Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

I could argue with the Sebring pricing. That's a $3,500 car all day long if it's a convertible and a $2,000 car if it's a coupe. I suppose one could argue low miles has a premium but that usually only applies to a car that's desirable in the first place.

The '95 LeBaron has reached what I call "the basement floor" of used cars, which means that ANY car whatsoever that is clean and good running is worth no less than $1,500 in 2007 America.

My theory of the "basement floor pricing" is based on the argument that if I *GAVE* you a '95 Lebaron ragtop for free that was clean and good running and all it needed was four new tires, new front struts, brake pads and rotors and some work to pass a smog test, you'd be in $1,500 easy. So here's a car that has all that in it already---a turn key car has to be worth $1,500 in today's world.

bumpy

Maybe in California. The floor around here is more like $1000, and down to $500 or so for anything that runs on its own.

Mr_Shiftright

Really? I was thinking "clean driver", no problems, shiny paint, needs nothing, ready to roll. Nice old car.

andre1969

both are ugly and undesirable, but its hard to argue with the pricing.

I dunno, I always thought the first-gen Sebring convertible was pretty attractive. I liked the LeBaron convertibles with the hidden headlights, but not the more recent models with the composites that give it a rushed-into-production look.

At 60,000 miles, that Sebring's probably almost ready for its third transmission! :P

fintail

Good resale value

british_rover

Agreed with that. In the northeast something decent is going to go down to 1,000 or so and then beaters that move under their own power settle around 500.

oregonboy

Yuck, that's one of the newer ones. They simplified the mfg process and eliminated all character (and beauty). :lemon: - james

qbrozen

At 60,000 miles, that Sebring's probably almost ready for its third transmission! :P

hehe. and that's EXACTLY why I fear sebrings in the first place.

texases

That one was $73K new. Nice to know my '95 Suburban would sell for more. And that Jag has about the same interior room as a Civic these days (less headroom & legroom, more width).

qbrozen

i knew you'd say that.

but, really, i could see a dealer paying $3k for a clean convertible with low miles in springtime. So maybe $4k private party. $4500 wouldn't be killing anyone.

forgot to mention the lebaron has a new power top, according to the ad.

andre1969

I remember last year, at a car corral at a car show, sitting in a '75 or so Jag XJ6 sedan. Very pretty car, but Gawd was it ever awful on the inside! First, it was hard to get down into, much harder than it might look. Then, once inside, the transmission tunnel seemed to eat up most of the foot room. Steering wheel was also way too close for comfort, and the car was very narrow inside. It felt like I'd have to drive a car like this with my elbows tucked in to my hip bones and my legs pulled up into almost a fetal position.

I've always been fascinated by these cars because, even though they can be mechanical nightmares, they're just so danged pretty! But now that I know I couldn't realistically fit inside one, the fascination has faded.

akangl

At 60,000 miles, that Sebring's probably almost ready for its third transmission!

hehe. and that's EXACTLY why I fear sebrings in the first place.

Not to defend Sebrings really, but the one I had was at 57k on its original transmission. Still shifted perfectly. I know the coupe was a Mitsubishi and supposed to be a lot more reliable than the Chrysler made convertable. The original owner said the only issue she ever had with the car (besides taking out a tree with it) was the O2 sensor. She said other than that it was a great car.

qbrozen

Not to defend Sebrings

don't worry. 57k miles isn't much of a defense for anything. ;b

i'm not sure about what's underneath, but i believe the 3 liter engine only was from mitsu. (?????)
so even the coupe with a 2.7 wouldn't be the "right" car.

I could be making all of this up, though.

apparently, the '97 convertible has a 2.5 V6. I have no idea where that is from. That's the first I even heard of a 2.5 V6 other than from mazda.

akangl

i'm not sure about what's underneath, but i believe the 3 liter engine only was from mitsu. (?????)
so even the coupe with a 2.7 wouldn't be the "right" car.

I can't remember the displacement of the engine in the one I had, seems to me it was 2.7. However, it did say Mitsubishi on the engine, heck everything on the running gear of the car said Mitsubishi. My little brother works at a salvage yard and said a lot of the car's parts would fit the Eclipse as well. Even the keyless entry remotes are Mitsubishi, found that out when I went to the dealer to get one.

