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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    we'll see these boats for sale up at Carlisle, and they'll want $10-15K or more for them. Now granted, it's hard to tell what's up with the Mark IV I found near me just from that one pic. It just shocked me though, because it was a price that actually seemed reasonable, that I'd be willing to pay! As opposed to the general Carlisle rule of slashing it in half and then coming down from there if it still seems too high! :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Andre is in Lust!

    this one's kinda purty, too

    I think I prefer the '76, mainly because I think the front-end is a cleaner, sleeker design. Also, I wonder where the seller got the notion that the '75 has overdrive? :confuse: GM wouldn't come out with an overdrive tranny until 1981, and trust me, you wouldn't want it connected to a 455! In '75, I don't think they were even using lock up torque convertors yet.

    Dangit, I REALLY need to stay off eBay!!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Seems the common theme is that there are plenty of interesting affordable (<5K) old cars on CL and ebay. Maybe not investments...but good hobby cars.
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Could that Buick be any bigger?

    However, with a bid of $500, you could have lots of money left over to restore it, take it to Carlisle, and get $7-9K for it!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Or ask 7-9K for it

    I've got to make it out to Carlisle sometime...show up in a mint bustleback Seville or something
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually if you could haul 5-6 of these old boats at once to Carlisle you might make enough to pay for the trip and put some foldin' in your pocket...but it's no way to get rich....
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I finally got an answer on the 944 Turbo that was a daily driver that needs work. Here is a portion of the answer. Brace yourself.

    I bought the car from a private seller in Anniston, AL on December 29, 1997. When I bought the car it had 32,978 miles on the odometer. On the way home, I noticed the odometer stopped working.

    After driving the car for about 5 months, it suffered catastrophic engine failure. After towing it to my mechanic, he said the crankshaft had "spun". Whatever that means. I planned to have it rebuilt by a performance Porsche shop, but realized 10 grand wasn't just lying around. So, I parked it, Bought a 1988 RX-7 turbo to drive, and started saving.

    During this time I also discovered Carfax and learned more about my car. It had been titled in the northeast with 100k+ mileage. And some years later, this car had miraculously turned back the hands of time and had 20-something thousand miles on it. By the time I bought it, it had returned to a little over 30k.

    4 years later, I bought a used '87 turbo engine from an auto recycler in South Carolina. I also ordered many new parts (clutch/flywheel/pressure plate, intercooler, engine mounts, etc. I have all records.)and had a local Porsche Certified shop install the engine. Since then,(April, 2002) I have driven the car as my "daily driver" to work at a school about 18 miles from my home. Literally "highway miles".

    I've done minor work to the car since then:

    New axle assemblies(cv joints, boots and axles), both
    Replaced coolant reservoir
    New brake rotors/pads (4)

    The bulk of the work was done during the engine swap. Everything that was not in great condition was replaced in the engine bay, including the power steering pump, and many other accessory pumps. The timing belt was also replaced then.

    Here are things that are wrong with the car NOW:

    A/C compressor/condenser were never replaced after the collision.
    Headlight lift motor- I don't drive it much at night
    Tachometer/boost gauge- hasn't worked since the transplant
    Parking brake cable should be replaced soon
    Shifter bushings could be replaced
    Driver switch for passenger window (passenger switch is fine)
    Passenger seat height adjustment
    Weather stripping around the windshield should be replaced
    Climate controls (fan still blows)
    Needs rearview mirror
    The original nose panel above the front bumper had been slowly deteriorating at the bolts and eventually came loose while I was driving on the interstate. It was completely bent-up and couldn&#146;t be saved. I have ordered a new, OEM nose panel, and endeavored to have it painted and mounted, but I just want to sell the car instead. The nose panel is, of course included.
    It also uses coolant pretty quickly (I add fluid every couple weeks). This could be a coolant reservoir cap problem, as the rubber seal on the inside of it is gone.
    There is a small tear (see picture) in the middle of the bumper.
    There is a gap (1/8 inch) between the hatch glass and the hatch. This sometimes leaks.
    Shocks and shock mounts need to be replaced. This is the most recent (9-19) problem with the car. The wheel bearings were replaced on 9-16, along with the driver side stabilizer bar mount and an engine mount. After these repairs, I noticed a knocking noise from the front of the car. I took it back on Monday and that was the verdict.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Here's a cute little pup

    I think I'd be afraid of an aluminum engine that was bored out, though! :surprise:

    And here's something for Fintail
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    He may mean that the engine was sleeved. Neat car, priced way too high.

