Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail

Of course, the plugs foul if lugged or driven too gently. My car being an automatic, I often shift for myself, and keep the shift points about 10 mph higher than the transmission wants to shift - for an engine that hates to lug, the transmission is designed to upshift too early.

Still, my car is even the racy 220SE, and it has around 135 hp - those are the old hp.

Mr_Shiftright said:

No, it wasn't much of a drain on power. With those cars, you have to just be sure to keep them revved up all the time. Don't lug a fintail's engine, it doesn't like it. In that regard, a stickshift version is probably easier to drive with AC.

isellhondas

It's possible that those shift points can be adjusted to shift at higher RPM's!

fintail

I don't know if I want to be that involved - the unit has made it this long, don't want to tempt fate

isellhondas

I hear you. A transmission overhaul wouldn't be cheap!

fintail

Fortunately, and knock on wood (of which there is plenty in the car), I have yet to see an automatic fintail with a bad transmission. Not that it isn't possible, I just haven't encountered one. They seem to be stout units, and maybe the lack of torque converter is part of that. I don't mind shifting it for myself a bit - a small I6 can sound somewhat nice when revved, a little sporty/raspy.

qbrozen

My 190E had an interesting setup on the trans. A valve on the side of the trans that was very hard to reach could be pulled out and twisted to change the shift firmness. A cable on the throttle could be adjusted to change the shift timing.

The previous owner confessed he wasn't sure how much life the trans had in it because of how it shifted. He had taken it to a mechanic who changed the fluid and adjusted the throttle cable but could not fix the hard shifting issue. Took me a few mins to "fix" it.

tjc78

The Ford C6 transmission has something similar. There is an adjustment for the intermediate band. If adjusted improperly you get a really soft 1-2 shift.

fintail

Interesting about the adjustment on the 190E transmission. I think my old 6cyl W126 might have had something like that.

Generally, if maintained, I think MB transmissions are generally sturdy. You need to maintain them by the book but if you do, they seem as solid as the best of them. In the pre-V8 cars, maybe because the automatic cars tended to not be the most powerful.

andres3

omarman said:

$300 is the price to make all brake troubles go away? Or was it $4K plus $300 for an upgrade to make the $4K brake kit work? How much is the restocking fee to make the big brake kit trouble go away?

The deal is they pay for return shipping of the old kit, and shipping of the new kit all in the added $300 to the previous $4k (although I did get them to discount a bit below $4K before taxes, but for the sake of clarity, let's round).

No restocking fees. I own a 2016 Audi TTS. I know this. They knew this. When a parts manufacture ships parts that don't fit the car, do they really expect for anyone to pay for return shipping, restocking, or accept a "store" credit?

Apparently some parts sellers think this, as I'm having trouble getting refunded on the "yellow stuff" front pads and SS lines that don't fit from a previous adventure.

I suppose they delusion-ally think I don't know what I own or am driving.

fintail

Had the old dear out today. Another sub-freezing morning, and very cold garage. I think the car cranked a little slower, but started on the first turn of the key, 13 days from the day it was started last. Ran fine, but maybe not quite as perfect as last time (I noticed a slight miss a couple times at a certain speed) - maybe the cold is getting to it, or just an off day. I didn't drive it as far as usual, as traffic is insane today, but still maybe 15 miles or so.

Pic in the garage in the building where I live:

fintail

Here's a nice project car rcently found by someone on a MB-themed forum

I think the buyer did fine - looks solid, bench seat is a rare option (I prefer buckets though), would easily bring twice as much in Europe.

isellhondas

I hope it really is a pan gasket and not a front seal! I've never been that lucky!

ab348

fintail said:

Here's a nice project car rcently found by someone on a MB-themed forum

I think the buyer did fine - looks solid, bench seat is a rare option (I prefer buckets though), would easily bring twice as much in Europe.

