Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

fintail said:

He puts at a few thousand miles a year on it at least - many local road trips in it. Affluent retired guy has plenty of time and ability to maintain, but I haven't heard of catastrophic issues - it's a fixture at every meet. It is also a very photogenic car, a factory red car with wide whites. He did well. He has a lot of fun, and tripled his money. Not my dream car , probably slower than my 220SE.

MB salesman I bought from has a 72-73 911S, he bought it as a cosmetic restoration about 20 years ago, for I think around 15K. Car still looks fine and has no issues. I think he's fared well, too.

Were early targas shunned for a long time? High mileage doesn't really kill Porsche values, does it? Smart to hold on to something like that, from back in the day from when targas were just a little upmarket instead of 100K+ machines for the few.

Mr_Shiftright said:

A 190SL with no issues? Lucky fellow there. Maybe he doesn't use it much? Prices in 2003 for those ran about $30K--$50K for decent, sound, attractive cars, so he bought it right. Not really that pleasant a car to drive. I think you'd like your fintail better.

Talk about a good buy in a classic car. I looked at a 1968 Porsche 911 "S" soft-window targa, still owned by the original owner! So he's sitting on close to $200K for that car...AND he drove it all the time---still does. It has lots of miles--but the engine has been rebuilt and the car has been painted and re-upholstered. He's 85, and not too scary behind the wheel.

Those early Porsches are very rugged cars, and can rack up lots of miles with a high degree of reliability. Like all unibodies from Germany in those days, the enemy is rust. Targas in general are a pain, They squeak, leak and compromise chassis rigigity.

I've seen some creative engine swaps on the 190SL, because it's a weak engine prone to problems---including a Volvo B18, and a GM V-6. I've read about, and seen photos of a 190SL body stretched a bit and then put onto a complete 2004 SL600 chassis and drivetrain. That's pretty nuts. It''s called "The Mercedes Bent".

Clever, hah? No, I didn't think so either.

fintail

190SL custom sounds like a quick way to burn 6 figures and get almost nothing back if you ever sell. One thing about those cars, the proportions are right, and they don't take well to modification.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Those early Porsches are very rugged cars, and can rack up lots of miles with a high degree of reliability. Like all unibodies from Germany in those days, the enemy is rust. Targas in general are a pain, They squeak, leak and compromise chassis rigigity.

I've seen some creative engine swaps on the 190SL, because it's a weak engine prone to problems---including a Volvo B18, and a GM V-6. I've read about, and seen photos of a 190SL body stretched a bit and then put onto a complete 2004 SL600 chassis and drivetrain. That's pretty nuts. It''s called "The Mercedes Bent".

Clever, hah? No, I didn't think so either.

Mr_Shiftright

Probably the thing that disappointed most buyers of the time was that the 190SL committed the offense of looking much faster than it actually was. Kind of similar to the first Pontiac Fieros, the Delorean.

The car was very popular among women, however. Given how hard it was to shift smoothly, and that it was nose-heavy, women buyers of the day were undoubtedly enthusiastic drivers.

I remember meeting one woman owner of a 190SL who received the car as a present for her 16th birthday while she and her American parents were living in Paris. She still has the car! Another client just sold hers--she bought it new, drove it every day until 1971, then parked it in one of her garages because it was becoming troublesome. And there it sat, keys still in the ignition, until last year. Never started in 46 years. It went to Germany for restoration.

omarman

Import ran when parked,
in 1971.
Export! Home again.

A lot of things kind of sputtered and became troublesome in 1971.
I think I had all of these singles on a K-Tel album back then:

fintail

Shipping a car back to Germany is a labor of love, as there are competent restoration shops (including MB itself) in the US. If I won a powerball or something, I am not sure if I would do similar with the fintail.

Mr_Shiftright

I think it was going to Germany anyway, and was restored in the process. For German collectors, rust-free, unmolested cars are desirable. Maybe they ship 'em to eastern Europe to be worked on.

fintail

Germany has numerous MB specialist restoration shops, including MB itself - if money is no object (and time too, no doubt), that's where you go. Going east is for those who are value-conscious and might not value the provenance of a high end shop.

Mr_Shiftright

Sure, if you're going to drive it, why spend 2X the money to get it looking nice? But if you are into trucking it in air-cushioned closed haulers to flower-decked lawns, where people sipping wine discuss whether Von Stuck or Fangilio drove it in the 1951 Latvian Grand Prix at Sigulda, then yeah, you can get as fussy as you please.

fintail

I'd want it to be very accurate. I know what finishes should be like on a fintail, and if I was sending my car out to effectively be brand new, I'd pay more to have it correct. For a driver that might have some flaws, I can have that done at home much faster and cheaper than shipping it to the wild east.

It also might depend on the car. Someone restoring a 540K or alloy body gullwing is probably going to be fussier than someone with a Ponton sedan. I guess it depends on where you live.

