Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

TUCKER -- total abortion. I suspect if we went to the Tucker registry we'd find that #46 was demolished and stripped and has now re-appeared in some ghastly form. Strange thing to do to a $300,000 car if you ask me. I wonder what the story is here? If that $60K bid is real, buyer is totally nuts.

CITROEN DS 21 -- silly price, nice looking car. Try half as much and hug the ankles of the buyer.

CADILLAC -- oh dear, has Cadillac fallen so far that it has to be described as having the coveted "Delorean roof"? Oh, and 35 mpg? Yeah, right. (includes time on flat bed?)

74 Olds -- must be Canadian huh? Nice old car for a driver, and $929 seems about right. Maybe up to $1,200.

stickguy

If I read the ad right, it says that the Merc running gear was installed in 1964. And I doubt that it was a 300K car back then!

So, if that's the case, it is what it is.

british_rover

Shifty does this question and explanation make any sense to you?

Q: can you please extrapolate as to why it has the current running gear in as opposed to the original running gear; it appears to have the motor in front? why is that? also, what is the history of the car and what, if any, original parts do you have for it that aren't pictured? please advise, thanks Aug-10-07
A: The last 10 on the assembly line didn't have the running gear installed. When these cars were purchased by the original owners all were finished out except for number 46 which was fitted out with an Oldsmobile chassis. The first owner of this car had 9 other Tuckers that were original. They were toured around to state fairs and showed off to the public in exhibitions. The second owner purchased it in 1962 and chose this one because of he wanted to drive it cross country and didn't want to have to worry about finding parts. In 1964 he took a brand new Mercury Meteor and changed it out with the Oldsmobile chassis. The dash is also from the Mercury but the rest of the interior is original. It was driven all over the country and shown in car shows. It was also used to premier the Tucker movie at two different theaters. We bought it from the second owner 5 years ago and have done some more improvements in that time. This car has had an engine in the front for almost 60 years now. I do not have any other extra parts like the Franklin engine or the Cord transmission.

I have never heard anything about the last handful of tuckers being unfinished.

andre1969

I think Shifty meant that it would be a $300K car today, if it was in prime condition. I think they wanted to sell Tuckers for something like $2200 back in the day. Which was a lot of money for a car in those days. I think they were priced about the same as a Buick Roadmaster or Chrysler New Yorker. Not quite Cadillac-class, but a step below.

andre1969

Shifty, just out of curiosity, how can you tell that Cutlass is Canadian? Or were you just guessing because they listed the mileage at 28000k instead of 28000M or something?

I do kinda like it. If it wasn't on the wrong coast, and I needed a car, I'd definitely consider it. Maybe I should go outside and shoot my Intrepid... :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

The story sounds very fishy. The "oldsmobile chassis" is, in fact, a true story regarding the prototype that was shown to debut the car, but I never heard of any of the later sequential cars using an Oldsmobile chassis...and even the Olds prototype had a rear engine.

I suppose if the seller has some kind of proof to this rather extravagant story....my theory is that someone just cobbled up the car way back when it wasn't worth anything...did a body switch to an Olds frame perhaps.

In any event, it's about as "Tucker" as a Clenet is a Mercedes 540K at this point.

I think Tucker collectors would be appalled...

ANDRE: Yeah, I just read the KM on the mileage, and given the geography I thought maybe Canada. But without proof, the 28KM mileage claim is just blowing smoke....not that it matters really, given that the car isn't worth a whole lot in the collector market at any rate. Might be a great driver though for somebody if the rust isn't too bad.

210delray

Also on that Tucker, how would one get a Mercury Meteor "chassis" to fit? Weren't the latter Ford Fairlane clones, and as such, were unibody cars? Also, how do you make a dashboard from a completely different car "fit?"

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm....you know, they did make a number of fiberglass Tucker bodies for the movie....

british_rover

You think it is a left over movie car maybe?

qbrozen

i think this seller would have pointed that out, though. He did say it was used at a couple of premiers of the movie.

Mr_Shiftright

I dunno but the whole thing stinks.

qbrozen

oh, the movie didn't stink. i love that movie.

;b
yeah, i know what you meant .... i think.

british_rover

I think it would actually be cooler if that car was one of the ones built for the movie.

