Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

gsemike

If that car was local, I could see going $600 or $700 for a station car. If the mileage is really 106k, it could go for a couple of more years.

Mr_Shiftright

Well now you know what they're really worth

I think 75-77 cars are going to be the unwanted orphans of old vehicles. It wasn't the best of times. Manufacturers were mostly floundering trying to cope with the new emissions requirements in the US and mostly doing a very bad job of it. Lots of mechanical-vacuum devices, (a headache), air pumps and huge engines with low HP and low compression and very touchy carburetors. You can't even hot rod 'em without gutting them. Even in foreign cars, these years are generally shunned. I know 75-77 Porsches are the kiss of Death and of course Jaguars it goes without saying. Benz, too, had rough years here.

andre1969

of really big cars like that is that there does seem to be a small group of people that rejoice in them, and like them because they're about as big as Detroit cars ever got. If I really needed a car, I'd consider it. I'd never sink a load of money trying to restore it to it's former glory, or anything like that! And the main reason that it caught my eye was those Pontiac Rally 2's! But as a beater to get me around, as long as there was nothing major mechanically wrong with it, I wouldn't be ashamed of it.

Usually though, the type of crowd that goes for these big boats wants them as big and loaded and cushy as possible. So something like a Lincoln, Caddy, Chrysler NYer Brougham, Buick Electra, or Olds Ninety Eight is what they go for. Or the convertible variants of the B-body, which were last produced in '75. But not more basic stuff like a Catalina, Impala, or Fury sedan. And this type of crowd is generally not that concerned about the power, as these cars were more cruisers than bruisers (although they'd bruise ya pretty hard if one hit you!). They're more concerned about how feature-laden and opulent the car is.

Mr_Shiftright

I guess if they are cheap enough...I mean, for $510 what have you got to complain about?

I drove a '75 Cadillac convertible not too long ago and I think it was the worst driving, worst handling, slowest, clumsiest, rattliest, most ornery pile of metal I have ever driven in my life. The scuttle shake was unbelievable! I can still see the front hood oil-canning in and out, going bonk-boing, bonk-boing!

I find it very hard to conceive of anyone enjoying this experience, unless you like being scared a lot! But to be fair about it, I guess if you are going 35 mph in a straight line on a sunny day, well, then okay, I have no argument with that. Just don't do anything real sudden like and stay off the railroad tracks.

Or buy the coupe and get some stiff shocks and really great tires!

lemko

...if it weren't for the rust on that Catalina, I'd make a bid on it. I guess I'm one of the few that would appreciate a 1975-77 car as I had a 1975 Cadillac. A 1977 Jaguar? It would be the perfect car for the rich masochist who's too proud for whips and chains!

Mr_Shiftright

No, at least a masochist gets PLEASURE from his torment...a '75 Jaguar owner just gets bills. No American car could possibly have been as bad as a 1975 Jaguar.

andre1969

that I would really love to have...a 1975 LeSabre convertible, preferably in baby blue with a white interior, and the 455. I don't think the 455 was much faster than the 350 in 0-60 and quarter mile times by then, but I believe it still had a definite advantage when it came to passing power, driving fully-loaded, etc. I always had a thing for hardtops as well, both 2- and 4-door, and I think that's one reason why I liked those big mid-70's mastodons. IIRC the 1978 Newport/New Yorker was the last domestic hardtop you could buy, 2 or 4-door. Sure, there were a few cars without B-pillars after that, like the Mark V, '80-83 Cordoba/Mirada, '79-85 GM E-body, etc, but they all had stationary rear windows.

