Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans



  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Smart move. At least the investment that the dealers had to make in the PAX equipment won't go to waste and I'll be able to buy my new tires from them when the time comes. I didn't think PAX was ever going to be removed completely. I hope this ends the civil war between the PAX adopters and the PAX haters over the past couple of years. :D
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    Oops, we found a PAX hater!

    I don't own a odyssey. I have an Acura RL with the PAX and have had no problems. Maybe there's something going on with the compatibility between the van and the tires. I'm looking to get an 08 Odyssey with the PAX and will monitor these threads to see if I get the sense there's really something going on here.

    Regarding my comment about tire pressure. I keep my RL PAX tires at 35 rather then the recommended 32. I notice no difference in ride and am trying to avoid this possible issue I've read about. I don't know if it's true about edge wear, but I decided to play it safe and watch my tire pressure more closely then I normally would have.
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaMember Posts: 451
    Hater? Well, I do hate monopolies. And I do hate getting stuck with something you might not want in a package option. I applaud the decision to make PAX a stand-alone option.

    It may be that the typical Honda minivan buyer has different expectations than an Acura RL buyer.

    Tire replacement cost, ride, tire life - these are things a minivan owner or driver is going to look at with less of an "enthusiast" point of view. This is basic family transportation.

    The negatives of RFTs seem more tolerable on performance-minded vehicles than they do on mainstream family cars. Even so, the BMW 3-series RFT complaint thread is as big as this one.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    I said that tongue-in-cheek. sorry.

    I agree, the RL is kind of a "sports" sedan. I've driven the RL with (and without) the PAX tires. It ran MUCH smoother and quieter with the PAX versus the standard Mich MXM4 tires. Also, much more responsive. Like I also said, I've had no extra wear problems, but, am certainly aware of the rumblings on the Odyssey.

    That's why when I started thinking about getting a new Odyssey Touring van I started researching these threads. I'm not dismissing it totally but I'm still skeptical.

    By the way, I agree, making it optional is a good thing. I hope the rumors are true. There are usually suspension differences to support the pax wheels and tires. Not sure how they can make that a dealer option.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Not sure how they can make that a dealer option.

    I would assume that this is a factory option and not a dealer-add option due to exactly what you just said regarding the suspension tuning differences between the two. Most people don't "order" these vans as you know and it will be interesting to see how Honda deals with the allocations of PAX and non-PAX equipped Tourings.

    If you like your PAX on the RL I would say go for it on the Touring. The TPMS allows you to monitor the exact tire pressure and I watch it closely as well and keep my tires at 38f/39r. No wear or vibration issues and no flats to date. It's all good.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    That's good to hear. I honestly don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the PAX tires, other then the fact that they are expensive to replace. Although I think that's coming down too. A quick call to my Honda dealer in Orlando quoted me $285 installed, that doesn't sound very expensive.

    The fact that you had no problems makes me think there's no mechanical "flaw" in the cars suspension causing this problem, OR if it was, it's something they addressed in the later models. As someone mentioned, the rims and tires are heavier then regular tires. Maybe their suspension tuning was flawed in the early years.

    What year is your Odyssey?
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    We bought it in May 2006. It is an '06 and once again have no wear issues at all, including the edges. My wife drives it daily and we take weekend trips(300-400 miles r/t) and a couple of longer trips (3,000 r/t). The PAX tires have between 18-19 thousand now, I think. I like the fact that you can see the actual tire pressure from the TPMS at a glance, and it is very accurate. I rarely have to add air to them as the seal seems to be very good. When I do add air I use a good gauge and once again the TPMS sensors report back almost the exact same pressure to the MID.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,388
    Yes, '08 Tourings with PAX will carry a different model number than those without and will, presumably, have different suspension tuning.

    It's unclear whether R&N will be bundled with PAX or not.
  • odymikeodymike Member Posts: 23
    I have an 05 Touring and have witnessed both sides of the PAX debate. Having had a double flat tire incident in December - the system worked, I was able to drive home. The tires were able to be repaired for $65 total (mainly because the retailer didn't know what to charge). I was very happy.

