Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail

I'm curious about the airbags too. I bet if that car could talk, it could tell some stories. I'd run away. Something's up.

gsemike

Giving the car average miles, that car could be worth $10k at least if fixed, probably even more. The owner doesn't say "easy fix". In fact, he says it was estimated at $3,000. Let's say he lowballed it and that it would cost $4000 to fix, you're still ahead.

Who knows what this guys story is? Maybe he doesn't have collision or the cash to fix it. Of course you'd have to go over this real good, but I think that the number add up. If you can do the work yourself, this could be a steal.

qbrozen

Do we even know if its a 3.5 or 2.5?

$10K for a salvaged Altima seems awfully optimistic to me. I could POSSIBLY see that price IF its a 3.5 SE and its fixed up perfect.

lemko

...with a salvage title on this Altima? A salvage title is the kiss of death if you plan on reselling this car.

qbrozen

oh, ya know, for some reason, I had salvage on the brain. Maybe that doesn't apply here.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think even $4,000 will fix that car, at least not where I live. Air bags are expensive, black is a tough color to match. I wouldn't give more than $2,500 for this car and even then I'd think twice.

gsemike

It's a 2.5 assuming that no one ever swapped out the 17 in alloys for 16s with plastic hubbies. All the 3.5s come with alloys.

Maybe because I own an Alt, I hold it in higher regard than others. I still see 02 2.5s listed to $10,900 to $11,900.

Mr_Shiftright

Well okay, let's back it up from $11K asking price. Let's assume that to actually sell it for an $11K asking you'd knock off 10%, for a really nice car. That means it sells for $10K, and you've got a low mileage sharp one owner car with a clean history.

Now this guy wants you to pay $5K for a damaged car that obviously hasn't been driven with the greatest of care, and you have to repair some substantial damage. Even if you spend $4K and fix everything, was all this trouble and anxiety really worth saving $1,000? And what do you do when you are selling this same car and someone asks "has it ever been in an accident"? It may even be on CARFAX and then you are really screwed, because these cars are plentiful. Why should someone buy your "tainted" car?

So I'm thinkin' this car is worth $2,500 + $4K to fix, giving it a real world re-sale value of around $6,500. Fair enough then.

ghulet

....if this is such an 'easy fix' why the owner isn't getting it fixed. Perhaps he let the insurance lapse? In any case, I think replacing the airbags and their covers could run $2k alone, then it needs a trunk, rear fender, bumper cover, tail light, paint and who knows what else? I don't see $4k fixing this car properly.

andre1969

but I thought you only got a salvage title if the car got totaled out by the insurance company? Also, I think that car might just be a basic model. I can't tell if those are alloys or plastic covers, but the front right wheel is just a cheap stamped steel one. So either a hubcap got broken off (they don't just fall off nowadays), or something happened to that wheel and a cheap steel one had to be put on.

Mr_Shiftright

People have to face the facts about modern cars---when they are hit hard they can be rendered fairly worthless. Labor costs and parts prices are so high, and the cars so complex that you can't view them like they were primitive 1965 Mustangs. I mean, can you imagine the effort it takes to repair a front end smash-up on a computerized AWD car with active suspension, all air bags deployed, etc. ? What are the chances of getting all the electronics to perform again flawlessly?

Really, on most modern cars, unless the damage is stricly light sheet metal, you can plan on throwing it away. Even if you fix it, nobody wants it, and it has severely diminished value in the marketplace.

Example: I have two identical 350Zs for sale. One is low miles, no damage, all records, another recently had $12,000 in body damage repaired. How much would I have to discount the damaged one to get you to buy it over the clean undamaged one? I bet at least 30%-50%.

So if fixing them up still makes them worth less, what do you think NOT fixing them up and trying to sell them, makes them worth?

Exactly.

ghulet

I can see something a bit more exotic (like a 350Z) taking a bigger hit (dollar wise and on a percentage basis) than something more pedestrian (like a base 4-cylinder Altima). Most people who want sports cars want them perfect. Then again, since Altimas are more plentiful, it's a lot easier to be picky. I think if this car is fixed properly (I didn't say perfectly), and the price is right (that is, low compared to other similar vehicles, and given that it will have a salvage title), it shouldn't be too hard to sell to someone who just wants a car to drive into the ground and isn't concerned with resale value. Of course, that's a lot of 'ifs'. Clearly, a few parties (the repair guy, the owner, the insurance company, at least) ran the numbers and they told them to cut and run, so that should tell you something.

fintail

I know I'd glady pay a premium for an unhit unmessed with car than a fixed wreck. I know there's a good chance the wreck is just fine, but it would always nag at me, it would never be "right", and I guarantee I'd find flaws.

gsemike

I think that the salvage title is a good point and will certainly reduce resale value but to call that car a "wreck" is probably overboard. I highly doubt that it even has frame damage.

fintail

Well, I was speaking about similarly damaged cars in general more than that particular Altima...but I would still call it a wreck of sorts. The bags popped and who knows why, if they were stolen I would wonder how much the dash electrics are messed up, and if it was from impact I what the suspension is like, and unless you give it a very good paint job, I bet I'd be able to find the signs in 5 minutes. It would nag me, and unless you planned to drive it to beaterdom, a future buyer would likely find the problems too.

andre1969

about cars like this Altima, is even the slightest bump can bend something in the structure. The auto makers don't put nearly as much effort into engineering the rear-ends of the cars as they do the front-ends, when it comes to impact protection, so while the front may crumple in a controlled fashion, the rear may not. Body-on-frame construction has gone the way of the dinosaur, and even unitized cars don't have sub-frames as beefy as what they used to have back in the day.

