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Comments
I think that seating arrangement in back is kinda neat, opposing, offset jumpseats. Looks like it might actually hold two adults.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1922-Pierce-Arrow-Series-33-Restored_W0QQitemZ300- 147805242QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item300147805242
M30B34s are lazy.. but ever drive a 533i? Man they love to rev! Granted, they have that nice lightweight flywheel.
Forgive me, I have 3 B35s in the shop, a 535i, 735i, 635 (Well, OK.. it's an L Block M90 in there...) etc... I need therapy.
Shifty, arent those considered to be about the best cars built in their time?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Shelby-Cobra-1965-Custom-Built-Mint-Conditon_W0QQ- itemZ270163148825QQihZ017QQcategoryZ6472QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1971-Morris-Minor-Woody_W0QQitemZ330163413784QQih- Z014QQcategoryZ6472QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1923-American-LaFrance-Type-75-Fire-Engine_W0QQit- emZ120159261932QQihZ002QQcategoryZ6472QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290158679795
American LaFrance---don't you just love it when the seller tells you that you are a FOOL to question the opening bid? Sets up SUCH a nice tone for the rest of the auction. Let me clue him in---restored to death it's worth $30,000. So with a welded cylinder head and cracks in the other heads...AND it's a fire engine, not a sports car. Be grateful, man for even a $7,000 bid.
PIERCE ARROW-- not only are they a fine car but I'd wager you guys would be shocked....SHOCKED...at how well it would drive on modern roads.
MORRIS WOODIE -- well it IS right hand drive, so don't pretend like that doesn't matter in the USA---it most surely does affect the pricing here. And a UK imported car requires very close scrutiny. As we know, the UK has the largest and most active Ferrous Oxide mining operations in the world.
SHELBY COBRA --hey.....HEY! You can't call it a "Shelby". It's a kit car...c'mon!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1964-Mercedes-220-SE-One-Owner-Fully-Documented-M- ust-Se_W0QQitemZ140154266121QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140154266121
I didn't know that the Pierce Arrow was such a driveable car even today. It sure looks classy and well-engineered.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Mercedes-Benz-600-LWB-4-door-LOW-miles-W100_- W0QQitemZ190148308231QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190148308231
The W108 most certainly has 118K miles...also appears to be a Euro model, of which low mileage examples are very rare.
The M100 is interesting with its Euro-spec velour, but I can't see why anyone would spend so much on one of those, its cheaper to maintain a castle.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1958-PLYMOUTH-SAVOY-2DR-V8-LOW-MILES-NO-RESERVE_W- 0QQitemZ120156650138QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item120156650138
fintail: I'm sure you're right about the expense of owning that 600...And it might a bit of a challenge to drive around corners.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1976-AMC-Pacer_W0QQitemZ290158427796QQcmdZViewIte- m?hash=item290158427796
Of course, a Mercedes 600 could eat $50,000 for breakfast, so the most expensive one in the world could, ironically, be the cheapest one you'll ever find.
I'd say it's worth $60,000 tops. If someone did pay $100K, they are going to eat it big time for years and years to come.
One thing that always bothered me about that style though...the roof. In 1957, Chrysler went to the same basic body for Plymouth/Dodge/DeSoto/Chrysler divisions. The main way they differentiated them was wheelbase and length, along with sheetmetal, trim, interior, and engine changes.
The upshot of that was that Plymouths ended up being huge inside for the time. In a more modern context, a '57 Plymouth would be a full-sized car, whereas a '57 Chevy or Ford would be midsized. Even the '58 Chevy, a new, much larger design, was still pretty much midsized inside. The downside is that when you take a roof that looks fine on a 218-220" long, 126" wb DeSoto or Chrysler, and suddenly try to make it fit on a 118" wb Plymouth that's at least a foot shorter, it just looks too big on that relatively little car. 2- and 4-door hardtops used a different roofline. that was shorter, and gave the cars a correspondingly longer rear deck. And while that '58 Savoy is a 2-door, the 2- and 4-door sedans shared the same actual roof. Only the location of the B-pillar and the rear quarter windows were altered.
