Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

lemmer

My wife's uncle has almost a twin to that Mercedes, but his is a turbodiesel. Oh, and it is 100% trashed in and out and mechanically. It hasn't moved in years, it is rusty, needs a new interior, and almost all new mechanicals. The block might be OK.

Of course, he has plans for a full restoration. He thinks he can do it for around $2-3,000.

He must live in some alternate universe. He always talks about how it will just fly down the highway. People always assume it is slow because it is diesel, but according to him once you are on the interstate it can catch and pass almost anything on the road.

His daily driver is a mid-late 80s Cutlass Ciera with a 4 cylinder with over 205,000 miles last I heard. He thinks all GM 80s products are as reliable as new Toyotas. He also claimed that his wife's 2000 Saturn was a far superior auto to my wife's 2000 BMW for less than half the cost.

I know this is only tangentially related to autos, but I can't complain to my wife about it. Alternate universe, I tell you.

qbrozen

I had a 2-door Zephyr for a while (same as fairmont) with the straight 6 and 3-speed auto. Wasn't that I6 about 110 hp? It got out of its own way and would break 100 mph if you had enough road. I quite enjoyed the car, actually, and have often thought I'd like to have one these days. But if that V8 is only 120hp, I can't see how its a desirable option for that car. Maybe I'm crazy.

Anyway, on a side note, how can i tell where a car is from on some of those links? I think I saw one example where they listed the state, sometimes its just the town name, and sometimes nothing.

qbrozen

now you guys got me looking at craigslist.
What is going on here???
http://newjersey.craigslist.org/car/99974946.html

that can't be for real.

Mr_Shiftright

Well what will happen is that you'll e-mail them and then you'll find out that the car is actually in Mexico City or Hong Kong or Hawaii and that if you'd be so kind as to send a deposit for shipping and a down payment, the person would gladly trust you to wire the remainder upon receipt of the vehicle, which will, of course, never arrive.

qbrozen

nothing spectacular, but could be a decent spare car. I kind of doubt that mileage number. My '93 190E only got about 23-24mpg.
http://newjersey.craigslist.org/car/99789742.html

andre1969

that 200 CID inline 6 only put out around 85-90 hp! :surprise: However, the Fairmont was such a light car, considerably lighter than something like a Malibu, and a good 500 lb or more less than an Aspen/Volare or Nova, so it could make do with 85-90 hp what the heavier cars might've needed another 20-30 hp for. Ford also tended to be a bit more aggressive with their axle ratios than GM and Chrysler, which helped them out a bit.

Originally, there was supposed to be a turbo 2.3 offered for the Fairmont, but only a few prototypes were built, and it never made it to the mass market.

fintail

That guy is insane. As that ad shows, you can get a mint old diesel for just a few grand, so restoring one is either for the overly sentimental or the ignorant. He'd be much better off to buy a nice original car needing little, and use his old jalopy as a parts car.

Once it reaches highway speeds, in what seems like hours from the green light, it will keep up with traffic. But speed gains are not quick.

I guess coming from someone who ranks a Saturn above a BMW, it shouldn't be a shock. I am glad my relatives aren't quite so bad.

fintail

Yeah it's either a scam like shifty mentions, or it is a spammer gathering email addresses. There are plenty like that on the Seattle listings - 8K Escalades and Navigators, 6K Supras, etc. Craigslist is relatively unpatrolled, kind of like the old west of internet commerce. There are bandits everywhere, but genuine bargains mixed in as well.

fintail

Look at the top left of the page - the city should be mentioned

That 420SEL is a good old cruiser for the money. Just drive it til it breaks, then find another and recycle the broken one. 126s are good cars.

lemmer

There has been a few of these posted lately from Craigslist, and it seems like they get deleted pretty quickly.

