Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,623
    Two tone green...must be a looker. Special order of some kind.

    The S-class coupe of the 90s is a good example to use for showing the messy Mercedes naming conventions of the period. When it was introduced in 1992, it was a 500/600SEC. Then in 1994 it became the S500/S600. Then in 1998 the CL500/600. All the same basic car. Those big 90s coupes are pretty odd cars too.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    GTV is worth fixing. There's plenty of room in the car to restore it. Should be worth $15K-18K when you're done. The 914 is twice the price to buy, and maybe half as valuable when done, so no go on the 2.0 914 at that price.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,623
    Oh, that 300TD is a very unusual color. I can't recall ever seeing one like that before. Looks really decent. And I love the typo quote "DIESEL, EXPECT 30-35 MPH "...hahaha!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yup....expect 30--35 mpg, GET 20-25 mpg, BE very PO'd when you find that out after believing the ad.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    The Maverick. I still have mental scars from doing a tune up on one of those beasts with a 302 V8. That number 2 plug was a nightmare.

    The Chevette. Oh Lordy that would be a hoot with a 4.3L. Right up until the torque ripped the body in half. A 2.8L would be a lot easier and more appropriate. As long as you didn't have to go around a corner at better than a walking pace!
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Maybe the Benz wagon gets 30-35 mpg...at 30-35 mph.

    As for the Chevette, assuming that it's possible to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, the GM Quad 4 or current OHC Ecotec 2.2 might be a better choice than the V6.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think a Chevette with a larger engine would just make for an even nastier car than the original...these are really built on the cheap. It may be the cheapest car ever in terms of cutting corners on...on...everything....
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    I've seen Dodge Colts, the old mid-70's 2-door hardtop style, with 440's put in there. I wonder how much beefing up it took to make something like that work?

    Would something like a Chevy 4.3 V-6, or a smallblock Chevy or Ford V-8 fit in a Chevette without too much cutting in the engine bay area?
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Better luck with the 2.8 or 3.1. 60 degree design as opposed to 90 and will fit in a narrower engine bay. Think Fiero.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,152
    IIRC, GM was running some Chevettes with the 2.8 at their test track, considering production, letting C/D have a go. Wasn't all bad, supposedly, and they were fast (course, that's a relative thing in Chevette-land).
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    I'd imagine with the right 2.8, the Chevette could have been a little sleeper. I think the fuel injected 2.8 that went in stuff like the Citation X-11 put out up to 135 hp, although more mundane versions were more like 125. And I think the carbureted version was more like 112.

    For their time, X-11's were pretty quick. Well, when they were running, at least! :blush:
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Got to ride in a Fiero with a professionally transplanted 3.8L HO engine.

    Incredible acceleration, but a bit tail heavy. The company that did the work also offered a Northstar V8 option. That version required wheelie bars.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Exactly the problem. These old GM chassis can't take any kind of power without considerable modification, at which time one wonders why one would put such effort into such cheap little cars. I suppose the "freak factor" would be the primary reason to do it.

    High powered Chevettes are great for "beer talk" but you wouldn't really want to do it. :P Well at least I wouldn't.

    Small+fast? Get an original MINI or a Honda CRX
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Or even more freaky...

    VTEC powered Old mini
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Phew! Lotta work but you'd end up with a car that would give a Porsche fits on a tight track. Of course, it would be an animal to drive, but WTH.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I have seen one of them in person and it was impressive.

    They were using a Type-R engine B18. I think those were 195 hp stock and this one was tweaked to do about 220 hp at about 8,000 rpm.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Sign me up! My dream car..."small but fierce" is how I like 'em. The MINI is a race-proven chassis (or could be) so I'd have confidence in this conversion.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Yeah, Chevette's probably aren't good candidates for more power. My only familiarity with Chevettes is that once, back in the day, I rented one for a day. Since my expectations weren't high, it didn't disappoint me. At the time I thought it was okay for an econbox.