Still, a neat car. Probably only worth about $7950 in tip-top condition though, so personally, I wouldn't go over maybe $1500-2000 for that one. And then just use it as a daily driver. It'd never be worth restoring, except for sentimental reasons.
When I was a kid, we made fun of these things! But now, looking back on them, I think they're kinda cool. I dunno if it was "Wayne's World" that made me appreciate the Pacer more, or just changing tastes in general. Looking back, they are kinda futuristic looking, even today, with that vast expanse of glass area that makes air conditioning mandatory.
They messed up the style a few years later by giving it a more formal, stand-up grille. Some of the upper trim levels could pretty nice inside, with some pretty plush velours with those groovy patterns that they could only have come up with in the 70's.
Pierce was part of of what they used to call "The Three Ps"....Packard, Pierce, and Peerless...and these were considered to be, at the time, the finest American cars made. Only Packard survived the Depression, but lost most of its prestige to Cadillac after World War II.
I had a 1926 Pierce Arrow up to 60 mph one time (with owner's permission....sorta....) and it had more to go. Steering was light, car handled very well, shifting was a good deal easier than I thought it would be. It was miles and miles more sophisticated than a Model A Ford--and the price tag proved it!
On a similar note, Chrysler joined a couple components together on their 1956 models, possibly earlier. I think it was the generator and power steering pump, resulting in a big, bulky, long component.
Is there any real advantage to doing something like that? Less drag on the engine, perhaps? Seems to me it would just make it more expensive to repair when one of those components failed.
See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com
See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com
So, if Shifty and/or anyone else out there is willing to take a look at these pictures and tell me what you think, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks, Ben
As for what's on the bottom of the power booster, that's what I called scale, or "shovel rust" Basically, it's what you get if you leave a shovel or other tool sitting out in the rain for too long. It'll get a scale on it, but generally won't get any worse. At least, not for a long time. However, it might not be a bad idea to take some sandpaper to it, clean it off, and then touch it up with some primer and spraypaint, and then see if it comes back.
I think rust on the brake lines is always a concern but I can't see it close enough...if the lines actually are starting to pit--that is, rust is starting to eat into the smooth surface of the brake line, definitely get those replaced.
The crud on the power brake booster suggests a possible small brake fluid leak at the junction where the master cylinder bolts into the power brake booster. See if there is any moisture there...brake fluid loves to eat paint, so that's what caused that rough spot.
But once the recession lifted and fuel was cheap again, those bigger personal luxury coupes started to sell again, so GM tried to slot these things as luxury compacts, and a bit of a 3-series contender. Although I don't think anybody actually fell for that analogy except for GM marketing!
FWIW, I kinda liked the Calais, too. The Grand Am was good looking from the outside, but by that time Pontiac was learning how to make really junky interiors. The Calais and Somerset/Skylark actually weren't bad inside.
Honestly, I can't remember the last time I saw one, either. I knew a guy from when I was in the Maryland DeSoto club, whose wife had one. It had the Iron Duke 4-cyl mated to a 5-speed!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1959-Triumph-TR3A-California-car-RESTORED-OVERDRI- - VE_W0QQitemZ170147262584QQihZ007QQcategoryZ6469QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZView- - Item
Thanks for looking at the photos of the Olds. One of our local mechanics looked at it for free and said that although you could pour money into it, that it was not a safety issue at this time. Since I think most cars since the late 60s or early 70s have dual diagonal brake lines, I imagine it's ok. It seems like I don't have an excuse to go out and buy a new car right away.
