Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

andre1969

I don't remember those S10's being offered as a Diesel, either. IIRC, the GM truck Diesel back then was a 6.2 liter V-8 unit, but I don't know what it was based off of. It never went down in infamy like the Olds Diesels did, so I'm guessing it was built from the ground up to be a Diesel.

Oldsmobile offered three different Diesels. A 260 CID V-8, the more (in)famous 350/5.7, and a 4.3(262?) sawed-off V-6 version. I think the 260 V-8 was only offered from 1978-79, and the 4.3 V-6 maybe from 1982-85. I think the 4.3 went in mainly A-bodies (Celebrity et al) and the 1985 C-body (the shrunken 98/Electra/DeVille), but may have also gone in a few RWD G-bodies (Monte Carlo, Regal, et al).

For some reason I'm thinking the Olds 350 Diesel was offered for awhile in the full-sized pickups, Blazer, Suburban, etc, but I doubt if any Olds Diesel even made it into an S-10.

As for that '73 Eldorado 'vert, it looks like, literally, a lot of car for the money, provided it looks as good in person. I'm probably in the minority here, but when it comes to these behemoths, I actually prefer the 1975 and later models. I know most people think those bulkly 5 mph bumpers messed up the style of the cars, but in the case of the Eldorado, I think it looked better with the blockier front-end and rectangular headlights. I think the '75+ models are longer in the rear, too, unless that's just a visual trick caused by the lack of rear skirts. Those skirted models just look too fat to me and too stubby in the rear, whereas the '75 and later models just look better proportioned. But I imagine that not too many people look at any of these Eldos as a piece of art, regardless. :P

bumpy

I don't remember those S10's being offered as a Diesel, either. IIRC, the GM truck Diesel back then was a 6.2 liter V-8 unit, but I don't know what it was based off of. It never went down in infamy like the Olds Diesels did, so I'm guessing it was built from the ground up to be a Diesel.

The 6.2/6.5L V8 diesel was a new design by Detroit Diesel when it was still part of GM.

I think the S-10 was offered with an Isuzu 2.2L diesel for the first year or three, but certainly not as late as 1987. What we have here is in all likelihood an engine swap: maybe the Isuzu 4, maybe the Olds V6, maybe some old Benz oilburner.

andre1969

Bumpy, I was just about to post an addendum, but you beat me to it! I went to www.fueleconomy.gov, and sure enough, they list a 2.2 Diesel in 1985. But not 1987. I figured it was an Isuzu unit.

My uncle had a 1994 GMC 3/4 ton with a 6.5 Turbo Diesel. Would that have still been related to the older 6.2/6.5? I remember thinking that it looked kinda like a big-block, and I think in CID terms it was actually a 396, so at the time I wondered, jokingly, if GM had just done a Diesel conversion of the old 396!

bumpy

My uncle had a 1994 GMC 3/4 ton with a 6.5 Turbo Diesel. Would that have still been related to the older 6.2/6.5?

Same engine. GM bumped the 6.2 up to 6.5 for 1993 and started playing with turbos around that time.

jlflemmons

S10 diesel was a 2.2L, developed 62HP at 4300RPM. Never saw one, but I have the factory manual on the mid 80's truck.

210delray

62 hp? Now you can get almost 10 times as much with the new Bentley Continental "Speed" edition -- 600 hp.

jlflemmons

From what I remember in my clouded memory, that little diesel could barely get out of it's own way above 55MPH, but would run forever. A basic industrial diesel engine, ala commercial water pumps, that sort of thing.

andre1969

Actually, 62 hp out of a 2.2 Diesel doesn't sound too bad, considering the era. Heck, I think Olds only got 85-90 hp out of the 260 V-8 and 4.3 V-6 Diesels. And even their big 350 only put out 105 towards the end of its run. The earlier ones put out 120, but at some point they revised them, improving their reliability, but it dropped the hp down to 105.

You could also get a Diesel Chevette. It used an Isuzu engine, either a 1.8 or 2.0, and I think put out 52 hp.

lilengineerboy

You could also get a Diesel Chevette. It used an Isuzu engine, either a 1.8 or 2.0, and I think put out 52 hp

I think that and the VW Vanagon diesel tied for the slowest vehicles ever tested by CU or something like that.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm sure the excellent build quality has something to do with the higher perceived survival rate for old MBs and BMWs, but probably the reason is that the Benz owners threw a lot more money at their cars and took much better care of them, is the real reason. I bet the majority were garaged, and did not carry construction materials in the trunk as they might with a domestic sedan.