    I do know, though, that some people hop up and race Pintos on quarter mile tracks. Could it be that, once you've modified the gas tank so that it's less vulnerable to blowing up, Pintos are stronger, structurally, than Chevettes?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the Pinto was a Lexus compared to the Chevette, if my memory serves me correctly.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I think the Pinto was a Lexus compared to the Chevette,

    I'm no Lexus fan, but you should bite your tongue for using Pinto and Lexus in the same sentence. LOL.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    Google search "Mr. Wellwood" and take a look at some of his funny/scary projects.

    Just remember, "if you don't break traction, you'll break something else."
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    He says: "Try to find a vintaqe BMW for less"

    So I did, and came up with any number of very nice 530 4-doors for $4000--$5,000. And THEY don't need paint.

    Get real on the price, man!
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    As much as I am an Olds fan, '73 and '74 were not banner years. As great as the 350 was in terms of durability, the '73 and '74 were monsters to keep in tune. All the emissions were vacuum servo and check valve. Figure plugs and points every 10K if you want them to run right.

    And we won't even talk about gas mileage. Okay, we will. Figure absolute best around 18MPG on highway under 70MPH.

    I still wonder what that motor would have been like with a tuned MPI and full electronic control. Could've been one of the best V8's in history.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,152
    I'd go for the slightly later 528i, if I could find a clean one...
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    You are so right about the "Rube Goldberg" emissions controls and the gas mileage. My mother had a 1973 Chevy Monte Carlo with the 350 Chevy V8. It took a couple of trips on a tow truck back to the dealer in the early months to get the carb running right. And try as I might, the best mileage I could get, even at 55 mph on the highway, was 19 mpg in winter (no a/c of course) and 18 mpg in summer (a/c on).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    MUCh better choice, the 528i. The 530s of that vintage will crack cylinder heads with regularity.

    I have no idea why someone would restore an old 530i. Very odd choice.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,793
    typical story of putting way too much money into the wrong car.

    The engine sure does look purdy now, though.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    And we won't even talk about gas mileage. Okay, we will. Figure absolute best around 18MPG on highway under 70MPH.

    Heck, I'd sacrifice a couple of my co-workers if I could get that kind of fuel economy out of my '76 LeMans! It has a 350-2bbl, and I think about the best I ever got out of it was maybe 15.6. But then, it's a Pontiac 350 and not an Olds 350, and I think the Olds engines were a bit more economical. At least, they tended to adapt much better to emissions controls than Pontiac engines did, partly because Pontiac engines tended to run cool.

    I guess the cooler-running aspect of it may have played a hand in poorer fuel economy, as well. And I've also heard that, if driven gently, a 4-bbl can return better economy than a 2-bbl, because the primaries are smaller?

    It was also pointed out to me at a GM show that my LeMans's 350 was also an early smogger engine, originally equipped with a smog pump. The pump is long gone, but you can see where the pulley is for the 4th belt. And there are also some metal air tubes that, at first, looked like part of the air conditioning system, but upon closer inspection were attached to nothing. I know back in those days, when emissions crap got removed, *usually* it would make the car run better and get better fuel economy, although actual emissions would go up. But I wonder if some things, when removed, could cause economy to suffer a bit?

    All I know is that it really shows how far downhill cars went in the 70's. My '67 Catalina convertible, with its 400-4bbl, will blow the doors off my LeMans, yet it gets better economy. I've gotten close to 18 on the highway, and I'm sure the Catalina outweighs the LeMans by a few hundred pounds, as well.