I think the last Japanese hardtop coupes, at least available in the US, were in 1983. The Datsun 200SX, Toyota Corolla, Mazda 626, and Plymouth Saporro/Dodge Challenger were all available as hardtops till around then. Subaru offered one too, but I think it departed earlier. I think the only hardtops left today are Mercedes Benzes!

lemko

...didn't those 1978 Chryslers still have a vestige of a horn ring and vent windows similar to those used on a 1964-68 Imperial? Speaking of Imperial - "Collectible Automobile" has an excellent article on the 1960-63 Imperials. Critics of the time didn't like them, but I think they are ultra-cool and would pay a premium for a pristine example. I would like either a 1960 or '61.

andre1969

I'm not sure if they did by 1978, but I think some of the earlier examples of those big '74-78 monsters might have used that horn ring. I'm not sure, but I think the '78's used the same steering wheel as my '79 NYer, which just has a padded, slightly boomerang-shaped center section. As for the vent windows, you could get them as an option in '78. I posted a picture of one here once, but got in a little trouble for it, because it was a lowrider at a car show, and it had 3 scantilly-clad women bent over the back of it! I still have the pic somewhere, I think, if you want me to email it to you! Sneakers would kill me if I posted it again, though! :shades:

As for Imperials, I love the '60, with its big "smiley-face" grille, but not so crazy about the '61-63 with those free-standing headlights. I used to REALLY hate them in pictures, but then when I finally started seeing them in person at car shows, well they're just so ugly and gaudy and so OUT THERE that you can't help but love them!

lemko

Considered the ugliest car in the world:

http://www.rexfeatures.com/features/516925/

PF_Flyer

That sort of reminds me of the things my brother and our cousin used to do to "customize" car models back inthe early 60's :confuse:

andre1969

It almost looks like they took one car, like something from the late 30's, and force-fitted a mid 50's body, backwards, down on it! What kind of engine/frame/running gear was that thing based on? It wasn't actually designed completely from scratch, from the ground up, was it?

andys120

This car could just be worth saving but you want to check the frame very carefully for rust damage (a lesson learned the hard way :mad: ).

http://www.hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/dealers.detail/hmn_vehicle_id/218741

Mr_Shiftright

scrapyard! These older GTOs aren't worth much. You can buy a clean driver for $10K and this doesn't even have an engine. Parts car, $500 tops.

andys120

scrapyard! These older GTOs aren't worth much. You can buy a clean driver for $10K and this doesn't even have an engine. Parts car, $500 tops.

I'm inclined to agree, I didn't catch the part about no motor :surprise:, but I doubt you could find a good driver Goat from one of the desireable years for a mere $10K.

andre1969

the '64-67 as the "older" GTO and '68-72 as being the more recent. I think most purists look down on the '73, which was down on power and overshadowed by the Grand Am. And they don't even acknowledge the Ventura-based '74!

Mr_Shiftright

It's not that desirable. The GTO golden years were nearly over by then. And this car is not a Ram Air or a Judge. It's just a beat-up "base" GTO without an engine after all is said and done, and they are fairly common to find and buy. Best part of the car is the AC components you can strip out of it and even that's been cannibalized.

All this is, is a turkey the day after Thanksgiving.

gsemike

By 1970, the Goat was a step behind the LS-6 Chevelles and Hemi cars in terms of desirability but I don't think that a real nice driver can be had to $10k. I'd bet a nice driver with no noticable imperfections from 20 feet away and a decent original interior showing normal signs of wear would probable be closer to 12 or 13 grand. I'm not talking show car, but rather an attention getter at the cruise spot.

This car still needs alot of work. It's either a parts car and worth maybe a grand to $1,500.

Mr_Shiftright

Butttt......$1,500 for WHAT? There's not much left here......

If you see a clean driver advertised for $12K, that means you can get one for $10K...not every one you see for 12K, but you'll get one--especially a NOM car as this one would be.

check out this website:

www.manheimgold.com

andre1969

that Manheim lists a '74 GTO as being worth more than a '73! I know neither one is in the same league as the earlier models, but I figured the '73 would at least be a bit more desireable.

Also, they list the '74 GTO has having a 350 V-8 with 250 hp. Did it really have that much? The '73 had a 400 standard with 230 hp, and a 455 optional with 250 hp. There was supposed to be a super duty GTO with a 455 and 310 hp that was supposedly going to put any previous GTO to shame (and to be fair, 310 hp net probably IS close to 400 gross), but only a few prototypes were built.

