Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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Comments

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,798
    i really hate when folks say it just needs a battery. put a charger on the damned thing. jump it. something. anything. i mean, seriously, if the difference between selling a nonrunner and a runner is going to take 10-15 minutes and less than $100, why wouldn't you just do it? I'll tell you why, because they are full of it!

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,156
    Here's a good restoration history - how does yours compare to the pictures of this one?
    MGC restoration
    image
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    Youch! Is that '69 going to be worth all that effort?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,156
    The guy gave up on the one I posted after 3 1/2 yrs.
  • fortee9erfortee9er Member Posts: 134
    Amazing, it could be its twin brother! Actually it is the same color the exterior looks in better shape but hard to tell from pictures. These cars are like artichokes that you have to peel back to find the hidden damage.
    I agree with the other poster why would the seller not attempt to get it running if it was such an easy thing.
    On the other hand I have bought many dead cars and it didn't take much to get then running again. Getting them road worthy was a diferent matter.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,798
    some of those are really sharp. I especially like the '67 and '73 coupes.
    I seriously doubt a standard VW engine from that timeframe makes it into much of a sportscar, though. I mean, I would hope folks weren't using 40 hp beetle engines, but ya never know, right?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,156
    My uncle flew B-17s escorting P-38s

    Great stories - what they went through!
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,103
    Don't ask me why (maybe it's the IceHouse talking :P ) but I actually kinda like that '79 Datsun B210. Maybe because it's in an attractive color. That blue is a nice change from those nasty oranges and yellows that seemed so common on economy cars back then. Heck, maybe I should buy it to tow behind my '79 New Yorker, so I wouldn't be left stranded when the thing refuses to start! :sick:

    Speaking of refusing to start, is it possible to flood a car that's been sitting for about 8-10 hours in the hot sun, simply by pumping the pedal 1 1/2 times? I drove my "new" New Yorker around a lot today, even taking a risk by going to the grocery store and doing my shopping, and it started fine every time, with just a turn of the key and no pumping...except for the first start of the morning.

    This New Yorker has refused to start about 3 or 4 times now, always on warm, sunny afternoons and evenings. Fires up fine every morning though, when it's still cool. I'm wondering it it's just so sensitive that the slightest pumping can flood it? Normally if my '85 Silverado has been sitting at work all day, it'll still fire right up if I just depress the pedal about half way and turn the key. Stuff like my '76 LeMans, '67 Catalina, or my "old" '79 New Yorker would usually take a few pumps to get them to fire up.
  • ryan77300dryan77300d Member Posts: 64
    I have the oppertunity to buy an early 80's BMW 325, an E30 I believe. I know the seller, and he's asking $800, but I could probably talk a little lower.

    The car is in alright shape, it's driveable, and has rust in the rockers (but not huge structural issues) and the paint is pretty much past it's prime. They're in the middle of installing a new fuel pump.

    I was thinking about selling my 300D, as it's in pretty mint condition now, and getting this to use as a daily driver. (Stick and fast-ER being the main motives) Along with my passion for 70's-80's Euro cars.

    Has anyone had experience with these cars? Pros, Cons? Advice?

    Thanks in advance
  • ryan77300dryan77300d Member Posts: 64
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I thought the pumping thing was only necessary on stone cold engines to give the automatic choke a little extra help?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,103
    I thought the pumping thing was only necessary on stone cold engines to give the automatic choke a little extra help?