    I do kinda like that Cutlass sedan, though. Good looking car, and I've always liked that shade of green. I know most people prefer the coupes, but I even like the 4-doors on these, I think partly because the greenhouse was so open and airy...downright futuristic compared to Ford and Mopar rivals. In contrast, the coupes are kind of claustrophobic, especially with the opera windows like my LeMans has. Plus, you could still roll down the back windows on the 4-doors. Although GM tried eliminating that for 1978. :sick:

    BTW, when DID GM finally switch everything over to electronic igntion? Were '73-74 Olds 350's still running around with points and a condenser? :blush: I'd hope my '76 LeMans is electronic. I haven't had to do anything under the hood to it yet, so I never bothered to check. Coming mainly from Chryslers, I guess I just sometimes forget that the others were a bit late in switching over to electronic ignition. Heck, by 1974, Chrysler was so ahead of the game that they were already messing up their cars with computer controls (Lean Burn). I don't think GM started muffing up their cars in a similar fashion until they started putting those ECU's down in the passenger-side kick panel for 1981.
  • fortee9erfortee9er Member Posts: 134
    I was catching up with posts from the last several weeks when I saw this thread. I remembered seeing a mid 90s MB 600CL (the V12 coupe version of the large S sedan) gassing up at Costco and thinking what an odd color for such a car. It was painted a dark olive green and made the car look like sh*t. I am partial to black and this car would have been spectacular in black.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    Ok, the cars this guy have for sale or not projects, and I expect that Shifty will advise that they are wildly overpriced, but they sure are purdy. They guy writes the descriptions with enthusiasm and flair as well.

    "collector" cars

    james
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,776
    Heck, I'd sacrifice a couple of my co-workers if I could get that kind of fuel economy out of my '76 LeMans!

    That is hardly saying anything, Andre! Sounds like a win-win to me! :P
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    That is hardly saying anything, Andre! Sounds like a win-win to me!

    True. In fact, I just ran into one of said cow-irkers at lunch. But that didn't finish her off so I threw it into reverse and ran into her again! :shades:

    Now that I think about it, I vaguely remember as a kid, Mom complaining about her '75 LeMans coupe, with a 350-2bbl, only getting around 15 mpg in mixed driving. I remember it was such a big deal because the '80 Malibu she replaced it with averaged in the low 20's.

    My grandparents had a '72 Impala 4-door hardtop with a 350-2bbl, and I remember Granddad saying it would get around 13-14 in local driving, and maybe up to 19 on a trip. But, that was before they started really choking them down with emissions controls.

    I dunno if this is true or not, but I heard that once they started putting catalytic converters on the cars in 1975, many of them ran better and got better economy than their 1973-74 counterparts. I guess maybe once they started putting converters on, they were able to get rid of a lot of other more rudimentary junk?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Interesting. I had a 1968 Buick Special Deluxe with a Buick 350/2bbl V-8. I recall the car getting very good fuel economy - perhaps as good as 20 MPG. Ninety sixty-eight was quite a few years before engines were clogged-up with all that prehistoric emissions crap. How did the Buick V-8s fare compared to the Olds and Pontiac mills?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    I think Buick engines tended to be designed a bit more for torque than horsepower, so they probably had a lot of low-end grunt and were geared accordingly. Didn't your '68 Special only have a 2-speed automatic, though? I would think that would hurt fuel economy, because they usually stuck a faster axle ratio to help make up for the loss of a gear.

    My '68 Dart would usually get around 13-14 around town, 17 on the highway, and almost 18 if I really went gentle on it. It had been rebuilt though, and hopped up a bit in the process. Still, it was no faster than my '67 Catalina. Kinda sad to think that a compact car with a 318-2bbl would only get about the same highway economy as a full-size with a 400-4bbl!
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Yes, the 4bbl did get better gas mileage. Small primaries, really big secondaries.

    First electronic ignition and cat on Olds was in '75, first computer control '80. I think... May have been '81.

    Wife had a '78 Regal 2dr w/ 231 V6 2bbl. I had a '79 Cutlass 2dr w/ Chev 305 V8 4bbl. Town or highway driving either one I would get 2-3 MPG better mileage.

    And our '84 Cutlass 2dr w/ 307 Olds 4bbl did better than either one. Got about 22mpg on the highway and 16-18 in town. Had tall gears and didn't really get it's legs until running around 80. But the 22mpg was down around 60-65MPH
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If you have quality product, excellent documentation and the *right* options, you can ask the top of the market. Not very many cars we see for sale as "collectibles" meet all those criteria simultaneously. It seems like these cars do...so I may not argue wiht the prices.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    I had a few of those downsized intermediates, too. First was my Mom's '80 Malibu, which she gave to me when I got my license. It had the 229-2bbl, 115 hp. I dunno the torque, but I think it had less torque than the Buick 231. I'd usually get around 15-16 around town, maybe 21-22 on the highway.

