Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

andre1969

but I like that '58 DeSoto Firesweep. I like the way the way the seller tries to build it up by saying that it has the same 350 that Christine had. Umm, yeah, they were both Mopar 350 wedges, but Christine's unit was a high-output with dual quads. The DeSoto Firesweep came standard with a 350-2bbl, and a 4-bbl was optional. HP was either 280 or 295, depending on the carb. Oddly though, the Fury's Golden Commando only put it up to 305 hp, although I'm sure it was still a much better performer.

But saying they're the same engine is like saying that the old 350-2bbl that my grandparents '72 Impala had in it is the same engine that a '96 Impala SS has! I came close to buying a car like that Firesweep back in '95. It was white with a yellow top and spear, and in better shape than that one. I could've gotten it for $900-950, and would have, but someone else had first dibs on it.

As for that Impala SS, it would probably depend on what engine it had in it. I'm too lazy to decode that VIN, but I'd guess that if it was an SS409 it would probably be worth it, but if it was a lesser model, you're looking at a real labor of love there!

andre1969

to decode that '63 Impala. It wasn't that hard...

The first digit, 3, is the model year, 1963 in this case
The 2nd and third digits are the series. 18 = Impala V-8 (no distinction for SS in the VIN, and also no distinction on engine size, just V-8 versus 6-cyl)
The 4th and 5th digits are the body style. 67 = 2-door convertible
The 6th digit is the assembly plant. B = Baltimore.
The last six digits are the sequence number. It was the 125571st car to come down the assembly line that year.

I guess there might be some other tag somewhere that might denote what engine it had, but It doesn't appear it can be deciphered from the VIN #, like newer cars can.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, so I'm the bad guy, hah? Okay, here goes:

1983 Porsche 928 found in a backyard -- you know, if the bid stays at about $2,500, this might make a great parts car. Restoration would be somewhat foolish, since you can just go out and buy a nice '83 for around $6,000, ready to go. But actually putting money in this car would be pretty stupid. If the tranny is good, that's worth something, and all those expensive parts in there are valuable--some of them actually made of un-obtanium. Car is fully priced at $2,500, maybe overpriced. I suppose you could try and drive it around, but I'd bet you a very expensive lunch you wouldn't last two weeks. These are very complex cars that do not take kindly to being submerged in someone's back yard.

1971 Trans Am -- rust bucket, undesirable year/model, busted block...yeah right.....the scrapyard is where it needs to go. You can buy this car clean running with tunes playing on the radio for $9,000, so what is the point of resurrecting this......thing.....? Would make a nice reef for fish.

1963 Impala SS --- again, the boneyard for this one. Do the math---you can buy this car, numbers matching SHOW CONDITION for $30,000. This car, with bent frame, rust and missing engine and transmission, will never attain status as a "real" SS anyway. I have a feeling the VIN plates on this car is what is being bid on. If it were a Hemi Cuda, yeah sure, do the job because you are looking at a very valuable car on the other end, but this could only be a semi-clone at best.

1958 Desoto -- no harm done at the bid of $2,150. Not worth much even fixed up and pretty, so I'd cap the total investment at around $5,000. If you Earl Scheib it and do some other cosmetics, you'd be okay on this car and you can have fun with it. So far, not a bad buy and worth fixing if you stay sober.

1989 Porsche 928 S4 -- looks like a fabulous car, but too bad it's an automatic. By 1987, they had solved all the clutch problems so this car would be twice as sweet with a 5-speed. I think he'd get his price with a manual trans. but his asking is going to be tough. If someone came by with $18,000 in a suitcase, he should take it.

Mercedes 2.3 --- awful cars, run like hell at any price. :lemon:

gsemike

Ok... so when was the last time you saw a car and thought, "man.... that's really a good deal"?

fintail

Funny thing...rumor on Craigslist was that the owner of that red 928 purchased it not long ago for 18K and is now trying to make a quick buck. I wouldn't mind that car, but I am sure maintenance on it makes a MB look like a Civic.