Mr_Shiftright

Being rich doesn't mean you aren't a cheapskate. Probably the worst mistake I see in the USA is sending a vintage European car to a hot rod shop for restoration. They have the skills, but not the knowledge--and they get a lot of things wrong.

fintail

Cheapskate or simply ignorant, I suppose - money and knowledge aren't always in positive correlation, along with money and sense, etc.

texases

This must be the world record for a 262c, $216,000!!:
https://jalopnik.com/david-bowie-owned-this-rad-volvo-262c-bertone-coupe-and-1821742739

fintail

The source has some good pics, too

That's some tasty celebrity provenance. Also never fails to amuse me how Euro lights make a car look much newer, even an odd piece of 70s design like that.

ab348

I really liked this Fiat Dino 2400 coupe, but the auction price of $68,400 was breathtaking:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-fiat-dino/

stickguy

That did look like a really nice one though.

ab348

It really did but even at that there were a few niggles and stuff that didn't work, like the heater. I suppose with a 50 year old Fiat that sort of thing must be expected.

I did like the discussion in the comments about the "Dinoplex" ignition system - such a great name.

texases

ab348 said:

It really did but even at that there were a few niggles and stuff that didn't work, like the heater. I suppose with a 50 year old Fiat that sort of thing must be expected.

I did like the discussion in the comments about the "Dinoplex" ignition system - such a great name.

Sounds like the drive-in where Fred and Wilma took the family!

Mr_Shiftright

ab348 said:

I really liked this Fiat Dino 2400 coupe, but the auction price of $68,400 was breathtaking:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-fiat-dino/

That's spot-on market. Current auction value median is $63,000, so if you add 10% or so for "auction fever", I'd say the car was well sold and well bought at that price. The 2400 engine always brings a stronger price than you'd think, compared to the earlier Fiat Dino.

Mr_Shiftright

texases said:

This must be the world record for a 262c, $216,000!!:
https://jalopnik.com/david-bowie-owned-this-rad-volvo-262c-bertone-coupe-and-1821742739

Yeah, but it's DAVID BOWIE!! This guy was a monster talent in the world of rock when he first hit the scene. Really quite the genius. So his ownership gave the actual market value a slight nudge of about $210,000 to a generally big nothingburger of a car.

fintail

I think the Bowie Volvo maybe wasn't the most insane price. It's a lot of money, but these are heady times, and his name is now a legend.

I also like that he had such an ordinary car, no doubt for trying to blend in when he wanted to get away.

andres3

Okay, so the results are in; sort of. 380 mm rotors, giant calipers, meant 1 mm clearance horizontally with the wheel spokes. He found on-hand 5 MM spacers for the front wheels. Yay! I get to drive the car home and bed-in the pads over a 2-day period during the Holidays with a good margin of error wheel clearance.

However, today I'm going to get 5 MM rear spacers to re-square the car again, and also we are going to change to longer wheel bolts so I get more threads per bolt as I lost 5 mm of thread contact. Good enough to drive normally, but he told me to avoid flogging it as we were a thread under spec. Noise is minimal which is highly satisfactory given they are basically track pads.

For scale, realize that's a 19" x 9" wheel.

Michaell

andres3 said:

Okay, so the results are in; sort of. 380 mm rotors, giant calipers, meant 1 mm clearance horizontally with the wheel spokes. He found on-hand 5 MM spacers for the front wheels. Yay! I get to drive the car home and bed-in the pads over a 2-day period during the Holidays with a good margin of error wheel clearance.

However, today I'm going to get 5 MM rear spacers to re-square the car again, and also we are going to change to longer wheel bolts so I get more threads per bolt as I lost 5 mm of thread contact. Good enough to drive normally, but he told me to avoid flogging it as we were a thread under spec. Noise is minimal which is highly satisfactory given they are basically track pads.

For scale, realize that's a 19" x 9" wheel.

Holy moly!

Those things look large enough to stop a 737.

stickguy

sad thing is, our Odyssey had brakes about 1/2 the size of those. Tiny little things for a car that big, that could haul so much.

xwesx

Wow, @andres3 ! I hope you get at least as much enjoyment out of them as you did headache!

andres3

xwesx said:

Wow, @andres3 ! I hope you get at least as much enjoyment out of them as you did headache!

Yes, the pessimist in me tells me I better get them additionally insured for the $4K in case a Prius wrecks my car.

fintail

Took the old dear out today, on the nicest weekend day in weeks. Nice to get out after an especially dreary and damp week. Temps in the low 50s, sun, only saw one other old car on the road, a mid 60s Stingray convertible.

Car was idle 22 days, started on the first turn as usual. I noticed it had kind of a miss or sputter at some low rpm areas in 3rd and 4th gear, not unusual for these cars, as they like to be revved. I adjusted (slightly slowed) the idle speed controller, and it seemed to run better at all speeds, with no noticeable sputter, weird how that works.

