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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    Actualsize, can you weigh-in with any information on which third party wheels will accept the TPMS sensors and which tire/wheel combinations will give the correct speedometer readings and a safe/good ride. I have a '05 touring odyssey.

    I don't have that information at my fingertips - especially the bit about specific third-party wheels. The aftermarket is still figuring out how to deal with TPMS sensors and wheel upgrades. I'll look into it. I'm going to the SEMA (Specialty Equipment Marketing Association) show in Las Vegas in 3 weeks, and I plan on grilling all the wheel makers and TPMS sensor providers I can think of on this issue.

    If you can't wait that long, you could always look at the 16" tire size on non-touring Odysseys and use that (P235/65R16, 103T I think - not sure about the "P"). The rolling diameter is the same as the PAX. Buying a set of 16" Odyssey wheels from Honda - go straight to the parts department and avoid talking to the service guys - is doable, but probably pricey. Still, it's probably less than a PAX tire and its a one-time purchase that will get you factory-looking wheels and access to reasonably priced, long wearing, freely available tires now and in the future.

    Take your new wheels to a third-party tire store to get them mounted so you don't have to hear the whole warranty violation speech from the Honda service writers. You probably ought to buy 4 new TPMS nuts (they're a one-time use part) when you buy those wheels, so that they can be properly tightened by the tire store when you do the swap.

    The tire store might have some of these, but they might not.

    BTW: If you want to figure out the equivalent sizes when doing tire swaps and changing wheel diameters, use the following formula:

    (width*aspect ratio*2/25.4)+ wheel diameter = overall diameter. For a 235/65R16 tire, this would be...
    (235*0.65*2/25.4)+16 = 28.0 inches. Anything within a couple of tenths of this would work. NOTE: the oddball metric PAX size doesn't work with this formula.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    However, the argument about cost is a weak one and I guess I'm just getting tired of hearing people complain about it... ...What would it cost for comparable non-pax tires? Don't forget these pax tires are 18", the OEM tires on the not Touring Ody is 16".

    This is where we disagree. Cost is a reasonable issue.

    First, PAX tires aren't comparable to anything else. They're not 18" either - they're 460mm. Close to 18", yes, but not interchangeable.

    Second, 18-ish" tires are great for a sports car, but I think they are a negative on a comfort-oriented family vehicle like a minivan.

    Third, the cost of tires with a larger wheel-diameter (not overall diameter - just wheel diameter) and lower aspect ratio (needed to keep the overall diameter constant) isn't appropriate for this market segment either. A minivan shouldn't have ultra-pricey tires on it - of any type.

    Fourth, PAX tires are more expensive that comparably-sized 18's (if you could find them) - especially considering the cost of the required gel-packs and additional charges for mounting and balancing most are subject to with PAX.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    I have purchased a set of EX wheels for my Touring model. I am waiting for the '08 Touring models to arrive whereon an a 17" wheels will be offered. The PAX tires will be optional.

    Anybody interested in what the new 17" wheels look like? Email me [email protected]
  • Sorry, I was expressing that in the context of a law suit. Of course price matters in the decision process. However, from a "responsibility" perspective, it's weak argument. A buyer can't complain the tires cost more. The price was right there and easy to obtain. If you bought the car without doing the research then you have no one to blame but yourself -- a judge would conclude -- and I'd agree. You just spend $40k on a very expensive vehicle. PAY ATTENTION to what you're buying.

    However, there's no reasonable way anyone could have known there is no service centers within 500 miles of certain areas of this country. I think Honda and Michelin REALLY screwed the buyer there. In fact, I think they are legally liable for that one. That's where a class action lawsuit should be started. As mentioned earlier, I have a friend who worked for Ford as a defense lawyer. He agrees with me and would research it. Unfortunately, I live in Florida and the cost of the tires and service facilities is fine. It's not a fight I can initiate. It would need to be started by someone who is directly hurt by this fact.

    If anyone is interested let me know. I'll get you talking with them. They're a law firm in California.
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    A quick run of the numbers suggests the tire size will be 235/60R17.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    A class action requires the ability to prove that the universe of all Touring owners suffered damage, or at the very least, a substantial percentage of Touring owners suffered legal/financial damage. That's hurdle #1. Beyond that, the plaintiff must also prove that the defendant (Honda and Michelin) were legally liable of causing that damage. You have to prove both. Not easy to do.