I thought the '74 GTO had more like 200 hp, which sounds more realistic. With 250 I'd think it would've been a screamer for the time. After all, some of the fastest cars around back then were the 340 and 360 Duster/Demon/Dart Sports, which usually had around 240-245 hp net. The '74 GTO was heavier though, even though it was a compact.

Mr_Shiftright

They lied a lot back then

All price guides should be taken with a grain, or a pound, of salt...but they do put you in the ballpark.

Pricing with these cars is ALL about condition. One man's "good" is another man's "fair" so arguing prices with a real object in front of you is difficult.

The GTO posted here is, to my mind, a #6 automobile and not even listed in most price guides---in other words, a parts car only.

Would someone pay $1,500 for it? Maybe. Would that mean it was worth that? Only to that person on that day, but that's not the market, no. $500 would make you a philanthropist, if you back it all up from the $10K-$12K "clean driver".

ghulet

...for the GTO was dead when I clicked on it. Anyone remember any details? Just wondering, cuz I forgot that when I visited a cousin in Phoenix a few years ago, she had a '73 GTO, pretty basic (I don't think it even had A/C), with a factory 3-speed on the floor! It was silver with black interior, IIRC. Not in the best condition, to say the least, but 'rare', if not desirable. Still, not worth any real money. My uncle had a '73 Grand Am a few years ago (the same one who owned the '76 GP when he was a teenager), silver with burgandy interior and loaded, I think it had a 455, it was much nicer than cuz' GTO.

andre1969

all I remember is that it was a white 1970 hardtop with no engine. It looked a little battered and had some primer on it. That's all I can remember, though.

That silver and burgundy sounds like a nice color combo. I had a 1986 Monte Carlo that was two-tone gray over silver with a burgundy interior. It looked really nice...at least when it was new! By the time Mom gave it to me the paint was pretty much shot!

andys120

http://hemmings.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/classifieds.cardetail/id/2190481

It's not a classic but it has some of the bodywork of one, the Cord 810/812. IIRC
the Graham Paige Hollywood was a Cord Beverly sedan from the windshield back
but didn't share the Cord's unique drivetrain or it's coffin-nosed front end.

fintail

It would have to be cheap - and you'd have to love the car

Mr_Shiftright

Given that you could go out and buy a nice, clean, completed one for around $15K-17K, I don't see any upside in this car.

It's a rare car (they only made about 1,800 total Grahams, sc or not, in all of 1940-41) but not very many people care about it.

If you HAD to have one, and couldn't find one done already, and you needed 1,000 hours of garage therapy and were an expert painter, bodyman, upholsterer and mechanic and could do the labor for free, and if you were optimistic and cheerful and resourceful and clever-----I still wouldn't do it.

jaserb

But here's my new project:

Front view:


Side view:


Interior:


It's a '74 Spider. Complete and original, with a rusty driver's floor but otherwise solid. I paid $2500 for it, and it came with a truckload of spares. I'm thinking I can make up half of what I paid for it by selling stuff on eBay! I've got to go pick up all the parts on Saturday, but at the very least there is a complete engine, 2 transmissions, a complete rear axle with diff, extra complete and solid front and rear bumpers (these are like gold, as owners of '75-81 rubber bumper Spiders covet them for swaps), marker lights, SPICA pumps, etc. I've wanted another Spider ever since I sold my '87, but this time I wanted one with a little more classic feel. I don't plan to restore it to Pebble Beach standards, and I know I probably won't make a profit, but it should be fun to tinker with. My plans for this year are to replace the floor (and reseal and rustproof), and clean up the interior with new carpets and door panels. This winter I'll do the body work that's needed - not too much, from what I can see, but those are famous last words, I know - then have a decent paint job put on.

-Jason

qbrozen

good luck with it, Jason.

You may already know this since you had one, but the best deal I found when I bought my floorpans was from EBspares. Then again, aftermarket parts seem to be much more plentiful for the older Alfas, so you may have an easier time than I did searching for my '86.

stickguy

I would have taken it for $2,500, even without the spares.