Still, it can happen. My grandma's '85 LeSabre lost its brakes completely one day. The only way to stop it was to downshift and then start applying the parking brake, which is a bit tricky since those foot-operated parking brakes are mainly designed for one panic stop, and to get you totally stopped, versus a handbrake that's easier to modulate. I dunno what exactly failed on the brakes, because that was the final nail in that car's coffin for us, and we decided not to put anymore money into it and just cut it loose.
My '76 LeMans started to lose its brakes last year. Needed a new master cylinder and both rear wheel cylinders. In this case, the failure was slight enough that the brake pedal just slowly went to the floor. Car didn't seem to take any longer to stop, although in a panic stop I'm certain it would have. And once it went to the floor, it would start moving again, so you had to keep pumping.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1987-CADILLAC-ELDORADO-41-000-MILES-ONE-OWNER_W0Q- - QitemZ150156303597QQihZ005QQcategoryZ6147QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Andre: Just when I'd relaxed your story made me a little nervous again. Was there no warning for the loss of braking power? The LeSabre was very close mechanically to the 98, but there were some differences. For instance, I think the rear suspension was a more sophisticated independent design on the 98. I imagine the brake systems were pretty close to identical. We only have a one car garage, and that goes to the 02 Accord (because it's newer, and because the Olds doesn't quite fit), and so the 98 has to suffer through the winters here (and before that in Kansas City--we've owned it since the late spring of 1998). Although in KY winter isn't all that harsh. Still, there a little snow, some salt on the streets, gets to freezing at night for quite a while, etc.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1987-CADILLAC-ELDORADO-37K-1FL-OWNER-A-MUST-SEE-N- O-RES_W0QQitemZ180155697455QQihZ008QQcategoryZ6147QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV- iewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dr-Death-Jack-Kevorkians-White-1989-Cadillac-Devi- lle_W0QQitemZ270161885356QQihZ017QQcategoryZ6146QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVie- wItem
I did finally get it over to my grandmother's house, so it would be in her yard and off the street. I remember having a friend drive my Intrepid and I followed him in the LeSabre. I figured that way if I DID rear-end anything, at least it would be my own car! We just picked a time of day when there wasn't much traffic, I told him to stay at around the speed limit, and don't make any sudden stops unless absolutely necessary!
Honestly, it probably wasn't anything major that was wrong with the car, but I had too many cars at that time. Plus, my Mom was talking about getting rid of her '85 Silverado, and I was interested. I already had a '79 New Yorker and an '89 Gran Fury, so the LeSabre was sort of redundant, whereas a pickup would be a nice, useful change of pace.
That total brake failure did scare me though, because like you, I thought that was something that cars didn't do anymore! I figured it would've been more like what my '76 LeMans did. And now that I think about it, I think my old 1980 Malibu did a similar stunt, but my Granddad was still alive back then and he fixed it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/other-makes-27-hudson-essex-oldschool-hot-rod-rat- -rod_W0QQitemZ150159396248QQihZ005QQcategoryZ6472QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVi- ewItem
Thanks for that story, Andre. Ah yes, I recall now that the Le Sabre only moved to the fwd platform a year later than the 98. I think the 98 went in the 85 model year an the LeS and the 88 went to it in the 86 model year. Anyway, one more question. How often did you have it mechanically checked out? I'm beginning to think every 2 years isn't often enough to get the complete safety check and repair. Maybe we should move to every year. Or every 6 months? I remembered as soon as you guys said it that that is of course the brake system, but clearly I know very little about the mechanical systems in cars, and need to rely on our mechanics to make sure we are not risking our lives in this old 98. What I'm amazed at is that the computer hasn't died yet. Here it is 20 years old (made in the fall of 87, even though it's an 88) and the "computer command control" (or whatever it is that GM called its system at that point) is still the original (I know, because we're the second owners and have all the receipts). When it comes down to it, it does seem like I see some GM cars from the 80s on the streets still, but almost no Fords, Chryslers, Hondas, Toyotas, or anything else for that matter. I wonder why? Was it just that GM made more back then so that of course a few survive? A lot of them seem to be the big cars like I've got. I've seen a lot of Olds 98s from the late 80s just in the last month.