Mr_Shiftright

The movie was pretty good but not all that accurate. They had to rush it and left a lot of things out about Tucker---which is probably good because he had his problems.

The movie Preston Tucker was probably more likable and upright than the real one.

I've ridden in a Tucker. They are a handful to drive. If you romp it in first gear you'll snap an axle for sure....and handling is a bit dicey to say the least.

Still, remarkable for its time, albeit quite under-developed. Some Tuckers have a lot of miles on them, though. Uses a modified helicopter engine from Franklin.

british_rover

Didn't Allison make the engine? It was a air cooled flat 6 IIRC.

texases

Per Wiki:
The car's innovative engine continued on the production path for a while longer, however. It was a flat-6 cylinder with hemispherical combustion chambers, fuel injection and overhead valves operated by oil pressure rather than a camshaft. These features would have been auto industry firsts in 1948, but as engine development proceeded, problems appeared. The large 589 in³ (9.7 L) engine provided insufficient power, was very noisy, and was difficult to start.

Tucker had promised 150 hp (112 kW), but his innovative 589 was not working out, so another engine was sourced. The company first tried the Lycoming aircraft engine but it would not fit in the car's rear engine compartment. The Franklin air-cooled helicopter flat-6 did fit, however, so Tucker purchased four samples for $5,000 each. The company's engineers converted it to a water-cooled design. It proved very successful, producing 166 hp (124 kW) and 372 ft-lb of torque. Tucker quickly bought the Franklin company to secure the engine source.

andre1969

Did most aircraft engines back in the day have hemispherical combustion chambers? Chrysler used to advertise the old Dodge/DeSoto/Chrysler Hemis as "Aircraft designed", so that made me wonder.

texases

I don't think most of the general aviation, flat four or flat six air-cooled engines were hemis. IIRC, they were/are a very reliable version of a VW bug engine (only general design, I mean). Key for aviation engines is reasonable weight (air cooled) and reliability (simple, few things to go wrong). They weren't ultimate technology items. Nothing cutting edge, only proven items allowed. Porsche tried their hand at it recently (90s?) with the air cooled 6, don't know what became of it.
(edit) Here a photo of a Lycoming flat 4:


p.s. - Chrysler may have been referring to the (I think) hemi heads used in engines like the Merlin - quite a stretch! [edit 2 - turns out even the Merlin wasn't a hemi - they tried something like a hemi configuration, didn't work, went to parallel intake/exhaust valves, so I'm not sure which engines Chrysler might have been thinking of - maybe radials? Stretch X10!]

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, Tucker's engineer designed a water jacket for the air-cooled Franklin (which ran on carburators in the actual car). To assemble the prototype, they heated the engine block in Tucker's mother's oven! This gives you an idea of what a rag-tag operation Tucker was in the beginning.

Ultimately I think Tucker's downfall was his big mouth. He was a great salesman, not an engineer. I don't think the Big Three was afraid of him so much as very PO'd at him for ragging on them in the press day after day. I'm sure a Michigan senator did the Big Three a favor by helping Tucker into the boiling vat of the SEC.

I doubt Tucker would have been successful anyway. He was severely undercapitalized for an automotive start-up. Even Mr. Kaiser himself couldn't pull it off with way more money and a much more developed automobile.

The film glossed over a pretty complex story, as is often necessary in films. I don't think Tucker was a criminal, but his business practices were very fast and very loose.

qbrozen

OK... been a long time coming.

Last we heard, the bimmer failed emissions.

I took it to an acquaintance of a friend who .. uhhh... could get it to pass. The machine was "down" that day, but he said to give him a call and i just gotta give him $275.

Now, for that money, I thought later, I could just fix it. So that's what I did. Ordered a new cat online for $260 with free shipping. It was a real bear of a job. I had to call in reinforcements halfway through because it really requires removing the entire exhaust, disassembling, replacing pieces, reassembling, and putting it all in as one piece. Oh, and since this new cat was poorly made (i now know better not to trust a big name like Magnaflow), I had to pull the exhaust manifold, mount it to the new downpipes, and force them back onto the head .... all while someone else holds up the exhaust from underneath.

