Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

Quite frankly I don't think old Benz diesels are really suitable for modern driving conditions. But if you stay in the right lane and wear a Tibetan wool hat and turn up the radio and proudly wear your biodiesel bumper sticker, what's the harm? I drove one for almost two years and I must say it mellowed me out. It had about 275K on it, and someone had put on a new cylinder head, new AC system and new Bilstein shocks. That musta cost them $3000 bucks easy. It ran quite reliably and I think (flip flip)....yeah, my records show that it cost me $83 a month in repairs for those 2 years. (this doesn't include maintenance items, just repairs)

Not bad really.

hpmctorque

No, it's certainly not bad. In fact, it's darn good. I'd say the low operating cost you cited is in large part due to your intimate knowledge of old Benzes, including, but not limited to, which ones to buy and which ones to avoid, plus when to bail out. These cars undoubtedly have a certain charisma that's virtually impossible to assign a dollar figure to, but after reading hundreds of the messages in this discussion, I'd only buy one on a dare. I still stare at them and admire them, though, and fantasize about buying one in #2 condition.

bumpy

buy a late '90s-early '00 Acura TL

Buy a manual late '90s-early '00 Acura TL, unless you're feeling lucky enough to take your chances with the J-series automatic.

Mr_Shiftright

My taste in old Benzes is peculiar. I like the 6.3 sedan, the 300SL Roadster (rather than the Gullwing), the 70-71 220 gas sedan (of all things) the 500SL, the 300SD and the 560SEC coupe. Oh, the 280SL with the 5-speed is okay, too.

hpmctorque

Yeah, I like those a lot too, but I especially like the W123s ('76 or '77-'84 300Ds and 300TDs), and the '86-'95 300E, especially the earlier ones without the lower body cladding. In addition, and I know they're problematic and unreliable, I like the '84-'93 190s. I guess the 2.6 is better (or is "not as bad" more appropriate?) than the 2.3, maybe in part because it was introduced later than the 4 cylinder version. In any event, I think Mercedes really got the styling right on the W123, 300E, and 190s. They had a premium look to them.

fintail

I'm surprised to see a couple of money pits on your list.

guss

A friend just bought an '83 300D off of E-bay a few months ago. It is baby blue with 225k miles. I think he paid $3500 plus shipping. e had to search the county to find one with a manual transmission.

It in very nice shape, but I don't see the attraction, it's like a couch on wheels. But, I think he got the Corvette thing out of his system over the past 20 years and just wanted to try hyper-mileing.

I'm with shifty, give me a VW TDI.

Mr_Shiftright

Well he's going to be disappointed if he's into hyper-miling, unless he believed all those nonsense claims from sellers. If you get 25 mpg on those things you're lucky. I suppose driving 40 mph on the flats might get you a bit more, but really, the cars are aero-bricks and very heavy, so let's get real here.

guss

I guess it is all relative, his other car is a Jeep Grand Cherokee with a V-8 that gets about 13 mpg. So the 24 he is getting now is a huge difference.

Those old diesels are loud though, a TDI is much more refined.

oregonboy

Re: the RX-7

puts out a cloud of white smoke when you first start it up but then it runs great!

Not for long. The white smoke is water vapor, a sure sign of seal failure. That engine is toast.

james

hpmctorque

"I'm with shifty, give me a VW TDI."

What year(s) and model(s) VW TDi are we talking about here. I assume it's ~-00 or newer.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, a 2000 TDI would cost less than paying that ridiculous $10000 for an old beater Benz diesel and you'd get 2X the mileage and...probably the same number of hassles---LOL!

qbrozen

to avoid searching the forums and reading through all the propaganda, I figure I'll ask the experts here. Just what is wrong with used late-model audis? Say '98+. Is it major reliability problems? or niggling electrical issues? something to avoid at all costs? or a vehicle that might be good for someone who works on their own cars?

I'm just curious because while looking over mid-sized wagons that maybe we'll purchase in the future, I spotted a '98 A6 Avant with less than 100k miles for $4900. My search for the "right size" according to my wife tells me that the A6, V70, 300E/E320, and 5-series are all right about the same size in the back seat.

hpmctorque

How about fun to drive (Benz vs. VW TDi)? Are they close, since RWD/FWD may not be too big an issue for this type of car, or is the Benz considerably more satisfying on the highway? I'm assuming that around town, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

texases

Is it major reliability problems? or niggling electrical issues? something to avoid at all costs? or a vehicle that might be good for someone who works on their own cars?

Audis have the unfortunate, but well deserved, reputation as troublesome. There are certainly trouble-free ones out there, but the odds are much worse for Audi than the (boring, poorly-styled) Japanese. They share a lot of parts with VW, and VW has also had major reliability issues over the last decade. Consumer Reports has the '98-'04 as worse to much worse than average on reliability. Just as an example example here's a problem with control arms control arm Q/A Not a normal do-it-yourself item. That said, they're great designs, and when the run right, some of the best cars out there.