    RE: Porsche Turbo ----- aye yi yi.....somebody put it out of its misery....mein gott!!!

    RE: Canadian Volvo -- a 122 with the Borg Warner two speed automatic? Can you say WOOF WOOF!!? It's a $750 car all day long with body damage, but it could probably be squared away for another $1,500 or so and made into a nice grandma putt putt Sunday car to take the kids for ice cream. Harumf....more dumping on SU carburetors....people just don't know how good they really are!

    Katrina Benz -- hard to say....SOUNDS good, but...these old coupes are such cows, pardon the expression....very heavy, very rust prone for some reason....but if it ran well and had no MAJOR issues, $3,000 isn't at all unreasonable.....but I'd sure go over that body with a fine tooth comb. I actually saw one break in half after an accident, all due to rust. Nice highway car though....a German Buick....sort of like driving a 3 bedroom house with a turning radius to match. As you can tell, not my favorite old Benz. A 280SE coupe would be so much better in every respect.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I've never heard of the Canadian Volvo before...I know Volvo built cars in Canada, but that's the first time I've seen that badge. Might sell better in Canada.

    That 220SE coupe warrants further inspection. If it is roadworthy and sound, it'd be a good driver at that price. The engine is a sound unit, if not clattery and revvy. It's for all intents and purposes a fintail coupe. As Shifty mentions, rust is the big issue...60s MB just like to rust. Appears to have Euro fogs with NA headlights...either they were added or it is a Euro car. You want the former. It's also on early 70s wheels and the color is likely not original. A lot of these cars got cosmetic updates in the early 70s to look more like the pricey 280SE cars.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't think I've ever seen one of those early coupes that wasn't a lead sled...as you may know, most of these now in the USA were not US imports but rather Euro cars. The Germans won't allow a rusted car on the roads like we do, so America ended up with all the rust buckets that were worthless over there. I recall a company in Belgium that would slap-dash weld a few panels and goop the car up with undercoating and send 'em over here. We even got boatloads of Benzes that had been sunk in a ship carrier disaster...hundreds of them.....

    Those coupes are an acquired taste...the manual shifters are simply awful (floor shift) and the cars are heavy and slow. HP to weight ratio can't be very good.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I do kinda like the style of those old Benz hardtops. If I ever got daring enough to play around with an old import, I wouldn't mind having one. So are they really any more complicated than a fintail sedan? Also, did the hardtop model ever come with fins on it?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    The coupes are very elegant cars, and if you can find one with immaculate leather and wood, they have lovely interiors.

    I don't know if performance is so awful...an injected fintail is a decent performer for the time, and is fully competent in modern traffic. Late ones like mine put out about 140hp, which is adequate. They don't accelerate fast from a stop due to 2nd gear start, but they handle very well and cruise along at 60mph wonderfully. I don't know if a coupe was much different. The injected sedans were extremely successful in racing during the early 60s, and their 1-2-3 at Monte Carlo in 1960 is still amazing.

    Mechanically, the coupes are identical to an injected fintail, although I am pretty sure they are heavier, and they have a lot more detailed interior trim.. There was a 300SE coupe with air suspension and a complex engine, one should stay away from those unless they love the cars.

