Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

If you can't hear it run you got nothing there but a parts car that nobody wants parts for. Also first year LS400s are kinda edgy with power steering rack issues, interiors that aren't very sturdy, etc.

So I'd say bring a mechanic and if you can't get it to run, don't buy it.

fintail

Yeah you'd want to start it. If the engine is shot, it's worthless. I just checked the value right here on edmunds, and retail for that car even with 80K on it in my area was $5200. Not a lot of money for one with no issues.

I would say half that money for a parts car.

Funny thing about the backseat pic too. That seems to be a classic craigslist ploy. The front probably looks like the scene of a hells angels initiation ceremony. But it still might be better than the leather on those early cars, it really fell apart over time in ones that weren't cared for. I once saw an early LS where the steering wheel was peeling, too. Yuck. I'll take a 6cyl W126 from the same year.

fintail

Well, the price is right

This doesn't look too awful

Frankenbenz

ghulet

....I always find it hard to believe when people want to 'give away' decent cars with problems they invariably claim are minor and/or inexpensive to repair, yet they can't be bothered repairing them. Coincidentally, these cars usually aren't drivable, so short of towing them to a mechanic, it's virtually impossible to know what else is going on. Chances are, if the owner doesn't have the resources to fix it now, he hasn't kept up on other maintenance, either, so on something like a 15 year-old Lexus, there could be a myriad of problems. Or maybe he just wants to cut his losses, or wants a new car. This one could pay off, but at least as likely you'd have a $1500 two-ton decoration instead.

ghulet

...would that 230CE have the same engine as a U.S.-spec 190E 2.3? If so, that car could be a good deal, it looks nice for the price. I just wouldn't want a car that old with a Euro-spec engine, not that I'd necessarily want any 25 year-old, 3500 pound car with a 120hp four. Then again, I've had worse.

Gotta love 1983 cars, the height of anemia--loaded Caprice, even has a sport suspension, but a V6 that probably puts out 100hp.

That 280C with the 350 seems about $2k overpriced, IMO. I mean, couldn't I find a 300CE or maybe even a 400E for $5-6k?

fintail

As far as I know that 2.3 is very similar, yes. I don't know a ton about the 4 cyl engines, but it should be very similar if not the same. It'd be a slug, but there's no fast W123 any way you look at it.

The frankenbenz is overpriced unless you want a curiosity. I've seen some nice looking earlier 300CEs bringing that much, and the W124 coupe is just a prettier more modern car. You could get a turbo diesel for that too. That price might be the low end for a decent 400E, or maybe right for an iffier example.

fintail

Really dull and stodgy but some people like this kind of thing. My dad would want it.

Nice enough looking W116 for the money

ghulet

That 280SE looks decent enough, especially for $750, but my those 116s are getting scarce, and I'm afraid they've become high on the 'least loved' list for Benzes. I mean, they were a huge step forward technologically in many ways compared to their predecessors, but had their share of problems (thirstiness, bad seat padding off the top of my head), and of course were, um, aesthetically challenged compared to generations before and after.

ghulet

...if this guy will get anywhere near this kind of money (I don't think so; perhaps in twenty years):

http://chicago.craigslist.org/car/129880065.html

ghulet

Though undoubtedly the parts on this thing would be worse than the ones you'd replace:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/car/129958515.html

Still, the price is right, eh?

lemko

Holy smoke! That Seville is beautiful! I very much doubt he will get that much for it unless somebody really really wants it.

andre1969

is a very common ploy, simply because it's not that hard to keep a back seat looking good. Heck, even on my '79 Newport, which had 230,000 miles on it when I bought it from the junkyard, the back seat looked like it was brand-new. And on my '76 LeMans and '79 NYer, the back seats look much better than the fronts. Now that I think of it, the back seat on my '68 Dart, when I bought it with 253,000 miles on it, looked good. The only problem was that it was white vinyl, so it did look a bit dirty. The front was all ripped to hell, though.