So my feeling is that when you see a Benz or BMW in a high state of preservation it is as much a tribute to the owners' checkbook as to the car....a bit of both I suspect. You find proof of this when you see old but beautifully preserved 80s domestic cars listed as "grandpa's car" or "grandma's car". Driven sparingly, not abused, and serviced regularly, no doubt and kept in a garage.

Benzes are like kids born in Connecticut and they go to prep school; domestic cars are born in Detroit and hit the streets. :P

fintail

The diesel fintails put out around 55hp...not terribly heavy cars, but still not a lot to push around a 3000 lb car. I imagine these cars are not safe for modern highway driving.

hpmctorque

Your explanation makes sense. After I wrote my message (#11190) regarding the long-term survival rate of MBs and BMWs compared with domestic and Japanese luxury cars, it occurred to me that there's an additional economic explanation, that's related to the price of these respective vehicles. What I mean is, even if we assume a similar percentage rate of depreciation (and this gives the domestics, especially, the benefit of the doubt), the older German cars will be worth more than the older domestics. If one assumes then, for the sake of discussion, that a car is scrapped only after its value declines to a low dollar figure, say $900-$1,100, or whatever, the Lincolns and Cadillacs of the world will reach that low value - the point where repairs are no longer economically justifiable -sooner than the MBs and BMWs. Therefore, the MBs and BWMs will remain in service longer. Similarly, the survival rate for Lexuses should be similar to the German luxury brands, while the survival rate for VWs would be less, but I don't know whether this is the case. I've noticed, though, that there aren't a lot of old Infinitis on the road in the Mid Atlantic region. Even adjusted for their sales, it seems as though there are more Lexuses and Acuras from the early '90s than Infinitis.

andre1969

is that, from what I've seen at least, old Benzes seem to hold up better than old BMWs. Or at least, I guess, they're more likely to get taken care of. I wonder if it's because BMW's are viewed as a sportier car, so they tend to be pushed harder and abused more?

210delray

I dunno, Infiniti never really found its mojo until recently with the G35. The Q45 never sold anywhere close to LS400/430 territory. So scarce then means very scarce now.

hpmctorque

Hmm, maybe.

Have you also noted a scarcity of the earlier Infinitis around here, Andre, especially the Q45s, or is that just my perception?

hpmctorque

I tried to factor that in, but maybe I overestimated the (low) number of Q45s that were sold.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think Japanese cars of any type will be preserved in any appreciable numbers, except for those few low mileage survivors with lucky lives that were never driven much.

As for BMWs, it depends on the model. No one's going to preserve an old 320i or even a 325 from the 80s, but they might preserve a 635i--which, if you think about it, are often seen in pretty nice shape.

andre1969

Have you also noted a scarcity of the earlier Infinitis around here, Andre, especially the Q45s, or is that just my perception?

Oh, I see a Q45 just about every day. But let me clarify that...it's the SAME Q45 I see every day! Someone at work has one, a pearly-white late 90's model. Not sure of the exact year, but it's the style with the grille, and if you squint your eyes enough, at a quick glance it looks similar to a late 90's Seville.

I used to see those old Q45's, the grille-less style that had some of the same styling elements as a '92 Crown Vic, just better executed, on a regular basis, but they seem to have all but dried up. And I hardly ever see the newer Q-ships, the ones with the gatlin gun-style headlights.

I'd say the style I see most often is the G35/45 and, oddly, the MX35/45. There's a lady at work that had a green 2000 I30, which she ditched last October for a Saturn Aura because it was needing a lot of maintenance work. Ironically, she got rid of it the same weekend that an identical I30 ran up under the back of my pickup! Probably did $4-5K or more in damage to the car, and I think about $350 to my truck. At first I thought maybe this girl that hit me was her daughter or granddaughter!