    No fins on coupes, save for the small bumps seen on all cars/
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Book says 0-60 in 13 seconds and fuel consumption of 13.7 mpg. It's actually faster than a 220SE sedan even though it's 200 lbs heavier. All these 60s Benzes are not exactly ballerinas or very agile, but for their time they handle better than their American contemporaries.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    13.7mpg??? Which book is this? I can get 23mpg or so on the highway in my car, and I think 0-60 is around 11 sec or so. I never get below maybe 15-18mpg in town. I'll need to find my factory spec book when I get home.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, 13.7 is for the coupe. They are notorious gas guzzlers. I bet with radar your car would be about 13 secs if you did a couple of two-way runs and averaged them...that's about right for the power and weight. But you might be a tad quicker with an automatic trans and aggressive shifting.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Here's the fintail's consumption per the owners manual. I originally scanned this for the hilarious oil consumption. What does that number mean? Is that max permissible or something? It doesn't use *that* much oil.

    image

    Must be something wrong with it, it's being relisted. Looks like a cute thing

    Strange to see a new Subaru in this condition. Oh wait...

    Someone doesn't understand "Brougham", but not many nice ones of these left. The Eldo wore the body better IMO

    Not many of these still roadworthy
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Heck I'd buy that Saab if it still had a transmission that worked. Tough old cars but trans is a real weakness and painfully expensive to repair. Fair price. I love the clunky column shifter and V-4s are so weird.

    MG Midget --- does seem a tad cheap but it's no MGB...but if it's a mite shabby here and there but runs okay, price is about right. Pebble Beach midget is worth maybe $5,000.

    Nice old XJ6 but in the US of A he is a bit delirous at $4,800 for these old barges. You could hardly buy a worse car, but they are PURTY so someone will overpay for it and live in hell for a while. This car would sell for double in the UK if it were RHD. $3,500 would be about right and figure a quick $1,000 in surprises after that. Not a bad sunday drive take the kids for ice cream don't go far on a hot day car.

    Toronado seller is nuts at that price. Wake up and take $2,500 and be happy. 1980s cars are sold mostly by the pound.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I like that Jag, I'll admit. It is pretty.

    Maybe because the color reminds me of this beast
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well if you could put the driveline of the Benz into the body of the Jaguar you might have a car that everyone could like. Oh, the German electrics and cooling system, too--except the radio! And of course American A/C.

    If anyone out there wants an XJ6, get an 85-86; otherwise you'll be real sorry.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Hey the old Becker Europa works well enough for a single speaker unit.

    I'm happy with the German body too. Although old MBs rust, nothing rusts like a vintage Brit.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    it's the fins...I have nightmares about fins, where I'm a little child and Virgil Exner is trying to kidnap me and take me to his Fin Castle.... :cry:

    Well I'm presuming we'll pick a good XJ6 body. Okay, you can keep the Becker if you MUST....probably better than the hand-cranked AM radio in the Jaguar anyway.

    Now that Rolls and Bentley are owned by the Germans, my proposal is no longer heresy.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    In the 60s I think Beckers were high tech. Sure the 80s ones are silly, but the old ones are good.

    I've never had an aversion to fins, but then again, they have always seemed vintage to me, as I didn't grow up when they signified the excess of the domestics.

    A cheap way to get into this club...not saying I want to be a member
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    $2,000 is more than enough I think. Scary car to drive. I remember bounding down the highway getting seasick while watching that massive hood oilcan in and out and make kaplunk noises. what a thrill....no wonder Benz rolled right over them.

    I wouldn't mind a really cheap '93 or so Cadillac coupe with the Northstar....they drive pretty decently for the type.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    This thread is going to be my bane I can just feel it. Now I have a hundred some people looking around for project cars for me. :(

    I have always wanted a big caddy convertible but it would have to be a much older one then that. Oh and it would have to be blown with a 12-71 roots superchager through the hood. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I'm afraid someone will unearth a project I'll want

    I remember when the Northstar cars came out...I was in high school, and a friend of my dad's bought an Eldo coupe. My dad was very impressed.

    Speaking of Caddy converts, these are worth little now.