    Now for the bad - the tires would not pass inspection in May and had to be replaced at 27,800 miles. The alignment is fine, tires were rotated as specified, and inflations monitored and maintained. I see it this and only this way. The PAX system is marketed as a premium tire system - and matched by a premium cost (up front, repair costs, replacement costs, and being locked into only Michelin tires, etc).

    Michelin agreed to pay 35%, so if you do the math, it looks like they actually only expect 40,000 to 45,000 miles. So any way you slice it - the wear on these tires in my opinion is excessive. I was out $860 after only 21 months of operation.

    I hope the class action lawsuit provides a way out/better option, but most likely will just benefit the lawyers.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    Hey OdyMike, thanks for sharing your experience. I'm in the market for an Ody and have heard a lot of this stuff on the web. I have PAX tires on my RL and haven't had any issues.

    One thing that caught my attention was your statement that Mich only expects the tire to last 45k miles. Are you expecting more? The average tire in America (there's actually a statistic on that) last 45k miles. That means some (like high performance tires) last less and some last longer. Point is, 45k miles is good. I've never gotten that on ANY OEM tire equipped with a new car. In fact, I'm starting to think there's lower grades of rubber they use on OEM tires versus off-the-rack. PAX or no PAX. Bottom line; if I get 45k on these tires I"ll be thrilled.

    Second, I'm curious what it was about the tires that failed inspection. Was it uneven wear? worn tread? cut/scalloped treads? A lot of problems are directly attributable to the car (struts, allignment, etc). I'm still trying to compile enough info in my mind to see if its the Ody suspension from the early 05's that was the problem. if that's the case, then I would assume they've "tuned" the suspension system to correct the issue.
  • odymikeodymike Member Posts: 23
    In the simplest terms - you are not going to get 45,000 miles out of PAX tires. Unless you only drive on the highway. They failed inspection because the 2 front tires had a tread depth of 1/32, and the rear two tires had a tread depth of 2/32. They wore evenly. I fully expected with the cost of these tire to get at least 50,000. I do not expect to get 50,000 miles out of a set of $450 tires from Sears or Pep Boys. But at a full cost of $1,000 - I expect more mileage, and feel that it should be delivered.

    Not only that - but finding someone who will actually work on these tires is very hard. Most places that are listed as able will tell you the following:
    --equipment is broken (most popular response in my area - metro Philly)
    --the person who was certified is no longer employed here

    My local Honda dealer is able to perform the work - but charges out rage ious prices ($85 dollars labor per!) while non PAX tires are free. Get Real...

    Add all of this up, and the PAX system is not living up to my expectations. I like having them, but will NEVER buy another vehicle with them. Now I know better.

    In truth, I doubt that these tires will ever become mainstream to deliver the price margins of scale, because of the labor and materials required to service:
    --Special Training
    --Special Mounting Equipment (for tire to rim)
    --Special jack to stretch the tire to fit over the rim
    --Special gel slime kit
    --complex procedure to remove and install (first use this machine, then that machine, then air up, then air down, use another machine, air up again, rotate tire, install)
    --Time to complete - about 45 minutes off and 45 minutes on

    Most people will not pay for the above - I am stuck, and should have been a better informed buyer. I knew it had run flats, but not this type.

    If Honda has made changes to the Odyssey to address poor mileage, then they should fix all of the other vehicles - to date I am not aware of any recalls or TSB's to address.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "I do not expect to get 50,000 miles out of a set of $450 tires from Sears or Pep Boys. But at a full cost of $1,000 - I expect more mileage, and feel that it should be delivered."

    Hmmm, interesting and timely comment. I was responding to a comment about the longevity of Goodyear Assurance TripleTred tires (available typically for less than $500 for a set of four installed, if you shop around) on a different forum this very morning. I put a set of the TripleTreds on both of our vans back in late 2005 and one of them already has nearly 55,000 miles on it since it got new shoes. I think the following picture illustrates quite nicely that these tires will last for their advertised 80,000 mile lifespan.

    Best Regards,
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    As weird as it sounds, price is not a factor in determing tread wear. In fact, the more expensive "performance" tires usually last less. Price is more a factor of performance, reliability, speed rating, etc.

