Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

jpp75

Michaell said:

@fintail - I'd love to have that '73 220 - something to use like you do with your fintail.

That's really cool. You could park it in my extra space. :laughing:

Michaell

jpp5862 said:

Michaell said:

@fintail - I'd love to have that '73 220 - something to use like you do with your fintail.

That's really cool. You could park it in my extra space. :laughing:

Oh, man. That is tempting, since I've got no room at my house.

Now, to convince the wife that I want to spend $6K on a 40+ year old MB and drive it back to CO. Where the altitude will habitually mess with the carb settings and it will never run right.

Sigh.

jpp75

Michaell said:

Oh, man. That is tempting, since I've got no room at my house.

Now, to convince the wife that I want to spend $6K on a 40+ year old MB and drive it back to CO. Where the altitude will habitually mess with the carb settings and it will never run right.

Sigh.

So what exactly is the problem here?

Mr_Shiftright

Michaell said:

@fintail - I'd love to have that '73 220 - something to use like you do with your fintail.

This car is so slow it would frighten you, really. But they are great little cars. Too bad it's an automatic.

ab348

That 300SD is handsome with nice colors. Seems odd to drop $20K on all that work and sell it for $3995 asking shortly thereafter though. A red flag.

The 200SX is a long-forgotten relic of Nissan's atomic cockroach styling era. Can't recall the last time I saw one of those. A better example is probably worth preserving, assuming any still exist.

Of the Detroit iron featured, I like that Dodge station wagon and the Madman Muntz Lincoln. Note the video player and dashboard TV on the latter.

Mr_Shiftright

That's what an old 300SD is worth in "good driver" condition. That's the market. What you spent on it....the market doesn't much care, because every car needs an engine, or door locks, or a heater, or whatever else you spent money on. Repairs are rarely "valued added" items, is what I mean to say.

texases

I'd pass on the Lincoln, I'd want the LSC version.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

@fintail - I'd love to have that '73 220 - something to use like you do with your fintail.

This car is so slow it would frighten you, really. But they are great little cars. Too bad it's an automatic.

You're kidding, right?

My folks owned a '72 220D when I was in HS - you'd need a sundial to measure 0-60.

I would think the gas version would be a little better.

omarman

Michaell said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

@fintail - I'd love to have that '73 220 - something to use like you do with your fintail.

This car is so slow it would frighten you, really. But they are great little cars. Too bad it's an automatic.

You're kidding, right?

My folks owned a '72 220D when I was in HS - you'd need a sundial to measure 0-60.

I would think the gas version would be a little better.

You're right. The gas version is probably a little better than the diesel. Until you drive it home to Colorado and then you find all those painful HS memories slowly returning.

fintail

I think the W115 220 wouldn't be too bad in town - it only puts out about 100hp (old hp, and it is a 4, not an I6 like older 220s), but it is not too heavy of a car. At altitude, all bets are off.

I think that example a nice looking car, many of them were neglected and discarded. That was the base model MB in the early 70s. You'd want to buy one in good shape like that rather than fix up a heap.

And Shifty is right about the W140 - a car is assumed to have a working powertrain and a heater, anything you put into it to get those working generally won't do much to help the value. Even if it had an engine built by a known shop with warranty, it would only do so much.

explorerx4

The rest of the story was way more interesting than the Lincoln.

Michaell

omarman said:

Michaell said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

@fintail - I'd love to have that '73 220 - something to use like you do with your fintail.

This car is so slow it would frighten you, really. But they are great little cars. Too bad it's an automatic.

You're kidding, right?

My folks owned a '72 220D when I was in HS - you'd need a sundial to measure 0-60.

I would think the gas version would be a little better.

You're right. The gas version is probably a little better than the diesel. Until you drive it home to Colorado and then you find all those painful HS memories slowly returning.

They were painful - literally. The throttle spring on that 220D was the stiffest I ever encountered. And, no cruise control.

I remember taking a family trip from SoCal to Sacramento in that car - Interstate 5 at 55 MPH with no cruise and a throttle that did not want to be depressed. My leg hurt after a few hours of that.

I wouldn't want this as some sort of car to drive at speed. Just a nice classic to take to Cars & Coffee each month, the occasional MB meetup and just drive it to enjoy.

texases

So would the only US-spec 114/115 gasser with fuel injection be the 280E, 1972+?

fintail

For sedans, yes. There was also a 250CE (hardtop coupe), but I don't recall if it was sold here - I don't think it was. We did get the 280CE.