I think I got relatively good deals on my fintail and 126. I'm not in a hole, anyway.

andre1969

last Saturday I came dangerously close to buying another car. I was at the Mopar Nationals in Carlisle, and someone was selling a 1979 Dodge St. Regis. Now most people probably don't know what that is to begin with, and of those that do, most probably don't care. But for some twisted reason, I've always loved the '79-81 R-bodies.

Anyway, I forget how many miles it had on it, but it only had one bad rust spot, around the rear wheel opening (most of the rear wheel opening, in fact). It was light blue, somewhat faded but I've had worse, and a dark blue vinyl top. The interior was cloth with a 60/40 split bench seat, and was in fairly nice shape. It had a 360 2-bbl, which, while that probably doesn't add much value, definitely makes these cars less slug-like. Most of them only had 318-2bbls which were barely adequate. And the headlight covers were open, as the mechanism that operates them was broken. I heard someone say that the bar that twists them was taken out, but I'm sure it had more problems than that! My biggest concern was that it had a trailer hitch on it, so I wonder what kind of abuse it might have gone through. Still, I could've had it for $500.

If I really needed a car, I would've snatched it up in a heartbeat. But when you don't need another car, $500 is money that can really be spent elsewhere. Plus, you have to tag/title it, and insure it. And fix it when it breaks. And one problem with a spare car is that when it does break, there's no pressing need to get it fixed right away, so it's easy to just let it sit and get neglected.

So, in the long run, it's probably best that I didn't buy the thing.

andre1969

would that also hold true for, say, a 1963 Impala SS409 convertible? One of those would only fetch around $30,000 on the top end?

Mr_Shiftright

I have the new "Excellence" magazine which has the latest market report on the 928 from around the world, delivered by a recognized Porsche expert, and he pegs an S4 fully priced in excellent condition at $17,000. That's what it's worth. If some fool on craigslist wants to pay more, that still doesn't make that the "market", that only means one person paid too much.

Last "good deal" I found?

MY 928! Bright shiny red 1980 5-speed, excellent cosmetics and mechanicals, $25,000 in restoration work last 5 years, needed nothing....$4,500 out the door.

Now a year later I'm in a total of $6,000 and that's about what I could get for it. So I'm clean, and got 10,000 fun miles.

That's the way you want to buy 'em and sell 'em IMHO. :P

Mr_Shiftright

No, a real SS 409 would cost you maybe $38K-45 if it was automatic and probably bust $50K if it was a 4-speed. We are talking NICE cars though, not #3 street cars with amateurish work that looks good from 10 feet.

I suppose a totally correct 409/425HP SS convertible SHOW QUALITY could bust $60,000.

Being an automatic is a definite deduct though, and an SS with 283 V8 isn't going to bring 327 or 409 money, so forget that.

So you see what a hose job that eBay car is.

People don't pay Barett-Jackson money for second-rate cars with wrong engines and welded floorpans and crooked frames. Someone WILL buy the car, definitely, but if you did a quality restoration, you'd never come out whole on a "[non-permissible content removed]" car like that one.

I've seen "clone" muscle cars sell for a LOT of money, but they are drop dead gorgeous and they have all the correct parts retro-actively installed.

qbrozen

I first saw this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alfa-Romeo-Milano-3-Liter-Verde-3-0_W0QQitemZ4562629394QQca- - tegoryZ5356QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and thought, 3.0 Milanos are fairly rare (aren't they? seem to remember it being so when I was shopping around for a 2nd Alfa a few years ago). And maybe, just maybe, if cheap enough, this could be a fun car. But it does need more work than its worth, I think.

THEN I spotted this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1988-Alfa-Romeo-Milano-Verde-Garaged-not-bmw-spider_W0QQite- - mZ4562256855QQcategoryZ5356QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and thought, OK, now we're talking. How high do you think this will go with almost 6 days left? I mean, who knows what may be lurking behind a real inspection (or at least some better pictures), but if its really all there and really as nice as it seems at first glance, what is a car like this really worth?