Gratuitous pic for the day:

fintail

Spotted this Andre-mobile on another forum - rare car, but silly price. Check the seller's other cars for similar.

stickguy

interesting color combo on that one. Time warp car.

explorerx4

When was the last time you saw one of those full width plastic floor mats?

ab348

Gesswein always seems to have the most unique Chrysler survivors. That one is remarkable.

tjc78

The Diplomat they have is something too. I'd imagine it is one of the best survivors out there in the world. Who really saved those?

andres3

fintail said:

Spotted this Andre-mobile on another forum - rare car, but silly price. Check the seller's other cars for similar.

So which would win in a stoplight race, your old MB or that old Chrysler?

fintail

Tough call. The fintail has less than half the displacement, and no doubt the same amount less torque, but also has FI and no emissions equipment, so hp might be similar (~135 of the old hp). My car does 0-60 in 11-12 seconds. They might be similar.

andres3 said:

So which would win in a stoplight race, your old MB or that old Chrysler?

fintail

I wonder if this has hit the block yet, or what it will bring with no reserve - needs a Topo Gigio doll or figure somewhere in it.

stickguy

I suggested to the wife that we could put B-J on for a while. She was not a fan.

ab348

fintail said:

I wonder if this has hit the block yet, or what it will bring with no reserve - needs a Topo Gigio doll or figure somewhere in it.

Sold for $145,750.

That is a really handsome color combo.

Mr_Shiftright

So that's about $130K without commissions---yeah, that's about right for a top notch car. I didn't check if it had AC--that's worth more.

fintail

It appears to have an under-dash pod, being sold new in southern CA to a wealthy person, I assume it has AC.

Maybe even fairly well-bought given the market for these things now, and the provenance.

Mr_Shiftright

Probably the same car offered privately would have sold around $110K--$115K. That's closer to "real money".

I dunno. Does Ed Sullivan even matter anymore? Pretty creepy guy. Probably best known for featuring Elvis and The Beatles.

fintail

Probably enough for a 10% price bump. The Ed Sullivan show is still in syndication - it was off the air several years before I was born, but people in my generation still know about it, not to mention rich boomers still have many years to buy.

Mr_Shiftright

They are nice cars--it's one of the few older Benzes that can feel totally at ease on American freeways without buzzing in the higher RPM range.

fintail

For 130K it better be nice

As traffic is slow here anyway, I'd be happier with a just-as-nice fintail for 25K, a just-as nice 6.3 for 50K, or a 6cyl cabrio for the same money. Of course, 4 door to 2 door is apples to oranges.

omarman

Elvis and Beatles?
(or more recently Michael Jackson and Prince?)

Creepy stories and legends about them still flourish. Yet the combined value today of their recording catalogs? $$$$$$$$$$$

Now that matters!
But fan clamor and morbid curiosity leads to some pretty strange "collections" like the New Jersey garage which claims to own Hitler's toilet.
Now that's creepy!

Re: Ed Sullivan syndication
I saw a performance by Blossom Seeley on a recent Sullivan episode on Decades. She sounded great but must have been around 75 y/o at the time!

explorerx4

Ed Sullivan. He was the guy at the restaurant in Pulp Fiction?

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

Probably the same car offered privately would have sold around $110K--$115K. That's closer to "real money".

I dunno. Does Ed Sullivan even matter anymore? Pretty creepy guy. Probably best known for featuring Elvis and The Beatles.

But....Shifty...it was always a "Really big shew" Ed Sullivan was a legend for MANY years!

bhill2

explorerx4 said:

Ed Sullivan. He was the guy at the restaurant in Pulp Fiction?

Yup, the MC in Jack Rabbit Slim's is channeling good old Ed.

fintail

Quick CL browse:

This looks like a sweet little old car - I wouldn't put it into commuter duty, but you don't find them like this much anymore.

Diesel 140s are quite rare, and I like the colors but I think these engines had some issues, as evidenced by the maintenance claims

This is indeed a grey market car and a little too new - as it passed emissions, I wonder if it was close enough to a US spec model to be easily federalized.

OG Supra Quite uncommon these days

Hemi Very rare bodystyle

Beginning of a long line

Very rare, too bad so far gone

Nice wheels

Interesting provenance and equipment

Cousin for Andre's Le Mans

Basic survivor Looks like an undercover cop car

A very Brady wagon

texases

I know it's cheap, but grey market? NPOCP loved it:
https://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/cto/d/1983-european-imported/6459905326.html

fintail

Yep that's a grey market car. Euro bumpers, lights, velour that I have never seen ordered on a US spec car. Canada gets a ton of grey market stuff from Japan, which can sometimes be iffy as it never has records. That car is so cheap, I suspect it has some issues maybe worse than mentioned. Rust can be a problem on these at this age (minor hints are a bad sign) and the wool velour is very expensive. You'll want to go over the engine, too.

texases said:

I know it's cheap, but grey market? NPOCP loved it:
https://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/cto/d/1983-european-imported/6459905326.html

Michaell

@fintail - I'd love to have that '73 220 - something to use like you do with your fintail.