Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

texases

Here's one on Ebay, as a reference: Red Merak $25K

I wouldn't trust that seller, most of what he says about the car is wrong. The Merak, with it's v6, was kind of the "baby" supercar from Maserati, not "the first and only super car produced by Maserati."

Here's a high milage one that didn't sell for $13K
Another red Merak

Regarding the one you're looking at, how'd the paint end up like that? And do you have a good mechanic that can diagnose why it won't start? That could be BIG $$$!

Mr_Shiftright

The best way...that is, the most rational way, to approach the value of this car would be to "back it up" from its known value in a very nice, very clean, near-show condition.

If we conclude that a '79 Merak SS in local show condition is worth between $25,000--$27,500, then you'd have to figure out a budget to get the car up to that condition.

If everything goes well and you don't have to take the engine apart, then maybe $5,000 is all the money.

if you have to tear down the engine, the car is probably, at least not rationally, worth restoring even if you got it for free.

But if you want a hobby and if you can keep the costs in line, you might come out about even on the deal...that is, pay $5K and throw $25,000 at the car and have a nice one.

But if when you do your budget and it comes out over $30,000, then you're really pushing your luck here to pay anything for the car at all.

The Merak is like a "Grade C" collectible, which means basically a car that is of some interest to collectors but is not generally regarded as overly desirable in terms of its characteristics, styling or history. For this reason, these cars are now fully priced (supply equals demand) and their future appreciation will be along the lines of gradual market appreciation with inflation, etc. But a Grade C car isn't going to sink in value either like some "collectibles" surely will.

I think it would be a fun toy but you have to buy it right, which means rationally, which means as cheap as you can get it.

If you laid out your budget for us, we could tell you if, in our opinion, your prices for various repairs is too cheap, realistic or over-priced.

I'm think this, so far:

paint: $7,500--$10,000
windshield $2K
AC overhaul: $1,500
engine: ??? $2,000--$15000
brake and clutch overhaul-- $2,000--$5,000
misc electrical---$1,000

how's the interior? Headliner?, carpets?

fortee9er

Mr. Shiftright your numbers match what I was thinking. The asking prices I have seen on eBay, CollectorCar Trader, and other sites on the web have a VERY wide range so I found it difficult to determine a starting price to work from. I agree with all your numbers but I had understimated the paint at $6k. That was a guess based on a car I had repainted last year. Everything else seems right on target.
The interior is in very good condition except that the leather is dry and surface cracks have developed in the driver's seat cushion and the carpets may be a little faded but not sure what the original color was since they are a light color.
Where can I find examples of Grade A, B, C collectable cars?
Thanks for your great analysis on this car I was hoping for a dispassionate rational analysis which I was not going to get from the Maserati club guys.

Mr_Shiftright

Grade C cars would be like Triumph TR4, BMW 2002s, Porsche 914---you know, nice enough cars with some appeal but not something people flip out over.

Grade B cars are desirable and historically significant and or mechanically interesting but probably not all of those together. Also Grade B cars are generally made in "significant" numbers for a collectible. Austin Healey 3000, Mark III, for instance, or a 60s Alfa Spider.

Grade A are the super collectible cars, very rare, historically revered and bowed down to by all...factory race cars, or very limited edition cars of great reputation....Maserati Birdcage or 5000 Allemano coupe, or an Alfa TZ, Mercedes SSK, Gullwing, Jaguar C Type or D Type...

Some marques have no "A" grade, like MG

D cars are like Mercedes 450SL or Maserati Quattroporte and F cars are like Maserati Biturbo or a Porsche 924...pretty hopeless now or in the future.

Of course, all this is somewhat subjective but you're wise not to rely on club advice, or you'd be buried in your car like they are in most of theirs: :P

fortee9er

Thats great information! Are early Porsche 911 Turbos (1976-1979) B or C?

fortee9er

The car was repainted from the beltline up and that is the paint that is damged and would need to be stripped before new paint is applied. The car has not been crashed - I looked very carefully. There is a reason for paint to take on that texture that has to do with either a chemical interaction of the original paint and the new paint or something to do with the solvents in the paint. I can't remember which.
The engine could be an ignition or fuel problem at best since the engine spins but will not start. It could be worse but it will be almost impossible to diagnose while in the possesion of the seller. I am not saying that the seller is knowingly witholding vital information it is possible that he doesn't know.

Mr_Shiftright

Well then if you can't diagnose the engine you MUST presume that you will have to at least take the heads off and clean the engine up inside. Valve seals might be hard as a rock and you could have a sticky valve if it's been sitting a long time. If the engine's been dormant for many years you have to be very careful with it.

the Porsche 930 Turbo would be a "B" car, yes. It's a car that is starting to really heat up with collectors after being dormant for some time.