    Andre should do this to his 'Trep

    Looks like a nice enough old cruiser for the $
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Andre does NOT need to do that to his Intrepid! :P I'd probably lose half of that cladding the second I pulled into my driveway!

    Y'know though, I must be getting more tolerant in my old age or something, because starched up cars used to either hurt my eyes, make me shake my head in disgust, or laugh. But now I don't even notice them anymore, like I've been numbed or something.

    Maybe they're the automotive equivalent of a murder or something? Y'know, where the first time you see someone get killed, it really freaks you out, but then if you see it again, your senses become dulled to it? Umm, not that I'm speaking from experience! :shades:
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I've always had a strange sort of fetish for them, especially the '75-76 convertibles. There's just something about the rectangular quad headlights and bulkier bumpers that I think works on these cars, somehow, and makes them more attractive to me than the '71-74 counterparts. Still, when it comes to these big 70's convertibles, maybe I'm just too conservative, because I find myself liking the big Chevies and LeSabres better. Especially something like a '72 Impala or a '75 LeSabre.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    There are a LOT of 1975-76 Cadillac Eldorado survivors and many in much better shape than the black one above. I'd say big '70s Eldos were the majority of cars at our Fall Meet this past Sunday. I prefer the trimmer 1967-70 Eldos myself, especially the 1969-70 models. The concealed headlamps on the 1967-68s make them seem too much like Lincolns. The 1976 model was the last to feature the big 500 cid V-8. The 1977-78 Eldorados have the 425 V-8.

    There were also several Allantes. The last 1993 model is the best as it has a decent powertrain to go with that beautiful Pininfarina body.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Many people saved 75-76 Eldos because they thought they'd be the last GM convertibles...much to their future dismay. Then when they found out that they weren't going to be big buck collectibles, they all tried to sell them at the same time...result? Glutted market we see today.

    I agree with you, the late 60s Eldos are a much nicer car in every way.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    that the late 60's Eldorado truly is a thing of beauty, although I prefer the ones with the hidden headlights. Still, there's just some sort of garish charm that attracts me to those big '75-76 convertibles!

    Too bad they didn't make a convertible version of the '71-78 Toronado...I actually prefer it to the Eldorado.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You go drive a 75-76 Eldo and you'll change your mind real fast I think.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nah, late 70s cars are doomed. They'll never be worth anything unless you maybe gut them and clone them and customize them.

    ZIMMER: Everytime I see one, my mouth goes agape wondering what the hell would motivate anyone to buy one of these. It's so WRONG in every way. It's the equivalent of wearing a ladies flower hat, a pirate's eye patch, a Civil War shirt and clown pants and telling everyone you're a Victorian gentleman. What a mess of styles, pretense and bad taste!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    had a 1963 Mercury Monterrey with that "breezeway" rear window. Granddad liked it because it enabled him to haul long stuff like lumber, ladders, etc in the car. Kind of like a pre-historic Avalanche, I guess! Every once in awhile, I'll see one at a car show. Their loving owners are usually not amused when I tell them about how Granddad used to use his! :P

    Actually, in 2-door hardtop and convertible form, '63 Mercurys aren't bad looking cars. The 4-doors are pretty awkward looking though, because of those over-sized roofs.

    As for that Trans Am, I've always liked that style, with the quad headlights. I didn't care for them when they went to the style with the headlights above the low-mounted grille, which I think was 1979-81? My cousin had a Trans Am like that back in the 80's.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    was used as the basis for that Zimmer? I thought that most of those "neoclassic" styles used the '83-86 Cougar, but that one looks like it might use a mid-80's Crown Vic/Grand Marquis coupe as its basis. One of my relatives used to have a Tiffany, which I'm pretty sure was based on the Cougar. Fortunately, I never had the honor of seeing it!
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Didn't you read that "It is a must for the classy person?"

    I think they must have misspelled "cheesy pimp" as "classy person."