    Yeah, I think in theory that's how they were supposed to work...when they were new and working properly, at least! And of the carbureted vehicles I have, it seems that only my '85 Silverado works more or less like it was supposed to. I'll have to pump it a few times if it's been sitting overnight, especially when it's been cool. But if I come in to work at 7:30 AM, and don't leave until 4, and don't go out to lunch or anything, all I have to do is depress the pedal about half way, and it'll fire right up. If I just turn the key without depressing the pedal at all, it seems to catch for a split second, but then dies.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,798
    An E30 325 is extremely reliable. Just make sure the timing belt has been done in the past 60k miles, or you gotta do it immediately. With regular maintenance, those engines regularly go over 200k miles without major problems.

    of course, the questions for this car are, how many miles? stick or auto? and you gotta check the aforementioned mainteanance history.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "aluminum allow wheels"

    Does this mean "alloy"? If so, those pictures show that the allow was nickel and iron (= steel).
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Decent price on the 109. Depending on what extra kit he has for it I can see it going for around that price. RHD doesn't seem to hurt those cars as much as others.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    Great old beater Toyota PU. Love the mustard yellow. Perfect for that occasional trip to Home Depot or the county landfill. Park it on your driveway and annoy the neighbors! :P

    james
  • ryan77300dryan77300d Member Posts: 64
    The 325's got a little less than 200,000 miles on it, and it's a stick car (Extreme fun factor...compared to the Benz)

    I'll do the timing belt Asap.
  • danf5danf5 Member Posts: 38
    Andre wrote (about the Corvair Turbo Corsa): "According to Wikipedia, it looks like the Corvair's hp peaked at 180. So by net hp standards, figure maybe 130-135? Still, I guess that light weight, coupled with a 4-speed, would make for a pretty quick car?"

    I bought a '66 Turbo Corsa convertible in 1971 shortly after I got out of the army. A mistake.

    Yes, it was a quick car for the time when the turbo came on, but it was a monument to all that was wrong with GM at the time. And it had wonderful roadholding. But it was a monument to all that was wrong with GM back then. I just hope that GM has improved since them.

    Problems? Shortly after I got it, a valve seat insert popped out of the head. While putting it all together, the shop dropped a nut through the turbo. So much for the turbo, even after I had it rebuilt elsewhere. The first problem was GM's fault, the second wasn't. I later lost another valve seat insert.

    Problems? The Turbo Corsa used the same pushrod seals as the regular car. Since the TC's heads, specific to the model, ran hotter, seals lasted about 3 months. Then it was remove the rockers (on ball studs, very American) that held down the plate that retained the pushrod tubes, pull the tubes, replace the seals, reassemble. So where's the problem? Well, the rocker arms were attached to the head bolts. After a number of seal replacements, the head bolts, which screwed directly into the cases -- no helicoils, too expensive -- came loose. And then we had bad problems.

    Problems? The exhaust manifold was a log that was clamped on to exhaust stubs pressed into the head. So where's the problem? Well, after a while what with differential expansion and all the stubs came loose in the head. And then exhaust fumes leaked into the inside of the fan shroud, whence the heater drew how air. Asphyxiation, courtesy of penny-pinchers at GM.

    Other problems? If it was run to red line regularly OEM fan belts lasted 5,000 miles +/- 20. It ate alternators. The cars rusted. Fast.

    Handling? The nicest version of the 65 and later Corvairs was, IMO, Don Yenko's Stinger. On slow courses, e.g., Mid-Ohio, a well-driven Stinger would just run away from a well-driven 2 liter 911. On faster courses, the Corvair's aerodynamics (think barn door) were a problem. I once asked Yenko what he did to prep the chassis for racing. "Put on Koni shocks and semi-metallic linings." He insisted that the stock springs and bushings were sufficient.

    Overall, great idea, horrible execution. I hope that isn't GM today.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,156
    Boy, two examples in one day of the 'GM curse' - there was a Fiero on the mystery car discussion. Someone now needs to post a Vega pic, and we'd have the big 3! Advanced technology + inadequate development = disaster :sick:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...has a 1966 VW Karmann Ghia with a Corvair Monza powertrain. It looks like the engine might be a little heavy for the car as the rear wheels look slightly tilted outward at the bottom.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I think that is deliberate, to mitigate the evils of the swing-axle suspension.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    I owned an '84 SE with the 4spd. Kept it several years. I had none of the problems that have been bantered about on bulletin boards with regard to engine fires, electrical problems, etc. The only problems I had with that car were brought about by idiot dealerships who were clueless about the vehicle. After all, the entire drive train was right out of a GM X-car. My only complaints about the '84 were that it was underpowered (92net) and it rode rough.