    I have a set of Michellin Pilot Z's on my 3000GT Spyder. This is my second pair. Their rated for about 25k miles and cost about $1500 for four. That doesn't mean the tires are crap. There's a trade off of factors with tread wear being just one of them.

    I'm not arguing expectations about availability for replacements. I'm right there with everyone on that. It bothers me that Michellin has not done a better job in that category. However, I think expectations on tire tread wear rating may be unrealistic. Again, 45k is pretty good.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "As weird as it sounds, price is not a factor in determing tread wear. In fact, the more expensive "performance" tires usually last less. Price is more a factor of performance, reliability, speed rating, etc."

    Well maybe I should have qualified my comments better. Sorry, my bad. :blush: FWIW, I'm very familiar with the whole performance rubber thing as the summer rubber (Michelin Pilots) on my 530i SP were only good for maybe 22,000 miles before they wouldn't pass inspection.

    "However, I think expectations on tire tread wear rating may be unrealistic. Again, 45k is pretty good."

    Hmmm, the Goodyears on our two vans have a tread wear rating of 80,000 miles, and it looks highly likely that both vans will exceed that by a comfortable margin. The Michelin HydroEdge tires on our neighbors van are rated for 90,000 miles and judging by their first 30,000 miles, those tires will make it the distance as well.

    FWIW, I don't think I've ever had a car with All-Season tires that didn't do at least 50,000 miles on a set. While I probably wouldn't complain about 45,000 miles from a set of OEM rubber, I most assuredly wouldn't replace them with the same tires (unless I had to as in the case of PAX).

    Best Regards,
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,388
    One problem is that PAX are wear rated at 500. While that is no guarantee as to longevity, it certainly led me to believe they'd go 40,000 plus miles with no problem. While I should get 40K out of mine (now coming up on 32K), many owners have not gotten nearly that many miles before needing replacement.

    Honda and Michelin are facing a looming catastrophe and it doesn't help that Michelin's website is still boasting that PAX costs only a small premium over conventional tires. While that may be technically true, it glosses over the high mounting cost and is, IMHO, extremely misleading.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    Totally agree. I like PAX. But Michelin needs to set expectations about replacement costs realistically. That would solve a good percentage of the problems
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    It would be interesting to see if overall 2008 Touring sales go up as a direct result of being able to choose between a PAX equiped and Non-PAX equiped van. Will PAX be available on the EX as well?
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    Good question. if they make it optional then I'd love to see them offer it on all Ody trims (assuming it can be done cost effectively from a manufacturing standpoint).

    I read a rumor that the 08 Accord may come with a PAX option. May have read that here or on another board.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Yes, I heard the Accord-PAX rumour as well and believe it is true. Those dealers that bought the PAX equipment have to pay for it somehow!
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    Those dealers that bought the PAX equipment have to pay for it somehow!

    You make a very insightful observation there. With all the problems the Ody Pax system is causing for Honda, there could only be one reason for applying them to the Accord.

    By the way, according to Michelin customer service, they are only promising 40k out of the Ody Pax tires, not 45k. But longevity isn't the only issue with Pax (neither is cost). One must still consider the fact that IF a PAX tire fails outside of a major metro area, you are probably going to be stuck for days. PAX equipped and trained retailers are few and far between...
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    You guys have to remember, this problem with the Ody and PAX is kind of unique to the Ody. Consider the possibility that your perspective of the issue might be somewhat myopic. For example, I have an RL with PAX. I don't have any problems. I frequent an RL website all the time. No one's complaining about PAX over there.

    I subscribe to the argument that there may have been a problem with the suspension tuning on the early Ody's that tore up these heavy pax tires. It's a Honda Ody problem. It's not some inherent flaw with the PAX tires. In fact, I suspect Honda probably resolved all this with the 06 Ody (certainly the 07). I haven't heard any large number of issues about premature wear with 07 owners. I'm sure it will be just fine with the Accord since Honda probably learned their lesson on the poor 05 Ody buyers.