I'd imagine that the underlying structure of that Altima has a few bends and ripples in it, as a result of the impact. And it's not that easy to just straighten it back out, because then you'll weaken the structure. If you don't believe me, then go get your grandmother's 1939 World's Fair spoon collection and start bending them back and forth, to see what happens! Just make sure Grandma doesn't have a big, heavy purse to smack you with!

lemko

...has a business where he restores wrecked luxury cars like Mercedes, BMWs, and Lexi. He just finished fixing a 1997 Mercedes E-Class. You wouldn't know it was a total wreck by looking at it. The drawback is that these cars all have salvage titles. However, it is a cheap way for "fronters" to look good.

fintail

Do those cars end up at those high end lots in bad locations?

I'm the type of buyer who gets down on my knees and examines shut lines and panel gaps and paint surfaces and weld lines, etc. Of course, the title is the best giveaway.

lemko

...I hope he isn't that crooked. I don't ask him too much about his business. I showed him this picture of a wrecked 1980s Rolls-Royce and asked if he could restore it. He said, "Sure, no problem! Are you interested in this car?" I don't think I buy a whole 1980s RR let alone a wrecked one.

fintail

A full brake job and major tuneup would approach the value of the car.

I am sure a lot of cars can be fixed and be perfectly roadworthy...but personally, I would always be worried.

andre1969

the manager at the bank we used drove a '79-85 era Toronado. I always admired it, and complimented her on it one day. She told me that it was actually a wreck, where they took two car halves and welded them together! Now a more trained eye could probably tell, and if I had it to look at nowadays, perhaps I would, too, but back then I sure couldn't tell! Considering the Toro was body-on-frame though, I think I'd worry about welding two frame halves together!

Mr_Shiftright

Well she probably meant that they put a "clip" on the car, the rear sheet metal in one unit.

If they actually cut the frame and welded two frames together, she's totally crazy to drive a car like that---a death wish. I've seen them break in half--I saw a reconstructed older Benz do that when it was T-boned.

The problem is not the competence of a really pro body shop...they CAN make a smashed up car look new again----virtually undetectable if they are really really good. And the car may be safe, and may be reliable, too. The problem is the STIGMA of damage, and the "great unknown" about the future.

As for the guy fixing up smashed luxury cars, the legal problems are enormous, whether he divulges the salvage or not. I hope he has a good attorney.

andys120

insurance companies are conservative about totaling a damaged car. I went into a phone pole sideways in a 5 y/o Accord back in '83. The entire left side of the car was caved in and I was sure they'd total it but the approved almost $4k in repairs IIRC. It took nearly 4 months to get that car back and no it was never right after that.

I wouldn't touch a totalled car.

andre1969

the threshold that my Allstate agent used was 60% of book value. I'm sure it varies among companies, though. They estimated the repair to my '86 Monte at around $1500, and valued it at around $2300, which I thought was good for a 12 year old car with 192,000 miles on it! Still, I think $1500 was way low. The T-[non-permissible content removed] smashed my front right fender, right door, bent the A-pillar, cracked the windshield, bent the front rim, smashed the hubcap, knocked it out of alignment (God only knows what might have bent in the suspension!) smashed the rocker panel, and also the rear quarter panel. And to top it all off, the car was two-tone, gray-over-silver, which would've made it more expensive to repaint than a monotone.

Mr_Shiftright

There is an ever greater tendency nowadays to total a car out. Things have changed with insurance company attitudes. They don't want the liabilities either. We had a very high tide some months ago, and some cars got wet up to the floorboards, and the insurance company just totalled all 35 of them immediately. No question of repairing them.

Some insurance companies will not even insure a salvage title car, to the shock of the buyer I must say. Caifornia not only stamps the title salvage, but also assigns you a new VIN # that is affixed to the car with a metal plate after the car is physically inspected.

All these trends suggest that salvage title cars will become less and less valuable (or saleable) in the future.

lemko

...if you can't even insure a salvage car, it's pretty much worthless unless your reckless and self-destructive enough to drive without insurance. I guess there will be no more "salvage" title cars as they will go to the crusher.

What happens if you pull a fairly complete car out of the junkyard and restore it - like say a classic 1955 Chevy. Will this car have a salvage title even if the car is restored to a level the OEM could only dream of?

andre1969

when I bought my '79 Newport, from the junkyard, it had a normal title. They just sold it to me as a used car. I also happened to come across the car on the very day it got brought in though, so it hadn't been dismantled yet. At what point would a car get "salvage" on the title? Only if it got totaled and the insurance company took possession of it? I do remember, at the local junkyard, for the longest time there was this fairly complete '56 Plymouth 4-door sedan that looked restoreable. It had "No Title: Parts only" written on it, meaning that they wouldn't sell you the whole car, I guess.