Is that cloth upholstery? Would that have been original?

fintail

Yep, at the time fintails could have cloth (I think 2 or 3 different types depending on model), Tex, or leather. The rear cloth is the correct pattern, and I assume original.

ab348 said:

Is that cloth upholstery? Would that have been original?

fintail

Maybe he's a DIYer who can do it himself. The car apparently made it back home with no issue - from the post, that's about a 250 mile drive, which bodes well, kind of the Shifty rule - drive it hard for an hour, if it holds up, it's probably solid.

isellhondas said:

I hope it really is a pan gasket and not a front seal! I've never been that lucky!

isellhondas

I like yours better! MUCH better!

fintail

Mine is probably not really nicer than that one, mine just has a photogenic color, and is kept clean. But thanks It never fails to get attention out on the road either, I think it is old enough where some people, young people especially, have just never seen one like it.

bhill2

Fin, one thing that the poster said is that it may have been brought in from Germany. Do you have any idea how often 220SE automatics were bought for domestic consumption? My impression was that in the ‘60s cars in Europe (at least below the level of, say, the 300) were almost always sticks. Automatics, like A/C, were largely installed on cars bound for the good old US of A.

fintail

I wouldn't be surprised if the take rate for automatic on the 220SE was at least 50% here, and significant in Europe too. I have never seen data, but I have seen numerous automatic cars in person. The "Automatic" badge is found on late run 1965 model year cars, and maybe some late 1964 registered cars - an automatic was a prestige thing in Europe, and people wanted to show it off - especially on a higher model FI car like the SE. Automatic cars were probably a higher percentage of North American market cars than in Europe, but they aren't too rare. AC was dealer-installed, and I suspect seldom-seen on Euro cars.

bhill2 said:

Fin, one thing that the poster said is that it may have been brought in from Germany. Do you have any idea how often 220SE automatics were bought for domestic consumption? My impression was that in the ‘60s cars in Europe (at least below the level of, say, the 300) were almost always sticks. Automatics, like A/C, were largely installed on cars bound for the good old US of A.

bhill2

fintail said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the take rate for automatic on the 220SE was at least 50% here, and significant in Europe too. I have never seen data, but I have seen numerous automatic cars in person. The "Automatic" badge is found on late run 1965 model year cars, and maybe some late 1964 registered cars - an automatic was a prestige thing in Europe, and people wanted to show it off - especially on a higher model FI car like the SE. Automatic cars were probably a higher percentage of North American market cars than in Europe, but they aren't too rare. AC was dealer-installed, and I suspect seldom-seen on Euro cars.

bhill2 said:

Fin, one thing that the poster said is that it may have been brought in from Germany. Do you have any idea how often 220SE automatics were bought for domestic consumption? My impression was that in the ‘60s cars in Europe (at least below the level of, say, the 300) were almost always sticks. Automatics, like A/C, were largely installed on cars bound for the good old US of A.

OK, thanks. I suspect the secret to being happy with the performance of an automatic with a +/- 2 liter engine depends on how well the the transmission is designed to work with the engine. Unfortunately my experience with this combination was in my parents’ ‘68 Volvo 144 automatic. That thing was just a crying shame; a drag race with a 190D would have ended in a dead-heat. However, I always thought the problem was that the transmission was a Borg-Warner and it simply didn’t speak the same language as the 1.8 liter dual carb engine. My sister had the same car with a stick and they were two different animals.

ab348

bhill2 said:

OK, thanks. I suspect the secret to being happy with the performance of an automatic with a +/- 2 liter engine depends on how well the the transmission is designed to work with the engine. Unfortunately my experience with this combination was in my parents’ ‘68 Volvo 144 automatic. That thing was just a crying shame; a drag race with a 190D would have ended in a dead-heat. However, I always thought the problem was that the transmission was a Borg-Warner and it simply didn’t speak the same language as the 1.8 liter dual carb engine. My sister had the same car with a stick and they were two different animals.

Huh, we had that exact same car with the automatic and it was indeed a slug. I think that B-W automatic was notorious for being unresponsive and soaking up a lot of HP.

fintail

I think for fintails, the transmission is OK. It upshifts a little early and some shifts can be harsh, but it is durable. The auto in fintails, without a torque converter, was the first in-house unit made by MB - prior automatics in Adenauers were Borg-Warner units, and there was also the Hydrak semi-automatic for a few years until around 1961.

I don't find much fun with a manual in the traffic where I live, so I don't mind that my car is an auto. First generation fintails are also all column shift, all 4-speed.

bhill2 said:

OK, thanks. I suspect the secret to being happy with the performance of an automatic with a +/- 2 liter engine depends on how well the the transmission is designed to work with the engine. Unfortunately my experience with this combination was in my parents’ ‘68 Volvo 144 automatic. That thing was just a crying shame; a drag race with a 190D would have ended in a dead-heat. However, I always thought the problem was that the transmission was a Borg-Warner and it simply didn’t speak the same language as the 1.8 liter dual carb engine. My sister had the same car with a stick and they were two different animals.