Any bets on final bid price? I'm thinking $4500 ... but you never know what will happen when you get multiple Alfa fans together in one bidding war.

stickguy

I like the second one. Sounds like a much better bet, since it might cost more to bring the beater up to the condition of the nice one than it would to just buy the nice one instead.

makes me suspicious when someone parks a perfectly fine running car just becasue the clutch went out.

lemmer

I agree with stickguy, although I am a little suspicious of post number of the beast.

Mr_Shiftright

A clean ready to go Milano Verde is worth about $3,750 more or less. They are neither "rare" nor valuable and never will be, but for the money it's a fun car.

The "beater" for $699 is a parts car. Clutch and brake work of that nature would exceed the value of the car probably. It's not an easy job.

Only one way to buy a Milano---buy it mint and buy it cheap and have a good Alfa shop to keep it up for you. If you can stay on top of the car it should serve you pretty well.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that you could totally rely on it for a daily commuter however.

The Alfa Spiders are an older and more proven design.

gsemike

Guys,

This isn't really a project car, but since I respect you collective opiniosn, what do you think of this for a second car:

Red beemer

I'm moving to the burbs and will need a second car for my mile drive to the train. Would a 1994-5 3 series in the 100k neighborhood be a good choice? What are the things to look out for? Can I count on an unmolested example serving me reliably?

Thanks

Mr_Shiftright

Well after shoveling through the incredible horse...pucky that decorated this ad, I did manage to uncover beneath the silly talk a fairly nice little car.

1995 is a good year for 3 series. At 100K you need to watch out for, or ask about:

Was the radiator ever replaced (it usually bursts open around 50-60K)

Inspect the upper control arm bushings

Test EVERY electrical gizmo and BE SURE to check the dash illumination at night.

Make sure you really fit in this car....it's very tight if you are over about 5'10" or 160 lbs or so.

The selling price was just a bit over private party retail so no harm done.

qbrozen

There is no way I could see my way clear of spending $6400 on a 10-year-old, 100k miler Automatic 325. I mean, I spent ~$3500 on a super clean 100K mile '93 Benz 190E with the straight 6 just last year. So, to me, almost double the price for maybe, arguably, 10-20% more car is not a good deal by any means.

Personally, I'd be looking at a turbo Volvo of similar vintage for FAR less money. Or, heck, a MUCH younger car of just about any other make. I think the price on this Bimmer makes that Milano I posted look like a bargain. But, yes, I am crazy in many regards.

bottgers

Yet another beautiful concept car turns ugly once it goes into production. The Dodge Charger. The concept car (the CNG powered version) was absolutely beautiful. The production version just looks like the 300c. They ruined it!.

lemmer

Did they really armorall the radio?

fintail

I don't know where to put this, so I will also use this thread for cars that need work but are hilariously priced:

Here's another multi-color (I spot 3 different colors) 4 cyl 190, look what they want for it! A fairly pristine one might bring 3K if someone really wants it. At least this one has the right steering wheel

ghulet

...I don't think there are any '87 190Es (save the 2.3-16) selling for $4k at this point, never mind with two colors, 176k (and likely a salvage title). That guy's dreamin', that's about a $1500 car he's got there.

lemmer

It is like two cars for the price of one!

Mr_Shiftright

He's exercising his First Amendment Rights. This is protected under the Constitution but doesn't suggest a real buyer will come along. I'd say $1,000 should be more than enough--that is current "beater price" for anything that starts, stops and turns and isn't massively dented or rusted and will pass smog and drive for 5 consecutive days without breaking down.

lemmer

good MGA driver?

good Camaro driver?

