Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

qbrozen

I really dig this at first glance. What do y'all think?

1954 Chevrolet 210

http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/chevrolet/210/1865876.html

Mr_Shiftright

Well...it's not a show quality restoration that's for sure...probably a high #3 car. I'd like to examine that right side "dog leg" that goes from the frame to the body. Can't tell if there's a crack or rust in there. Also the firewall is sloppy, and the weatherstripping on the doors wasn't replaced. Why oh why go throught all the trouble of painting and re-upholstering a car and keep the same rotten door seals?

Inner trunk lid insulation is just painted over---you know what they say "God is in the details". Some tarnish/light pits on trim pieces.

But it looks like a decent "10-footer" and the price seems like a fair starting point for negotiation. If it ran well I'd appraise it around $10K---$12,000. Those frame members need a close look however, because if they are compromised the body has to be lifted and something welded in there.

QUOTE; " car that will win you trophies at car shows"......er......probably not.

qbrozen

$12k was my guess, so guess I wasn't far off. You certainly know more about the details than I, thats for sure.

Mr_Shiftright

That was a fair guess. The paint and interior are correct colors at least. Nice little car to put around in--easy to fix, might do 55 on the highway without too much strain. I"m sure whoever bought a '54 Chevy was kinda bummed when the '55s came out!

uplanderguy

Stuff that turns me off right away, is non-factory trim, wheelcovers, emblem placement wrong (this makes me crazy). I don't see any of that on this car. I like the '54 better than the '53 and wouldn't be ashamed to own this car. I'd have to check the brochure but that looks like a DelRay type of interior; did they have that in '54?

UPDATE: I had originally gone right to the pics; glad to see from the text that my memory of the DelRay interior is intact! I believe in shoebox Chevys, there is added value assigned to that.

Speaking of the above, I sent an email to the seller of that '65 Impala SS with the maroon painted top that per the brochure was supposed to have not been offered on SS models. Asked him to please send a pic of the trim tag or at least send me the code after "PAINT" from the tag. A week later, no answer.

My wife and I were just talking about this, after having a lackadaisical young female restaurant server yesterday. Any job I've ever had post-college has mentioned "sense of urgency" as an expectation. We're surprised how often we run into total lack of that today. And yes I know, restaurant server and possibly used-car dealer are not a college-degree job, but, sheesh.

I've told myself that any Studebaker I buy again (and it's probably not bad practice for any car), I'm asking the seller before I even travel there, that I want to remove the sill plates, pull carpeting back, and remove bottom back-seat cushion--all easy things to do and re-do. I think I'd even offer them a few bucks to let me do that even if I don't end up buying the car.

qbrozen

Ha. Then you would completely despise the fact that I daydreamed a bit yesterday of dropping in a crate engine and trans into that '54. upgrading the brakes, suspension, and wheels and tires, too.

ab348

qbrozen said:

Ha. Then you would completely despise the fact that I daydreamed a bit yesterday of dropping in a crate engine and trans into that '54. upgrading the brakes, suspension, and wheels and tires, too.

A fellow I know did all that and much more to his '54 convertible. Modern seats, electronics, everything updated except the body. Spent well into the 6 figures doing it and the shop that built it all did a wonderful job. The grand plan was for him and his wife to spend 5 months a year in Florida, where the car would stay and they would use it as a driver while there. Sadly she was diagnosed with dementia and now is in a care facility, so all that was scuttled. He still drives the car locally around here in the summer but not surprisingly he is a different guy now from when I first knew him and heard him discussing the plans for the car. Sad.

qbrozen

Yes, that is.

My plans wouldn't be anywhere near that number. I could come in under $10k (doing the work myself, of course), putting the whole thing, including $12k for the car, well under $25k. Not bad for a decent hot rod like that.

Mr_Shiftright

qbrozen said:

Ha. Then you would completely despise the fact that I daydreamed a bit yesterday of dropping in a crate engine and trans into that '54. upgrading the brakes, suspension, and wheels and tires, too.

Given that interest in '46-'54 cars is tanking pretty quickly in the collector car hobby, you're probably going to see more of that sort of thing. Allied to that lack of interest is the trend in car collecting today to get out and drive your cars more often, and show them less. Naturally, updating brakes and suspension and powerplant is a nice fit to these trends.