W114/115 distinction is a little unusual - W114 is 6cyl cars, W115 4cyl and diesel.

texases said:

So would the only US-spec 114/115 gasser with fuel injection be the 280E, 1972+?

texases

OK, I got it. So I'd be looking for a '72 280E. I'd have to have both the 6 and the fuel injection, and '72 would have less of the pollution controls and no messed up bumpers, I'd guess.

fintail

I am not sure if those were sold here that early, or if many made it over at all. I have seen W114 280CE and 280 sedan, but I don't have any memory of seeing a fuel injected sedan. I have seen numerous W123 280E.

texases said:

OK, I got it. So I'd be looking for a '72 280E. I'd have to have both the 6 and the fuel injection, and '72 would have less of the pollution controls and no messed up bumpers, I'd guess.

texases

Now you've gone and burst my imaginary bubble!

Mr_Shiftright

Michaell said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Michaell said:

@fintail - I'd love to have that '73 220 - something to use like you do with your fintail.

This car is so slow it would frighten you, really. But they are great little cars. Too bad it's an automatic.

You're kidding, right?

My folks owned a '72 220D when I was in HS - you'd need a sundial to measure 0-60.

I would think the gas version would be a little better.

The 220 gas engine with a stickshift would be the one to get in that model. They are unicorns, but they'll run a long long time and are fairly simple to maintain by Benz standards.

Mr_Shiftright

texases said:

So would the only US-spec 114/115 gasser with fuel injection be the 280E, 1972+?

You generally want to stay away from mid-70s Benzes. This was a transition time, and it's not pretty.

tjc78

texases said:

I'd pass on the Lincoln, I'd want the LSC version.

In 84 the LSC still only had a CFI 302 making 140 hp. 86 was 200hp and finally in 88 did it share the 225 HO version from the Mustang.

texases

1988+ it is, then.

fintail

Yeah, the engine in a W114 280E isn't the same as in a W108/W111 280SE. I wouldn't call it bad, but it isn't the classic old I6.

I have some NADA and KBB guides from 1976. No listing for 280E.

Mr_Shiftright

I have data for a 260E --- Fair condition $1,150 Good $2,400 Excellent $4,800 --that's a #2 car, not a #1.

texases

Today's WSJ has an article on a '59 220 S, owned by the son of the original purchaser. Not enough car pics, of course!

Mr_Shiftright

Those are such well-built little jewels. If you knew what you were doing, you could run that car the rest of your life.

texases

Mr_Shiftright said:

Those are such well-built little jewels. If you knew what you were doing, you could run that car the rest of your life.

That was the exact stated goal of the dad who bought it - keep it forever. He did....

fintail

260E is a W124, a modern car compared to a W114/115. 260E would be MY 1987-90, and I have seen more than one with a 5-speed, kind of unusual to imagine today.

The MBCA magazine "The Star" often features one owner or family heirloom type cars. This month has an unrestored Adenauer convertible in the same family since 1957.

texases

I wondered about the 260E - why get that instead of the 300E? Was it that much cheaper?

fintail

A quick check shows a 260E about 5K less than a 300E (37K vs 42K), base, in 1988. It had about 20 less hp, I think. I don't think they sold well - it later became the 300E 2.6, something which confused people and was a harbinger to the sometimes meaningless numeric designations seen today.

andres3

Anyone want an old high-mileage Jetta?

Not much of an effort to sell by the seller:

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=92119&referrer=/cars-for-sale/searchresults.xhtml?zip=92119&startYear=1981&sortBy=derivedpriceDESC&firstRecord=0&endYear=1994&modelCodeList=JET&makeCodeList=VOLKS&searchRadius=25&startYear=1981&numRecords=25&firstRecord=0&endYear=1994&modelCodeList=JET&makeCodeList=VOLKS&searchRadius=25&listingId=475344850

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

texases said:

So would the only US-spec 114/115 gasser with fuel injection be the 280E, 1972+?

You generally want to stay away from mid-70s Benzes. This was a transition time, and it's not pretty.

Don't stop with Mercedes of that era! Sad years for a lot of cars!

isellhondas

For some STRANGE reason, I like this car! Low miles and it's the top of the line with the stainless roof.