Yes, "checking" is often either a reaction between lacquer and enamel paints or sometimes just a rapid shrinking of a re-paint.

fintail

Oh those wheels...I feel sorry for this car

boomchek

A different pattern wheels would look good. These ones don't match the car.

andre1969

Those wheels look like a blingy exaggeration of the old Pontiac Snowlflake Rally of the 70's. I think they'd look more at home on an Escalanche or Explursion or the like.

qbrozen

hey shifty. I actually located a reasonably priced sebring. its on ebay and in the next town over from me. the buy it now is $2700 ... which kinda scares me. but its got less than 100k miles ... its a '98 or '97 i think, i forget already. its the 4-cyl model, but I don't think that's such a big deal with gas prices the way they are. I contacted the seller, but he says its at a detail shop and should be back tomorrow. I'll hope it actually shows up before the end of the auction so I can take a look.

why do i have the feeling it won't?

lemko

I had a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe wagon with the 350 V-8 w/2bbl carb. I always wanted a 1968 or '69 Buick GS400. I was at the Carlisle Spring Meet and we spotted a brown metallic 1968 Special Deluxe fixed pillar coupe that was in really nice condition. Trouble is, the guy who must've eaten a "magic mushroom" pizza and washed it down with a bottle of Everclear wanted $12K for it and it only had a puny inline six!!! I'll take this convertible over that overpriced coupe any day.

lemko

I really hate those Sebrings with the fake cross grille molded into the plastic front end. How cheesy! They couldn't even spring for a real grille!

lemko

You could always sell a 1997 Sebring as a second car to Michael Scott, the character played by Steve Carell on "The Office." He brags about his Sebring convertible as if it were a Lexus.

Mr_Shiftright

Sounds good if it's for real. You know, Sebrings are not the easiest thing to sell, so I bet he'll be ready to kiss it goodbye. Remember Shifty's saying "every car in an auction is an abandoned car".

texases

One last question - have you driven a Merak? If you have, fine, but if you haven't, don't expect 'supercar' performance from 220 hp and 3200 pounds.

qbrozen

Here it is

qbrozen

sound about as super as it gets for 1979, though. ;b

oregonboy

That doesn't look like a $50 dent to me... but what do I know. james

texases

Too true. One other option, if the total $$ end up being around $30k, would be an NSX. Plently of older one around at that price.

Mr_Shiftright

You know a lot---more like $600 with painting. I'd just leave it or bend it out best you can.

I'd just test drive it and beat the hell out of it for 15 minutes...if nothing breaks, leaks, pegs a gauge or begs for mercy it's probably fine. So what if it need brake pads or a couple of tires? (you can at least check the rotors through the wheel).

qbrozen

oh heck yeah. no bodywork on this thing. drive it as is.

only thing I MIGHT consider is a set of wheels rather than new hubcaps. MAYBE. POSSIBLY. and that's only if it is in really good condition other than that dent.

Mr_Shiftright

now stop that! This is a SEBRING man. Get a grip on yourself. :P

qbrozen

i probably should have specified they'd be like $50-$70 wheels. OH, and only when new tires are needed, as well. ;b

its actually not a bad option. get them premounted and balanced and dropped off on my front step from tirerack or discounttiredirect. I did that for my volvo and it really only cost about $200 more than if I went to a shop and had them just swap out the tires.

Mr_Shiftright

Okay let's compromise...how about USED wheels with tires already mounted on them, and only after your tires wear out and only after you bargain hard for them on craigslist? :P

qbrozen

hehe. deal.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm just kidding of course.

oregonboy

Hey, used wheels are a good, cheap alternative:

link ebay wheels

andre1969

IIRC, the Sebring uses the 5-bolt on 3.937" wheel pattern. Any Neon, K-car 5-bolt, or "cloud car" wheels should fit it. I think some earlier K-cars used a 4-bolt pattern, though. I remember my '88 LeBaron had a 5-bolt pattern. I tried to put those wheels on my '68 Dart when I was planning on getting rid of the LeBaron, and they *almost* fit. The Dart was a 5 on 4.00" pattern, though.

As for the 2.4 4-cyl, just be warned, it's a rough, crude little thing. It dates back to the K-car 2.2/2.5 4-cyl. My Dad and I test-drove a 2003 Stratus with that engine, and were shocked at how rough and crude it sounded. Now it could just be that my ear is tuned for bigger engines with more cylinders, but I swear the 1968 Briggs & Straton in my Granddad's old lawn tractor sounds more sophisticated! :P

Now it's something that I could probably get used to, especially in a car that I wasn't paying a whole lot of money for. Just be ready for a shock though, if you're used to more sophisticated-sounding engines!

qbrozen

Ya think a "celebrity" connection gets $30k for this car?