You can upgrade a car like that '54 with very little change to its outward appearance.

qbrozen

Mr_Shiftright said:

Ha. Then you would completely despise the fact that I daydreamed a bit yesterday of dropping in a crate engine and trans into that '54. upgrading the brakes, suspension, and wheels and tires, too.

Given that interest in '46-'54 cars is tanking pretty quickly in the collector car hobby, you're probably going to see more of that sort of thing. Allied to that lack of interest is the trend in car collecting today to get out and drive your cars more often, and show them less. Naturally, updating brakes and suspension and powerplant is a nice fit to these trends. You can upgrade a car like that '54 with very little change to its outward appearance.

I would think putting modern running gear undsr a car like that would make it worth more than keeping it original. Wonder if I could buy one already done for less. 

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, very often modernizing a car like that would increase the value--depending of course on how well you've done it.

And also a big YES---buy one that someone else has built---you'll get it for .50 cents on the dollar.

Like this?

http://www.cars-on-line.com/57216.html

You couldn't build one for that.

Generally you can pay from $10K to $30K for an early 50s Chevy custom coupe or 2DHT.

qbrozen

Yeah, something like that. Still wrong wheels and tires and he makes no mention of brakes, but you get the idea.

ab348

On the local '54 Chevy convertible I mentioned, I found a gallery of pics showing the entire job. You can see the amount of work done here:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/115651896199973228786/album/AF1QipOoZ7BvSZ0sozfCRDWaRCQQRaVGIRJg9IUIcqas?source=pwa

Really not to my taste, but a lovely job with great craftsmanship.






The owner wrote a tale of his history with the car here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3Whl3edNnHMJ:hacc.chebucto.org/images/beaulieu1954belair.rtf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

stickguy

not my taste, but nice looking job.

I really don't like that era of car though. Do the same thing with something from the 60s, and we could be talking. maybe an early Riviera if you like that style and size. heck, the right Stude could work. or certain Mopars.

qbrozen

Can't say what it is, but I gravitate toward late 40s to early 50s. The early 60s cars I like are mostly the midsizers like the Falcon, Nova, etc.

fintail

That resto-mod interior reminds me of something in a higher end motorhome or boat. Don't know if it works in a car.

fintail

After day after day of rain during a record breaking wet month, the sun came out today, and so did the fintail. Ran just as well as always, got a "beautiful car" comment and turned a few heads. And I got to use the horn a couple times again, which always makes me smirk. A couple gratuitous shots:

berri

That resto-mod interior reminds me of something in a higher end motorhome or boat. Don't know if it works in a car.

Just needs some fuzzy dice hanging from the mirror

jpp75

Looking great as always @fintail!

uplanderguy

It's totally subjective, of course, but while I can appreciate workmanship on a custom job, I'd never buy one. They're usually offered for sale at some price where the seller is feeling he can recoup some of his investment, and you're buying something that is largely someone else's tastes. My hunch is that most cars like that end up being sold to people who aren't necessarily afficionados of the marque. I'd think an original or even restored somewhat-to-original/authentic will always appeal to a wider swath of the buying public, particularly the marque loyalists.

That reminds me--I'm always surprised at how many people mean to say "marque" and end up saying "marquee", LOL.

fintail

Thanks jpp.

Re: customs, unless it's a cool vintage job, the only one I could see myself ever wanting would be a resto-mod where the interior and exterior are essentially stock looking, but the powertrain is updated. Even that Chevy convertible is a bit much for me.

texases

I just can't get by a new looking interior in a classic car. I'm sure it's much more comfortable, but it just looks wrong to me.

uplanderguy

Personally, I agree, texases.

Similarly, a real peeve of mine (noted here before) is nameplates or emblems an inch, two, three, four inches off from where they're supposed to be. That just slaps me in the face, and would every single time I climbed in a car. My friend says he hates orange peel in paint. Well, who doesn't, but I kid that he can see that up close but I can see the emblem in the wrong place half-a-block away, LOL! And to me, it's not that it's hard to get it in the right place, but sooooo many places just don't bother. It's certainly hard to correct. I see it in late-model stuff daily. Isn't the idea of bodywork so that you can't tell there's been bodywork, LOL?!

gsemike

Duster 360

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/plymouth/duster/1834363.html

Is a 360 duster even a thing? I'm used to hearing about 340, 4 speed being the Duster to have. The price is a pipe dream no doubt

tjc78

The emblem thing bothers me too. I notice lots of newer cars that were clearly repaired. For some reason they always screw up Altimas. The emblems are on the lower portion of the trunk lid, but I've seen quite a few placed up high.

fintail

80K Duster LOL

I see misplaced MB emblems too, sometimes even on the wrong side of the trunklid.

uplanderguy

RE.: That Duster--I'd have to check out the "Old Car Manuals Project" to verify the availability of a 360 Duster. Not ringing a bell, but Mopar wasn't really my thing so I will not venture a guess.

