Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

lemko

The 1.0 litre 3-cylinder engine in the Chevrolet Sprint/Geo Metro also had siamesed cylinders. I often thought it meant the bores were so close together they touched. Now I know it just means there's no water jacket between them.

I had two cars with the Olds 403 V-8 and didn't realized it was also a siamesed engine. Heck, I had no problem with the 403s in both my 1979 Buick Park Avenue and 1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency. It was an excellent engine.

qbrozen

yup. 2+2 is the most undesirable, yet the one I like... go figure. If I'm not mistaken, it looks like the interior may be shot (the little bit of the driver's seat in the pic may be torn up ... or just a bad pic). I'm thinking $12k-$14k, personally, depending on the real-world condition. Heck, it could be a rust bucket underneath and worth pretty much the cost of the engine rebuild.

andre1969

I had two cars with the Olds 403 V-8 and didn't realized it was also a siamesed engine. Heck, I had no problem with the 403s in both my 1979 Buick Park Avenue and 1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency. It was an excellent engine.

Lemko, how many miles did those two cars get up to before they got "retired"? Weren't they both actually still running strong, but had just gotten totaled in accidents?

I'm guessing that the 403 is a great engine to have in a car, as-is, but it might not make a good candidate for hot-rodding in the same manner that an Olds 350 might.

I also imagine that, because of the heat dissipation issues caused by not eliminating the water jacket, that if you overheated the engine, the results might be more disastrous.

Chrysler had a similar problem with the 360, I've heard. On the 360, the water jackets are narrower than on a 318, and I guess with age they can get clogged up. Or, perhaps the narrower jacket just causes heat dissipation problems similar to the Olds 403. Supposedly Mopar copcars with the 360 were shot by 80-90,000 miles, whereas on the 318 cars the engine would often survive until the car got retired from the force, handed down to a less fortunate police jurisdiction, then auctioned off an picked up by a taxi company, and still be running when the bruised and battered hulk was driven off to the junkyard!

lemko

The Park Avenue got only 78K and the Oldsmobile got 148K. Absolutely no problems with the engines on either car. True, both were victims of accidents, one my fault and the other just bad luck. The Olds survived the accident as the damage was confined to the back end of the car and was still driveable, but I kept being pulled over by cops due to the car's condition and sold it for $400 to some fella. The Park Avenue suffered severe front-end damage and was no longer driveable.

gsemike

Hemi clone being passed off as original

My friend looked at this a few weeks ago. It was on Craig's for 27. The seller was forthright that it was an original 318 car.

Now it's on ebay for 52 being represented as a factory hemi car. From the pics, it looks like a different house so someone is looking to make 25 grand on a flip.

jlflemmons

Was used in the TransAm Firebird as an option. There was a HO option that got you the Poncho 400, or the 'standard' 400 which was the Olds. The 403 was based on Olds "small block" which was really more of a mid-sized block as compared to the GM small block (Chevy). The engine was operated well within it's maximum performance boundries and if well maintained would run for a long, long time. The Olds 350 in high compression trim output 310HP in standard trim and 325HP in HO trim. Either way, as long as you ran premium fuel, kept the oil changed and in good tune, they would emulate the energizer bunny and just keep going and going and ...

jlflemmons

I always love it when the seller uses phrases like "appears to be" and "to the best of our knowlege" or "as far as we know".

They are catch phrases for "we are lying through our teeth, but this way you can't sue us".

qbrozen

but he says the numbers match.(??)

andre1969

Actually, I think what happened with Pontiac was that if you bought a car that would normally have a 400 in it, in a place like California or some high-altitude areas, they'd force you to get an Olds 403 instead. Oldsmobile V-8's were cleaner running than Chevy engines or Pontiac engines of that era. Not sure about Buicks, though. Pontiac engines preferred to run cool, and could get extra cranky with emissions controls that forced them to run hotter, so that was probably an extra nail in the coffin for the Pontiac V-8.

Anyway, if you got something like a 1977 1/2 Can Am or the Trans Am/Firebird, the 400 had 200 hp, standard. If you were in an area that forced you to get the 403, it had the same 180-185 hp that it put out in regular passenger cars. There was also a "regular" 400, that put out 170-180 hp, but I dunno if it was offered in the Firebird/Trans Am.

They also substituted 403's for Pontiac 400's in cars like the '77-78 Catalina/Bonneville (may have been offered in '79 as well, I've heard conflicting stories about this), and the 1977 LeMans and Grand Prix.

There was a slightly hopped-up 403 that was offered in the Olds Toronado in 1977-78. I think it put out 190-200 hp.

Mr_Shiftright

You can make any car "match" these days. You can take a 318 car, buy a VIN plate and fender tag from a Hemi car that was wrecked or is rusted beyond repair, and re-stamp a used Hemi engine. You can even buy fake window stickers and build sheets.

What is HARD to fake is casting numbers and date codes, but I understand some cars are showing up with expertly crafted raised casting numbers made out of epoxy, applied like they do when they decorate cakes.

Getting the title to match is tricky but also possible as a few states have very loose and corrupted DMVs.