    Having said that, I totally agree (as a PAX owner), about the other issues that IS Michelin's fault. I am not happy that Michelin hasn't done more to get support available for these tires. For example, there isn't ONE single Michelin tire shop within 200 miles of me that sells or services PAX tires. WHAT? It's there system! They are letting market forces drive the rollout of this product. Instead, they should have done more to finance and force out the coverage for repairs and service.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,388
    Interesting comments, especially about the lack of complaints by RL owners. So far as I know, Honda made no changes to the Odyssey suspension from '05 to '07 (and premature complaints do run across years), I can't help but wonder if the problem doesn't somehow relate to the weight of the vans. They are pigs, tipping the scales at about 4700 pounds IIRC.

    And you're ever so right about the lack of service. According to Michelin's website, there are NO shops capable of servicing PAX in metro Columbus (population 1.4 million) except for Honda stores.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    My Ody is an 06 with 29k miles. With regular pressure adjustments and rotations at 5k miles, I'm about 2k from the wear markers. The tires have no unusual wear. Michelin offered to pro-rate the tires using 40k as the standard life--with no allowance for mounting.

    When I bought the van, the dealer specifically pointed out the safety features and "peace of mind". He also emphasized that you got all these features at a cost of only 10-15% above regular tires. He failed to mention the lack of available service centers, shorter tread life, and real-world replacement cost at least twice as high as standard tires.

    Shipo made a good point earlier with regards to enthusiast drivers versus van drivers. In addition to my Ody, I have an 04 BMW 330 Convertible. I didn't complain a bit when I had to replace the tires at 22k miles--I expected shorter tread life. Even then, a new set of the latest BFG performance tires cost less than half the dealer's quote on a new set of Pax tires.

    There's definitely something wrong here...
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    I'm no expert on the facts of this problem. Let me preface my comments with that. I'm just a guy considering buying an Ody Touring and trying to learn some things before I jump in. As a result, you can imagine I'm trying to keep an open mind on this since it's in my best interest.

    All I can say is that when i read all this stuff I get a sense there's two types of complaints here;

    The first group of complaints is due to unrealistic expectations e.g. People are complaining they only got 40k miles on their PAX tires. Well, that's about average for a good quality tire. High performance tires average about 25k, while "plastic" low grade tires can get you 60k, 70k, or more. However, there's a trade off with performance, traction, etc. when you harden the compounds that make the tire wear slower. Again, 40k is about average in the overall range of tires. Which means these tires are probably about in the middle for handling and performance.

    Hoewver, the other group of complaints has my attention. People reporting getting 10k on their tires. ASlthough that happens all the time due to poor maintenance, I admit the frequency of complaints seems high. I agree something else must be going on.

    However, all this isn't rocket science. It can only be a couple things. Either the tire system is truly defective or the suspension system on the Ody is not tuned properly to work with these much heavier tires. Given the fact that these tires seem to work fine on other cars, I'm left thinking it's the second. AND, if it's the second, I have to believe Honda addressed it and fixed the suspension by now. By the way, just because Honda didn't "announce" any changes doesn't mean they didn't tweak things.

    I'd love to see a real aggregation of data showing premature wear based on year of Odyssey. if the problem is not going away, I agree, avoid these tires on the Ody. It's probably a problem that can't be "tweaked" away. However, don't let it leave a bad taste in your mouth about the PAX. That would be a mistake.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,388
    When I bought my Touring in 2/05 I figured that PAX was a wash - additional safety at enhanced cost. Still pretty much feel that way overall but the Honda/Michelin support assistance has just been poor.

    The sense that I get from having following the debate here and on the Ody club website for a couple of years is that premature wear is strongly related to how much in-town driving one does.

    And my personal experience has been the same. My tires are still ok at 32K (most highway miles). A co-worker was his third set by 40K (mostly in-town miles).

    If I was buying now, yes, I'd do it again, principally because prices are finally coming down and PAX mounting machines are multiplying.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    IF most people were actually getting 40k miles out of their PAX tires, and IF the dealers weren't advertising a cost differential of only 10-15%, there would still be a huge problem: lack of promised service centers.