With the NYer and LeMans I bought from eBay though, they did at least show pics of the front seats as well, so I knew what I was getting myself into!

andre1969

but I'm still of the attitude that a halfway decent runner shouldn't be more than $2500 or so. So maybe $7-8K for the nicest one in the world?

I don't think those first-gen Sevilles have that much of a following today, because they're just not flashy or hedonistic or massive enough. It's kind of sad, but the very qualities that made them quite capable back when they were new now work against them today. Something like this '77 Seville almost seems anti-climatic compared to a Diamond Jubilee Mark V, an Eldo convertible, Fleetwood Talisman, or some fluffed up designer edition Continental Town Sedan loveboat.

imidazol97

I don't think I've ever seen one at a local, annual classic show. Good point.

I've seen the gangster back one. Maybe they're all being driven by original owners who don't yet see them as interesting cars.

andre1969

pretty regularly at shows like Spring/Fall Carlisle, when they have the big swap meet. Can't remember if I've seen many at the GM Nationals though. And maybe one or two might pop up at the big classic car show in Macungie, PA.

I like 'em, though. While I do have a thing for those big, hedonistic monsters, I can also appreciate a slim, trim (for the time) mini-cruiser like a first-gen Seville. Don't get me started on the Lincoln Versailles, though! :P

fintail

Yeah, the W116 wasn't a beauty, especially in US-spec. Look at the size of those bumpers, and the ugly lights. They also had interiors that decompose, that engine is kind of clattery (not far removed from the unit in my fintail), and they do rust. Still...it's pocket money.

That Seville is at least 100% overpriced I am sure, but it is nice looking.

That fintail is way beyond redemption, but I think its worth it as a parts car. I see it has dealer-installed AC and a period radio...those two alone are worth the money. I am sure it has some other odd trim that could be useful too, maybe glass and lenses as well. That's the kind of thing I would buy if I had a place to keep old heaps. I could accumulate 50 of them and start my own fintail u-pull junkyard.

Speaking of the Seneca from the mystery car pix thread

This looks to be in remarkable condition...of course it also has zero fun quotient and the same value quotient

lemko

There are plenty of really nice first-gen Sevilles at the Cadillac shows I attend. Some of these cars are in such excellent condition, I swear the owners bought them right off the lot and had them hermetically sealed in special storage after they got them home. There are also quite a few of the odd bustleback 1980-85 Sevilles in equally good condition. I see virtually none of the awful 1986-91 generation.

british_rover

might make a good rolling billboards for events or something if you could ever get parts for it that is.

jrosasmc

There's an older lady in my town who has one of the "awful" Sevilles, a '91 that she bought new. It only has 46k miles on it and she does not take it out in rain or snow. She has told me on more than one occasion that it will someday be a "collector's car." The question is: Why bother?

andre1969

what some people start thinking will be "collector cars". There's this old lady who works on my floor, and has an Ion that she hates. She mentioned another lady she knows who has a "classic car" (her words, not mine) that she'd love to buy off of her. Her rationale is that she could buy this "classic car", put the money in it to fix it up, and would have a much better car than her Ion.

Well, she mentioned that it's always parked out back and immediately I said "Oh, that old brown Nova?!" This was one of those old late 70's Nova sedans that had the 6 taillights instead of the usual 4, and while it still had round headlights, it had a pretentious vertical grille, and an interior with a bit more fluff. It was called either a Nova Concours or Luxury Nova, I forget which.

Anyway, I've worked here for 13 years now, and used to see the car all the time back then, and truth be told, it didn't look so hot back then! I can't imagine what condition it's in now! I usually don't park out in back, but I do still see it on occasion, off in the distance at the back of the parking lot during the times that I do. I guess if nothing else, it still runs. Either that or it broke down in that spot years ago, and security just hasn't bothered with it!