Edit - these are comments related to the age Audi you're considering - the last year or two has seen an improvement.

texases

I've not heard a Benz diesel referred to as fun-to-drive, while the VW TDIs often get called that. And around town, I think the power:weight of the TDI would be a big plus.

Mr_Shiftright

Pretty good chance that a used Avant will disappoint you. I would tend to avoid any used Audi without exception. Parts are expensive and not too many places really understand them or want to work on them. You'd probably regret buying one. Even with my friend owning an Audi repair shop, I'd hesitate myself.

hpmctorque

Audi repair shop. Now there's a great business!

Mr_Shiftright

He does very well, but he pairs with Porsche repair. He even tells me not to buy an Audi--LOL!

But Audis are great cars, just troublesome. Also cheap to buy used, for obvious reasons. Buyers are shy of them.

british_rover

The biggest problem is that unlike MB and BMW Audi does not support out of production platforms/models. Once the car goes out of production the parts prices skyrocket. A 98 A6 avant is at least two generations old and so parts will be very expensive.

My wife had an Audi in college and the expansion tank got a crack in it and started leaking. At the time it was about three generations older then the current model Audis. I called to get a jobber price for the expansion tank and the parts guy tells me 995 dollars. :surprise:

I was like uhhh thats not a wholesale price I am calling from XXXXXXX I need it for a repair.

Parts guy says that is the wholesale price full retail on that part is 1,285.

I ended up using high temp epoxy to repair the crack.

Mr_Shiftright

Headlight assembly on an S4 is $1000 (each side).

oregonboy

I hate to sound like an old codger, but remember the "good old days" of sealed halogen headlights?



james

british_rover

O-U-C-H

I am sure the BI-Xenon Adaptive headlight assemblies for a Range Rover are at least that much though.

qbrozen

Interesting. I mean, I test drove an A6 once. It didn't thrill me, but I found it nice enough.

I guess we will be sticking to the used V70 plan for now and see what happens in the next 10 months before her lease is up. At least I know what I'm dealing with on the volvo and we know we both enjoy driving one. Only problem is that nice ones get pretty good money after those first few years of depreciation.

qbrozen

see? I just shouldn't look, because then I find something like THIS!

call me goofy, if you want. But it is the same year, engine, and color as the S70 I had. This, of course, has the added utility and far fewer miles than when I sold mine (115k). I'm pretty sure it is overpriced, but if really clean and well cared for, I wouldn't be adverse to paying that kind of money for it.

oregonboy

Yeah, I have always liked wagons. I don't know that much about Volvos, which models and years are reliable and which to avoid, but that one sure looks sweet. I can't drive an automatic though. :shades:

Here's a T5 with a 5-spd, but (sadly) it's a sedan. :sick:
"arrest me red"

james

qbrozen

I'll tell ya what, though, you really should drive both stick and auto in this car. I THOUGHT I wanted a stick and I searched high and low (I was looking for the perfect '98 T5 for about 5 months before I purchased mine back in '01). I did find a T5 wagon with a stick. I discovered that the stick on this car really sucks. Gotta be one of the worst (modern) manuals I've ever driven. It did not let me have complete control over the clutch. To an extent, it decides how fast to let it out, not matter what you do with your foot. Kind of like manual shifting for dummies.

So I tried the auto for the hell of it and really really liked it. Found it to be one of the best autos I've ever driven (up to that point). I think the selectable economy, winter, sport modes really helps. In sport mode it was very responsive and almost intuitive at times. So that was my choice. I definitely never regretted it with that particular car.

By the way, '98 is the best year. It was lighter than the '99s (although I have no idea why) and avoids the extra electrical problems of the '00 and up (MAF sensors were a common problem ... i think it went to drive-by-wire or something, i forget the details).

oregonboy

Very interesting... and strange, an automated clutch with a mind of its own. :confuse: Thanks for the warning, I couldn't live with that.

james

fintail

This could be reclaimable

stickguy

hey, I have to go to Parlin this Saturday for a marching band competition. I like that wagon too, but I'm not really into bright red.

i agree about the clutch/shifter in the S70. I was disappointed when I tried it, and I think the issues carried over to the S60 I tried (new). Just a weird clutch feel and action, and the shifter was a bit clunky.

They did have a nice AT though, especially on the turbo and with the manumatic feature.

qbrozen

well... if you are tempted, maybe I can tempt you more ... that one isn't bright red. It is called coral red. It is very subdued compared to the bright red (which I didn't like, either). To be honest, it is a bit of a girlie kind of color, but I was (and still am) secure enough to drive it.