Mr_Shiftright

bhill2 said:

fintail said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the take rate for automatic on the 220SE was at least 50% here, and significant in Europe too. I have never seen data, but I have seen numerous automatic cars in person. The "Automatic" badge is found on late run 1965 model year cars, and maybe some late 1964 registered cars - an automatic was a prestige thing in Europe, and people wanted to show it off - especially on a higher model FI car like the SE. Automatic cars were probably a higher percentage of North American market cars than in Europe, but they aren't too rare. AC was dealer-installed, and I suspect seldom-seen on Euro cars.

bhill2 said:

Fin, one thing that the poster said is that it may have been brought in from Germany. Do you have any idea how often 220SE automatics were bought for domestic consumption? My impression was that in the ‘60s cars in Europe (at least below the level of, say, the 300) were almost always sticks. Automatics, like A/C, were largely installed on cars bound for the good old US of A.

OK, thanks. I suspect the secret to being happy with the performance of an automatic with a +/- 2 liter engine depends on how well the the transmission is designed to work with the engine. Unfortunately my experience with this combination was in my parents’ ‘68 Volvo 144 automatic. That thing was just a crying shame; a drag race with a 190D would have ended in a dead-heat. However, I always thought the problem was that the transmission was a Borg-Warner and it simply didn’t speak the same language as the 1.8 liter dual carb engine. My sister had the same car with a stick and they were two different animals.

Oh, I think that Volvo had the piglet Borg-Warner unit. The MB unit of the day was much crisper and shifts were extremely firm. American drivers constantly complained about MB transmissions being too "rough" on shifts--remember, they were weaned on Dynaflows.

bhill2

fintail said:

I think for fintails, the transmission is OK. It upshifts a little early and some shifts can be harsh, but it is durable. The auto in fintails, without a torque converter, was the first in-house unit made by MB - prior automatics in Adenauers were Borg-Warner units, and there was also the Hydrak semi-automatic for a few years until around 1961.

I don't find much fun with a manual in the traffic where I live, so I don't mind that my car is an auto. First generation fintails are also all column shift, all 4-speed.

bhill2 said:

OK, thanks. I suspect the secret to being happy with the performance of an automatic with a +/- 2 liter engine depends on how well the the transmission is designed to work with the engine. Unfortunately my experience with this combination was in my parents’ ‘68 Volvo 144 automatic. That thing was just a crying shame; a drag race with a 190D would have ended in a dead-heat. However, I always thought the problem was that the transmission was a Borg-Warner and it simply didn’t speak the same language as the 1.8 liter dual carb engine. My sister had the same car with a stick and they were two different animals.

I suspect the lack of a torque converter is a major help. In a car like my parents’ Volvo the torque converter converted the torque (which that engine didn’t have a lot of, especially at low revs) into something else entirely. Anyone who ever drove with an old one-speed like the early Powerglide can tell you how effectively a torque converter can do that.

bhill2

Oh, and Fin, I hear you talking about a manual in traffic. I slogged back and forth between LA and points east for a couple of years in a diesel Rabbit. Not good times.

isellhondas

I once delivered chicken for Chicken Delight. We used early 60's Falcons. Most were sticks with the 170 engines but we had one that was a 144 CID with automatic! I think I could have outran it in a 50 yard dash!

bhill2

isellhondas said:

I once delivered chicken for Chicken Delight. We used early 60's Falcons. Most were sticks with the 170 engines but we had one that was a 144 CID with automatic! I think I could have outran it in a 50 yard dash!