Overall though, I'd say Infiniti is almost invisible compared to Lexus.

hpmctorque

In my opinion, the early, first generation grill-less Qs were the most interesting Qs. They were very competitive with their German, and certainly American, counterparts, in terms of design, quality, performance and technology. I remember reading that the Lexus 400 targeted Mercedes, while Infiniti aimed the Q at BMW. Both were worthy alternatives, except for one thing; they had no heritage. It seems that heritage is more important to luxury car buyers than to non-luxury car owners. I'm guessing that this is one of the reasons, and maybe the main reason, why these Japanese cars haven't developed a collector following. Japanese cars seem to be driven until they depreciate, and then they're scrapped, with less - not all or none, but less - attention paid to their preservation than certain MB and BMW models.

Maybe after Lexuses and Infinitis have been around longer, their collectibility may become similar to their German counterparts. However, as has been discussed numerous times in the Classic Cars discussions, complexity will be a strong head wind for all potential 21st century collectibles.

Mr_Shiftright

Also with rare exception, the old Japanese cars, Q45 included, are just no fun to drive. Even WITH the horsepower in the original Q45, somehow the Japanese managed to engineer all the feedback out of it. A well-tuned old 325i coupe with a manual transmission is still amusing to drive and handles quite well; an old Benz, while not terribly exciting, has a kind of stately solidity to it that still impresses you--it's very "machine-like" and the build quality is outstanding.

But an old Japanese car really is an appliance. Dull plastics, boring shapes, no particular engine or exhaust noises---they are like rental cars (with rare exception).

One could argue that there are plenty of other totally unexciting old cars that people collect, which is true (a '53 Studebaker? Yawn) but these older cars at least have nice styling or heritage or SOMETHING to attract the eye and ear and central nervous system. Old Japanese cars have a hard time getting anyone's attention on any level at all IMO.

And this just can't be MY prejudice, because the collector car market backs me up here... :P

bumpy

the old Japanese cars, Q45 included, are just no fun to drive

They're not supposed to be fun. The equivalent of the Q45 and LS400 in Japan were basically chauffeur cars. Their owners rode around in the back seat in refined isolation.

fintail

I'd guess a manual is rare in this

hpmctorque

True, the market is the final arbiter of value. I kind of admired the early Qs, but hadn't considered the fun factor, so thanks for the further clarification, Shifty. It helps me bridge the difference between my perception of this car and the market. I should add that, while I've driven the first generation G20 (nice handling car, by the way) and the ES300 (dullsville), I've never driven a Q or a Lexus 400. While it doesn't surprise me that the LS400 drives like an isolation chamber, I didn't know that the Q was also unexciting to drive.

Mr_Shiftright

Well "exciting to drive" is a term fraught with peril. I mean, you could drive one like they do in chase scenes in movies and it would be plenty exciting. But given that they are just large 4-door sedans with automatic transmissions, one's potential for excitement is already rather limited. Or if a person never squeal tires or go over 60, then I suppose a rip on the on-ramp must appear quite exciting to that type of individual.

210delray

Yes, a manual is rare. Automatics took America by storm in the 50s, outpacing the take rates of power steering and power brakes, and especially air conditioning, which was quite expensive and not generally very reliable. (For that matter, those early automatics, with some exceptions, were pretty trouble-prone as well.)

So by the mid 60s, most of the big Detroit barges had automatics, even if a manual was technically standard.

When the compacts, midsize cars, and then muscle cars were introduced in the early and mid 60s, there was a slight uptick in interest in manuals again, particularly the "4 on the floor" variety (4 speeds, console-mounted shift lever).

bumpy

The Q45 was more sport-oriented than the LS400 and the Q45a was more sport-oriented than the standard Q. It's still a 2-ton Japanese luxury car with a 4-speed automatic and 2nd gear start, so we're talking a matter of degree and not of kind here.

The G20 was designed as Nissan's European compact sedan (Primera), so it has a front and rear multilink setup.

hpmctorque

I'd like to see Infiniti introduce a third generation G20, now that compact luxury is gaining some traction, but it's not going to happen, since (1) Infiniti is committed to RWD/AWD architecture, leaving FWD/AWD to the Nissan brand, and (2) The G35 has replaced the G20 and I30 as Infiniti's intro level model. Still, I'm sure that Infiniti's marketing people are keeping a close watch on the BMW 1-Series, and may decide to introduce something like a RWD G25, to compete better with the 1-Series and Lexus IS250.