    I have had people tell me they heard the handling was bad. All I know is I took a factory stock SE to an autocross and absolutely spanked most of the cars in my class, including some that were modified. It was especially fun to show up the Mustangs.

    :shades:
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,798

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,798

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,798

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,798

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,103
    I remember when I was in 9th grade (1984-85) Fieros were all the rage among us kids...we just thought they were the coolest thing. I remember standing at the bus stop, every day this hot looking woman in a red Fiero would drive by and wave at me, giving me a seductive look. At least, in my 14 year old mind, she wanted me! :P

    Then, one morning as she was going by, she slowed, pulled onto the shoulder across the street, and stopped. She was getting out of her car and coming towards me! It seemed too good to be true. And it was. It turns out she stopped because the car chose that particular spot to break down. And she always waved at me because it turns out she was one of the secretaries at my school, and recognized me. She was hoping that she could get a ride into school when my bus came along!

    Oh well, if nothing else, at least everybody on the bus saw me sitting with that hot older woman, who must've been around 19!

    I've never driven or ridden in a Fiero, but I've heard that they have a heavy, bulky feel to them, and steering feedback isn't the greatest. But it's possible for a car to have poor steering feedback and a heavy feel to it, yet still be a good performer. It just means the driver has to adjust to the car.

    I wonder if the situation was really just that the car looked too good for what it really was, and that just gave people too high of an expectation? I mean, if it looked like a Citation and still handled and performed like a Fiero, maybe people would be saying "WOW, GM finally figured out how to build a good-handling compact". But instead, they make something that looks downright exotic (at least, at the time it sure seemed to be), but the handling and performance just couldn't live up to those looks?

    IIRC, the Fiero was originally intended to just be a sporty little 2-seater commuter car that got good fuel economy and came in at low price. It was supposed to be a car that would introduce a little flair and flash to commuter cars, but maybe they went too far and made it too sporty looking, and the underpinnings just couldn't live up to the expectation. At least, not until GM started improving the car.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    GM didn't get the Fiero right until 1988 and they pulled the plug on it! The idea is to get it right the first time, dummies! As I recall, the Toyota MR2 came out about the same time the Fiero debuted. I have a feeling GM rushed the Fiero into production to beat the debut of the MR2.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,156
    The idea is to get it right the first time, dummies!

    GM, home of the half-baked idea :sick:
    Ford, on the other hand, comes out with some great ideas (Mustang, T-Bird, Taurus, Focus, Lincoln LS and Town Car), then either kills them with botched follow-up models or leaves them to die with inattention. :mad:
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    GM has a history of bringing out a car with great potential and but poor execution. They struggle for four or five years finally get the car RIGHT and then kill it.

    The Caprice based Impala SS was a good example of that. The GMC Typhoon and Cyclone were another good examples. They had wicked fast SUV/Trucks out before anyone else had even though of it and then killed them after a couple of years.

    GNX is another great example.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Ford, on the other hand, comes out with some great ideas (Mustang, T-Bird, Taurus, Focus, Lincoln LS and Town Car), then either kills them with botched follow-up models or leaves them to die with inattention.

    My wife and I bought a new 2007 3.0-liter V6 AWD SEL Fusion on Dec. 4, 2006. Great car so far, another "better idea" from FoMoCo. Still, I have this deep-seated fear that Ford will forget about the Fusion like it did with the Taurus (nee Five Hundred).

    We plan on keeping our Fusion for at least seven years. Will the nameplate still be around? Will the Fusion still be competitive in the mid-size sedan segment in 2014? Of course we hope so but you never know about what direction Ford is going to go.