Take your pick of the following two for $2,000:

64 and 1/2 Mustang

another raging pony

this does not look like an EZ fix

The Flutie Mobile! That is worth $1000s alone (note the Biturbo next to it, probably from Vinnie Testaverde or Kerry Collins)

fintail

Kind of a pretty Camaro...but boy do I hate new stereos in old cars

The 928 could sell to someone on ownership alone...but not me

andre1969

I think I'd rather have that Chevy pickup in the pic than that 1964.5 Rustang. What is that, about a '63?

andys120

from the photos, which are suspiciously obscure, whether that MGA is any good or why it's changed hands so much recently but Brit roadsters are really hot and if you were inclined to put in sweat equity it might be a worthwhile project ( I repeat might)

bumpy

64-66 Chevy. The only sure way to distinguish the year is the model badge design and location, which the 'stang is blocking.

lemmer

Somebody sent in a question about that second Mustang. That want to know if they could drive it from Georgia to St. Louis. That seems like a really bad idea.

andre1969

oh yeah, that's right, they did away with the wraparound windshield in '64-66, didn't they?

qbrozen

Is it a lighting trick, or does anyone else think it looks like obvious overspray under the fender in that one shot from the side/rear?

Seems to look OK otherwise, but without a REAL thorough and PROFESSIONAL inspection, I don't think I'd even throw as much as the current bid at it ($7100 as I write this).

qbrozen

I can't spot a single body part on that car that is undamaged.
Ouch!

Heck, for a few grand, though, I'd like to get the engine, trans, and seats from it. But bidding is already over $6K and the reserve hasn't been met!! (???)

bumpy

Yep, 1963 was the last year for the wraparound windshield. Ford got a lot of ad copy out of the competition's "kneeknocker" cabs.

Mr_Shiftright

The MGA is all wrong all the time...and being a unibody, one wonders where the light blue paint might still be lurking....light blue and orange...nice combo....wrong upholstery, wrong steering wheel, wrong color, body sits way too high for some reason, wrong trim pieces everywhere....this looks like a mail catalog botch with some Home Depot thrown in...and scarier than all that, an Alabama title, a state notorious for issuing car titles out of vending machines. Be afraid, be very afraid...

928---nice car looks like. Being owned by a former football star is worth about $1.50 in resale value. The car is what it is and should sell for whatever market is on these...maybe...$8K-10K.

Porsche 911 --- LOL! Geez, just look at that thing---it's a total, forget it. How ludicrous---an "easy fix". Price is about right, right now, as a parts car. Oh yeah, Porsche 911 cabs with a salvage title and $30,000 in damage are an EASY sell...you'll make out big on this one--LOL!

'65 Mustang --- bid at $800 is plenty already, an act of generosity. You can buy a clean 6 cylinder car for $6,000 so why bother with this wreck? If it were a V-8 convertible it'd be worth the asking price because you can restore it and sell it for $25,000 and only lose $10,000.

lemmer

Did you see the radio in the MGA? That really looks out of place.

stickguy

seems like half the old cars on Ebay are from that state, and seemingly all the junkers getting posted on this thread lately!

andre1969

in Alabama, so this might shed some insight on why so many of these "projects" come from there...

1.) Chevrolet Caprice
2.) Oldsmobile Cutlass/Supreme/Ciera
3.) Chevrolet Full-Size C/K Pickup
4.) Oldsmobile Delta 88/Royale
5.) Honda Accord
6.) Buick Le Sabre
7.) Ford F150 Pickup
8.) Cadillac Deville
9.) Chevrolet Full-Size Extended Cab Pickup
10.) Toyota Camry
:shades:

lemmer

Sorry about that. I am the guilty poster of Alabama cars. I search cars based on my location, and that happens to be Birmingham, Alabama. I guess I am hoping one day Shifty will say one of the cars I post is a screaming deal, and I can just run across town and buy it. As a weak defense, I will say the cars have a better shot at being rust free around here than in some other areas.

rorr

"As a weak defense, I will say the cars have a better shot at being rust free around here than in some other areas."

You're right.......that IS a weak defense...... :P

Mr_Shiftright

I may seem brutal on the cars because I'm taking a very cold, reptilean and economic view of them, and trying to leave sentiment out of it...and you KNOW I love MGs and Porsches. I figure if I throw in my two cents and it keeps someone from throwing good money away, well yeah, maybe I deprived them of the joy of a 5-year plan of Garage Therapy but perhaps gave them pause for thought and inspiration to a better example.