Mr_Shiftright

Fair enough bumpy!

It's interesting that the collector car market now offers thousands of dollars premium for a stick shift version of a car versus the automatic version. (with some rare exceptions).

fintail

Even over time, that's some harsh depreciation...keep it for 12 years, never drive it, lose 100K

An aluminum bodied 126 must be rare...

Mr_Shiftright

I think both those cars are basically sale-proof but somebody might bite on the 500SEC because it's as cheap as they get....until you start driving it that is. That 600SL just screams "run away!"

texases

That body style SL never made much of an impression, on me at least. The previous version had much more going for it, and the current version seems to hold its value much better. I'd ask how one only puts 17k miles on a car in 12 years, but sports agent = multi $$ = trophy cars for showing off, not driving...

fintail

I have seen SECs even cheaper, but as you say, you wouldn't want it. There is a beautiful diamond blue 560SEC in my area, driven by a little old lady. I would pay a top market price for a car like this, it has obviously been cared for.

As texases says, that SL is a trophy car owned by a poser and was not cared for by an enthusiast. Money pit. Still, the depreciation makes me wince, given how little it was used. What a waste.

Mr_Shiftright

How true. I often marvel at how so many technically outstanding, complex and wondrous cars are bought and then put to the most mundane uses. It does seem like a waste of human intelligence and resources to have an SL600 putt around shopping malls.

fintail

Like how most competent SUVs are being used to ferry around Stepford wives and their offspring, or the guy I see in my area who often commutes in a late model Aston Martin.

I am guilty myself though...using an E55 as my daily driver, although I do drive it hard now and then.

fintail

" it just never gets old" - uh, by your description, it has become very old

oregonboy

What an awful color!

andre1969

Yeah, that is a pretty nasty color, especially on that particular car. And this is coming from someone who actually has a preference for greens! I tend to like them with a bit more jade, silver, blue, etc mixed in though, as opposed to those more olive tones.

Green just doesn't seem like a color that would be associated with Benzes in general, though, IMO.

british_rover

There is a GL450 that drives around here in almost that exact shade of green. It is NASTY. :sick:

andre1969

I just found this pic online, and in this case, I think the green they used on this car looks decent. But it seems a bit deeper and with less olive in it than that previous one.

fintail

I can't recall many green MB, maybe some 108s like in that link, and a few 70s and 80s cars. I am sure some early 90s C and E class were ordered in green too.

Today what MB does with some bad colors is calls them "designo" and cons people into believing they are exclusive. Hence, a burgundy E55.

I do recall a pastel green fintail where I used to live too, and it was in nice condition. Any color that screams "1961" suits a fintail.

fintail

Maybe a lemko dream car, too bad no price

british_rover

Designos are almost always deducts in the value books too.

Mr_Shiftright

Low compression? If true, the car is totalled.

Junkyard.

lemko

Oh yeah! I like the 1970 Impala/Caprice very much! My Uncle Daniel had a beautiful dark blue metallic 1970 Impala Custom like that back in the day. Too bad there is no price and better pics.

fintail

Not a surprise. Looking at my 02 E class brochure, one of the designo cars was dark brown with a brown and black interior. Ugh!

oregonboy

A quick scan of Craig's List reveals:

Oval window Baja-Bug with "rare" wheels

GTV 2000 "rust-free project" looks like a parts car to me, but what do I know?

worn-out 914, but hey, it's a 2.0 Liter!

prettier 914 (1.8)

reasonably priced Corsa, I have a soft spot for these. I once owned a '65

clean 1st Gen. Monza

how NOT to sell a vintage car: talk about the aftermarkat sound system rather than the car + no pics

james

qbrozen

Hmmm... rust-free GTV, huh? So I guess that is just rust-colored dirt all over the crushed nose?

jlflemmons

Man, y'all have some weird junk up there in Seattle ...

fintail

Not a bad looking old thing, although not a rocket with that powertrain

bumpy

I can't recall many green MB

I remember seeing a forest green fintail around 15 years ago, and my dad's neighbor has a green SL(? whatever the coupe version of the '90s S class was).

Edit: someone else around here has a two-tone green early-90s E class.