Before Bill told me the real name of the color, I used to call it metallic rose. Its really quite nice. I wasn't digging it at first, but it was such a clean car and such a good deal that I overlooked it. Eventually, it grew on me and I was really glad I wound up with it. I never passed a car just like mine on the road, that's for sure.

fintail

Good driver/beater for Andre or Lemko

fintail

A good hauler, compared to buying a newer one

andre1969

That's an interesting contrast, the '78 Silverado versus the '78 Ninety-Eight, showing how well trucks tend to hold their value. I have no idea how much that Silverado cost new, but I'd imagine probably no more than $6-7K, whereas the Olds may have been pushing $10K or more, depending on how it's equipped.

Actually, I like 'em both. That truck would be a nice replacement for my '85 Silverado. Looks like it was well-taken care of. And that Olds would make a decent beater probably. Something about that color doesn't seem right, though. It just doesn't look luxurious enough for a Ninety-Eight! Actually, that blue would look better on the truck, while that white/creme 2-tone would look good on the Olds!

I think that "K" code in the 98's VIN is for the 403 V-8.

andre1969

I need someone to talk some sense into me. I went to a classic car show in Rockville, MD this past weekend, and there was an elderly couple there with a 1977 Pontiac Catalina. I've always liked these things, ever since I was a little kid. I think it's mainly the grille, which is the traditional Pontiac split, with a strong horizontal bar on each side, giving it a bit of a Dodge-ish crosshair look. Here's a factory photo of the coupe version.

Well, I talked with this couple for a bit, and asked them, if they were ever interested in selling it, could they give me first dibs on it? I gave them my phone #. The car was a dark forest/emerald metallic green, no vinyl top (a plus in my book), beige vinyl interior, Pontiac 350-2bbl (a big plus over a 231 or 301, but a 400 would be much cooler), seemed rust free, but the paint was wearing thin. Interior was okay, front seat getting a bunch of little cracks running perpendicular to the ribbed pattern. I figured $900-1200 would be fair, and if I was feeling foolish, maybe as high as $1500.

Well, I talked to the owner on Tuesday. I knew I was in for some laughs when he started a sentence with "Well, the blue book says..." :surprise: Fortunately I was able to keep my posture when he followed up with "$2750, but I'd be willing to go as low as $2400".

Now common sense has told me that the last thing I need is another large-ish sedan from that automotive dark era cluttering up my yard. And I'm trying to get the car out of my mind, but just can't. I thought the seller's high asking price would do it, but it hasn't.

So if I was to make this guy an offer, could anybody give me some pointers on how to word it. It's just that if he's thinking $2400 and I'm thinking $900-1200, that just seems too high of a spread. I'm not all that great at negotiating...usually when a price seems too high to me I just walk.

The last time I bought a car, back in May, the conversation went something like this... "How much are you asking?" "Well, I was thinking about $500." "Umm...consider it sold!" And before I knew it, this thing was sitting in my yard.

I'm hoping I can get common sense to prevail this time around, and I can get this Catalina out of my mind.

qbrozen

Well, I would just say "I'm sorry. I didn't think we'd be talking about that kind of money. I can offer you $1200. So please keep my number and if anything changes, let me know."

Mr_Shiftright

$1100--$1500 is all the money in the world for that car especially since it has some cosmetic issues. Any good price guide would back you up here. These cars will always be available cheap. You should drive it before you get all hot under the collar about it.

I've found that many of these "elderly couple" cars are sorely neglected despite their attractive outward appearance. Some of these old folks can't hear and can't see really well anymore and a car can suffer because of it.

78 Silverado: -- I think that truck could be a very good deal (see caveat about "old folks' vehicles" above).

andre1969

$1100--$1500 is all the money in the world for that car especially since it has some cosmetic issues. Any good price guide would back you up here. These cars will always be available cheap. You should drive it before you get all hot under the collar about it.

Thanks, Shifty, that's about what I figured. One thing that I've learned about cars like this is that if I miss one, another will always come along. In fact, I remember the day after I bought my '79 5th Ave back in 2001, right around the corner from me there was a 2-tone green St. Regis that popped up for sale, asking only $500. My 5th Ave was better equipped, with power everything, leather interior, and has the better engine (360 versus 318), but I always loved that 2-tone green they offered. And could honestly live without all the power stuff. Heck, I had two power windows and the fore/aft adjustment of the seat fail, anyway! :sick: And those dumb thick opera windows on the NYer/5th Ave are much more prone to water leaks than the rear windows of the cheaper Newport/Gran Fury/St. Regis.

And now that I think about it, the day I went up to PA this past May to pick up my $500 NYer, we drove past a little sales lot that had a nice looking early 80's Ninety-Eight coupe. In this case though, I had a preference for the NYer.