It just tickled me though, that someone thought that a tired old late 70's Nova would be a better car than her fairly-new Saturn. Geeze, I hope more people don't start thinking like that, or GM is doomed! She asked me what I thought it was worth, and I said oh, maybe $500-1000. Of course, she didn't believe me, because it was a "classic".

Funny how people think that just because a car has survived long enough to get historic tags that suddenly it's a hot commodity.

ghulet

...my mom is the opposite (not that she's quite an 'old lady' yet), but cars that I think are classics (66 Cadillacs, 67 Chevies) were out when she was in high school, so they're just 'old cars' to her. I guess some day someone will think a Corsica is a classic, but hopefully not too soon. I have a hard time thinking of ANY Nova as a 'classic', mostly because they were generally unloved orphans when new. A mid-70s Concours sedan? No way.

fintail

It's funny...on that note, there are older cars I don't think of as "classic" like 70s land yachts, that many of my friends do think of as "classic". Cars that I can remember as just very out of style looking old used cars from when I was a little kid can't be "classic". I can call some early and mid 60s cars "classic", but the bloat of the late 60s hurts the idea to me.

But at the same time, I have a heirarchy...there's "classic" and "special interest". Even some 80s cars are "special interest" to me. Those land yachts would fit in there.

Of course, we could always go by a haughty out of touch AACA "classic" definition, and very few postwar cars would fit the definition.

andre1969

I tend to cut things off around 1970. Where if it's a 1969 or older it's "classic" (my definition, not the AACA's!) but if it's 1970 or newer, it's just an old car....even though there are plenty of examples of "just old cars" that I love and cherish! :shades:

I think the main reason I probably do that is that I was born in 1970, and I remember most of the 70's, whereas the 60's were before my time and as a result just seemed more exotic, I guess.

Also, for the most part, anything domestic designed in the 70's was often inferior to the 60's car it replaced, so that might reinforce my attitude a bit. For example, the big '71-76 GM cars didn't hold up as well as the '70 and earlier. Same with the '73-77 intermediates versus the '68-72. And usually 70's cars didn't perform as well as their 60's counterparts, although to be fair, something like a '78 Impala with a 305 would do about as well in acceleration is a '68 Impala with a 307.

1racefan

Have a custom platform/deck built on the roof of it, park it by a NASCAR track on race weekend, and I guarantee it would go quickly and show up in the infield of a racetrack in the future.

fintail

I am similar in that, I guess. I was born 7 years after you, but I grew up in the inland northwest - a very dry area. So there was a lot of 50s and 60s metal still on the road when I was a kid in the 80s. I remember some older cars on my street - a 66 or so Pontiac 4 door HT driven by a teenager. I remember he replaced the cool original steering wheel with a chain link one (!). I thought that seemed dangerous. There was also an old man with a 54 or so Hudson Hollywood coupe, there was a 65 Mustang, and a couple blocks away a guy had 3 59 Fords, all in nice condition. The Hudson seemed old because my dad liked it, but the others were nothing more than curiosities. Our neighbors had a Fiat X19 as a toy car, and it seemed like a modern normal car to me. The same people also had a very nice 46 Chevy pickup that seemed old, but not especially antique at the time. Their normal car was a Camry - boring even then.

Near a friend's house there was a guy with a 49 Mercury wagon in his backyard. He had mean looking dogs so I never got to see it very close, but I had an interest in it as it looked like a surfer car (funny as I lived in the desert). Right near that there was an old couple with a pristine SWB 300SE fintail, two tone grey and white. I thought it was very ugly and couldn't understand how MB could make something so weird. Sometimes it would be parked on the street and I would examine it, and it was just too weird for me, especially the dashboard. How things change.

A friend of my dad's had a place on the egde of town, with about 30 cars in his backyard. Some of them I thought were cool, like a model A, Ford Anglia 105E, and some 50s metal...but most of it was 60s stuff that didn't really get me going. I remember he had a Roadrunner back there, along with several 65-66 Impala 2 doors. He's probably made a little money now.