    Availability is not really an issue for me. There are plenty of PAX-certified locations around me in Illinois. I was wrong, there are actually 4 (not 3) Honda dealers within 45 minutes of where I live that service PAX.
    And many more if I include Chicago and St. Louis. Sure, I could be driving in the boondocks and be screwed.

    In spite of the horror stories of some people being stranded and inconvenienced, I don't know if there is enough to support a class action. I know I don't fit the class from where I sit.

    But it doesn't change the fact that I'm still po'ed that I'm locked into PAX without much recourse. I checked with 5 dealers today, and one of them will change all 4 PAX tires for $1120 out the door. That's the cheapest of 5 dealers. The most expensive was $1359. So, the cost is definitely coming down.

    Successful class action? I just don't see it.

    Loss of customer goodwill for Honda? Absolutely.
  • I didn't say it was a slam dunk case. I just said that was the only thing you could blame Honda for.

    Actually it is a valid case. When you purchase tires it's reasonable to assume the manufacturer has established an adequate support network to service, repair, and replace them. You and I wouldn't be very good class reps because we are not necessarily experiencing the problem first hand. You can't sue for "anticipating" a hardship. There's a legal term for that but I don't know what it is. However, if a class action got rolling we could probably be allowed to join and would receive our share of the award.

    Having said that, you gotta give Michelin some credit for setting up this "overnight" policy where they will fly the tires anywhere in the 50 states within 24 hours. That's not as convenient as it could be, however, it might be seen as a good faith attempt by theh courts to remedy this "temporary" lack of servicable areas.

    Back to this cost issue (because I'm considering an 08 Ody with Pax). If you found a set of 4 for 1120 OTD, then what's the big problem. A set of decent 18" (no pax) touring tires is going to cost you close to $800. So it costs us an extra $320 for these special tires with this special runflat capability. Amotorize that over 2-3 years and it's peanuts. Again, I don't get that side of the argument AT ALL. I'm just concerned about getting service when I need it.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "(width*aspect ratio*2/25.4)+ wheel diameter = overall diameter. For a 235/65R16 tire, this would be...
    (235*0.65*2/25.4)+16 = 28.0 inches. Anything within a couple of tenths of this would work. NOTE: the oddball metric PAX size doesn't work with this formula."


    You don't actually need a formula with the 3 number PAX metric tire sizing. The first number (i.e. 235) is the section width in millimeters, the second number (i.e. 710) is the overall diameter of the tire, and the third number (i.e. 460) is the wheel diameter.

    All things considered, it is a far easier sizing methodology than the convoluted and utterly stupid (metric)/(%) R(inches). Errr, IMHO. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "Back to this cost issue (because I'm considering an 08 Ody with Pax). If you found a set of 4 for 1120 OTD, then what's the big problem. A set of decent 18" (no pax) touring tires is going to cost you close to $800. So it costs us an extra $320 for these special tires with this special runflat capability. Amotorize that over 2-3 years and it's peanuts. Again, I don't get that side of the argument AT ALL."

    Once again I have to disagree here. You're trying to compare a set of minivan tires with a set of tires for a sport sedan, and that simply is not a valid comparison. If I did that then I'd be upset at the fact that I can buy a full set of premium tires (i.e. tires that outperform the Michelin LX4s that come on the Odyssey) for either of our minivans for a whopping $500 installed, while a set of premium rubber for my 530i SP could cost me as much as $1,400 installed. See the difference?

    What you should be comparing is the cost of a set of PAX tires for the Odyssey to a complete set of GFTs for competitive vehicles (i.e. Dodge Grand Caravan, Toyota Sienna,...). Unfortunately for the PAX tires, installed they easily cost two and a half times as much as a set of tires for the other vans, tires that have superior driving characteristics in every regard to the PAX tires.

    Granted the extra cost of the PAX tires isn't going to cause most folks who can afford an Odyssey Touring to take out a second mortgage on their home, but it is an issue none-the-less.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    My take is a little different. The added safety of PAX is priceless and I don't have a problem paying more.

    However, the deception employed (10 to 15% more than conventional rubber) in selling PAX is inexcusable, especially since it persists to this day.