THEN, after it was all together, I start it up and *surprise* there is a hole in the new cat!! Turns out, not only were the welds really crappy and the unit not aligned properly, the welds around the cat were not complete. Rather than take it all apart again, my father put his masterful welding experience to work and finished Magnaflow's job for them while still on the car.

Wifey took it to inspection this morning and I got word that it passed! Not only that, but passed with flying colors.

I did run through some of that emissions helper fluid last week and threw in a bottle of octane booster for good measure this morning .... didn't want to take any chances. Whether that stuff helped is anyone's guess.

texases

Of course...the real story would not make good movie fodder...see "Who Killed the Electric Car"...

texases

You got through this without snapping any studs? Congratulations!

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah Americans LOVE conspiracies! Conspiracies serve to deflect the onus of stupidity from idolized figures. Tucker should have kept his mouth shut and his bookkeeping open.

british_rover

I never saw that movie was it any good or just conspiracy nonsense?

Mr_Shiftright

It was pretty good as far as it went. A bit rushed with a lot of compression of time and events, but all in all, not bad for a "car movie". I don't think the audience learned any real history but they had a good time.

texases

Re: "Who Killed..." IMHO, the latter. The movie tries to blame the failure of GM's EV1 on a conspiracy of the carmakers and oil cos., rather than the limitations of the vehicle (range, cost, etc.).

qbrozen

yes, i was shocked, too.

andre1969

Wifey took it to inspection this morning and I got word that it passed! Not only that, but passed with flying colors.

Congrats on that...I know those emissions tests can be a real annoyance. My uncle needed a new converter put on his '03 Corolla. It came out to $585 at a local muffler shop, which is a lot better than the $1500 the dealer wanted! Well, my uncle should have just taken it through the test once he got it fixed, to get it over with, but about two weeks later, the SES light came on again.

This past Saturday, we took it to the muffler shop again, and they checked it out, and found the O2 sensor was loose. The guy said that should do it, but if the light comes back on, to bring it back. So I tried to take it to the emissions center right then, in the hopes of just getting it out of the way. Unfortunately, the light came on again once I was about halfway there. So, back it went again.

They put another converter on it, and it was actually ready Monday, but I had to work late that day. My uncle works some hideously long hours (construction), so that's why I've been handling this stuff for him. Anyway, yesterday I got the car, ran it through the test, and it did just fine.

One thing that's nice about newer cars is they just plug in a code reader, check the OBD-II for codes, and you're on your way. I do kinda miss the old treadmill test though, because you got a printout that showed the actual pollution results, and that can make for some interesting comparisons.

I remember the first time my Intrepid went through the test, it went on the treadmill, but every time thereafter has been OBD-II. I was kinda hoping to see the treadmill results, to see how the pollution levels changed as the car aged, but oh well. At least the OBD-II gets you in and out much quicker.

fintail

Too bad this lemko-mobile has no pic

Decent looking survivor

Mr_Shiftright

Cressidas always smell bad for some reason. :confuse:

hpmctorque

Even after 26 years?

Regarding the '86 Olds 98, they can be nice old cars, but the original transmissions on these rarely made it past 25,000. Therefore, given the age of this car you'd have to factor a tranny overhaul into the price, if the original tranny hasn't already been replaced. For this reason, I wouldn't pay over $2,000 for this Olds, maybe $2,500 if the condition is consistent with the mileage. What's the maximum you'd pay, lemko and andre?

andre1969

Cressidas always smell bad for some reason.

Could it be something they used in the padding, perhaps? Cressidas back then were much more plush and luxurious than your typical Japanese import, but maybe there's something they used in the padding or other materials that just doesn't age well, smell-wise?

british_rover

You know I have noticed that too. All the Cressidas I have ever worked on had kind of a funny smell.

Mr_Shiftright

Kind of a sickly sweet smell, yeah. Old BMWs smell, too. That I think is from the "horsehair" stuffing in the upholstery. Old BMWs smell like burning electrical wires. Old Audis really smell, too, the 5000 and 4000 models. Can't place that smell but it's very distinct.

MGs smell but that's just leaking gas.

british_rover

For the longest time I thought it was an old person thing as nearly all of those cars I saw were driven by old people.