If a car doesn't identify the engine through the VIN, then you really have to watch out. It's then very easy to find a date-correct engine, deck the block through machining, and stamp in the correct number sequence and suffixes.

Really, these days, without 7 different kinds of proof, you got nothin'. What you really need with a Hemi is:

1. Correct VIN plate
2. Correct Fender tag
3. All correct date codes on everything
4. Original factory build sheet
5. Original window sticker
6. Owner records
7. Galen Govier Authentication

I'd say to plunk down $100--$200K, you'd better have AT LEAST # 1,2,3 and 7, and preferably 4.

Just saying "to the best of our knowledge" doesn't get you off the hook--you can be held accountable for misrepresentation even if you are ignorant of the fault. What you avoid is outright fraud charges.

fintail

Maybe the product of an unknown joint-venture

Mr_Shiftright

Looks like the little-known Mercedes 733.

fintail

I think it's a MB 528SE

Mr_Shiftright

Well you'll forgive me for mis-identifying such a rare model!

stickguy

You guys should appreciate this.

I spent a couple of hours yesterday at the tire store getting new sneaks for our minivan, and chatted with various other people in the waiting room. Turned out to be one other total gear head/car nut (mixed in with the people that had no clue about cars).

Turns out we both have accords, and were comparing the merits of the 17mm rear sway bar vs. the stock 14. Stuff like that. Even got into a nice conversation with an older dude with a '99 Vette.

The kicker was, this was a younger woman (probably about 30) that could probably pass for an Eagles cheerleader, but she does her own brake jobs! And her Accord was a V6, 6 speed coupe.

The funniest part was when she went into the shop to ask the tire guy to torque the lugnuts to 100 ft/lbs (so she can stand on the lug wrench and be able to break them loose).

The look on the guys face was priceless. I'm sure they get very few people with that kind of knowledge, and I have to guess she might have been the first attrive blond with a request like that!

It would have been humorous if they had come in to try and sell her a bunch of stuff the car didn't need, hoping to take the "dumb blond" to the cleaners!

michaellno

It would have been humorous if they had come in to try and sell her a bunch of stuff the car didn't need, hoping to take the "dumb blond" to the cleaners!

Reminds me of a story. My sister is blonde and cute and, at one point in the late 80's and early 90's, owned an RX-7.

She took it in for service at the dealer, who I believe attempted to sell her on a bunch of unnecessary service. I can't remember exactly what happened, but it ended with her threatening to go to either the BBB or the state AG's office about their practices.

The dealer capitulated and sis got satisfaction.

Oh, BTW, over in the "prices paid" forum, there is a guy who bought a '94 MB S500. Here is his post:

hope it isn't a lemon but I got it for $1700 I am having some tran leak and hydraulic system leaks but I hope to hold on to it. I love the way it drives.

Any advice for him?

au1994

advice: Run away!!! Far away!!!

texases

Stock up on fluids! He can get to a gallon a day and still be big $$ ahead. I'm only (half) kidding...at least get a qualified mechanic to look at it and give him the cost and importance of each fix.

edit - may want to have someone good at CPR with him...

edit 2 - if he can't afford the mechanic, he sure can't afford an S500!

qbrozen

Turns out we both have accords, and were comparing the merits of the 17mm rear sway bar vs. the stock 14.

I'm listening ....

Mr_Shiftright

Buy 55 gallon drums of fluid and keep pouring it in there until the car stops, then unscrew the license plates, start to whistle, and walk away.

fintail

He can sink 10-15K into repairs to have a car worth half that if everything else is pristine.

It was $1700 for a reason. The cheapest Mercedes is always the most expensive.

fintail

If you are brave...

michaellno

I know nothing about either car, but wanted to pass along the S-class story to the experts here to see what the consensus was.

Good luck! seems to be the answer.

On the Jag, where is seminole_kev? Doesn't he own something similar?

But, he's in FL and the Jag is in WA - a bit of a drive.

stickguy

the bigger bar firms up the handling a bit (but I don't recall specifically what you will see, other than less roll).

I remember reading discussions on the vtec board about the advantages of putting on the TL 17mm bar. I'm just too lazy to do it!

She did say that if you to 18mm it tightens up the back end too much, and you need to put on a bigger front bar too, which is much harder to install.

This is the kind of vital knowledge they don't teach you in college!

qbrozen

ya, i had read about the TL bar a while back somewhere. i thought maybe u had one and could say yay or nay. I've grown to really dislike the way this car handles.

texases

Yes, I thought stiffer bars in the rear might help some, but emphasizes the FWD's understeer. And what about the TL's handling don't you like, gbrozen? Just curious...

lemko

Aaaghhh!!! There's a difference between courage and brave stupidity.

qbrozen

I have an Accord.

It just doesn't feel good in the bends. I mean, the understeer is probably the 2nd worst I've ever experienced. The worst was our Forester. An adjustable rear sway worked WONDERS on that vehicle. Even in my volvo, even though it understeered, the rear tires would break loose before the front. Not so with the Accord. I guess maybe the volvo had better weight balance? If you can believe it. I dunno.