    On the availability issue: it was understandable in the first, maybe even the second, year. For it to still be a problem after 3 full years is simply pathetic.
  • I was trying to compare it to a tire of similar quality and size. In the same respect, you shouldn't compare these 18" PAX tires to the 16" standard tires that come with the non-touring Ody. It's just an apples to apples test. The 18" tires are much less common and are always more expensive then a very very common 16" wheel. The 18" tire will always provide better handling and performance then the smaller 16" wheels. In fact, I think those 16" wheels are too undersized for that vehicle. If I replaced the PAX wheels, I'd go with another 18" wheel for that van.

    The person who bought a Touring Ody not only got a PAX runflat tire but also got an entirely superior tire/wheel combination.

    So, that's why I was trying to say lets see what it would have cost to replace these 18" PAX tires with similar performance 18" touring tires.
  • Just went to tire rack and pulled up tire options for my 2004 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited with 18" wheels. The cheapest tire I'd even consider putting on my family car came in around $200. There were prices as high as $300 for the grand touring models. That's an internet price without installation!!!! The pax tires will still probably be more expensive installed, but let's compare apples to apples. You want $99 Yoko tires on your family ride?

    Tire Rack prices for Toyota Sienna XLE Limited

    Here are customer reviews on those $99 Yoko tires
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    As usual, I need to disagree here. There was a study done a number of years ago that showed quite convincingly that wheel sizes in the 16-17 inch range was where wheel/tire peformance peaked. On either side of that performance dropped off, albiet for different reasons.

    As for the specific tires we're talking about here; I'll wager that if you took two Touring model Odysseys, one with the Michelin LX4 PAX tires and the second with the 16" EX wheels and the Yokohama AVID TRZ tires, to a track and recorded their lap times (absurd I know, but it is a good test for tire effacacy), it is my bet that the van with the 16" wheels would win quite handily.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • I know you said it was a number of years ago, but I'd love to see that study. That kind of flies in the face of everything I've ever experienced first hand or read about tire size and handling characteristics. Theres a reason higher performance vehicles are always fitted with larger diameter wheels -- and it's not because they look cool. I don't want to take this thread off topic so we can leave it at that and just agree to disagree.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "Just went to tire rack and pulled up tire options for my 2004 Toyota Sienna XLE Limited with 18" wheels. The cheapest tire I'd even consider putting on my family car came in around $200. There were prices as high as $300 for the grand touring models."

    Once again you're not offering proper comparisons. Why? First off, the only two options for tires available for that van (well, three if you want to consider the RFT version of the EL42s) are absolute junk. Bridgestone makes lots of very fine tires; unfortunately the EL400s and EL42s aren't among them. Said another way, virtually any premium aftermarket tire for the minivan market will stomp those Bridgestones into the dirt. That said, I don't believe that Toyota is even selling Siennas with 18" wheels any longer, the one you referenced is now 4 model years old.

    A more appropriate comparison is the 2008 Sienna Limited with 225/60 R17 tires. A complete set of Michelin HydroEdge tires (a tire that is far superior to the Michelin LX4, PAX or no) is $500, figure $600-$650 installed.

    As for that link you provided to the Yokohamas, sorry, wrong tire. Yokohama makes several different tires in the AVID line; the ones I was referring to are the TRZ model. Check the link below (test results can be found on that page as well as in the Consumer Reports archives):

    http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=AVID+TRZ

    Please keep in mind that I'm not saying that the Yokohama is the ONLY tire to consider here, just that it is the only one of the premier minivan tires that happens to be offered in the proper size for the Odyssey EX.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    The study wasn't that old, I'm thinking 2003 or there abouts.

    FWIW, the thing that stood out about the wheel/tire assemblies that were 18" and over regarding their degraded performance was their weight. They were just too darned heavy to be responsive enough. Given that a set of 235/65 R16 tires mounted on 16" rims weighs less than two-thirds that of the PAX assembly, the narrower sidewall height of the PAX tires has a lot of making up to do.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    We are starting to get way off topic here, thanks to everyone's personal biases.

    Bottom line---PAX is a unique tire system. It offers attributes unlike any other. All of these comparisons to GFTs, other run flats, 18 vs 16 inch, performance or non-performance, minivan vs. car, aren't proving anything, nor are they really addressing noted frustrations.