    To the best of my knowledge, no Honda dealer within 50 miles of my home has the PAX gear. For example, if one were to lose a PAX tire between El Paso and Fort Worth (about 600 miles), he'd be out of luck for 350 of those miles (pax range of 125 miles either side). On the other hand, a guy running regular tires would be able to use his standard spare tire to get him to any of the dozens of tire stores for a repair or replacement. If it's the guy's wife, she could just call AAA to come change the tire--no such luck with PAX.

    Premature wear and differential cost aside, Honda should have required its dealers who sell PAX-equipped vehicles to install PAX equipment, keep PAX tires in stock, and train PAX installers. Honda has a responsibility to stand behind the products it sells--it has failed to live up to that responsibility in the case of PAX-equipped Odyssey Touring models.

    By the way, my current Odyssey is my third since 2001. I love the van. Yes, I said I love my minivan. However, it will be my last Honda Odyssey if they don't fix the PAX problem.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Did you really mean to say that your co-worker replaced his third set (ie:12 PAX tires) within 40K miles? That has to be some kind of record. Did Michelin step up and pay for all or most of his replacements?
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,388
    Yes, each of the first two sets lasted approximately 20,000 miles. I don't recall the details now but Honda and/or Michelin paid for part of at least one of the two replacement sets.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    Now, when you hear stories like that you have to pause and take notice. But, putting on my statistician hat for a second, you have to also ask yourself what is the real percentage of these incididents across the total population of PAX owners. Boards like this are great. But they tend to magnify problems because people love to talk about them. Also, people love to share problems they've heard (e.g. a friend of my friend said....). In contrast, no one's getting on the internet to specifically talk about how good their tires are wearing. It's heavily biased towards the negative.

    Also, we don't know this person who got 20k miles on his 40k tires. Maybe he gets low tread wear on all his tires. We all drive differently. I've been in cars with guys who are in their 40's and still drive like they are 18. Cutting in and out, taking turns at excessive speeds, etc. If he's used to driving "hard" 60k mile goodyear tires then he will get slaughtered with softer "performance" tires like this. When I was 18 I could never figure out why my tires, brakes, and stereo speakers never seemed to last as long as they should in my car. I thought I was unlucky! Of course, I know the reason now. By the way, I haven't blown another set of speakers in 30 years :)

    Maybe these softer tires are less then ideal for a heavy van. I'll give us that much. But, I still suspect a large part of these stories are due to the driving style and maintenance of the owner. It must be, for the simple fact that it is only happening to a small (albiet significant) percentage of people.

    I can't wait to see where this class action suit goes. If there is some sort of real data to back up these stories, no doubt the hungry lawyers will find it. But, I'm sure Honda and Michelin have looked at the data too. The fact that they still put these tires on cars (and seem to be expanding it to others) makes me think they are comfortable that these claims are statistically isolated.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    I can't wait to see where this class action suit goes. If there is some sort of real data to back up these stories, no doubt the hungry lawyers will find it. But, I'm sure Honda and Michelin have looked at the data too. The fact that they still put these tires on cars (and seem to be expanding it to others) makes me think they are comfortable that these claims are statistically isolated.

    I'm no prognosticator, but I'm willing to bet that Honda and Michelin settle the suit. Like they do in the vast majority of class action suits, the defendants will run the numbers and pay off the lawyers. It generally has little to do with the veracity of the plaintiff's claim. It's all a numbers game. In this case it's going to be pretty simple because nobody has died from it.

    As to why Honda may be continuing the PAX tire, it may have as much to do with the amount of money they have already invested and how much they save by not having to provide spare tires. I'm sure Michelin will hang in there because they've made a huge investment in these tires.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Nobody has died and it's at worst an "inconvenience" for some. There are enough good experiences and long tread life examples out there, including me, that this suit will do only one thing. Make lawyers money, period. No PAX owners and parties to this suit will get satisfaction when it's over, just watch.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    You're probably right chirp. I'm sure Michelin and Honda have had their lawyers review the aggregated details very carefully. If there was any truth to the assertions about tire wear problems I'm sure they would have addressed it by now to reduce liability.