There is a Facebook page I'm a member of, that has to do with 'bringing reasonable prices back to the old-car hobby'. A running joke there is the presentation of "The Golden Crack Pipe Award" to people who price cars with no attention whatsoever to what similar cars have sold for previously.

Mr_Shiftright

gsemike said:

Duster 360

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/plymouth/duster/1834363.html

Is a 360 duster even a thing? I'm used to hearing about 340, 4 speed being the Duster to have. The price is a pipe dream no doubt

Yeah, the Duster 360 is a thing, but that one, as nice as it is, is seriously over-priced. Not even close to market value. Probably not even worth one-half the asking price. More like $25K-$30K if you hit a home run.

I think we'll see more '46-'54 customs and resto mods, because the market is very stagnant for these cars in stock form (with some notable exceptions). Certainly the sedans and 2-door posts are very stagnant.

One benefit of having a liberal attitude toward customs in this era is that 95% of '46-54 cars are not worth the cost of a full restoration, so they are often abandoned. Customizers often rescue cars that would otherwise have been destroyed.

When you consider the huge impact of SEMA, all the hot rod events, the popularity of drag racing, all the nostalgia events, etc. you see that customs are a gateway for younger people to get interested in cars. They don't want to own, or drive, grandpa's Chevy, at least not like Chevrolet made it.

stickguy

Customs make sense. Not like you can really drive a 48 domestic in normal traffic. And not everyone wants a trailer queen.

I love dusters. My HS car. Always wanted a 4 speed V8 one. But not at that price.

texases

Yeah, anyone paying half that asking price for a smogged up '74 Duster with the big bumpers is NUTS. A '70 or '71 with a 340 would be much preferable to me...

uplanderguy

I agree that many customs begin with a car that wasn't very nice, but as an example, IMHO that '54 Chevy is too nice to cut up/turn into a custom. I'd rather someone start with another piece than do that to that car. However, of course I am aware that anyone can do whatever they want with their money and their car.

There's something to be said for a nice driver, and one that can introduce someone to the hobby at a fairly reasonable price.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, and slap a Mopar 6-Pack manifold on there and have plenty of fun for well under $20K.

ab348

tjc78 said:

The emblem thing bothers me too. I notice lots of newer cars that were clearly repaired. For some reason they always screw up Altimas. The emblems are on the lower portion of the trunk lid, but I've seen quite a few placed up high.

Manufacturers adds to the confusion by moving them around year over year. To wit:

qbrozen

I can't possibly prepare you for what you are about to see...
Too bad it looks like a lot of work went into this.

fintail

I like how the ad proactively mentions the ease of a color change.

texases

Eyeeeeeeee!!!!

Why didn't the previous owner paint it a normal color, and wrap it wacky?

ab348

OTOH, if you owned a business whose logo was light blue and gold, you could use it as a mascot car!

uplanderguy

Why a body shop wouldn't take a pic of emblem location before they do replacement is a mystery to me, but then in my job I get paid to find other people's oversights or errors, LOL.

ab348

stickguy said:

not my taste, but nice looking job.

I really don't like that era of car though. Do the same thing with something from the 60s, and we could be talking. maybe an early Riviera if you like that style and size. heck, the right Stude could work. or certain Mopars.

I agree. That custom '54 Chevy convertible is not my thing at all. This is a bit out there for me also, but I think that kind of customization works better on something like this, which is coming up at B-J:

qbrozen

Must have run out of money. Body appears decent. Too bad about the rest of it. Maybe I'm off, but I can't imagine this is worth more than maybe $13k?