    Most Ody buyers knew they were getting a unique run flat system. (Or, they certainly should have known.)

    The infrastructure, availability, and prices in support of the PAX system are improving by the day. Six months ago, there were no Honda or independent dealers within 300 miles of my house who had the PAX equipment. In a few quick months, they are now all around me. Fewer consumers can make the same argument that VinnyNY and SpiceMikey are making today.

    I repeat my position that I don't see the basis for a successful class action, since it must apply to nearly all Touring owners. Infrastructure is no longer the cornerstone of that case. Tire wear isn't a sufficient cornerstone, either. Lack of choice/monopoly probably never was a factor from day one, at least in terms of successful litigation.

    Rant all you want on whether you like or don't like PAX (hey, it's a free country). In spite of the fact that Honda is obviously slowly extricating itself from widespread availability of PAX as OEM equipment, I am impressed that they appear to have convinced most of their dealers to invest in the PAX changing equipment. Like I said, I'm in a small town, and I am surrounded by dealers with the capability. And prices are indeed edging down.
  • I've noticed dropping prices and better availability here in Orlando as well. The trend is definitely in the right direction.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Shipo--the sidewall of the PAX tire is not narrow (as they are with typical RFTs). Due to the inner ring, the PAX tire has a sidewall that is wider, softer, and comparable to that of a conventional tire, thereby offering a smooth and quiet ride. It's a totally unique system, in spite of its well-documented warts. One reason it weighs more is due to the fact that it is quite literally a hybrid of a run flat and a conventional tire.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Your post saying that my scenario was outdated made me curious, so I went to the Michelin website and searched for PAX dealers within 100 miles of El Paso (the nearest city in my situation). Although there were several PAX dealers in the El Paso area, there is still a huge gap once you get outside the metro area. In my particular case, I might have made it back to an El Paso dealer, he might have still been open, he might have had a replacement tire, he might have had a tech on duty to work the machine, and I might have gotten back on the road that same night. Or, I might not have...Is that good enough for your family vehicle? Did the Honda dealer who sold you your van enlighten you to this potential problem or did he sell you on the safety and security of PAX?

    In short, one year and many new PAX dealers later, the supposed "security" of PAX is still a myth in many areas. A fact that dealers are still not sharing with consumers.

    By the way, my car had the blow out within sight of a regular tire dealer (coincidence--yes; anecdotal--yes; reassuring for a guy with non-PAX tires--absolutely).
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "Shipo--the sidewall of the PAX tire is not narrow (as they are with typical RFTs)."

    Uhhh, what? Like it or not, the measurements don't lie. The sidewall of the 235/65 R16 tires is 6.01" while the sidewall of the PAX 235-710R460A tires is 4.92". How is it that you're claiming the opposite? :confuse:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    I'm not doubting that there are limited options in terms of PAX support in/around El Paso, but I also wouldn't rely on the Michelin website. How many Honda dealers do you have within a 100 mile radius, and do they have the equipment? I would start with the Honda dealers first.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Have you ever seen or ridden in an Odyssey Touring? The PAX tire looks different from a conventional run flat--it lacks the stiff and visibly narrow sidewalls. The ride in the Touring is softer and quieter than traditional run-flats, because it's got this ring inside. The specs may show about an inch difference, but the sidewall is soft and resembles a conventional tire.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    What the heck are you talking about? Like it or not, both tires have a nominal 28" overall diameter, and if they didn't, the speedometer would be off. That said, the EX has a 16" wheel and the PAX wheel is 460mm which equates to 18.11". Do the math, the sidewall on the non-PAX models is almost exactly 6" while the sidewall on the PAX models is slightly under 5". End of discussion.
  • And what's the point of this back and forth? The PAX tires are clearly not as easily serviced as conventional tires. But is it as bad as it's being portrayed here?

    If you have a flat tire in the middle of nowhere and need an emergency fix, that can be done without removing the tire from the rim. It's called a plug. It's a semi-permanent fix, but it can easily (and often) is done. You won't need a PAX tire machine for that. On the other hand, if you get a complete blow out and need an entirely new tire, chances are good that they won't have your tire in stock EVEN IF it wasn't a pax runflat. Go ahead, walk into some tire store in the middle of somewhere today and try to buy one specific tire. Chances are they'll need to order it from a local distributor warehouse and ask you to come back tomorrow for installation. That's about what would happen with the PAX tire also. If you were looking to replace all 4 they could probably accomodate you if you weren't picky on exactly what tire you wanted.