Mr_Shiftright

It depends. If the salvage yard has a used car license they can just buy and sell the car as a used car. But if the car in question is title-less and has been in the yard for years, it will need new papers and those definitely will get a salvage title.

Your state laws will vary. Some states are notoriously loose about titles, and that's why if you see a car for sale from Alabama or New Hampshire, cover your back. Titles have been known to get "cleaned up", and if shipped interstate, you can do some serious jail time for that.

lemmer

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gsemike

For that price... why not? It's propbably more of a driver than a project car don't you think?

stickguy

Save it. Certainly pelnty of life left as a driver, and possibly a nice DIY platform to play with. It that price, I would pull out a roll of $20s right now, even with the noted flaws. Sounds like it has good "bones"

Of course, fixing the issues could end up being somewhat expensive, or they probably would have been done already!

I always liked these, although my wife would kill me. Don't tell her I put it on my watch list.

Neat thing is, this is the spiritual fore runner to my tC. Just a lot cheaper.

Anyway, good possibility for a teen that wants something a little different.

qbrozen

hmmmm.... i'm on the fence. Seems like the bidding is about maxxed out for what I think its worth ($985). Could be a fun little car, but it is TMU (true mileage unknown) and what's with the rebuild with so few miles on the car? Those kind of details tell me to stay away if I'm looking for something reliable or even worthy of a good deal of attention. If I'm going to make an auto-X car to just beat on till it dies, then its a possibility ... but, like I said, I wouldn't break $1K on such a beast.

Mr_Shiftright

No harm done at $1,000 but $1,500 would be pushing it, since you have work to do.

lemmer

link title

Mr_Shiftright

Question is, was anyone in the Viper when he passed it?

lemmer

I wonder if he had the bottles of antifreeze and windex in the driver's footwell as he blew away GT40s.

But seriously, is that car worth anything?

Mr_Shiftright

I think its pretty worthless. The only time old race cars are worth something is if they have a documented history of participation in a serious series of events. A couple of DNFs in SCCA H production 20 years ago isn't going to cut it.

The car looks like a total mutt, and the level of quality is pretty atrocious. I don't see anything here, and who cares about Lancia Betas for gawd's sake.

fintail

It needs everything, but with muscle cars still hitting the stratosphere, who knows...

Mr_Shiftright

This isn't one that's going to the stratosphere however....wrong year, no motor, so will never be matching #s. All fixed up and shiny maybe worth $13K so the best price would be about "free" I'm afraid.

qbrozen

I like that
"no motor or tranny. original 4-spd car."

ummmm... shouldn't that be 0-spd?

fintail

With the big bucks being brough by even clone cars...who knows what someone with a 454 or 396 laying around could do.

andys120

As Shifty pointed out, the last thing you wanna do is count on any clone or copy cat retaining it's value in an overheated market.

fintail

I looked at it as more of a quick profit rather than a long term value...especially if one can do an engine cheap and a lot of work themselves. The clone and muscle market will die off in time..but one wouldn't keep the car. But make it pretty and it would sell, I see a lot of people who are nuts over Chevelles.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail, I really think there is no money and no opportunity in this particular car whatsoever, except if someone gave it to you for free to turn into a pro-stocker...basically it's a shell not a Chevelle IMO. If you can buy a genuine one in nice shape for $13K how on earth could one make any money on this wreck? A clone also has to LOOK nice to sell.

fintail

A nice big block 70 chevelle SS for 13K?

stickguy

nice.

However, if the chassis/body is sound, could make a nice project for someone that likes to get their hands dirty. Maybe a teenager? Get a crate or used motor, and do the work yourself.

It is at least a simple car to work on!

No, not expecting to make a fortune on it at B-J next year, but certainly a possilbe hobby project to become a driver for the right nutjob (er, person)

fintail

That's exactly what I was thinking too.

You could probably even get it cheaper than that. A lot of young guys dream about a car like that, when finished. It doesn't look beyond redemption from what I can see. There's some potential, unlike most of the craigslist lost causes.

andys120

The ad describes it as in "fair condition" :surprise:

Click

Mr_Shiftright

Junk. Waste of time IMO. You can buy SO MUCH better a starter car for this money, if you want to go cloning.

70 Chevelles are not scarce---they only made a mere 354,000 of them...surely there's a better one than this to start with.

gsemike

I'm familiar with that shop that has the Porsche. They're right on the way to the 59th St bridge when I head into Manhattan. They've got some impressive looking cars when I roll by from 50 feet away at 30 mph. These guys know how to do bodywork, so if they're walking, it must be pretty far gone.

On the Chevelle, how many of the 354,ooo are left 35 years later and how many of those are 2 doors? I know someone that paid $7,500 for a very clean car with a later model 350 and auto. The catch that it was a sedan converted into a 2 door by a talented welder. Don't discount how much a clone or a solid small block car can go.