THIS on the other hand, is just gorgeous! I can't say I'm at all educated on '50s drivetrains, but what is with the 3rd pedal if it is claimed to be an automatic?

uplanderguy

For the period, I've always liked that era Chrysler instrument panel, but I have no idea why there appears to be a clutch pedal on a car advertised as an automatic.

stickguy

It is a 4 speed "prestomatic" trans. Never heard of it, but in those days, weren't there all kinds of weird hybrid trans?

Mr_Shiftright

50 Chrysler -- oh, that's a type of Fluid Drive--it's a fluid coupling put in place of a flywheel. It's not actually a "transmission", just a coupling. Chrysler made these contraptions under various names-- Vacamatic, Prestomatic, Fluidmatic (Chrysler), Simplimatic, Tip-Toe Hydraulic Shift (DeSoto) and Gyromatic (Dodge). They were not fully automatic transmissions, there is no torque converter.

ab348

Actually, that's not quite right, Shifty, according to Wiki:

"The M6 Presto-Matic was a Chrysler Corporation transmission produced from 1946–1953. It was a special manual transmission with a torque converter or fluid coupling. Although it had just two forward gears, an electric overdrive unit was attached and useful in either gear for a total of four forward speeds.

The driver would use the clutch pedal any time when selecting low, high, or reverse gear. Once underway, the accelerator could be eased and the car would engage the overdrive. With the Fluid Drive coupling, the car could be brought to a halt in gear without releasing the clutch and would creep like an automatic.

Attached to the transmission was an “underdrive” with a reduction gear of 1.75/1. The shift lever was column-mounted and had three positions: Low (in the “2nd” position of a conventional 3-speed manual unit), High (in the “3rd” position), and Reverse (same as the 3-speed). The clutch had to be depressed every time the gear shift lever was moved. When the lever was put in Low, the car started in “underdrive” low; when the vehicle reached a minimum speed of 6 mph (9.7 km/h), the driver lifted his foot off the accelerator, the underdrive unit would kick out and the car would be in Low. Similarly, with the lever in High position, the car would start in underdrive high, and at any speed above 13 mph (21 km/h), the driver would lift his foot and the car would “shift” into direct drive.

This configuration had the effect of providing 4 gear ratios:

Underdrive Low, 3.57/1,
Low 2.04/1,
Underdrive High, 1.75/1,
High, 1/1.

In order for the unit to work without gear clashing, it contained a freewheeling device (in Underdrive, Low and High), and the Owner’s manual cautioned drivers not to use “1st or 3rd” gear when descending hills, because there was no engine compression braking in those free-wheeling ranges. Generally, most drivers started an M6 car in High and accomplished the shift to direct drive somewhere between 13 and 25 MPH by releasing the accelerator pedal and waiting for the “clunk” that signaled the disengagement of the underdrive. An M6 car would automatically shift from High down to underdrive high when car speed dropped below approximately 11 MPH."

It really is a stately car, very nice.

Mr_Shiftright

There are two different systems. Straight Fluid Drive and then a fluid drive mated to Chrysler's M6 semi-automatic transmissions. The two are often confused. You're describing the M6 version. I didn't explain the two very well, sorry. The original version was much simpler.

qbrozen

Curious what you think of that New Yorker, Shifty.

qbrozen

Just looks up some specs. That NYer is 11 inches longer than my wife's minivan, meaning it won't fit in my garage, and the 0-60 "sprint" takes 21 seconds, while consuming 1 gallon of fuel approx every 11 miles. It does look great doing it, though.

Mr_Shiftright

qbrozen said:

Curious what you think of that New Yorker, Shifty.

Looks like a pretty well done car, although there are some things that appear incorrect. But nothing bad jumps out at me at all. It would definitely be slow and steady but these 50s Chryslers are extremely well made cars compared to say a lower line Chevy or Ford. The Fluid Drive will sap a lot of power and stopping this thing could be an adventure.

But all in all I like it. Price-wise, it's ambitious. I'd hit it at about $16,5K--$17.5K if it were really a local show quality piece...if it didn't run out great or had some needs, or if it's in reality a "very clean driver", then adjust accordingly to perhaps $13,5K. It sure could use a set of radials!

qbrozen

good to know. thanks.

uplanderguy

The K.T. Keller models, nicknamed after the head of the Company who wanted to be able to wear a hat in the car.

The brochure for the '50 New Yorker only mentions the Prestomatic from what I could see (a quick look).