OMG. I drove one of those to college for a couple of years (handed down to me when my sister got out of college. It had been handed down to her by my parents for the same purpose. They had bought another car). I genuinely believe that the diesel Rabbit I spoke about above would out-accelerate it. Of course, the Rabbit was a stick. I saw one with an automatic in the showroom once. I would guess they had to push to get it up the ramp to get it in.

fintail

I wonder if it also helps cars like the fintail - a 2.2L I6 is not going to be torquey either. No torque to convert, pretty much

If I lived in a flatter area with less traffic, a manual could be fun, but in the Seattle area, I just don't see the appeal. Lots of hills and gridlock.

bhill2 said:

I suspect the lack of a torque converter is a major help. In a car like my parents’ Volvo the torque converter converted the torque (which that engine didn’t have a lot of, especially at low revs) into something else entirely. Anyone who ever drove with an old one-speed like the early Powerglide can tell you how effectively a torque converter can do that.

bhill2

fintail said:

I wonder if it also helps cars like the fintail - a 2.2L I6 is not going to be torquey either. No torque to convert, pretty much

If I lived in a flatter area with less traffic, a manual could be fun, but in the Seattle area, I just don't see the appeal. Lots of hills and gridlock.

bhill2 said:

I suspect the lack of a torque converter is a major help. In a car like my parents’ Volvo the torque converter converted the torque (which that engine didn’t have a lot of, especially at low revs) into something else entirely. Anyone who ever drove with an old one-speed like the early Powerglide can tell you how effectively a torque converter can do that.

I would say it’s largely the traffic. In the ‘70s I drove sticks in Seattle, and it wasn’t bad because you could usually keep moving pretty well (although stoplights and stop signs at the tops of hills certainly taught you clutch-handbrake coordination). Doing it now, when you are in stop-and-go traffic, would indeed bite the big one.

gsemike

After Christmas Deals - listings may be thin this week.

https://newyork.craigslist.org/wch/cto/d/1989-camaro-rs/6440393635.html Just because I used to have one. By 1994 and 50k, it had it's share of problems. Can't imagine what keeping it together now would be like

https://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/cto/d/69-deserter-dune-buggy/6440384120.html Bona fide dune buggy. Assume it's based on a Beetle. Would love more details

https://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/cto/d/1975-coupe-deville/6412107690.html 75 CCD. Rare to seem them this well preserved anymore. A friend had one back one. Massive 2 door car

https://newyork.craigslist.org/que/cto/d/1981-fiat-spider-convertible/6410840440.html Fiat Spyder. Looks nice from 10 feet away, but he doesn't want much

https://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/cto/d/1989-toyota-mr2-top/6440334166.html MR2 What's with the red wheels on one side and green on the other? And an automatic????

https://newyork.craigslist.org/que/cto/d/1989-porsche-944s-turbo-looks/6440313624.html Turbo 944. Looks nice but is this the right money? I thought that these were the cheap Porsches

https://newyork.craigslist.org/que/cto/d/1980-camaro-zstick-shifthard/6413056745.html You don't see a big block and 4 speed in an 80 Z28 everyday

https://newyork.craigslist.org/brx/cto/d/1969-chevy-nova-ss-for-sale/6433082875.html I like this as a clean and mean resto mod

https://newyork.craigslist.org/wch/cto/d/1982-toyota-corolla-wagon-5/6439820786.html 5 speed corolla wagon. Kind of a unicorn these days.

Well, another year comes and goes. I wish you all happy holidays and thanks for sharing your knowledge through the year Cheers everyone

qbrozen

Turbo 944s have been going up for a while now.

Corolla is kinda neat, other than those wheels and blacked out roof.

texases

That 944 turbo: "425 Horse-Power to the Wheels, Engine Serviced, Fine Tuned, through Lindsey-Racing.
Boost Enhanced!"

Uh-oh....the pin has been pulled on that grenade.

fintail

I vote for the Caddy and the dune buggy.

Corolla would be cool stock, but is a bit mad tyte JDM bro for my tastes, make those fender mirrors on a US spec car go away.

stickguy

Kinda like the 80 camaro.

Funny. Fiat guy thinks his stick is an AT, and 89 camaro thinks his AT is a stick.

Mr_Shiftright

qbrozen said:

Turbo 944s have been going up for a while now.

Corolla is kinda neat, other than those wheels and blacked out roof.

Turbo 944s have always been the cream of the crop with 944s. Properly set up, and in the hands of an excellent driver, a 944 will give a modern 911 fits on a track.

I can only hope that 400+ HP 944 motor has been suitably armored internally. Getting huge HP out of a motor is easy. Keeping it from blowing up is difficult. I think Engine Masters slapped a turbo and nitrous on an old Chevy 350 crate motor and got close to 700 HP out of it! (They expected it to blow up on the dyno, but it didn't).