Mr_Shiftright

Dunno...no dealer I know would pay that kind of money because $1,000 is not enough profit for a dealer who has overhead. He has to see the potential for at least a $2,500 "flip" to even get his feet off the desk these days.

I guess some low-overhead dealer in a poor neighborhood who is running Mouse House financing could flip a '97 Sebring for $5,500. Some of these guys brag about re-po'ing the same car 5 or 6 times.

I'd consider an old Sebring virtually sale-proof over $2,500.

XJ12 -- you might as well just play a CD of a V12 engine running while opening up your wood stove and throwing $100 bills into a roaring fire.

texases

The only other (non-European) one I know of was Toyota's 2.5 in the older Camry and ES250, which shortly turned into the 3.0l. The 2.5l v6 seemed too close to a 2.0-2.2l 4 to bother.

akangl

I'd consider an old Sebring virtually sale-proof over $2,500.

*snicker* I know mine was hard to sell, but then again, it had *issues*. I had tons of calls on it, but only one person looked at it, they bought it.

qbrozen

oh no no. I didn't mean $4k retail. I meant private party. $5500 is about dealer pricing here.

As a matter of fact, to illustrate the point, I just did a search on autotrader within 50 miles of me and THE CHEAPEST sebring convertible is $5500 and it just so happens to be a '97 but it has 95k miles.

bumpy

The V6 in the original Honda/Acura Legend started out as a 2.5L and became a 2.7 toward the end of the '80s. All the larger Japanese manufacturers have small V6s due to the displacement taxes, but they don't offer them here.

lilengineerboy

The Contour/Mistaque/X-type had a 2.5l V6. The Mazda MX3 had a 1.8l V6.

Mr_Shiftright

Well you know what I say: "Asking price is the exercise of your First Amendment Rights". :P

But if someone buys it, all that means is that they paid $5,500 for a $3,500 car. Congratulations!

The "market" after all is not the highest or lowest price paid, but the number that indicates where most sales fall into place. Nor is "market" supposed to take into account desperation, need to "unload", or cars in remote areas, etc. We know for instance that cars sell for more in Hawaii, but we don't base market on Hawaii pricing. Rather we'd establish market and then do a small add-on for Hawaii, e.g. "'97 Sebring convertibles are worth $3,500 but in Hawaii they might be worth $4,250".

qbrozen

well, sure. But all we've proven (once again) is that you and I are in very different markets.

I think convertibles might be more of a variance than most. In Cali, you probably have thousands and thousands of used verts to choose from. Here in the snow and rust belt, they are far less common, hence more of a sellers market.

By the way. The search is OVER!
I found THE CONVERTIBLE!

210delray

Yep, "stands mice and high."

qbrozen

here's a $3500 one.

only needs a new top, new seat, and a new photographer.

maroon one from the same seller doesn't look too bad.

that's it. then it jumps to $6k and up.

andre1969

The V-6 that Chrysler used in the 1995-2000 Sebrings, cloud cars, etc was a 2.5 Mitsubishi unit. I think it put out about 162-170 hp. The 4-cyl in the coupes (Sebring, Avenger) was a Mitsubishi unit that I think put out 150 hp. The 4-cyl in the sedans (Breeze/Stratus/Cirrus) and the Sebring convertible was a Chrysler 2.4. It also put out 150 hp IIRC, but I think the Mitsu 4-cyl was smoother and torquier. The Breeze actually came standard with a Neon 2.0! You had to pay extra for the 2.4 and I don't think you could even get a V-6 in the Breeze.

Now, in 2001 when these cars were redesigned, they dropped the Breeze. And to simplify naming, they consolidated the coupe, sedan and convertible under the Sebring name for Chrysler, and Stratus at Dodge (no convertible for Dodge though)

By this time, the 4-cyl was the same unit, either a Mitsu 2.4 in the coupes, Mopar 2.4 in the sedan/vert. The V-6 in the coupes, however, was a Mitsubishi 3.0 with 200 hp. The sedans and convertible were stuck with the Mopar 2.7 DOHC V-6, which also put out 200 hp, but was less torquey. Also more prone to sludging if you don't take care of it, and VERY expensive to replace.

As for transmissions, I dunno. I always presumed they put Mitsubishi transmissions up behind the Mitsu engines, and Mopar transmissions behind the Mopar engines, but I could be wrong.