    Point is; This is like the argument about cost. Yes there's a disadvantage with the PAX tires, but that difference is beign exagerated by taking the worst case scenerio (for pax) and comparing it to the absolute best case scenerio (without pax). It's not not as bad as the people on this thread are claiming. If you weren't informed and were getting your information exclusively from this forum, you'd think the sky was falling.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "Go ahead, walk into some tire store in the middle of somewhere today and try to buy one specific tire. Chances are they'll need to order it from a local distributor warehouse and ask you to come back tomorrow for installation."

    Funny you should mention that. I happened to be walking through a Discount Tire a couple of weekends ago (wifey was shopping and the tire shop was attached to the place where she was shopping). As I walked through the shop I noticed not one, not two, but three different makes and models of tire in the exact size for both of our vans literally sitting on the floor. Given the popularity of the Honda Odyssey, my bet is that the 235/65 R16 tires are widely available and as such fairly easily found simply by calling a couple of local tire shops.

    That said, your point about tire availability is well taken, "next day" availability isn't a huge killer IF you have the time and IF you can find a shop with the necessary equipment and training.

    The real key here (for me at least) is that if two families set out on a long road trip, one in a PAX Odyssey, and one in either of our vans, and both vans suffered a tire destroying event, ours would get to the destination first. Why? Simple, both of our vans have a full-sized spare tire and a jack.

    Looked at another way, I routinely drive our vans the ~250 miles from our home in New England to clients out in Long Island and northern New Jersey. If I suffer a flat (twice) or a blowout (not yet), all I need to do is pull over and swap tires (or maybe call road side assistance if the weather is foul and I'm in a suit), and I'm on my way.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    "Theres a reason higher performance vehicles are always fitted with larger diameter wheels -- and it's not because they look cool."

    The reason is called brakes. Brakes must fit inside the wheels and sport cars have massive brakes to reduce fading.

    Krzys

    PS The test I think was done by SCC (Sport Compact Car). They found that handling performance was the best with 17" wheels (no clue about width). Smaller and larger wheels were not helping.

    PS2 Plugging. Would you plug a RFT just the same way GFT is plugged? What if RFT was used without air for last 10, 20, 30 miles on highway? RFTs are disposable after being run without air, AFAIK.
  • Would you plug a RFT just the same way GFT is plugged? What if RFT was used without air for last 10, 20, 30 miles on highway? RFTs are disposable after being run without air, AFAIK.

    The SST runflats seem not to be repairable (so they say). The PAX tires are repairable just like a standard tire. That said, externally inserted plugs are often used as a permanent fix but I'd still get it patched from the inside (once you drive out of the desert, etc.).
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    You bring up a great point. Plugging is what I've done for years with my conventional tires. However, two problems arise with the PAX 1) Michelin may void your warranty 2) because the run flat disc is so tall on the wheel, there isn't much room to insert a plug. I've investigated all the plug systems on the market and Plug & Go offers a low profile system that might work. In talking with the owner, he had no experience with PAX and was not sure it would work. My question then is, have you plugged a PAX with success?

    Thanks!

  • The real key here (for me at least) is that if two families set out on a long road trip, one in a PAX Odyssey, and one in either of our vans, and both vans suffered a tire destroying event, ours would get to the destination first. Why? Simple, both of our vans have a full-sized spare tire and a jack.


    No question this is true. I guess I'm debating degrees here not absolutes. I'm just trying to say it MAY not be as bad as it seems. I think someone like you (in the north east) shouldn't really find yourself in a jam with these tires. The real legitimate issue is still for those areas of the country that have no service. I think Nevada has one location in the entire state to service PAX tires. That's where Honda should be held accountable. That's where the REAL problem is. It's down right dangerous to venture out with a PAX tire and no spare in those areas.

    But even that wouldn't be a problem if they simply disclosed where the non-service areas were? Then, you could make a decision whether to buy this car or not. Am I that far off the mark in my thinking with you guys?
  • You bring up a great point. Plugging is what I've done for years with my conventional tires. However, two problems arise with the PAX 1) Michelin may void your warranty 2) because the run flat disc is so tall on the wheel, there isn't much room to insert a plug. I've investigated all the plug systems on the market and Plug & Go offers a low profile system that might work. In talking with the owner, he had no experience with PAX and was not sure it would work. My question then is, have you plugged a PAX with success?