Mr_Shiftright

RE: Jag Mark II 3.4

I think "free" is about the right price. There's everything wrong about it....it's a 3.4 not a 3.8, it's an automatic, and it's a total wreck.

On a fine day with a drunken rich bidder, you might get $20,000 for a restored version of this car.

Did the seller mistake it for a 3.8 with 4-speed and overdrive and wire wheels?

Between the two cars, a vast world of difference to buyers.

qbrozen

heck, sign me up for one of those $20k models! I never would have pegged a '50s Jag that cheap. Then again, for $20k, I could get a decent 2+2 E-type.

texases

Here you go, $18k out the door!
Nice looking '59 Mk I Jag for $18k

Mr_Shiftright

Oh you don't want a 3.4 automatic at any price, really. You'd be disappointed I think. Or you could buy an even worse pig and get a Mark VIII. Just spend an extra $10K and get the 3.8 4-speed......nice, nice.

andre1969

here's a Dodge Challenger, with a "Hemi", that's actually affordably priced and should be reasonable on fuel economy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150196451045

Still probbably overpriced, though. :P

qbrozen

no, no, i wouldn't want an automatic, that's for sure.

The one texas posted doesn't look bad. And its a stick.

so what's the real-world power difference between the 3.4 and 3.8?

Mr_Shiftright

It's noticeable but mostly as torque. I think it's only 10 more HP.

What you REALLY want is a 3.8 sedan with the 4.2 motor installed (245 HP stock), high compression head for a bit more HP and a 5-speed manual transmission custom made for the car. Thus you get rid of the troublesome overdrive, which might not like all that power, and you have a car that can really move out on the modern freeway. Of course, updated power steering and brakes as well.

fintail

Good hauler

Mr_Shiftright

tad pricey for a hearse I must say...but a pioneer "crossover" vehicle?

im_brentwood

Oh I agree... but there were no 3.8L Mk1s

qbrozen

ya know, as I think more about it, I don't think its a car I'd really enjoy all too much, anyway. It is just a sedan, after all. Very very pretty to look at, but I'm sure the driving experience leaves alot to be desired.

andre1969

my buddy with the two 1978 Mark V's is now looking at BMW's. He just shot me a link to this. My knowledge of BMWs is mainly limited to two things...1) the bigger, more expensive ones usually depreciate faster and are more pricey to maintain/repair and 2) the ones shipped from Europe usually have less orange peel than the ones made in America.

So could anybody tell me anything about this 530i? Any common trouble areas? Reasonable price range?

texases

That's one I'd like, except I'm not sure about getting a manual on a fairly big, heavy sedan, doesn't sound like a lot of fun. But the drivetrain's well tested. As for the price, $20k seems high, nothing on ebay's gotten a bid over $14k.

stickguy

price might be a tad high, but that is a nice car. Original MSRP probably pushed 45K all loaded up.

The stick works fine on that car with the 6 cylinder. It actually isn't that large or heavy of a car. Probably smaller than a current Altima.

qbrozen

dang. didn't know those could be had so cheap (meaning what others are saying, not the asking price). then again, it IS 6 years old. low miles, though.

let's see... 3500 lbs and 225 hp? eh. It won't be winning any stoplight races, but it won't be a slug, either.

Why the heck didn't they make a 530 wagon?

texases

Remember, I said nothing bid over $14k. Most all of those were no-sells. The low mileage is nice, so it would be interesting to see how far off $20k they'd come...$16k? And yes, a 530i wagon would be perfect for me.

Mr_Shiftright

The bidders were astute, probably just a tad light by not allowing for low miles and sport package option, which should be worth $2K; however, these premiums are offset by the penalty for stick shift in this car IMO.

Ergo, I'd place fair market at about $15,000 --$16,000 tops.

RE: Jaguar 3.4....not only wasn't there a 3.8, there wasn't even a Mark I. That name was retrofitted after the Mark II came out. As for driving experience, a well-sorted Mark II 3.8 can actually be fun to drive. These aren't cows like the bigger Jaguar sedans of that era. Downside? These "compact sedans" from Jaguar really know how to generate rust in every nook and cranny.

Plan to spend a lot of time in the British ferrous oxide mines.

texases

I took another look at that Jag I posted previously - almost worth th $$ just to open the hood and look at that engine, but why that color? They call it burgundy, but it comes across more purple, and the seats that match don't help. Some good brown leather would really improve it.

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe the camera skewed the color. I hope it really isn't Chevy low rider burgundy/strawberry metallic. The engine looks very nice. Those are great engines and one of the longest-production engines in auto history--about 40 years.

fintail

Not many of these survived, for good reason

This is pretty, it's been on CL for at least the past 6 months...owner needs to change something

Mr_Shiftright

VW 412---Well you could tell everyone it's got a Porsche 914 engine in it!! (which is true, but kinda funny).

Not such a bad car really for the price. I'd buy it for $1,200 or so.

'51 Merc: I don't know what the problem is--maybe if it were black and lowered and had more do-dads on it, it would sell. Or it could be the continually waning interest in early 50s cars. Seems very nice.

qbrozen

That merc is real purdy!