Then one day a very attractive(understatement of the year here she was smoking hot) 5 foot 9 blonde in her mid 20s came in driving an old cressida and the car still smelled funny.

qbrozen

our bimmer smells. It smells like something died in the vents. I keep telling my wife its decomposing leather. haha.

texases

Yep, went to look at an old 528i, suffered from both the smell and the 'drive it till it dies, no maintenance needed' syndrome.

texases

When did they stop using horse hair for the seats? I think they still used it in the '70s. And mice, etc, do love car vents, so you might be right :surprise:

Mr_Shiftright

That's not a good pick-up line however.

Jaguar XJ6s always...ALWAYS...smell of gasoline and mildewed carpeting.

Speaking of smelly cars...here's a cute one:

http://ventura.craigslist.org/car/394302450.html

british_rover

Its true they do well at least up until the X300 bodystyle I never noticed that smell in those but the previous bodystyles do smell like that.

fintail

Hmmm...those pics were taken in England.

All of my MB have had kind of a sweet smell to them, maybe because of leather or wood cleaner too.

andre1969

I've noticed that a lot of 70's and early/mid 80's domestics have a distinct smell to them as well, perhaps because of the increased use of plastics, and also because of the cars themselves being more airtight. It seems to be mainly the downsized models, but I've noticed it a bit in my '76 LeMans, too. I remember sitting in a late 70's Malibu that was for sale at one of the Carlisle events a few years back, after not having been in one of these cars for awhile, but that scent just came back to me, and reminded me of my old '80 Malibu.

I seem to notice it more with GM cars of that era, but Chryslers seem to have a scent of their own. I don't notice it so much with my '79 NYer 5th Ave because it has leather seats, but when I got my base New Yorker back in May, I noticed the scent immediately. I don't really remember that smell in my '89 Gran Fury so much, though. Or my '85 Silverado, but the truck still has a lot of good old fashioned exposed metal in it, so maybe its plastic content isn't as high as on the cars.

New cars are really bad, though! I remember the day I bought my Intrepid. I parked it in the garage under my condo that night. My roommate didn't know I bought the car, and was working late that night. When he came in the door, he was like "I recognize that smell!", opened the door from the foyer to the garage, and there it was. Now that I think about it, the smell of that car permeated the whole condo! And contrary to what was said in the movie "Christine", that new-car smell was NOT the sweetest smell in the world! :surprise:

jrosasmc

You know what also smells? Old Saabs, especially mid- to late-80s 900s. I don't know what it is but that smell is very distinct. I think it has something to do with the upholstery or the ventilation system.

Old Volvos have always smelled good to me, for some reason. But maybe that is because I am a Volvo man. I love the smell of old 1800s and especially the 140s.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah old Volvos don't have an offensive odor like the old German cars do. Older Benzes have that same horsehair smell, which isn't objectionable, unless it's a diesel, and then we all know what they smell like.

My Saabs smelled like burning piles of money

urnews

My Saabs smelled like burning piles of money.

LOL.

Mr_Shiftright

Those Saab turbos were amazing...something broke every two weeks it seemed, and NEVER the same part! I had three of them. I could take them apart blind-folded by now. Worst cars I ever owned....but fun....a Fiat would be like a Lexus in reliability compared to a Saab. And whenever you bad-rap one to a Saab lover, invariably you get "well, if you had only swapped out the transmission gears every 30K like you were SUPPOSED TO..." LOL!

fintail

This doesn't look completely awful for the money - and the strange thing is a kid I knew in high school had one identical to this. In fact, I have a feeling it is the same car. His was that same less than awesome aftermarket blue color, and he had wheels just like that on his (which I think were from an AMC maybe? 70s vintage anyway). There's too much the same about it, it has to be his old car.

lemko

If the body isn't all rotted-out, it looks like a pretty decent deal. It doesn't look that hard to restore from the pictures. I imagine the original color was more of a lighter teal-blue metallic.

fintail

I believe the car my friend had was actually white under the modern paint. It is uncanny how this resembles that car.

I had a 66 Galaxie 2 door HT, same color interior, but dark blue paint. It had a 390/4 barrel.

lemko

My girlfriend got her father's 1966 Ford Galaxie 500 sedan as a hand-me-down when she was in high school. It was teal blue metallic with black cloth/vinyl interior. I'm not sure what engine it had, but knowing her rather conservative Dad, it must've been a tame 289 V-8 with 2bbl or something like that.