I have long since given up on finding a steal on ebay, craigslist, and even the local classified.

w9cw

- that 200 CID inline 6 only put out around 85-90 hp! -

As I owned a new 1979 Fairmont station wagon with the 200 CID inline 6 with the 3-speed auto, I remember the car was a terrible cold starter in winter. Anything below 10 degrees F., you could almost forget about it. Needless to say, the Autolite carb was choked down by 1979-technology emission controls. Ford could have done much better. Plus, I was consistently replacing the exhaust donut connecting the manifold to the headpipe. Other than that, and eventually having practically all the hydraulic lifters fail at around 100K, it was a reliable engine. Only other replacements included a water pump and starter. Oil changes were at 3K or 3 months intervals since purchase, and it never burned any oil, even when I sold it to my brother-in-law for $1 (yep, that's right) in 1989.

wojo2

I had one for about 2 years in the late 80's. I bought it from a guy at work who,I believe,
didn't know it had a V 8. It was fast and handled decently. It was a blast to drive. I had to get rid of it though because I needed room for 4 kids and my wife and I.

stickguy

I remember reading a road test of the V8 sporty model, with a stick shift IIRC. They seemed to like it, and it was quite the Q ship.

Remember, the chassis was essentially the same as the Mustang of the day (making it the spiritual successor to the Falcon). it was also pretty like, so the V8 gave it snappy performance (for the day at least).

Besides, I assume any of the go fast Mustang parts would bolt right on.

It would have to be faster than my friends 4 cyl AT 4 door I bet!

lemmer

Is this thing original?

lemmer

But, somebody will buy it

Wrath of Katrina. I bet a lot of these are going to be "cleaned up" and resold

stickguy

any listing that starts with: The reason I am selling this car is because I can not afford to make the necessary repair it needs to get back on the road., has nowhere to go but down.

Actually, until he got to the electrical, etc. problems, it sounds like a good project for someone that can put in a shortblock (since the heads were done).

Of course, you would then have a tacky looking, unloved car with an AT (which should oncly come in 5 speed), plus you would have about 2-3x it's worth invested.

At the $500, only for the right mechanic, although even then I would just part it out. You could probably get more for some of the pieces than the whole thing.

stickguy

Damn, I really like that 911 too. One of my favorite models (although I'm not sure if it is a recommended year per Mr.Shifty). Looks like it was real nice before the bath.

You are correct though that a nice cottage industry will spring up cleaning up (but not rehapping correctly) these cars, and then "washing" the titles.

One more reason to just buy new and keep it a long time.

Mr_Shiftright

Siata Spring -- yeah, it's original, yeah, it's rare, yeah, it's worthless....

Porsche 944 -- wrecking yard for this one. Who in his right mind puts a new engine in a bug-infested car with a salvage title that is worth $6,500 on a good day if it were bid up by wine-soaked rookies? Hopeless.

1983 Porsche Flood Car -- $5,000 opening bid??!!! What is he NUTS???!!!

This is a $15,000 car in top shape, $18,000 mint and ready for Pebble Beach. Silly man.

Ain't nobody gonna "clean up" this one...it is totalled, done, gone forever, sad to say. Good year for this car, too bad. I wouldn't buy a ten cent part off of it myself.

fintail

This has to be a typo...one of the few timeless 80s cars

Unusual Corvair

The Car

Oddball

A lot of class for the $$

Finally a fintail pops up...the odd W110 6cyl

You'd have to be brave, but it's cheap

Good beater or car for a kid for almost nothing

andre1969

If I needed a car, I'd jump on that LeSabre! It's really odd though, seeing a Limited with crank windows and no vinyl roof! Doesn't say which V-8, but I'd imagine it's the 307, although I guess it's possible that the Olds 260 could be under the hood?

andre1969

but in reading the description, this scares me!

fintail

That LeSabre seems stripped down somehow. No passenger mirror either. But hell, it looks clean and straight, for $350? Bargain, if its a driver.

That Dart reminds me of something...I've seen a lot of old iron, usually lower level muscle cars, with big modern 18" or so wheels on them. It makes the cars look lame IMO, like toys. Questionable used car lots are especially guilty of this retrofitting.

bumpy

Own a Piece of '70's Americana...

stickguy

I take it back. Looks better as a Pontiac on the outside too, and the interior is way above and beyond.

