybe the fenders or other sheet metal, and given the labor you'll have to expend to straighten those out and get 'em right, I don't think $300 is unreasonable for parts.

Remember this isn't a wrecking yard, that is dismantling, cleaning, storing, labeling and guaranteeing the parts, so you can't be looking at the pieces as all retail parts on a shelf ready to go. Each fender could be 12 rusted bolts and 6-10 hours bodywork for all we know.

As for the engine, you could be right or I could be right but the question is, who is more likely to be right given what we are looking at here? Besides, the owner had 34 years to kill that engine.

All I see here is outright neglect and a chicken-house with rubber tires.

If I saw a current reg on it and it started up and drove, no matter how badly, perhaps I'd up the price a bit, but AS IS WHERE IS, dead as a doornail, why gamble with your own money?

lemmer

We can't get the 356 guy to call us back.

I like this one for me:

944

andre1969

that '61 GMC truck is definitely worth checking out in person if it's something that floats your boat. I'm not all that well-versed in classic pickups, but I always liked that generation of GMC/Chevy truck.

That is, if it does start up without too much trouble (and I guess even if it turns over, that's a good sign), and as long as whatever rust there is doesn't look like it compromises the cab/frame too badly. I can't get the link to work today though, so I can't look at the pics to refresh my memory.

How much would a decent bed cost for that thing?

Mr_Shiftright

$3,000 (so far on the bid) is a bit low. These early 944s aren't worth much and you should be able to get a nice one at $4,500-$6,000 all day long. Let's see if it falls in that range. He's blowing smoke on the top speed, though. He'd be lucky to hit 125-130 mph on a windless day in the vacuum of outer space.

On the plus side, 944s are GREAT handling cars and if properly set up, can handle and brake as well as just about any stock 2005 car you can name short of $$ supercars.

ghulet

....147mph was the exact quoted top speed from Porsche brochures of the day (86-87) for the 944 Turbo. Funny how the Turbo's stats always manage to end up in a trumped-up ad for a NA 944 (usually an automatic at that!). I'm pretty sure quoted top speed of even later '80s 944s is 130, which to me is even a bit optimistic (we're talking about a car with 147hp here; oh wait, maybe that's where that 147 mph top speed figure came from!).

Mr_Shiftright

I'd guess that realistically, the maximum flat out speed on that '84 944 with LOTS of room would be, measured by radar, no more than about 121-123 mph. One would hope the new owner has the talent to go even that fast.

Perhaps the seller has evoked the 20-20-20% rule of car ads.

You are allowed to lie up to 20hp and 20 mph top speed and 20% more gas mileage.

lemmer

From my old R&T issues, I saw 8V 944 non-turbos recorded at 121 to 131 over the years, so you guys are right on.

Obviously I wouldn't be buying it based on flat out speed. In fact, I fear my wife's minivan would outrun it.

ghulet

....but as Shiftright stated, they handle wonderfully, can even be a practical daily driver as long as you don't find a needy example (clutches are expensive, and I know from family experience/allegory that A/C compressors or condensers are about $2k installed, if you feel you need air). They're reasonably comfortable, slightly practical (not for passengers, but as a hatchback, I used to load my mom's recycle in hers), nice looking, well built and get decent gas mileage. How's that for damning with faint praise? Just don't spend more than about $5k on one, keep up on maintenance but don't get crazy with repairs or trying to make one 'perfect' (there's no upside to having a trailer queen here) and you could be OK. Just don't expect it to go up in value any time too soon, if ever. That said, they're at the point where they aren't depreciating much (not as much as your average used cars, as they're mostly ~20 years old), either.

Mr_Shiftright

Exactly...badly "busted" 944s are strictly parts car. A slipping clutch and bad AC compressor and one small dent is about a total on the car, sad to say.

The 944 Turbo is the one you want. You can build them up over 300 HP and run with the wolves.

lemmer

Ok, I'll bite.

If a nice 944 is around $5000, how much for a nice 944 Turbo?

I am the current high bidder on the 944 in question at $3350, but I bet his reserve is way higher. What condition is a car like this 1-5?

Mr_Shiftright

Nice 944 Turbo or Turbo S probably $9,000--$12,000.

944 S2 cabriolet (nice car) maybe $14K-$20K

The car being bid on, probably $4,000---$6,500.

Definitely a plain jane 944 early model, it's at the bottom of the pecking order/desirability.

What part of the country are you in?

lemmer

I am still in Birmingham, AL - home of the clean title.

The car is in Orlando, but I have family there that can get it checked out and trailered up to me for free.

I really like 944 Turbos, but for $9-12K couldn't I maybe squeeze into a 911 SC? And wouldn't you say that maintenance would be less on the SC? Wouldn't the SC likely hold its value better?

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, you could JUST squeeze into a really solid 911SC for $12K, and yes, it will hold value better than a "base" 944.

but the 944s are starting to creep up there (finally).

I don't know if SC maintenance is cheaper, but you'll do less of it than on a 944, so I guess in that sense, yes, it's cheaper.

If you start with a top flight 911, probably throwing $400 in the Spring and $400 in the Fall should take care of basic maintenance, and then all you have is expendables that you would have with any car----tires, brakes.

Sure if you chew through your rotors on a 911 that's more than a Dodge Omni, but the nicer you treat your Porsche the nicer it treats you. :P

lemko

...and tell your wife to do the same! I had this crazy neighbor who fought with his wife all the time. One time she was throwing eggs at his black 911 Cabriolet. Those eggs must've wreaked havoc on that black finish in the blistering hot weather.

Mr_Shiftright

ah well, love dies but possessions are forever :P

jrosasmc

So are you saying that the 944 (and 968 for that matter) is a very maintenance-intensive car if you don't know what you are doing?

Mr_Shiftright

No I'm saying it's a very maintenance intensive car if you DO know what you're doing. :P If you don't know what you're doing it will quickly become a very repair-intensive car.

But I have nothing against maintenance intensive cars, as this establishes a nice relationship between car and owner. I mean, oil and lubricants and adjustments don't have to be punishingly expensive.

It's the kind of car that you had better take care of, or else.

lemmer

The 944 bidding died out at $4550 with out reaching the reserve. They left me behind at $4450.

New "Hold 'em or Fold 'em's"

A friend wants me to go look at this one with him today. He wants to buy it for his teenage son to drive, but really to relive his own youth

He will make it look like this, so I don't know why he doesn't just go ahead buy one already done