It's a 1981 which means it has the one year only 4-6-8 engine which is better than the miserable HT 4100's that came the next year. I remember a lot of shops would clip some wire that made them run only on 8 cylinders.

Anyone?

https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/d/1981-cadillac-eldorado-for/6472001856.html

omarman

isellhondas said:

For some STRANGE reason, I like this car! Low miles and it's the top of the line with the stainless roof.

It's a 1981 which means it has the one year only 4-6-8 engine which is better than the miserable HT 4100's that came the next year. I remember a lot of shops would clip some wire that made them run only on 8 cylinders.

Anyone?

https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/d/1981-cadillac-eldorado-for/6472001856.html

If it runs, drives, stops and is not stolen then it looks like a cheap and fun beater.
But I'm not really sure what the seller has for sale.
I mean those pics don't show either a 1991 Eldorado nor a 1981 Eldorado convertible.

omarman

I'm not awake at this hour to correct Craigslist seller copy errors, but, since I am awake...

This is not a Grand Torino for sale at 9 Grand. I think that in the first model year of the Ford Elite, it was called the Gran Torino Elite.

And this car is also not "a replica of the infamous Grand Torino seen in the very popular "Starsky & Hutch" TV series." The paint job is similar but wrong car, wheels, and what's with that "infamous" tag?

I had an interesting talk with a couple EMT's from Dayton today and to me their ambulance was a closer "relative" to the original Starsky and Hutch car than this.

qbrozen

omarman said:

For some STRANGE reason, I like this car! Low miles and it's the top of the line with the stainless roof. It's a 1981 which means it has the one year only 4-6-8 engine which is better than the miserable HT 4100's that came the next year. I remember a lot of shops would clip some wire that made them run only on 8 cylinders. Anyone? https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/d/1981-cadillac-eldorado-for/6472001856.html

If it runs, drives, stops and is not stolen then it looks like a cheap and fun beater. But I'm not really sure what the seller has for sale. I mean those pics don't show either a 1991 Eldorado nor a 1981 Eldorado convertible.

Looks like an '81 to me. Not a vert of course, but I see no mention of vert in the ad. What am I missing?

ab348

qbrozen said:

Looks like an '81 to me. Not a vert of course, but I see no mention of vert in the ad. What am I missing?

It says it's a convertible over in the sidebar to the right, under the map. Clearly it isn't, so someone probably just checked an incorrect box when posting the ad.

qbrozen

Ah, but then a box marked coupe. Ah well, at least it is obvious what it is.

fintail

The white Eldo does look quite presentable, although I suspect it sat outside for a long time, given the build up of
grime on the badging. However, I am a little suspicious - why no plates, in a place where plates stay with the car? It appears to have an eastern WA AAA sticker. For the money, and if you are into that kind of thing, probably worth a gamble.

fintail

Yep that's an Elite, both via the opera window and the badging on the front quarter panel. The seller appears to be an optimist.

omarman said:

I'm not awake at this hour to correct Craigslist seller copy errors, but, since I am awake...

This is not a Grand Torino for sale at 9 Grand. I think that in the first model year of the Ford Elite, it was called the Gran Torino
Elite.

fintail

The diesels are OK (although slow, all non-turbo), but the gassers can have issues, I think MY 75-77 are especially known for it. Emissions issues and quite thirsty, maybe not a good mix.

isellhondas said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

texases said:

So would the only US-spec 114/115 gasser with fuel injection be the 280E, 1972+?

You generally want to stay away from mid-70s Benzes. This was a transition time, and it's not pretty.

Don't stop with Mercedes of that era! Sad years for a lot of cars!

Michaell

fintail said:

The diesels are OK (although slow, all non-turbo), but the gassers can have issues, I think MY 75-77 are especially known for it. Emissions issues and quite thirsty, maybe not a good mix.

isellhondas said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

texases said:

So would the only US-spec 114/115 gasser with fuel injection be the 280E, 1972+?

You generally want to stay away from mid-70s Benzes. This was a transition time, and it's not pretty.

Don't stop with Mercedes of that era! Sad years for a lot of cars!

You're killing me. I would love to pick up a clean W123 from that era to have as a fun car.