Wonder why the owner (who obviously wasn't looking to make a killing) didn't sell them on the side?

Sounds like a wife's ultimatum might have been involved...

jaserb

and decided it was time to move on to something else. In his case it was a Model A pickup that had been in his family since new.

Thanks for the tip on EBSpares. I'll check them out.

-Jason

Mr_Shiftright

I think you're fine with this deal, as long as you don't overdo it. Just remember that you can buy really really nice ones for $6,500, so make that your budget or go over it by maybe 20%.

If you open 'er up and find lots more rust than you thought, like eating into the A Pillar where it meets the floors, bail out fast...or if you see rust attacking the mounting points for the suspension.

You may wish to hold onto the transmissions since as you know the synchros in Alfas are weak. Give yours a good workout to make sure you can upshift downshift okay.

You may also wish to hold onto one of the SPICA pumps because you must NEVER NEVER run out of gas in this car....the fuel helps lubricate the pump is why. Also these pumps have little oil reservoirs as you probably know.

Good fun car if you keep a level head about it.

corvette

*** ...the fuel helps lubricate the pump is why. Also these pumps have little oil reservoirs as you probably know. ***

I hesitate to recommend oil and fuel additives, but there is one called Fuel Power that increases the lubricity of the fuel. They're quite fond of it on the oil boards. Might be worth looking into.

Mr_Shiftright

Actually a dash of two-stroke oil in the gas would probably do as well for a fraction of the cost.

jaserb

4 oz per tank of gas, or something like that. I understand the SPICA system is an adaptation of a diesel injection system, and diesel lubricates far better than even leaded gas, let alone the unleaded stuff we're stuck with now. I'll probably sell the trannys. This car got new synchros about 20k miles ago, and the PO used some sort of special gear oil formulation - I think it was an Amsoil product. Regardless, this thing shifts perfectly, even when cold. I learned to double clutch pretty well on my old - er, newer Spider, so even if it starts to go I'll learn to live with it.

I looked at an "immaculate" '73 on eBay, even bid up to $6k. It had some things that weren't kosher in the engine bay, though, and I didn't get a good feeling about it. Ended up going for $6600.

-Jason

Mr_Shiftright

You see a lot of clapped out Alfas because the cost of restoration exceeds the value of the car. Any car caught in this dilemma is likely to keep disaappearing or falling into the hands of vehicular torturers until they become so rare than the value goes up...heh...heh...maybe.

The 1981 on up Alfa with Bosch injection are more manageable cars but somehow your model is more fun and better looking than the whaletail models.

1750 and 2000 Alfa Spiders pretty much still act like used cars, that is, the older they are, the less they are worth. However, once you get to the roundtails and the Duettos, the prices start to rise with age, hitting a peak around 56-57, because those Spiders are eligible for prestigious European racing events.

jaserb

The thin bumpers and relatively free flowing engine (no smog pump, cat, EGR, etc) make it more desirable than the later Spica cars.

I was a bit taken aback by the power this car has. As fun as my '87 was, it didn't like to rev all that much and with all the luxury doodads (A/C, leather, PW, etc) I'm sure it was substantially heavier. Fairly underpowered. The '74 is much quicker - and by much quicker, I mean it would actually give my wife's 2004 minivan a decent race. At any rate, with the skinny tires it's powerful enough to hang the tail out a bit.

-Jason

Mr_Shiftright

The SPICA cars rev better that is very true. 70-74s do indeed show a slight price advantage that is also true, but not a great deal yet....maybe top dollar $7,500 instead of $6,500. But that's a good sign, shows some interest (finally) in 70s Alfas. You probably have about 15-20 more HP than the Bosch injected cars but at 132 HP you would still need to go to larger valves, cams and Webers to get really rolling.