    No I haven't had a flat with my PAX tires yet. I was only talking hypothetical. I was also looking at it as a way to buy time, get home, and schedule a true fix or replacement. Again, I'm more stuck on the safety concern then the cost. I think someone buying a $40k van can afford the pax tires. However, being stranded with your family on a trip is unacceptable.
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    If you have a flat tire in the middle of nowhere and need an emergency fix, that can be done without removing the tire from the rim. It's called a plug. It's a semi-permanent fix, but it can easily (and often) is done.

    Well, PAX tires are not supposed to be plugged. I don't think the "must be serviced by an authorized (trained) Michelin PAX service technician" statement is entirely a PR line.

    Why? PAX tires have a gel coating on the inner surface of the tire. It is there to lubricate the tire when it rubs against the inner support ring when the air comes out and the tire runs-flat. Because the diameters of each are quite different, this is a sliding friction zone and quite a lot of heat is generated.

    The gel would have been heated and thinned by this friction. It has to be replaced, and the tire has to be dismounted to do that. And, of course, only PAX-trained shops with the right equipment and baggies of gel on-hand can do that.

    As for the plug, the gel would be drawn into the hole by escaping air and be further smeared-around inside it during the plug prep and insertion process. The glue holding the plug in wouldn't be as reliable. And the little nub of the plug that protrudes inside the tire wouldn't be compatible with the support ring the next time it ran flat.

    And if you ran flat long enough to get to Joe's tire store for that ill-advised plug, you might be close to the end of the run-flat range of the tire. Even though it might not blow out, a tire that runs-flat for a significant portion of its run-flat range has to be replaced. Despite the gel, the tire suffers irreparable internal damage while running flat.

    Spares are better. Run-flats would be great if you still had a spare. You could deal with all of this at your leisure. Odyssey PAX owners are lucky because they have the option to buy a spare (only the Honda factory temporary spare will fit) and stow it in the usual location, as that space is still available in a Touring. Other cars (Mini Cooper S) sacrifice the spare tire well for other uses (centrally mounted dual-exhaust in the 'Coop) making this impossible.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • Yes, as I think was mentioned before several times, the run flats AND a spare would be the ideal solution from a safety perspective, if not a cost perspective. My RL has the wheel well still available. It has a tray in it's place used for extra storage. I've thought about the idea of getting a doughnut spare to put in there. But for me, I don't travel outside of areas that provide service. My main reason for getting these tires is so I don't get stuck on a lonely highway at night. More importantly, I don't want my wife or daughter getting stuck on a highway alone at night. That's the scenerio that scares me, and is the reason I have no problem paying an extra $400-500 every few years. For me the tires add value, but I realize that's not the case for everyone. That's why I think it was wise to make them optional now .
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    I don't think the problem is being exaggerated. If your wife and kids were in the PAX-equipped van and experienced a tire failure under any of the following conditions, they would be in trouble:

    Remote area (worse if no cell phone coverage)
    Night (most PAX dealers are Honda dealers or Michelin corporate stores which don't stay open as late as Walmart)
    Sundays and major holidays (see above)

    All of these limitations would be understandable, even acceptable, if Honda had disclosed these facts up front. They didn't when I bought my van and from what I've heard, they don't now...
  • user777user777 Posts: 3,341
    Add running over something that compromised the tire and specifically damaged the inner ring and also beyond the acceptable traveling distance for the ring / tire combination following loss of pressure.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Following up on a number of threads over the last week or so, I noticed that virtually every wheel offered for the 2007 Odyssey EX, regardless of size (i.e. 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20) states, "OE Sensor Required". What this means to me is that if one owned an Odyssey Touring and wanted to lose the factory PAX wheels and tires, an avenue is now open that allows the continued functioning of the TPMS system.