    Having said that, I think there's still an issue of an adequate support network. Honda and Michelin are trying to address that by being very generous with replacement cost discounts, flying in tires overnight to remote areas, etc. This will probably derail some merit to the lawsuits, however, they can't keep doing this forever. Michelin needs to star forcing all Michelin dealers to be able to support and sell these tires. If I was Michelin, I'd be embarassed that none of their franchise dealers are willing to support this product.
  • smlycatsmlycat Member Posts: 23
    I concur with Vinnyny. They are a joke. The point about cost and mileage aside I can live with, it's the $100 charge to fix a flat and the 3 hours stranded at the dealership this pathetic. Last week, our deal's machine was broken. They anticipatd 3-4 days to get it fixed. Folks, the dealer is the only game in town in most instances. And in our case the dealer scratched the wheel so we had to start over - it only took 5 weeks to get the wheel in and mounted!

    Big news from Alabama today, the rumor today in Lincoln, AL around the plant is that PAX is history for '08. Thank God. They are going with 17" wheels, perhaps the same as the Ridgeline.

    Alternatives at present are the EX wheels or MDX sport wheels 18 x 8 with the RDX tires 235/55-18. I have also heard of guys using the regualar RDX wheels too. All are almost identical in diameter so speedo won't be affected. The heavier springs in the front of the Touring models are a non-factor.

    Honda needs to step up and offer a conventional set of wheels and tires and a @#$% spare! I've got the tools and the damned jack, but no bloody spare!
  • smlycatsmlycat Member Posts: 23
    According to sources near the Lincoln, AL plant, Honda is dropping the PAX tires and will be offering 17" wheels on the Touring models.

    The 2008's are already in production, so hopefully the rumor is true.
  • chirpchirp Member Posts: 194
    Ok, so all of those posts now about the PAX being an option for the 2008 Touring are false? Huh?
  • smlycatsmlycat Member Posts: 23
    They maybe an option. In fact it is probably Honda's way of saving face by not pulling the plug and burning all those dealer who purchased the $15K PAX tire machines. But the Touring conventional tire for '08 is a 17" wheel, I've seen it - nice. Very similar to the MDX sport wheels.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    I hope this is true about them being optional. I've also read several sources confirming that. These tires are great, but, they are not for everyone. You must value the benefits over the clear negatives. It's foolish to force them on people. This is the true source of all the tension. Making it simply optional is the right thing to do.

    For now those who use RFT's can consider themselves "early adopters" of a concept that will undoubtedly be on every car eventually. The idea is a no-brainer. Therefore, it's inevitable that they will work out the kinks in the idea, the prices will come down, and it will go mainstream.

    Whether PAX is the answer or some form of SST, I don't know. I happen to be betting on a PAX type solution as an eventual standard. It just makes more sense then stiff sidewalls. You think Odyssey drivers are complaining? Go on a BMW board where most of their cars now come with SST's
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I have to take the opposite side of coin on this one. Personally, given all of the severe negatives associated with RFTs in general, I highly doubt that they'll be fitted to all cars in the future.

    Time will tell, but I'm betting directly against you on this one. ;-)

    Best Regards,
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    Oh, how can yu say that Shipo? That's like saying alternative fuel cars won't go mainstream someday. Right now I wouldn't buy one. Too expensive, for the return on investment. But that's me. It's not the concept that's bad. It's the implementation. Continue to make incremental improvements and eventually you reach "critical mass" and the idea busts out. I'm not saying the exact implementation of PAX is the answer, I'm just saying RFT's will be everywhere someday. By the way, RFT's are A LOT more popular in Europe then here. As usual, America is the last to adopt a good idea. Not sure why that is, maybe because we're such a big country it's harder to force out change on the marketplace.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,388
    In case you hadn't noticed, the U.S. is very conservative in a great many respects and resists change even when the need for it is self-evident.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "How can I say that?"

    It's easy. Slice it and dice it any way you want, the physics of RFTs require increased unsprung weight and/or decreased ride and handling (both bad). True, the tire manufacturers and vehicle manufacturers will learn to adjust their designs to overcome the effects of these issues, however, taking those same new technologies and applying them to GFTs will make them that much better still.