7K for a slant six dart? What's he smoking?

stickguy

I vote yes for the Pocamino project. I think the car was cheap enough, as long as it is solid underneath. Find a donor grand Am, and off to the races.

Andre, make sure to post pics when you are done. That, and get a lift in one of the bays of the new garage.

stickguy

I vote yes to the Jensen HEaley, but only because I always liked those. Seems like a reasonable price and a good foundation to play with.

the 280 coupe looks nice, but certainly not a project.

lemmer

I'd like to have that Jensen Healey. You wouldn't have to be too brave to buy it. A lot of people spend that much on sales tax on a new car.

lemmer

Once again, stickguy beats me to the punch with his sage advice. I was wondering how everyone could ignore the convertible in favor of a bunch stodgy old barges.

Mr_Shiftright

560SEC -- not a typo....market retail is about $4,000, trade in about $3,000 (wholesale)...so a bit cheap unless there is something wrong with it. Nobody wants these old barges, they are just too expensive to fix anymore.

Corvair Turbo --- "no rust" but needs the trunk floor welded in? These "turbos" only work at very high rpm---the turbo system is extremely primitive and the carburator is MID STREAM between turbo and intake. Not the best idea.

Jensen Healey -- can be made into a decent car with some modifications but will probably never be worth very much. Faster than an MGB, too. by a good margin.

81 LeSabre is a good deal. Shoot, you could buy it, drive it for a year, and sell it to a Polluter By-Back Govmint Program for $750.

qbrozen

did that Le Car always get 25 mpg?? So you got a really crappy cheap car AND bad mileage? That just leaves me at a loss for words.

lemmer

If that 560 is as nice as it looks the dude could get somewhere in the $6-8K range on ebay.

Mr_Shiftright

280 Coupe --- well you have 13 years of storage to contend with, so that means four tires, a battery and a major service.....so $3,500 is now $5,000. No bargain but I like the 280 coupes....nice highway car and decent power...I hope though that this isn't a carburetor model. That would be REAL bad....but I think those didn't come out until a bit later...it was a twincam six that had the carbs I think....BAD cars......

Mr_Shiftright

doubt it...why would someone pay double Blue Book? Well, it IS ebay, so maybe someone WOULD pay double blue book---LOL!

lemmer

I didn't say it made sense. I just searched completed auctions. Go figure.

Mr_Shiftright

Well there are so many kick-back bidders and shills going on, you best not measure the market from eBay.

Also depends on how long you want to take to sell a car and what you're willing to put into it.

The advantage of eBay is that you sell it and ship it and then the guy who wants to complain is 2,000 miles away and you've got his money.

I just checked out an '89 560SL for someone. Beautiful perfect car...but the little dim "SRS" light was on, and low and behold, nobody caught it (but I did thankfully). That was $1,800 to fix.

fintail

Retail KBB on that SEC is 7700, Edmunds TMV retail is 7K

The 280 hopefully is a CE...there was a carb model made that year too IIRC...last of the US market carb MBs.

I wouldn't doubt the LeCar is not good for more than 25mpg...think of the technology or lack thereof

Mr_Shiftright

No it's not...Edmunds retail private party is $4,600 and that assumes "clean" condition, which we don't know. Average condition would be $3,700. You're not reading it right or something....

KBB is pumped out silly pricing...don't ever buy a car based on KBB retail.

A big 560 is sale proof unless you unload them cheap. Buyers are too freaked out about repairs. But someone will bite at $4,500. Edmunds is right on in the pricing I think.

An MB 300E is a car you can sell readily.

lemmer

The EPA has a 1978 Le Car at a combined MPG of 31.

For comarison, some other 1978 models:
Alfa Spider - 21
Ferrari 308 - 14
MGB - 20
Porsche 911 - 19
Datsun B210 - 33
Toyota Corolla - 39
Rabbit - 31
Rabbit Diesel - 45
Ford Fairmont - 26
Buick Electra - 18
Ford Courier - 33

fintail

Retail and private party are different. I got 4600 for private party...the seller still wants around half of that even if it is right. Something is up.