    In 1993 I got an '82 Cutlass Supreme coupe, 231-2bbl. 110 hp, 190-ft-lb of torque. I think the Malibu was actually quicker at lower speeds, like 0-50, but the Cutlass seemed a much better highway cruiser, and was better in passing situations. It got around the same economy as the Malibu.

    In 1998, my Mom gave me her '86 Monte. It had a 305-4bbl, 150 hp, ~245 ft-lb of torque. It also got around the same economy, as the other two, but it was a helluva lot faster. It also had the 4-speed automatic, whereas the others only had 3-speeds. It also had 179,000 miles on it when she gave it to me, so I guess it's possible that it got better economy when it was newer.

    Did your '84 Cutlass have the 4-speed or 3-speed automatic? There's an Cutlass in my 1985 Consumer Guide with a 307/3-speed, and it was geared really tall, something like 2.14:1!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yes, my '68 Buick Special Deluxe only had a two-speed tranny. The car still seemed to do well as far as fuel economy. It was something of a plain jane inside, so the car probably was rather light.

    That 1964 Special at Macungie had a 300 V-8. Would've it been mated to the same transmission as in my '68 model? It wouldn't have been the dreaded Slim Jim? How bad is the Slim Jim in reality?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    That 1964 Special at Macungie had a 300 V-8. Would've it been mated to the same transmission as in my '68 model? It wouldn't have been the dreaded Slim Jim? How bad is the Slim Jim in reality?

    I could be wrong, but I think the slim-jim only went in 1961-64 Oldsmobiles, and 1961-64 Pontiac Catalinas and Grand Prixes. Bonnevilles and Star Chief/Executives held onto the older, stronger, but physically larger 4-speed Hydramatic.

    I'm guessing that most intermediate GM cars in '64 were using 2-speed automatics.

    I dunno much about the Slim Jim, but I've always heard that it's best to avoid if at all possible. The older 4-speed Hydramatic won't easily fit as a replacement because it's too big, and would require cutting up the floorpan, but maybe it wouldn't be too hard to swap in a later THM400 or 350?
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    4spd. I think the 3spd was with the V6?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    4spd. I think the 3spd was with the V6?

    That 1984-85 period was kind of an interim period for overdrive transmissions. You could only get the V-6 with the 3-speed, but the V-8 could be had with a 3- or 4-speed automatic. I think for 1986-88 they made the 4-speed mandatory when you ordered the V-8, and at some point (maybe 1986, they did start offering the 4-speed with the V-6.

    On the 3-speed V-8, to compensate for lack of an overdrive gear, they gave it a taller 2.14:1 axle, although I'd imagine that you could order a quicker axle. With the 4-speed V-8, they changed the axle to a 2.41:1, which in overdrive would give you an effective ratio of something crazy like 1.6:1!

    A buddy of mine had an '82 Cutlass Supreme sedan with a 3-speed automatic and the small 260 CID V-8. I dunno what axle ratio it had, but for only having 100-110 hp, that sucker seemed pretty gutsy. I'm guessing it had a pretty good torque curve.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    Almost complete, no engine, rusty, and buckets of parts. Sounds like a great deal. :sick:
    almost complete

    This one looks better:
    complete

    james
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    I'm including this one just to cause Shifty consternation (please forgive me, I can't help myself)

    MG TD?, TC?, TVW?
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    I drove one of these when I was shopping for my first car. I thought it was kind of cool, but fortunately, I bought a BMW 1600 instead. :)

    insane (non)seller
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    I never liked these, but the pictures make it look nicer (and bigger) than it really is.

    Last of the chrome bumpers
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Kit car <GAG!!) :mad:
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