I've never driven one, but I heard those shrunken '86-91 Sevilles, Eldorados, etc, weren't bad handling cars, and with all the weight they lost, performance improved quite a bit. But, like the N-bodies, they were designed for a market of scarce, expensive fuel. I think the N-bodies might have hurt sales of these things, too. At a quick glance, something like a Calais or Somerset Regal doesn't look that different from an Eldo/Toro/Riv, but is about half the price. Plus, I guess personal luxury coupes were on their way out, anyway. Even when a much improved '92 Eldorado came out, and then the '95 Riv, they weren't very strong sellers.
I've always heard that if you get a 4.1, make sure you get one that's been lovingly maintained, low mileage, and has extensive service records. And then make sure you go overboard on cooling system servicing! I hear the later models with the 4.5 are much more reliable, and even better performers.
The controls/switchgear in those 80s Caddys is very amusing.
In May of 2002, I remember taking it to the mechanic. However, this shop had recently changed ownership. The guys that used to be there finally retired after being in business for ages. The two guys who owned the place first met back in the 50's, when they worked at a huge Plymouth/Dodge/DeSoto/Chrysler dealer up the street. That was one reason why I always felt comfortable taking my '57 DeSoto to them...they were very familiar with the car. Anyway, they were honest guys who wouldn't try to oversell you and pad the bill with needless work. Not so the people that took over.
The new guys found about $1200 worth of stuff wrong with that LeSabre, but looking back, it needed a lot. And that also included a ton of maintenance we had slacked off on...belts, hoses, tuneup, coolant flush, tranny service, etc. It also needed more suspension work, front brakes, rotors, and I'm forgetting what else now.
At that time, my uncle, who lives with my grandmother, was about to get transferred in his job, giving him a horrible commute. And since she'd signed the car over to me, both he and I used it on occasion as a spare car. I think we had it up to about 157K miles by then, so we really didn't drive it that much. Well, my uncle expressed an interest in driving that car back and forth to work every day to keep the miles off his '97 Silverado, which was pushing the 100K mark. My grandmother offered to pay to get the LeSabre fixed up.
I had about half the work done...the suspension and brakes, for about $600. It was AMAZING how much better that car handled. I didn't think it was bad to begin with, considering the type of car it was, but with the suspension tightened up it was amazing! Well...the very next weekend, my uncle goes out and buys a brand new '03 Corolla! In retrospect, that was probably a good decision, considering how expensive gasoline got. And he would've run the heck out of that LeSabre. The Corolla now has about 144,000 miles on it, so if he'd used the LeSabre, it would be around 300K by now, presuming it was still running.
After he bought that car, the LeSabre just kind of sat around. Then, soon after, my Mom started talking about getting a new truck and letting me have her old one. I figured I'd hang onto the LeSabre until the next emissions test came up, and if it didn't pass, see how much it would cost to make it pass, and use that as the final determination. The emissions test would've been January 2003, but it was maybe August of '02 when the brakes went out, so that ended it.
Considering that the majority of my driving is done these days with a 1985 Silverado and a pair of 1979 New Yorkers, I probably should get a general safety check done regularly. I'd imagine that once per year is probably sufficient. What I've been doing lately when I go to the mechanic (different mechanic...found one that one of my grandmother's friends has been using for ages, and they're pretty cool) for something I know the car needs, I just ask them to look over it and see if anything looks scary or dangerous.
Probably because they haven't fabricated the top for it yet! :surprise: Basically, what they've done to that car is a slightly cleaner version of what Sheriff Buford T. Justice did to his LeMans cruiser in "Smokey and the Bandit".