Probably what you are seeing in the market price is the "bumper bump" as I call it---all 1974 cars being worth more than '75 cars because of the hideous bumpers that most European cars put on their models to get them into the USA. Also the 'smog bump' regarding cars in California.

nickster_sb

Sorry, I didn't read over the rules before posting my last message... I didn't mean to make it sound like I was soliciting or anything... I was just trying to respond to "just droolin's" post about looking for a malibu wagon...

PF_Flyer

I love a self-enforcing message board!

I took the post down so it won't encourage others to make the same mistake nickster.
One other thiing to be aware of... it's not the wisest thing in the world to put your email address in a posting here. First, we want the discussions to take place ON the boards so everyone can share in and benefit from the conversation. Second, spy bots are out there that scan public boards like this for email addys so they can load up your inbox with spam!

gsemike

It's been real quiet here lately. Take a look at this Navajo and let me know what you think for $650. I'm thinking it's decent if you can do the work yourself.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/car/74054127.html

seminole_kev

I've got to admit to no desire whatsoever to buy or drive one of thes or its explorer clones, but since they only made elventy-billion Explorers, parts shouldn't be hard to come buy.

If you have the capability, I'd get a remanned or even junk yard transmission that would work and with a little tinkering, you could probably get the brakes back up and running. AC in due time.

With that said though, what could you pick up a running one for these days (either Navajo or Explorer) of the same vintage? About the same after repairs?

stickguy

you should be able to buy one without these major issues for not much more than this price, and certainly less than the total purchase + repairs.

now, if you are a mechanic, might be different if you get it a little cheaper..

ghulet

....most of the time, if you find a ~15 year-old SUV in the Chicago area, its body is usually shot. The body on that one looks quite nice. I'd skip fixing the A/C altogether, and how much can a brake job possibly be? If you can get a trans for less than $1000, it might be worth it. Then again, it could end up being an endless money pit, as is the potential for any vehicle that age.

gsemike

I figured that it could be worht up to $2,000 if it didn't need any work. A used tranny installed should be in the $500 range. The brakes are the wild card. Are we talking pads and shoes or a whole new system? If upon inspection, it just needs relining, put that down for $300. Let's even say we chop $100 off, this could work out.

andre1969

that a tranny ain't going to be cheap. Might depend on where you live, though. Last time I had to deal with a used tranny was back in 2002 when my buddy's '98 Tracker pooped its tranny out. IIRC, the tranny itself was around $682 with tax (a used 3-speed automatic with about 55,000 miles on it) and the installation was around $350 or so...grand total came out to less than $1100.

Now from what I've heard, Tracker parts like that are actually pretty expensive, since they're not that common and can be hard to track down. A Ford 4-speed automatic would be more common, but also might be more expensive, being 4-speed/overdrive, and the labor of putting it in might be more, too, especially if it's 4wd.

Still, for $650 it might be worth taking a chance on.

stickguy

A 14 YO Exploder with 150K on it is going to be a money pit. I don't know about the tranny itself, but the 4WD system is major $$, and integrates with the tranny, so who knows what it really needs.

Maybe if you had a newer, lower miles example that was wrecked to use as a donor, you could make it work.

gsemike

http://newyork.craigslist.org/brx/car/76582005.html

You'd have to work out the title issues, but provided that this car's milage is reasonable, this could be a very good deal. Fix the back and install the airbags (Notice that the passenger side is gone), and this car could be worth $10,000 no problem.

This is provided that it doesn't have a salvage title.

So come on.... do you guys like this one??????

oregonboy

Wow, backed into a pole hard enough to deploy the airbags. What genus!

james

lemko

...it is salvageable, but what would an undamaged 2002 Nissan Altima go for with similar miles? If you own your own bodyshop this might be a good deal.

stickguy

Although I do have a soft spot for cars held together by duct tape.

If it really is that easy to fix, it makes more sense for the owner to git er done, and either keep or sell. Makes you wonder what else you are going to find.

Plus, when it is all done, you still have a car with significant body work.

Maybe $2,500 to a body shop owner makes sense. I'm still real curious what happened to the airbags? Probably stolen while the car was on the lot someplace.