    FYI, the official Zimmer song:

    When there's a glimmer in his eye,
    His GOLDEN SPIRIT is nearby,
    And you will hear the people cry:
    "It's a ZIMMER!
    ...by Zimmer!"

    For it's Zimmer, the man, who makes ZIMMER, the car;
    A work of art (by Art)
    that stands so smart!

    Yes, it's Zimmer, the man, who makes ZIMMER, the car;
    A work of art (by Art)
    that stands apart!

    So follow the excitement, when you hear it!
    And before you know it, you'll be near it,

    Then you can feast your eyes
    On the sweet, shining prize
    That's Art Zimmer's GOLDEN SPIRIT!
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I bet you are right, or at least close. The mid 80s Zimmers all seem to have the Ford 302.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    would most of its problems show also be endemic to GM's lesser B-body convertibles of the 70's, like the Impala/Caprice, LeSabre, Delta 88, and Bonneville/Grand Ville? I drove a '72 Impala convertible I found for sale back when I was in college, and soon after I graduated I found a '73 Caprice that was a horrible looking school bus yellow/orange, and, oddly enough, for sale at a Honda dealer! I probably didn't have enough experience yet to realize just how bad the '72 might have been, but by the time I drove the '73, I already had my '67 Catalina, and had enough experience to know that I liked the Catalina better!
  • martianmartian Member Posts: 220
    I saw this one at a junkyard-obviously escaped the crusher simply because it was forgotten-are there any parts for these heaps? I recall that Rovers were quirky beasts-they generally ran well 9if you could keep the Lucas electrics working). They actually handled quite well for a late 60's design-and were pretty comfortable for the size of the car..are there any left in restorabl;e condition? I saw one in Somerville, MA (ca 2003)-it looked pretty good-but I'd wager that it was an engine swap car.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I can't imagine it would be worthwhile to restore one, unless there was some kind of extreme personal attachment for these cars.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    as far as collectibility goes, but that '79 Fairmont, with the 302 V-8, is probably a VERY rare beast. The vast majority of these only had 200 inlline-6es, or even the 2.3 Pinto 4. There was also a 4.2/255 version of the 302 available, that might've had around 112 hp. While the Fairmont was about the size of a downsized intermediate (and in fact, would ultimately the Fox platform WOULD serve as Ford's intermediate) the Fairmont was generally considered a compact, and as a result mainly got stuck with the smaller engines.

    If nothing else, they were pretty lightweight, so I'd imagine a 140 hp 302 in a car that light wouldn't be a bad performer. Also, for some reason, it seems like the Fairmont and the Mustang got the higher-output 140 hp 302, while the bigger cars, IIRC, got stuck with the 129 hp version of the 302. :confuse:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    The Fairmont appears to be some kind of sport trim, louvers over the furthest rear side windows etc. A forgettable car, but it looks highly optioned and in excellent condition. For $1200, maybe one for a Ford historian. You could do a lot worse for the money.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I briefly considered buying an early-70s 240D for $2200 to drive around in college about 10 years ago, then I had visions of going to the "American Service Center" for a water pump or a set of glowplugs and having to drop out of college to pay for it. I bought an '88 Sentra instead.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Thanks for the Zimmer song! I wish I had the soundtrack.

    Looks like his song-writing ability is right up there with his car-building!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    but I think the top line Fairmont might've been called "Ghia"? I know there was also a Granada Ghia back then. I think the Mustang II also had a Ghia package, but I don't know if it transferred to the '79 Fox Mustang.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    A 240D like that should actually be one of the cheapest MB to keep around. For a MB, they are almost agricultural in their simplicity. Find a good independent mechanic, and you can rack up a few hundred K miles with not much hassle. You'll never have to worry about car theft or high insurance either.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I'm pretty certain it would be called a Ghia. There was a Mustang II Ghia, yes, my sister had one in the dozen cars she had between age 16-20. The Ghia name is also still used in the UK for highline Fords and I think Europe too.
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