I guess a lot of the "classic car" thing is relative. I'll have a hard time calling most anything from the 80s classic.

british_rover

Yeah that is another good idea.

andre1969

about the "classic car" thing being relative was when one of the kids that worked inside at the pizza place I delivered for said about my '79 Newport "Wow, it's older than I am!" So I guess to her, a 1979 car would seem just as old and from a different era as a 1969 does to me.

Another sign was, a few years later, oh, around 2000, I was talking about my Dart (hadn't used it to deliver pizzas in about 3 years by this time) and one of the kids working there asked "What's a Dart?" :confuse:

martian

I think you are right about the decade of the 40's-WWII put the industry on hold from 1941-45-I recall that the giant Ford Rouge plant made bombers for the AAF! The decade of the 30's was a tough one-with the onset of the Great depression, nobody had any money, and some great marques bit the dust. So your observation about the lack of progress in the 30's is correct. About the only bright spot was FORD's hi power V-8s (beloved of Bonny and Clyde), and the final adoption of hydraulic brakes. One other thing-Detroit didn't make driving easy for a long time-the power sterring system used today was patented in 1927-but didn't appear on Oldsmobile cars until 1954! :confuse:

lemko

Well, some uninformed people think my 1989 Cadillac Brougham is a classic. I know the car will be nothing of the sort. In the future, I will probably be like the old guy who really liked his 1958 Buick Limited sedan in his youth and preserved it as well as he could.

andre1969

one of the kids my one roommate works with, who just turned 21 I think, really ooh'ed and ahh'ed when he first saw my '76 LeMans. He's like "WOW, a musclecar!!" I just kinda kept my mouth shut on that one.

But I'm pretty much the same as you, Lemko. I like what I like, and don't really care if it becomes a highly-valued collectible or not.

fintail

That's a way to look at it...when I got my fintail in 1994, it was 30 years old. Today a 30 year old car is from 1976, and a car as old as the fintail is now would have been from 1952, back in 1994. It's all relative.

The best thing to do is like what you like, and keep it. Few cars are wise financial decisions anyway, so you might as well have some fun.

lilengineerboy

That is a parts car to fix up a UrQuattro. The doors, hood, trunk and interior will mate on to the UrQ. Shiftright is correct, its a major PITA to work on, might as well be something cool.
The CoupeGTs are running about $500 on ebay.
I think the minimum to have a cool Audi is for it to at least be AWD like a 91 200 Quattro with the 20 valve engine. Its about as powerful and as fast as a WRX but about half again as big, and 10 years older.

andre1969

I was stuck behind an early 80's, Knight Rider/Smokey and the Bandit III style Trans Am at a traffic light. It had Pennsylvania plates on it, and they were historic! I thought it was a bit odd, because the oldest that car could be is a 1982, and in Maryland it wouldn't be eligible for historic plates until January 1, 2007, which is when they consider it to be 25 years old. Maybe in PA it's only 20 years?

Still, it seemed really strange to think that something like that will be showing up soon at AACA meetings. In the words of Buford T. Justice, "what in the hell's the world coming to?"

Guess I shouldn't talk though, since my '79 NYer and '76 LeMans would now qualify for AACA meets!

lemko

Seen stranger things. Remember the 1979 AMC Concord that was at Macungie?

andre1969

yeah, I remember that one! Actually, I was thinking about bringing either my '79 NYer or '76 LeMans to Macungie this year, so that we could park on the field and not have to walk so far! Plus, that way I could keep a cooler in it with some drinks and stuff, which would help out if it's a hot day.