I could see it though, if I did end up buying this '77 Catalina...within a few days I'd end up running across something else that I want even more. Plus, I imagine this Catalina really isn't much of a difference in driving experience from my '76 LeMans. Same engine (350-2bbl), same THM350 tranny, and probably the same loafy 2.41:1 axle. Probably weighs about the same, too.

Oh, and I did hear this Catalina run, and saw it enter the show field. Sounded pretty healthy. And this elderly couple was from West Va, so I know it was at least reliable enough to get them out here and back! Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have issues...after all, my '79 NYer was reliable enough to make the trip back from PA, but then it left me stranded at work 3 times!

lemko

Geeze! I just went through the same thing this past Saturday, only the stakes were a lot higher - around $20K. I couldn't get this loaded black 2005 Park Avenue I saw on AutoTrader out of my head and just had to look. What killed it for me was that the car was nowhere near as nice as it looked in the pictures - lots of small scratches, the back bumper was poorly repainted, and the front one scuffed and indented. If the car was at least as nice as one of my own, I'd have gone for it. Of course, what I really want is an Ultra. There was a nice white one that I let get away a few months ago.

Mr_Shiftright

Black's a [non-permissible content removed] to keep looking good after a few years of use.

lemko

I should've known better as I had a black 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic. It was gorgeous when it was clean, but every little scratch shows like a neon beacon.

White's probably the best color for hiding scratches as is gray or silver.

Mr_Shiftright

White is pretty bullet-proof. Silver can sometimes show the undercoat on a chip. Silver can be a dangerous color on a low-slung car. On a sunny day with flat light, your car can disappear to another driver merging on the highway.

andre1969

Silver can be a dangerous color on a low-slung car. On a sunny day with flat light, your car can disappear to another driver merging on the highway.

Y'know, it's funny, but I've been saying that for years, that silver is a "dangerous" color, because it tends to blend in with the asphalt/concrete, and the eye in general just doesn't react to silver the way it does to other colors. When I went from a creme colored 1979 Newport to a silver '89 Gran Fury, and then a silver 2000 Intrepid, when I delivered pizzas I'd have close calls and near misses with those silver cars on a regular basis, whereas other motorists tended to avoid that Newport like the plague.

Yet, I've seen insurance study reports and similar documents that claim silver is a "safe" color. So I wonder what gives?

BTW, my '86 Monte Carlo, which got t-boned when I was delivering pizzas, was a 2-tone gray-over-silver, but I got whacked around 9:00 at night, so I doubt the color had anything to do with it!

One thing that's nice about silver though, is that if you don't wash it for awhile, it just looks gray. I think beiges and cremes are probably the best for hiding dirt, though. At least, my white Dart would start showing dirt before any of the creme/beige/pale yellow cars I've had.

My "Nightwatch" '79 New Yorker, which is a dark, non-metallic blue, is a real pain to keep clean. It looks nice right after it's washed, but I swear after a day or two, even just sitting in the yard, it looks dirty again. In contrast, I think I let my 2-tone creme 5th Ave go about a year without washing (garaged, tho), and it still looked clean. At least, until you ran a finger across it and saw what it was supposed to look like!

Mr_Shiftright

You can test this yourself. If you are on the side of a higway, and the sun is to your right (let's say setting sun in the west) and you look left at a car like a silver Mazda RX-7, that car will literally disappear if the sun angle is just right. It's freaky.

oregonboy

You are talking about David Copperfield's RX-7, right? :P

james

fintail

The blue on the Olds reminds me of a shade used to repaint old police cars. I have a suspicion it might not be original.

If I had a big house or a piece of land where I had to haul stuff every now and then, I wouldn't mind that old truck - beats driving a truck every day, where you can get a nice old one for the price of 6 finance payments.

stickguy

No offense, but dude, I think it might be time for an intervention! Just don't invite lemko, I don't think he will be of much help.

andre1969

The blue on the Olds reminds me of a shade used to repaint old police cars. I have a suspicion it might not be original.

That's it! I knew I recognized that blue from somewhere. There's a sales lot just up the street from me that would get in used police cars fairly regularly. Right now they have 4 or 5 Chargers with the 3.5, in either black or dark metallic blue. They used to get in the old "flying brick" style Crown Vics, which almost always tended to be midnight blue, and every once in awhile, a Mopar in that lighter, medium metallic blue. I've heard it referred to "B5 blue", which I guess is the code for the color. I remember one time this sales lot had an '89 Diplomat in that color, as well as a '79 Volare, both of 'em cop packages.

andre1969

No offense, but dude, I think it might be time for an intervention! Just don't invite lemko, I don't think he will be of much help.

Oh I've thought about that, myself. Sometimes I really wish I could bring myself to hate these 70's cars. But then I slip behind the wheel of one and it just feels...right, somehow. :P

Mr_Shiftright

If you EVER need help hating late 70s cars, call me ANYTIME. I'm here for you man. :P