I always associated just chopping the top off of a car as something you do when the car is so junky it's worthless, so it's a way to make a poor man's convertible and get a bit of fun out of it before you finally junk it. I had actually thought about doing that to my '80 Malibu coupe, but I'm glad I just sold the thing instead and got money for it, as opposed to making a mess and ultimately having to have it hauled away to the junkyard!
A guy in one of my Mopar clubs told me that back in the day, he and his buddies used to like to take old '71-76 full-sized GM 4-door hardtops and chop the roof off. They'd be fun for awhile...until somebody opened a door and then couldn't get it closed again because the car was sagging.
yeah, the Ciera did have a dash something like that, where the dash itself sloped down, but the part with the gauges seemed attached on as a separate piece. I think the downsized 88/98 models were kind of like that, too?
I notice that, too, in the DC area. Part of it probably IS because GM had a HUGE chunk of the market back then. In 1985, 7 of the top 10 selling cars were GM. Now, this doesn't include trucks, minivans, SUVs, just cars. They were, in no particular order...Cavalier, Celebrity, Caprice/Impala (counted together by that time), Century, Cutlass Ciera, Cutlass Supreme, Delta 88. Ford had the Escort and Tempo, and the lone Japanese car in the top ten was the Nissan Sentra. Japanese cars WERE popular on the coasts, especially in more urban areas, but they still had plenty of inroads to make.
The really durable, simple, long-lived Fords, like the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis, really weren't big sellers by then, maybe 125-150K units apiece. The popular stuff like the Escort and Tempo really weren't that reliable, and since they were cheap cars, tended to get discarded pretty quickly. With the RWD Fox cars, you'd think they'd be more reliable, but a lot of them had that unreliable 232 "Essex" V-6, that tended to grenade around 90-100,000 miles. V-8's were almost non-existent in the small LTD/Marquis, except for the 1984-85 LTD LX. They were more common in the T-bird/Cougar though, but again, these weren't huge sellers, maybe another 125-150K units apiece. Now the 1986 Taurus/Sable was a smash hit, but the early models were also very unreliable. Plenty of transmission problems, problems with the 3.8 V-6 option, and I've also heard they tend to rust.
At Chrysler, the only thing really long-lived and durable by that time was the M-body (Gran Fury/Diplomat/5th Ave). Most Gran Furys and Diplomats were pressed into taxi/police duty, and saw very little civilian service. The 5th Ave was popular though. But just about everything else they made back then was based on the K-car, and it was mostly just a cheap throwaway car. The more expensive versions, especially from around 1989 onward, had the unreliable "Ultradrive" 4-speed automatic which, well, turned them into an expensive-to-fix throwaway car!
Japanese cars back then tended to rust, and while reliable in a Consumer Reports sort of sense, they were often not the type of car that could take a pounding like a cheap, simple, beefy domestic. That took most of them off the road, and if you're out in the Heartland, well they just didn't sell that many out there to begin with.
Those downsized C/H bodies were very troublesome in their first few years. The 4-speed overdrive automatic was one particular area, but I think it got to the point that when they do fail, they're not all that expensive to rebuild. And by around 1988, they got it to be pretty reliable. And the 3.8 V-6 got a new block for 1985, which almost overnight changed it from one of GM's worst engines to one of its most durable.
GM did put out a lot of crap in the 80's, but it also put out a lot of cars that, while they'd nickel and dime you to death, could also go a long, long time before anything truly catastrophic failed on them.
"Anything else, and a little rust is no worry, but on the brake lines and master cylinder?"
Well, texases, what you wrote strikes a chord with me. The thing is, I feel we've hung in there long enough with this car. We've had it about 9 and a half years. We bought it from the first owner with 68k miles, and it's now at almost 130,000. We've spent something like $9000 over almost a decade on maintenance and repairs. I won't bore you with the list, but it's long. And yet as far as I can tell right now glancing over the pile of receipts, we haven't replaced the brake master cylinder. If we do that, what's next? The computer? The transmission? Something else? I think it may be time to say farewell to this car. The radio doesn't even work (we have a little portable radio with batteries to listen to npr on the way to work and school.) If we were poor and had no choice right now, I'd probably fix it. Or try to do what my wife said a few minutes ago: "Maybe we can just pay really close attention to the brake fluid level." (And, in fact, it does have a reservoir--as you can probably see in one of the pictures--where you can see the level.)