    Trust me, I am an agent of change. I love change, when it is warranted. That said, all too often folks hang their hat on the next big thing that turns out to be a blip in history. Take hard drives for instance. I remember a day in the early to mid 1980s where all those in the know were predicting the end of the hard drive era and the beginning of the solid-state storage device era by 1990. I mean, why not? Solid state drives were shock proof, crash proof, had the promise of using less power for any given unit of storage and had a virtually unlimited lifespan. What's not to like?

    So what happened? For every advance that brought solid state drives closer to the mark, hard drives matched those advances (and then some). Here we are, over two decades later and spinning media is still the king and probably will be for quite some time into the future.

    "By the way, RFT's are A LOT more popular in Europe then here. As usual, America is the last to adopt a good idea. Not sure why that is, maybe because we're such a big country it's harder to force out change on the marketplace."

    You ever been to Europe? As a general rule, the surfaces of their roads are far superior to ours and as such, those with RFTs (still a very tiny minority by the way) won't feel the negative ride characteristics as often or as harshly as we will over here.

    Best Regards,
  • rosman59rosman59 Member Posts: 2
    When I purchased my '05 Odyssey, dealer told me the tires had a 60,000 mile warranty. Didn't tell me that was if there was a defect and there is no mileage warranty, and didn't mention you HAVE TO replace these tires in-kind. When my tires had no tread after $40,000 miles, Michelin customer support told me it was against the law to replace the Pax tires with any other tire because it would disable to sensor which is a safety item. I could have bought four new wheels and tires for what it cost me to replace two of the Pax tires at the Honda dealer. Michelin and Honda are field testing these tires on the Touring model and I'm paying the price.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    Unfortunately the dealer lied to you. These tires are rated for 40k miles. Evidently, unless you take care of them, you won't even get that (more like 35k).

    In addition to that, this dealer took you for a ride (pun intended) and charged you some crazy price. This almost sounds illegal. I can't believe Honda doesn't step in here and mandate set pricing from their dealers. PAX has worked great for me and I like them. But, clearly Honda didn't think this all the way through. Having a tire that can't be serviced by anyone but Honda dealers in your area (I assume that's the case) will only create these price gouging situations. Maybe that's why the rumor has it they are making PAX optional next year for the Odyssey.

    By the way, we have several non-Honda dealers (TIre Kingdom, etc.) in Orlando who can service PAX. Maybe that's why the price is $285 installed.

    The other huge flaw IMO; No spare tire. I understand the tires can be driven for 125 miles, but what if you're on a road trip to your sisters house 200 miles away, etc. The PAX system prevents you from getting stranded around town and can get you to a place of safety when you're out of town on a lonely highway, that's great! However, having a spare would finish the package and make it a complete safety solution. That would allow you to change out the dead PAX with your spare and not kill the weekend road trip. Honda says the spare adds weight. So what. Let the purchaser decide if he wants to keep the spare always in the car or stored in the garage for backup on the occasional long road trips.
  • 3sweetums3sweetums Member Posts: 4
    I'd have been thrilled with 35K. My front tires lasted 12K (granted, I did not rotate them at 6K but still...). PAX is a great concept, but those tires are too "soft" (my dealer service manager's opinion). LOVE my Ody, hate those tires!
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    I hope Honda did a free wheel allignment for you when you only got 12k miles. Soft or hard, rotation or not, no tire should wear out at 12k. My Michelin Pilots even lasted 25k and they are Z rated high performance tires.

    Either you have a serious toe alignment problem or you are driving that Ody like you're still a teenager in a camaro. As you very well know, these tires are expensive. I'd look into that further before you end up replacing that second set at 12k again.

    Good luck Sweetums
  • odymikeodymike Member Posts: 23
    I don't think these tires are rated for any mileage - I have been unable to find any specific mileage guarantee. This is what Michelin's website says:

    "Q: What type of treadwear can a driver expect with PAX System tires?
    A: PAX System tires should provide treadlife comparable to a corresponding traditional Michelin® tire."