I've seen 300Es for like under 3K...I know a guy who recently bought a fairly immaculate 260E (not with my advice) for 2800. But at the same time, I had a buyer for my super clean 182K mile 300SE before I was ready to sell.

andre1969

25 mpg in the city would've been considered very good. Especially if you're using more modern, realistic mpg numbers and not going by the inflated EPA estimates that they used before 1985. Just as a contemporary example, my buddy's 1980 Accord only got around 20 mpg around town and was lucky to break 25 on the highway. However, that Accord had a 3-speed automatic and air conditioning, which no doubt took its toll on fuel economy. And "highway" driving to us back then was NOT an average of 48 mph, like it is when the EPA does their testing! :P

Another thing I'm starting to wonder, is if people have forgotten what vinyl is? I notice the ad says that LeCar has a leather interior?! :confuse: I've been seeing that a lot lately in old car ads, where a vinyl interior gets listed as "leather"

lemmer

a little newer and less miles, but $18K

lowest completed sales price for any 560SEC was $4900

fintail

That SEC seller is on crack, but that's a lovely old car

I see the leather/vinyl thing all the time, especially on old MB where the MB-Tex is a passable fake leather.

lemmer

That was a completed sale. There were two guys willing to pay that price, and maybe only one of them was a shill.

On the leather thing, when I traded in a leatherette BMW the appraiser asked if it had leather. I said no, but he checked yes on the options list anyway and they had it listed on their website as having leather.

Mr_Shiftright

Well you have 3 years newer, half the miles, verified buyer, 100% feedback.

Still paid too much for it though. One sale isn't the market by a long shot. Exceptional car, exceptional price, foolish purchase IMO. Buyer paid 100% over retail but....if he's happy, then he's happy.

I think $4,600 is dead on for a clean 100K mile 560SEC, 1987 and for a stunning 1990 low miles, $10,000 is all the money in the world and beyond.

I agree, $2,200 sounds suspiciously cheap, but if it had like bad AC or a couple rips in the interior or a funny noise somewhere, then $2,200 is more than enough.

These cars can suck up money so fast they'll make your socks roll up and down. Remember you are talking about $16,000 engine rebuilds.

fintail

I didn't see that. Very suspicious....2 feedback bidder, no feedback left although it ended a week ago. That money might go to an absolutely mint <10K mile example destined for a museum or something...but that's it.

I bet a lot of people can't tell a good fake leather from the real thing. I am sure I could be fooled.

andre1969

would a conversion to a Chevy smallblock run? :P

fintail

A good runner for all the clones out there

Future lowrider

lemmer

This is one reason I would stay out of the muscle car market - I can't tell the difference between a $4,200 car and a $42,000 car. Or maybe it is more like I can't see the difference in value.

Like in Mopars, if a wedgie is better than a Hemi for anything short of professional drag racing, why is the price differential so huge?

I suspect if it is up to Gen X to support car values in future years, the muscle car market is in a very tenuous position.

andre1969

with those old Novas, I think the only ones that are really worth anything are the SS396 models, and the handful of Yenko Novas that were made. Otherwise, there's just not much there. Hardtops and convertible body styles were jettisoned with the 1968 restyle, leaving just a 2- and 4-door sedan. Most of them were just 6-cylinder models or tame 307's. FWIW, in stock form the 307-2bbl had 200 hp gross/130 net, so it wasn't much of a step up from a 6-cyl. They could be pretty decent with a 350, though.

On the plus side, I think the '68+ is a sturdier design than the '62-67, so it can probably accommodate a larger, more powerful engine more easily. Personally, I always liked the '75-79 "European" Nova, as it was coined, although I think the enthusiasts tend to prefer the '68-74 style.

Still, that $4200 Nova doesn't seem like a bad car.

Mr_Shiftright

The short answer is it's all about engine size and VIN plate authenticity.

If it's got a rare huge engine and a correct VIN plate and was built between 1964-1972, it's probably worth some money. All the rest are just used cars.