But, it happens that right now we've got some money in the bank. And when it comes to safety I try not to be cheap.
Anyway, it's the title of this thread, but now I put it to anyone out there who is willing to put in their 2 cents: Should we hold onto the 1988 Olds 98, or fold it and put it out to pasture. What do you think?
The body has no rust, the cloth seats are still quite luxurious and comfortable (and have no rips), the engine is powerful and strong (and gets 18-20 mpg in the city), the transmission shifts smoothly, and it has impressive interior room and good trunk space. It's got 2 new and 2 nearly new Goodyear radials, and a recent battery.
But....it's a 20 year old car. And we've got the money at this point to buy an 08 Accord, or maybe a Prius (what did they say on that show, Shifty, that made fun of them and their owners?).
I'm thinking of special ordering an 08 Accord EX-L with a 5-speed manual and the navi. But is it wise to get the first few months of an all-new design, even if it's a Honda? And maybe I should just get cloth seats and the LX and save about 7k.
But, first things first: is it time to retire the 98, or should we fix the brakes? Or, do you think from what you know that the brakes need to be fixed (the pads are fine, that's clear, it's just the master cylinder and maybe the lines that need work)?
(And thanks Andre for your story of the LeSabre. Looking at it, I think it was time to say so long to that car. He made a good choice to get the Corolla.)
In three words or less, how good a 'classic' is a 1980 TR7?
Mileage unknown, color orange, supposedly good shape, and asking price of $5,400 -- presumably the sum total of what he's got in it, and $1,000 added.
Isn't that the car with the ad that said "it runs better than it looks"?
Thanks in advance,
-Mathias
I think a lot of it just depends on whether you're tired of the car or not. I think if I had that car and liked it, I'd invest the money to get the brakes and master cylinder checked out and fixed if necessary. I can be emotional sometimes when it comes to cars, though. If it's a car I don't really have an attachment to, anyway, or if there's something else out there I want more, I'll find an excuse to get rid of the car! But if it's something I'm attached to, that I like for whatever irrational, twisted reason, I'd easily put more money than the car is worth into it to keep it running.
But playing devil's advocate, I have to admit I kinda like the '08 Accord! One rough rule of thumb I'll use is that if I put $300 into a car, I want to see it go at least another month. Now that's really just an arbitrary number...when I was making payments on my Intrepid it was $347 per month, and I figure any halfway decent new car is going to be at least $300, unless I put a big down payment on it. So I figure if I put in $300 and the car goes a month, I'm even. Of course, if it's breaking down every month and leaving me stranded, there's the aggravation factor.
I've been lucky in that I haven't really been stranded lately. I recently picked up a '79 New Yorker, back in May, and it did leave me stranded at work three times. First time it finally did start. Second time, I gave up and walked most of the way home, but my roommate intercepted me after I'd walked maybe 2 miles. My job is only 3.5 miles away. After the second time, it went to the mechanic to get the choke worked on, but lately it's been doing it again.
I've found that if I park under this big oak tree at work, the car starts up fine in the afternoon when I leave work. I just pump it slow 1 time, then depress about half way, and it fires right up. But if I put it out in the parking lot, where the sun beats down on it, it won't start. Always starts in the morning, though.
It left me stranded at work again on Tuesday night. When I chose to park out in the lot, exposed, instead of under that tree. Fired up the next morning though. Today I started it up and parked it under a tree in my yard, and went out a few times to start it. Fired right up, every time. Maybe it's allergic to sunlight. :confuse: Guess it's time to take it back to the mechanic.