If not, I'm wondering where the bidding will end.

heck, if anything, i think the owner in this case should HURT the value. Have you seen how these jokers treat their personal vehicles?? Geesh. All I need to hear is Mikey once drove it and I'd be scared to death of its mechanical reliability! ;b

question: has it been repainted or did these come from the factory with their ID plates painted over?

qbrozen

heck, its an "american" 4-cylinder. Its only very recently they've managed to produce decent 4-bangers. but thanks for the warning.

Mr_Shiftright

What "celebrity"? You mean his 15 minutes of fame?

It's probably worth $12.5K. Looks really clean and really low miles, but if someone pays for this alleged "celebrity"--that's extremely foolish. Nobody cares about third-rate stars. If Tom Hanks owned it....maybe....if Elvis owned it, then REALLY.....

qbrozen

i can certainly understand the seller advertising it as such, but, yeah, i put the word in quotes for a reason.

I betcha if there is someone out there willing to pay extra for that name in the car's history, they can be found through ebay!

Mr_Shiftright

Celebrity advertising usually falls very flat in collector car auctions. The celeb has to be a monster for any effect

qbrozen

oh, i'm sure, for the most part.

It doesn't mean I don't want to find a lebaron owned by John Voight, though. ;b

british_rover

I am ashamed to admit that I have totally done the celebrity thing for cars before. We get minor level celebs trading in cars all the time, mostly ESPN people, and on a couple of occasions I have done them, "So and So owned this car blah blabh blah."

Mr_Shiftright

Well I would expect a good salesperson to do that.

british_rover

But of course and it even works sometimes.

fintail

Condition looks nice, but the color is bad, and I don't think 74 was a good year. Those huge bumpers are painful.

I think the data plate would be painted over, it is in later cars.

fintail

I hope that's a stock photo...British cars and salty water are a bad mix

"The price of $4000 is not negotiable" = "The car is not sellable"

oregonboy

Surprisingly (to me) Edmunds TMV is only $11.5
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/car/329714456.html

We were talking convertibles earlier. I could live with a 3 series:
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/car/329666377.html

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, another dead Jaguar Blimp....well if it were a Mark IX, we could part it out for the disk brakes and engine and use them to rehab an XK150. But a Mark VII is a useless old thing. Is someone crazy enough to spend $50,000 restoring a $12,000 car? That's pretty crazy....I suppose it's worth $1,500 bucks.

british_rover

This is the cleanest Range Rover of this era I have ever seen.

fintail

Grandpa's truck

Grandma's car

I didn't know scrap metal was so hot right now

texases

I don't know why, by that Chevette has always interested me, maybe because it is some kind of a bottom of the barrel kind of thing. Was the Vega worse? Maybe, but at least it had some style. The Chevette had none, even after they granted it a grill. This one is amazingly clean, that hood will be easy to fix. I have not seen one on the road in over ten years, at least, and not one in this condition for 20.

boomchek

That Range Rover on craigslist that needs suspension work is probably a dog, that's why the onwer didn't even put up the original picture.

and he's claiming that "fair" book is $4900, it's more like $3900 for the car. The air suspension will probably set him back at least a g-note.

british_rover

It is way more then a grand if you have to replace all four air springs. If you use the better new design spring I think the cost is around 2,500 for a shop to do. It is better to just do a coil conversion for 3,500 one time and never worry about the air springs again.

andre1969

I don't know why, by that Chevette has always interested me, maybe because it is some kind of a bottom of the barrel kind of thing.

In some twisted sort of way, I kinda like them too. I guess see some sort of "anti-car" pariah-esque charm to them. Kinda like a Bug or Pinto. Or a Gremlin. And check this out. They're even making the classic car show rounds! I spotted this little gem at Hershey, PA last fall! It had some kind of dress-up trim package on the inside, that actually made it look respectable for a little car. Especially for that time period. Heck, it actually looked more dressed up than a lot of cars today, now that padded vinyl and carpeting has been replaced by plastics that are soft-touch...if you hit them hard enough! :P

Mr_Shiftright

I think if you actually drove a Chevette and I told you this was the car you'd have to drive for the rest of your life, you'd put a gun to your head. Cars like the Chevette and Vega did everything so badly you wonder if anyone actually test drove them before they put them up for sale. Between the gear shifts that wouldn't shift (some goofy cable system), the noisy rattly engines, the cheesy controls and the back-breaking seats, there's not a lot to love.

I think a Gremlin was a step up, hard as that is to believe.

210delray

Just wondering about "grandpa's truck" from fintail's post. You had mentioned several posts back about the "floor price" of an old but clean driver needing no work to be $1500. But would pickups have a higher such value, since their styles last longer and they have more utility? Would there be a difference between compact pickups like the Ranger or Tacoma predecessor and large ones like the F-150?