Back in 1998, one of my co-workers bought a used '97 Sebring convertible on a whim. I showed up one pleasant Friday in the spring with my '67 Catalina and we went out to lunch in it. He was so smitten with convertible fever that he went out and traded his Ram pickup on the Sebring that weekend. His wife was PISSED! I don't know how many miles that Sebring had on it, but it needed a new transmission almost immediately. I think it was under warranty though. After that though, it left them stranded a couple times, because of more transmission problems, and they unloaded it in late 1998, for a '99 Grand Cherokee. Which actually went on up over 100,000 miles without any major problems, which I guess must be quite a feat, as I've heard those were pretty unreliable, too.

qbrozen

wow! thanks for that plethora of info!

one thing you left out what what engine your coworker's had.

If the V6, that apparently doesn't speak well of Mitsu trannies, either.

texases

Weren't the Mitsu trannies in the early Caravans that had so many transmission problems?

qbrozen

beats the heck out of me.
you couldn't pay me to even care about a caravan enough to find out. ;b

I love this! a rear main seal for $300? By who? Your drunk uncle?

Mr_Shiftright

Okay, so $2,500 for the car, $1,000 for the main seal, and you have an East Coast $3,500 Sebring convertible...badda-bing!

I think the market is pretty much the same east coast or west, that is ....BAD....for old Sebrings.

BTW, I don't think it's an ugly car at all, but alas, even attractiveness cannot save a car of dubious repute...cf. Jaguar XJ series....

Here you go, even CHEAPER:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/car/328639117.html

or even CHEAPER!! (how low can we go?)

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/324484974.html

And here's a dealer with a Mouse House (in-house financing)

You too can own this Sebring for $50 a week, or we'll just dedect it from your weekly paycheck!

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/car/324229494.html

(You can just tell a "class" operation, can't you?)

andre1969

my buddy's Sebring had the 2.5 V-6. I'm going to second-guess myself now though, and say that it's possible that they used Mopar transmissions in the 4-doors and convertibles, regardless of engine? I think the 2-doors coupes, which were much more heavily Mitsubishi-based (I think they were essentially bigger, heavier Eclipses) probably used Mitsu trannies.

As for the Caravan, I think they always used Mopar trannies. My understanding is that the 4-speed automatic, which started off as the "Ultradrive" back around 1989 or so in cars like the Dynasty and such, tends to give the most problems in heavier vehicles with torquier engines. Stuff like the minivans, which are going to strain it with their heavy bodies and torquey 3.3/3.8 V-6es. Or the LH cars with the 3.2/3.5 V-6, which, while lighter than a minivan, still might be too much engine for the tranny.

I remember back around 2002, I was talking with my mechanic at the time (since retired). He had a 1990 or so Mopar minivan in there with well over 200,000 miles on it, and on the original engine! I think it was the Mitsu 3.0. But, it was on its 4th or so transmission! The dealer he bought it from wanted to use it for advertising, because of the high mileage, but the owner said he'd only do it if he could put a sign on the side that said "Seabrook Garage kept this car running!"

Needless to say, they didn't go for it. :shades:

qbrozen

that first one sounds good.

again, though, nothing like that around here. not that i've found yet, anyway.

qbrozen

so... i think yer saying, "don't buy a chrysler"!
Am i right?

Mr_Shiftright

Well like you say, it's supply and demand...since rust seems to eat up your cars out there, one would presume higher competition for really clean survivors.

Too bad we aren't a long thin country like Chile...we could start a West to East import business on these babies!

andre1969

wow, looking back it would appear so, wouldn't it! And to think, I'm normally kind of a Chrysler hugger!

Honestly, I don't think a well cared-for Sebring would be a bad car. Every once in awhile I'll see a used one in the local PennySaver and get tempted, but I figure I already have one convertible, but I dunno if I'd want to get one as a daily driver.

I think the biggest issue with the first-gen was the transmission. Chrysler made running changes to that tranny almost every year, so basically the newer model you get, the better off you might be.

And if you get one, ignore that part in the owner's manual about changing the tranny fluid every 100K miles on Schedule A or 50K miles on Schedule B. That's probably one reason why they failed so often, anyway! I've heard that it's best to just play it safe and get it done every 30K miles.