I know you'd probably prefer to see the NYer, but the LeMans really does show better. It's in better shape, has correct wheels (if not tires), doesn't have its exhaust dragging. Plus, its radio works. The NYer lost its FM band about a year ago for some reason, and then on the way to the Mopar Carlisle show this past summer, the antenna broke off! Oh well, not like I was missing much anyway...the only thing I could find when it snapped off was Dr. Phil. :P

Oh yeah, Grbeck and I have been seeing a Vega showing up at Hershey on occasion, and I remember one year there was a Fairmont there!

fintail

Maybe at half the price...the lights are worth something

Speaking of old LS - this one looks fairly ready to roll

bumpy

...the lights are worth something

I'll bet. You won't find those at NAPA.

PF_Flyer

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The chat gets underway at 9PM ET/6PM PT.

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http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/eagle11106.html

lemko

The one I'd really like to see is the DeSoto! I love those late '50s early '60s Mopars! Remember the '57 Dodge at Macungie? The LeMans is probably the most appropriate one to bring as it is in the best condition.

A Cosworth Vega would be something. Other than that, a regular Vega is only interesting in that it somehow managed to survive. A Fairmont?

Mr_Shiftright

For those interested in self-destruction, I offer the following sure-fire disasters:

Beat me, whip me, please:

http://www.craigslist.org/eby/car/129947355.html
-------------------------------------------------

So much for "classic" status on this one:

http://www.craigslist.org/sby/car/129236030.html
------------------------------------------------

How to put $3,000 in a $1,000 car:

http://www.craigslist.org/sfc/car/130111568.html

-------------------------------------------------

I hope his bodywork was better than his spelling:

http://www.craigslist.org/eby/car/129851596.html

andre1969

those 80's Jags are such money pits. I've always loved the styling of 'em.

Mr_Shiftright

that's what makes the trap so deadly---the bait is attractive!

andre1969

there was this family that went to my church who drove exclusively Jags. This was around 1992 I guess. One of them was a pale lilac/rose metallic and the other was black. I knew one was an '83 and one was an '86, but didn't know which was which. I thought the black one was the newer one because it looked nicer...turns out it had been repainted! The lilac/rose one was horribly faded. Also found out that they paid something like $4,000 for the '86.

I thought that was a killer deal at the time for a recent Jag. Heck, that's probably about what my Mom's '86 Monte Carlo would have gone for at the time. But thinking back on it, Mom's '86 Monte Carlo cost around $14K new. I'm sure that the Jag cost a few bucks more! Someone took a bath, at trade in time, I'm sure. :sick:

stickguy

doesn't look to bad in the pictures. Probably nothing a used 350 Chevy and a couple of cases of beer couldn't take care of.

qbrozen

Thank GOD that Jag is in Cali because I'd be begging my wife to let me buy it (if the body is as good as those 2 pics make it seem).

water in the oil doesn't scare me at that price (but i'm an idiot).

ghulet

http://chicago.craigslist.org/car/130426450.html

I love the 'no blower for the A/C' part, as if that's the worst thing NOT to have a blower for (ever tried to drive in Chicago in February with no defrost or heat? I have, it's no fun). Looks like it could be great for body parts, though. I can't imagine why anyone here would buy an old 7-series for a winter beater, I can't think of a worse car for that job.

qbrozen

my inability to judge how fast i'm going based on the wind travelling past my sideview mirrors prevents me from buying a car with no speedometer.

jlawrence01

I love the 'no blower for the A/C' part, as if that's the worst thing NOT to have a blower for (ever tried to drive in Chicago in February with no defrost or heat? I have, it's no fun).

Did it yesterday as I left my car in the Metra lot for three days .... Better have a LOT of windshield wiper solvent ... must have used a quart or two to go 1.2 miles...

ghulet

....currently NEITHER car in our family of two fine American SUVs (96 Blazer, 01 Wrangler) has functioning wiper fluid right now. Luckily, this has been an unbelievably mild winter.

martian

For some odd reason, I've always liked this car..do they have any following? I recall that you could get one with all kinds of bizarre gadgets-including voice recognition unlocking! I wonder how reliable this stuff has been over the years-you don't see people clamoring for talking dashboards any more!