Michaell

fintail said:

The diesels are OK (although slow, all non-turbo), but the gassers can have issues, I think MY 75-77 are especially known for it. Emissions issues and quite thirsty, maybe not a good mix.

isellhondas said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

texases said:

So would the only US-spec 114/115 gasser with fuel injection be the 280E, 1972+?

You generally want to stay away from mid-70s Benzes. This was a transition time, and it's not pretty.

Don't stop with Mercedes of that era! Sad years for a lot of cars!

You're killing me. I would love to pick up a clean W123 from that era to have as a fun car.

fintail

If it has been cared for, they are good cars. Of course, with something of this age, that can be a big "if". Be very leery of waste oil conversions and hippie cars. You want the gem owned by a old guy who is a MBCA member and is thinning out his herd. 1981+ 300Ds are probably the best pick (I think 1983 is viewed as the best year) due to being turbo, 240D automatic will be hilariously slow.

I have a friend with a 240D manual - even with a stick, the fintail is like a Veyron in comparison.

Michaell said:

You're killing me. I would love to pick up a clean W123 from that era to have as a fun car.

Mr_Shiftright

andres3 said:

Anyone want an old high-mileage Jetta?

Not much of an effort to sell by the seller:

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=92119&referrer=/cars-for-sale/searchresults.xhtml?zip=92119&startYear=1981&sortBy=derivedpriceDESC&firstRecord=0&endYear=1994&modelCodeList=JET&makeCodeList=VOLKS&searchRadius=25&startYear=1981&numRecords=25&firstRecord=0&endYear=1994&modelCodeList=JET&makeCodeList=VOLKS&searchRadius=25&listingId=475344850

I presume that hood is welded to stay open, for convenience? I have to admire the owner's perseverance though, to get to 192K.

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

If it has been cared for, they are good cars. Of course, with something of this age, that can be a big "if". Be very leery of waste oil conversions and hippie cars. You want the gem owned by a old guy who is a MBCA member and is thinning out his herd. 1981+ 300Ds are probably the best pick (I think 1983 is viewed as the best year) due to being turbo, 240D automatic will be hilariously slow.

I have a friend with a 240D manual - even with a stick, the fintail is like a Veyron in comparison.

Michaell said:

You're killing me. I would love to pick up a clean W123 from that era to have as a fun car.

My W123 diesel was a fantastic car. It was slow, though. One time, I parked with the nose uphill right near the top of Independence Pass outside Aspen. (12,000 feet). I got in the car, put it in drive and floored it---and it simply didn't go anywhere. It couldn't move. I had to roll backwards, make a u-turn, go downhill, make another u-turn, and charge the top of the pass.

My friend Jay Lamm tells a similar story about his W123 wagon. He was crossing the Richmond Bridge in SF, in the right lane, and came upon some construction. He didn't have time to swerve into the middle lane, so he stopped and waited for a clear shot into the high-speed traffic whizzing past him. He knew that with such poor acceleration, he'd need a large opening. Apparently he got trapped for what seemed like 15 minutes, not daring to stick his nose out for fear of being rear-ended. He sold the car soon after and bought a Porsche 996.

texases

I followed a 240D onto the freeway, quickly passed him (he was doing maybe 40). Four miles later, here he came, he had gotten it up to 75 and passed me, smoking all the way!

Mr_Shiftright

Once you get 'em rolling, they're okay, but a steep and long incline will sink you for sure. You could manage a 240D in the modern world if you were a highly anticipatory type of driver.

fintail

That's one thing about those cars - top speed may be 75, but they will do it all day with no harm done.

Michaell

fintail said:

That's one thing about those cars - top speed may be 75, but they will do it all day with no harm done.

My folks' 220D was like that, too. On that trip to Sacramento, it felt stable and planted at 65. I really liked that car - my mother, OTOH, hated it.

fintail

Acceleration and smoke might be issues with some of those cars. Cars like a fintail or ponton can get away with a bit of slowness or fumes, as they look old, are not seen every day, and they charm people - the cars seem to be treated with a little respect or deference. But I think a 123 doesn't have the same effect on people, and it might be met with ire on an on-ramp etc.

I think period German cars in general were built to travel for long periods at close to their top speed (which may not be extremely fast), and even a slow diesel can at least keep up with trucks for hours on end. It'll just take a while to get there - a 220D automatic is probably no faster than around 25-30 seconds 0-60.