Cars like the MGA for instance, become very difficult to pawn off on someone, because old MG buyers are knowledgable....and who else but those nuts wants a 40 year old British car for a LOT of money? Not many buyers.

TRUE STORY: I once FOUND a Fiat X1/9 abandoned (during a snowstorm in Colorado). Left there by the side of the road. Nice shape, too. Person never came back (died after wandering off??). So, took the car and garaged it. Called cops. Called DMV. Placed "found" ads, put up flyers right at spot car was left.....nothing. Finally, after another 6 months, I just sent a check to Alabama and had a bona fide title in 3 weeks. Registered it to Colorado DMV and got Colorado title, no problem. Drove it for some time as a fun sunny day car.

And I could have done this with a very expensive car under salvage title, too.

Not sure if all these loopholes have been closed, but....buyer beware!

andre1969

yesterday somebody put a note in my mailbox saying "I'm interested in buying your white Dodge" (meaning my '68 Dart). I've always fantasized about fixing it up, but truthfully, it's at the point where I could probably go and buy one in good shape for much cheaper than it would be to get this one fixed up real nice.

Anyway, here's the stats on it...1968 Dodge Dart 270 hardtop coupe. Originally a 273-2bbl/Torqueflite. Now has a rebuilt V-8, but I don't know if it's a 318 or 273. The guy I bought it from told me it was a 318, but I don't know. It definitely has some kick to it, so I'm inclined to think it's a 318. But it was built up a bit, so it could just as well be a 273 that was hopped up. After all, a Dart isn't a particularly heavy car.

The rear quarter panels are rusty, and both front fenders have light body damage. It has a/c, and the compressor works, but the control for the inside-cabin fan is shorted out. Somewhere along the line before I owned it, someone put an aftermarket flip-up sunroof in it. The door panels are out of a '69 Dart GT, and the seats are out of an early 70's Duster/Demon/Dart Sport. I do have a set of GT buckets though, and the GT rear seat.

The real kicker though, is that the car has 338,000 miles on it (engine rebuilt around 241,000, and tranny replaced with with a used, but rebuilt at some point in its life unit around the same time). I put an 8 3/4 rear in it back in '97, somewhere around the 330K+ mile mark. I have no idea how many miles it had on it, though. Oh, and it won't run. I think the fuel pump needs to be replaced.

If I ever got serious about selling it, I'd try to at least get it running again, but with this guy showing an interest in it, that might not be that critical at this point. About a month or so ago, one of my neighbors told me that he had a friend that might be interested in it to turn into a racecar, so he wouldn't care about the engine, anyway. And while it does have the quarter panel rust, structurally it's still good, with a solid K-frame, front and rear sub-frames, and where they attach to the body, etc. So, any ideas as to what I should ask for it, when I call this guy up? I was thinking maybe $900-1000?

I'll try to post some pics of it later tonite. Also, as a disclaimer, I'm just trying to ask for advice here, and NOT trying to sell it on Edmund's. If I've crossed the line though, I apologize, and I'll either pull this post down, or one of the hosts will! :P

stickguy

I would say as is, where is, ask $1,000. Too much less and you might as well keep it for sentimental value, or in case you ever feel like working on it yourself.

Of course, he may lose interest when he finds out ift doesn't run, so replacing the fuel pump might be a good idea, so you can at least get it to turn over.

Then, post a picture here so we can all run it into the ground

fintail

A 'fold em' for Shifty

Mr_Shiftright

You can read the engine # just below the left cylinder head (right side as you face the engine) Just below the valve cover if you wipe off the block you can see numbers and it should say "318" + other numbers. These numbers face the front of the car.

I don't think it really matters if it's a 273 or 318 regarding value however.

Mr_Shiftright

Pretty funny --- yeah, it's "rare" all right because nobody wants one.