    I envision a time in the not-too-distant future when the Mercury will go the way of Plymouth and Oldsmobile. That was one factor when deciding to go with the Fusion instead of the Milan.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,156
    I envision a time in the not-too-distant future when the Mercury will go the way of Plymouth and Oldsmobile

    I imagine you're right, that'll turn them into a 'Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura' kind of organization...we can hope!

    I hope they'll spend the $$ to keep the Fusion competitive with Camry/Accord/Altima/(new Malibu?)
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Yes, the Fiero was supposed to be a little commuter car, but it was also a technology experiment by GM. The concept of a complete space frame/roll cage with a plastic and carbon fiber body was first used on the Fiero, and later on the "dustbuster" vans, Siloeutte, Lumina APV, Transport. The entire chassis design was all new but used off the shelf parts from the divisions for the suspension and drive train.

    In 1988, the entire suspension system was redesigned to a much higher level of performance. An '88 GT in good condition will go for a far higher price than any other year.

    For 1989, Pontiac had worked out a deal with Oldsmobile to put a high output (185HP) version of the Quad-4 engine in the Fiero GT. What wasn't as widely known was that Olds also had two variations of the engine, one supercharged and the other turbocharged, that had both met the EPA requirements, made good gas mileage, and developed around 250HP in street legal trim. The normally aspirated version was built in a pilot series run and actually saw some track time at small, public events. Eyewitness accounts from a manufacturers "run what you brung" at Watkins Glenn (I believe that was the track) were that the little Fiero was giving the '89 Vette fits on the track. With the Quad-4 engine, the Fiero had a perfect 50-50 balance and with the new suspension tweaked for 1989 would stick to the track far better than anything else GM had to offer.

    One of the theories to the Fiero demise was that the GM accountants were looking at two sports cars, the Corvette and the Fiero. One the one hand, they had the legendary American sports car with a cult following and a high price tag (i.e.: exclusivity). On the other hand, they had a relative newcomer which had not sold as well as expected, could keep up with the Vette in performance, at a relatively low cost. Also at issue was the fact that the Fiero in this new high perfomance configuration already had the insurance companies drooling over what the premiums would bring for such a car with a target audience with enough money to buy. The cost of the Vette had kept it out of the hands of young drivers for the most part.

    So, at the end of the day, the bean counters won out, killed the program, and left the Vette to represent GM as the one true American Sports Car.

    And now you know the rest of the story ...

    :)
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Thanks Paul...
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    can be found on Wikpedia. In fact, I was surprised to find that they published a lot of data that had been kept rather quiet.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    :confuse:

    The 3000GT was always FWD-based. The '80s Starion was RWD, though.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,798
    hmmm... you may be right. Here I thought a supposed competitor to the other Japanese supercars of the time was RWD, not to mention competing on the showroom floor with the FWD Eclipse, I assumed it was RWD. The original Mitsu GTO was RWD, too. But according to Edmunds, the base and SL models were FWD. What the heck were they thinking??

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    was in a different echelon than the Eclipse: bigger, V6 standard, etc.

    Mitsubishi was probably thinking the same thing everyone else was in the late '80s: RWD was out of date and FWD was the future. This was the same era that saw Ford prepare a FWD Mustang and GM start on a FWD Camaro.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    A buddy of mine had a 3000GT VR-4 with all the options.

    It was FWD based but AWD was standard when you went up to the turbo model. He also had All Wheel Steering on his. It was pretty quick but a very heavy car. Curb weight was over 4,000 lbs so even with 320 hp it was particular quick or nimble. More of a AWD GT car. Set the cruise control to 140 and just let the car eat up the miles.

    Remember the eclipse at the time was still only a 4 cylinder or 4 cylinder turbo. They didn't make a v6 version of it yet.

    There was also a hardtop convertible option.

    image
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,156
    I forgot about that hardtop convertible - was it the first of the modern ones?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Interesting background info, thanks for posting it.

    I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories as you know, and really I think the Fiero failed because nobody bought it when it was introduced (well hardly enough to justify its existence), and by the time GM woke up and got the car squared away, American buyers had already moved onto foreign sports coupes that were so much better.