The one featured is certainly overpriced at $32K. I presume he's trying to make back the pile of gold he spent on mods. Good luck with that. My estimate? $20K.

ab348

Oh man, I love that Coupe de Ville, not to drive it because it would be a pain a lot of the time, but that really should be in a museum or collection for preservation.

@gsemike thank you for doing this and for the well-wishes, all the best to you.

explorerx4

Went to the Star Wars movie yesterday. The view out the windshield of the Cadillac looked like the view from the bridge of the Dreadnaught space ship.

fintail

Spent a few minutes looking at Japanese offerings, always fun if not a bit too tempting:

This can be imported next year - wacky price, but the car looks amazing, and this is the exact color combo I want for one of these.

Name my price - I can import this now, these are quite rare conversions.

Tasty early W126 Love the colors and traditional woolcloth velour.

And there's a ton more, the site is a time consumer.

stickguy

I like the E500. unique. and got a laugh out of the description of the SEL: easily drive,left handle,smoking car

I assume the smoking reference is related to passengers, not the engine.

texases

Why import the E500? They're available here (if hard to find). And why bother with the 380SEL? That's kind of the weak engine for those with V8s, right?

Mr_Shiftright

I suspect the Japanese take better care of their cars than most Americans, and many older Benz sedans fall on very hard times here in the states due to their low selling price--the owners can't afford to give them proper maintenance.

fintail

Find another blue 500E/E500 on the market. The only issue is the price.

Same thing for the W126, find another pristine China Blue on blue velour example. Not the best engine, but it is almost at the zenith of malaise, just tend to the timing chain and deal with it.

Moot anyway, not like I am actually going to import one

And yeah, the translations are a little funny. I like "relaxable" and "vivid color".

fintail

Funny thing, for more recent cars, high end imports from Japan sometimes have a bad rep, mostly for dubious maintenance and a lack of documentation. One will see "not a Japan import" in an ad listing from Oz or UK, or even Canada with their more logical import laws. A lot of used Japan market cars now end up in Russia.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I suspect the Japanese take better care of their cars than most Americans, and many older Benz sedans fall on very hard times here in the states due to their low selling price--the owners can't afford to give them proper maintenance.

Mr_Shiftright

Making the Japanese are ditching all their clunkers? I have heard that their vehicle inspection program (shaken) is pretty strict.

fintail

That's exactly it. Even a minor flaw fails inspection, many Japanese consumers shun used cars even if they are nice, so depreciation is hilarious - you'll do better exporting it.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Making the Japanese are ditching all their clunkers? I have heard that their vehicle inspection program (shaken) is pretty strict.

ab348

The price on that E500 is insane.

Cars of this type at least seem to get very little use over there if the mileage numbers are to be believed.

I wonder what a "welfare car" is?

I like that big "smoking car" Benz conversion. No doubt some titan of 1990s Japanese industry was driven in the back.

I wonder if MBUSA gave the choice, how many vehicles would get a cloth interior instead of Tex.

fintail

I think the last cloth MB offered here was the C-class hatch of the early 2000s.

Back in the day, there were at least 2 grades of cloth - a simple flat cloth, and a fancy wool velour, like in that W126. The woolcloth was the same price as leather, and per period sales literature, could be ordered as a no-cost option in the US market, but I have never seen a US spec car with it. I've read the woolcloth is very expensive to replace, and was phased out in the 90s. I think it hails from the days when leather was seen as a more industrial material, and cloth was luxurious, like old limos where the chauffeur area was leather, and the rear seats cloth. Fancy cloth is also a traditional choice in such cars for the Japanese market (see inside an old Century or President), so a lot of the cars sold new there seem to have it.

Mr_Shiftright

texases said:

Why import the E500? They're available here (if hard to find). And why bother with the 380SEL? That's kind of the weak engine for those with V8s, right?

You should be able to buy that kinda rare 500E here in the U.S. for $15K-$20K in very nice shape.

qbrozen

Here you go. Low mileage v8 wagon. A mere $44k.
http://www.goo-net-exchange.com/usedcars/MERCEDES_BENZ/MEDIUM_CLASS/700900002420130719005/index.html

qbrozen

would love to be able to import this one.
http://www.goo-net-exchange.com/usedcars/ALFA_ROMEO/ALFA_147/700957202430171228002/index.html