    So what exactly is a traditional Michelin tire's tread life?

    If you look at what Michelin offers when the tires are worn out, you can ASSUME that Michelin expects about 45,000 miles. Clearly, the only chance a real consumer has at this mileage - is if they drive almost exclusively on the highway.

    OBTW: I have another flat tire on my PAX, it has been in the shop since Saturday - since no one was working at any of the local places that is trained to work on PAX. At least with a donut spare - the wife could have gone grocery shopping.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    Yes, I was also going by the prorating Michelin does when there is a premature wear claim. Clearly they expect the tire to last at least 40k miles. BTW, I believe I mentioned it earlier in this thread; I don't own an Ody. I am in the market for one and currently own an Acura RL (with PAX). I've had no such issues with my PAX, nor, do the RL forums scream about the problems like I read on Ody boards. I don't think theres something fundamentally wrong with the tires but I'm wondering if there's something very wrong with the car/tire pairing. I'm trying to learn as much as possible before a purchase of an 08 Ody Touring.

    Your comment about the flat this weekend is exactly what I feel is REALLY wrong with this setup. These vehicles need to have a doughnut spare. Something so you can wait the 12-36 hours to get it fixed. I have to admit, I never considered your scenerio a problem. I figured I'd just drive around on the flat (in town) until I could get it fixed. However, the thought of getting a flat on a Friday evening on your way to a destination 200 miles away seemed to be a real problem. That's why I bought a dougnut spare for my RL and normally leave it in the garage for emergencies. With this setup I feel I have the best of both worlds.
  • 3sweetums3sweetums Member Posts: 4
    Can you explain, in layman's terms, what a "toe alignment" is? I'd like to have a little ammo if the problem arises again.
    I've been taking the Ody to the dealer for oil changes every 3K and having them check and record the tire tread. I just had the tires rotated again (at the requisite 6K) and so far the tires are holding up. I'll let you know in another 6K.
    I can't recall if they rotated the tires for free, but Michelin paid 50% of the cost to replace the tires.

  • spicymikeyspicymikey Orlando FLMember Posts: 96
    Glad to hear Michelin stepped up and paid 50%. They should have done more in my opinion given the treadlife is supposed to be more like 35-45k.

    What is Toe? Your wheels all need to be pointing in the same direction when you drive otherwise they end up "fighting" each other and creating extra friction with the road. This particular adjusment is called Toe. it should be at zero degrees relative to it's partner wheel on the other side of the car. Think about when someone first learns to snow ski. The first manuever they are taught (besides how to fall)is how to stop. They tell you to point the skis in on each other to create drag and slow you down. It's the same thing with tires. It will destroy them quick. If it's heavily out of alignment there will be signs of it (choppy tire wear, a pull to one side or the other, vibration at high speed). However, if it's subtle you may not notice it except for early tire wear.

    BTW, the wheels also need to be riding at 90% relative to the ground. This is called the camber adjustment and misalignments here can cause uneven wear on the outsides of the tire. Rotation helps even out the wear caused by that but the tire still ends up wearing out earlier then it should.

    I want to assume they put it on a rack and did an alignment for you that day (even if they didn't tell you). However, knowing how busy and uncaring some of these mechanics can be, I wouldn't bet my life on it. I'd have it checked.
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaMember Posts: 451
    Actually, static toe is usually slightly "in" (toe-in) on the front of most cars. It can be measured in degrees or mm or inches. When measured in length units (mm or in), toe-in is the amount that the tires are slightly closer together at the front edges compared to the separation distance at the back. Looking down at you own feet, that would be the amount the toes are closer together (in) than the heels.

    Why static toe-in? When you drive, friction with the pavement applies a moment at the tire, which compresses the inboard suspension bushings, trending the dynamic alignment to the toe-out direction. You have to start with just the right amount of static toe-in so that the dynamic toe will be zero or thereabouts.

    The amount varies with the suspension geometry and bushing stiffness - there is no one spec that works for all cars. Front wheel drive and rear wheel drive cars differ too, because in an FWD situation the tractive force of propulsion somewhat offsets the friction effects described above.

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