    GM seems to have this ability to make a small car feel like a school bus when you drive it. The HHR is the same way as the Fiero.

    As for autocross, your wheelbase is a big advantage over a longer WB car that has better suspension and more power than you. This is probably why Porsche 914s are so deadly in autocross as well--another slug of a car but handles great in the tight stuff.

    I liked the V-6, 5-speed Fiero. If that car had been the first Fiero, and IF they had squared away all the mechanical issues, it might be with us today as America's 350Z or Audi TT or some such.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Most MGCs you'll see are automatics for some bizarre reason. I think BMC tried to market them as touring cars, not sports cars per se.

    There is a small group of experts who think MGCs are worth the same as Austin Healey 3000s. Unfortunately, these experts are all MGC owners. The rest of us think they are worth less than a nice MGB.

    So what would a rusted MGB automatic worth (no such thing but if there was one)?
    \
    Not much.

    An MGC is not just a bigger MGB. It shared some parts but also has a lot of unique parts to it, including engine, front end, some sheet metal.

    So not only is it a more expensive restoration than an MGB, it is more difficult, and with the auto transmission, it will have a smaller payoff.

    Why bother?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,103
    I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories as you know, and really I think the Fiero failed because nobody bought it when it was introduced (well hardly enough to justify its existence), and by the time GM woke up and got the car squared away, American buyers had already moved onto foreign sports coupes that were so much better.

    Actually, the Fiero was pretty popular for its first year or two, and was considered the cornerstone for Pontiac's rebirth. It wasn't widely publicized at the time, but GM was thinking about dropping Pontiac as early as 1981. Part of the problem was that GM made most of its profits from bigger cars, and with the exception of the Grand Prix from '76-79 and maybe the '77-79 Bonneville, big Pontiacs just never did sell well after the first oil embargo.

    Pontiac saw sales wither from around 700K in 1980, not a very good year itself, to 500K in 1981, then down to around 300K in 1982 and 1983. New products such as the 1982 Firebird and 6000 and J2000/Sunbird just weren't pulling in the customers. The Fiero helped create a lot of buzz for Pontiac, and get customers into the showroom. The economy itself was greatly improved for 1984, which no doubt helped, but I believe Pontiac sales shot back up to around 700K for 1984, rising like a Phoenix from the ashes (even if 1984 would be the last year FOR the Phoenix!)

    The problem with the Fiero is that the early model, which wasn't that great of a performer, was the one that was popular, and within a couple years the car had a bad rap, so when it really did improve, nobody was interested.

    I'd also imagine that if Pontiac made the Fiero TOO good, such as with those hopped-up Quad 4 proposals, it would've put a lot of pressure on the Camaro and Firebird/Trans Am.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well we are basically saying the same thing. People bought the car at first, and within a year or two the word was out that the car basically sucked. GM did little to correct the problems, but finally got around to it, by which time the public had given up on the car.

    Does this sound like a familiar GM story? I thought so.

    But no company kills a great product because it's "too good". That, to me, is just conspiracy theory 101 and it doesn't fly with me at all. If it were true, it would be time for GM to retire the Corvette as soon as possible as it makes the XLR look bad. Don't see that happening.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,103
    Well we are basically saying the same thing. People bought the car at first, and within a year or two the word was out that the car basically sucked. GM did little to correct the problems, but finally got around to it, by which time the public had given up on the car.

    Okay, gotcha...it's just that when I read your comment, it sounded to me like the car was a sales flop right out the starting gate.

    I dunno about killing a car because it's "too good", but I'm sure that GM would dump a model in a heartbeat it if started stealing the thunder from a more profitable, famous nameplate.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I doubt it. Success is so rare to GM they would treasure it. I can't think of any plausible provable argument that GM has ever done this. They drop cars because nobody wants them. There is little thunder to steal in GMs lineup anyway, except the Corvette. They should be so lucky to have this problem. ;)
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