Another common problem I've heard of, was for awhile the owner's manual had a misprint in it, and called for a transmission fluid type 7176, or "Type +3", when it should have been type 9196, or "Type +4". Supposedly these things are VERY sensitive to the wrong type of fluid.

fintail

I kinda like this, for the money

urnews

The "never crashed" notation is certainly a plus. I wonder if it would make the trip from the left coast to the East Coast under its own power?

texases

These were SOHC, right, with fuel injection? Wonder what the interior's like.

fintail

I think that car is not FI, I don't recall a W114 280E, just a W123 280E. It should be DOHC, I think, ca. maybe 150-160hp. Interior is probably tex, so it is likely decent.

I don't know if I would risk a coast-to-coast trip in that car... unless it appeared really healthy. I wouldn't do one in my fintail at interstate speeds anyway. If it isn't rusty from being here (and if it is a local car, it probably isn't bad), it would rust out in one winter up there.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes that looks like a W114 280 with 6 cylinder DOHC and twin Solex downdraft carburetors, a bit of a pokey car with 120 HP pushing 3,200 lbs. (about 0-60 in 13 seconds).

Not the best Benz in the world or the worst, but for the price it's fair enough. If it stops running, just pull off the license plates and tip-toe off into the night. :shades:

xwesx

Supposedly these things are VERY sensitive to the wrong type of fluid.

That is no joke, either! Ironically enough, I just recently purchased a '98 Dodge Caravan. As a general rule, I hate Chrysler products, but have always had a soft spots for vans. I did some reading up on transmission failures in these rigs (which seems dubiously common, similar to HG failures in Subaru's 2.5L engine!) and the most cited mistakes were not rigorously changing the transmission fluid (even 50K is not often enough) and also using the wrong fluid. Apparently, even a few miles on anything other than "ATF +4" or equivalent can be enough to send the tranny to an early grave.

I suppose time will tell on this one. I purchased it from a man who is a Chrysler mechanic and maintained it for the original owner before buying it from her and having it as his own for about 18 months. Seems good so far, but I want another 60K out of it, so we will see if it holds up.

british_rover

That fits my experience with those DCX minivans as well. They chew up fluid fast and then the heat kills them.

I told people to do a trans service every 25,000 miles and alternate between the flush and fill service and a pan and gasket service.

boomchek

From that Plymouth to be dug up in Tulsa. Very curious toi see the shape that it's in.

Buried Car

fintail

Cheap hauler

Lots of green

Mr_Shiftright

Personally I'd leave it buried.

urnews

Personally I'd leave it buried.
LOL. I'll bet that with a new battery it fires up and can be driven away. Talk about a keeper.

Mr_Shiftright

Now all the '57 Plymouth collectors can cease arguing about the correct bolt head pattern on the generator bracket.

I think if Chrysler had buried all the '57 Plymouths they'd be in better shape today :P

fortee9er

What do you guys think of the "new" Chrysler 300 Hemi as compared to other domestic or foreign rear wheel drive V8 cars? My newest car in the fleet is 9 years old so it was nice to drive something "new" but I had some issues with this car that seems to be very popular with a portion of the population:
1- Uncomfortable seats and not much support.
2- Arm rests not where I expect them to be.
3- Plastic wheel covers! Plastic bling!
Otherwise not a bad car with good power and a stiff chasis.
How are these cars doing in terms of reliability?
Thanks

fortee9er

I forgot to mention that I rented one of these cars for two days and put on over 600 miles on it so lots of SEAT TIME.

Mr_Shiftright

Sounds like maybe you should post that question here:

Chrysler 300C Forum

MrShiftright
Host

fortee9er

I am trying to determine the value of a Maserati Merak, that I am thinking of buying, but because so few of them were made there isn't much information on sales prices. You guys have a wealth of knowledge and I thought you might be able to give me an idea of how much this car is worth.
The car is a 1979 Maserati Merak SS with 12K miles. It has been parked indoors for ten years. The engine turns but will not start. The car needs a complete paint stripping and repaint as the old paint has the texture of alligator hyde. It also need a new windshield ($2K), brake and clutch hydraulics overhaul, a/c overhaul, plus all the other unknowns that go with a car that has been sitting for ten years. The last thing is the paint color, gray, which is not very popular color.
Otherwise the car has no rust anywhere. The car is complete and it has not been butchered by ham fisted monkeys.
Thanks