78-79 is a baaaaaad year for a 928, worst possible choice. In 1980 they squared away a lot of problems and in 1987 they really got the car "right".

It would be a good parts car--you'd be kinda nuts to put any more effort into this one.

And why would someone put in a new clutch in a 928 (no easy job!!) and have a bad throw out bearing... very weird...

Another thing you can do...there's a company that makes a Chevy V-8 conversion kit for the car. So you can build a street rod out of it if you want.

andre1969

I was pretty sure that the numbers were stamped on it somewhere, but just didn't know where to look. So they're on the head then, and not the block?! What did they do then, when some engines used heads from others? For instance, I heard that the Mopar copcar 318 used the heads from a 360.

Regardless of value though, I'm curious to find out, now! I might try to find out tonite...if the wasps don't get me when I'm messing around under the hood! :P

andre1969

Shifty, I went back and re-read your message. Don't ask me how mis-read it to say that the number was on the head and not the block! I must be going scenic! :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

OR SIMPLER YET---

The 5th digit of your VIN identifies the engine

273 is a "D"
318 is an "F"

Yeah, on the block, facing forward, just below where the head meets the block. Wait a sec I'll get you the #s.....

It SHOULD read

PM or PT
then....
273 or 318
then
4-digit Julian date code
then
4-digit julian sequential production #

So an example would be:

PM38321872401

That's a 383 built in the Mound Road engine plant. "PT" is Trenton.

andre1969

is a "D", for 273 V-8 (LH23DB8XXXXXX or something like that). Only thing is, the original engine was pulled at around 242,000 miles. The seller told me that it had a rebuilt 318 with 11,000 miles on it when I bought it. He said that it had been running fine, but he wanted more power, so he put all this work into it and hopped it up a bit. Only thing is, I don't know if he had the original 273 rebuilt (or who knows? It's conceivable the original 273 blew up before he bought it and a 318 got put in, and THEN he rebuilt it?) or if he found a 318, rebuilt it, and put it in?

Oh yeah, I just went in under the hood and tried to clean it off. It's a VERY tight squeeze between the power steering pump and the front of the engine, so I got a little reminder there of why I never tried that hard to look for the engine # before! I tried to clean as best I could in there, but couldn't find anything. I wasn't able to clean very far down below the head, though, as it's such a tight squeeze.

So, I guess this thing will go to the grave, without me ever knowing which smallblock it really had. Oh well, I'll live! When I was out there, I took a really good look at the thing, too. I think I'm starting to accept the fact that there's no way I'm ever going to fix it up. And I don't want to turn into one of those people that holds onto a piece of junk forever, with aspirations of fixing it up, when year after year it just gets worse. If someone else is really interested in it, maybe it's time to pass the torch!

The sad thing is, if I got it running (presuming it's just the fuel pump) and took it up to Carlisle, if I were to price it comparable to some of the other junk up there, I'd have to put an asking price of around $4,000 on it! :P I often wonder how much some of that overpriced junk really goes for, though. And, of course, I see plenty of cars come back, year after year, after not being sold. And often with a HIGHER price tag than before! You'd think that after awhile, insurance and tags and such would eat up the value of some of these cars, and really make it hard to recoup. In my case, the Dart only costs around $25 per year to insure and another $25 to keep tagged, so I don't even notice it. I guess some of these people, likewise, might have antique tags and insurance, which keeps their costs low too, though.

andre1969

correction, I went out again and looked, and sure enough there are some numbers there. Only problem is, at some point this block was painted, a little extra thick, so they're really faint and hard to read.

I finally found the digital camera, and the usb cable, so I took a few pics of the poor beast. Enjoy, guys! :P

http://photobucket.com/albums/v247/jgandrew/1968Dart/

The wasps are getting a little stirred up now, too, so maybe I'd better leave the car alone for a bit :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

Spray some Brake-Cleen on it, that should take enough paint off...or wire brush it.

Sometimes you can take a mirror and a flashlight and that helps...the numbers will read backwards but you can still make them out.

I go through this all the time. I have a magnifier that lights up.