    A sampling of options:

    Sixteen Inch:
    235/65 R16 Yokohama AVID TRZ tires
    16x7 Leonis AS Silver Machined w/Clearcoat wheels
    Total from TireRack: $924.00

    Seventeen Inch:
    235/60 R17 Pirelli Scorpion STR tires
    17x7.5 Rial Porto Bright Satin Sil Paint wheels
    Total from TireRack: $1,196.00

    Eighteen Inch:
    245/55 R18 BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDWS tires
    18x8.5 ASA JH8 Silver w/Machined Lip wheels
    Total from TireRack: $1,272.00

    Nineteen Inch:
    245/45 R19 Yokohama ADVAN S.4. tires
    19x8.5 ASA JH8 Silver w/Machined Lip wheels
    Total from TireRack: $1,808.00

    Twenty Inch:
    245/40 R20 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S tires
    20x8.5 Zinik Z9 Sabini Chrome Plated wheels
    Total from TireRack: $2,656.00

    Have fun ordering! ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Do those prices included mounted sensors? Are the sensors universal or specific to each maker?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "Do those prices included mounted sensors? Are the sensors universal or specific to each maker?"

    No and no. Typically folks who've bought new wheels for their cars equipped with active TPMS systems have them removed from their OEM wheels and mounted on their new wheels.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    Not practical. You have to disassemble the PAX to remove the TPMS. Dealer charges $100 per to pull it apart. Better to just buy 4 new ones from Honda. They run any where from $35-45 each.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Not practical? I'm inclined to disagree. IIRC, the folks who've done it were abandoning their PAX setup anyway and simply had their local tire shop perform the sensor swap for ~$100. While I've never done it (obviously), as I understand the problem, you simply need to break the bead seal on the sensor side of the rim, compress the edge of the tire, detach the sensor and pull it free. Said another way, there is no complete dissassembly of the PAX system required.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • My understanding - from what I've read on these message boards, haven't done it myself - is that:
    - breaking the seal is not something done 'simply'. It requires the PAX machine. And
    - The TPMS for the PAX rims is different from the TPMS for standard rims. For the same reason that a different machine is needed to break the seal and remove and re-mount the tires - the shape of the rim is different for a PAX wheel than for a standard wheel.

    Regards, JEff
  • Also, you've destroyed the tire and probably damaged the rim. Yuo could have easily sold the set on Ebay for good money.

    There's no easy cost effective way out of it.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    As I understand it, a conventional tire machine is capable of separating the bead from the wheel on a PAX tire with no damage, and that the wheel sensors are the same regardless of the wheel type. I say this because I'm almost positive that I've read at least one account where this was accomplished.

    Selling the PAX wheel and tire assembly on E-Bay? Who'd buy them? It's not exactly like these things are in high demand. In the account that I read no mention was made of the fate of the PAX assembly.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • If that's the case then it wouldn't be so bad. You could sell the tire assembly undamaged. The wheel and inner doughnut has real value.

    Who would buy the tires? Lots of people. Not everyone things PAX is a bad idea Shipo.

    You can sell your dirty underwear on Ebay. Everything has value to someone.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    I found one complete set up for $399 plus $250 for shipping. That set has NO TPMS sensors (probably because they're now installed on the new set of GFT wheels), and has been posted for about a week without a single bid. There were several other single wheel/tire assemblies, none of which apparently had sensors either, and none of which have been bid on regardless of how long they've been posted, even though they're being offered for less than $100.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Shipo, what's the deal with you? Do you just like to debate everything someone says? I'm not arguing how much value it has. I'm just saying it has value and it's better to not destroy the wheels. You seem to like debating degrees.

    The sky is blue, would you like to argue that it's really more aqua blue, or maybe powder blue?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Debate? The last post about checking E-Bay was for informational purposes only. That said, my personal bet here is that used PAX wheels are going to be increasingly common on the second hand market and are going to find few takers.

    Please don't take it personally, you like the PAX system and are both an ambassador and advocate for them, I am the loyal opposition. Said another way, there will always be folks who value a run flat tire (not necessarily in exchange for a spare though), and those who think that they are questionable in their technology and/or implementation. Who's right? Both, the arguments just appeal to different camps. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Advocate? Are you kidding? I was the one trying to see if there was interest in a class action lawsuit rather than just whining about it. I'd like to call myself more of a "voice of reason" on this thread. More times then not I agree with many of the comments here but I feel compelled to respond as I read along when I hear someone overstating or exaggerating things. A lot of our words get picked up by search engines and get indexed. People make decisions based on what they find on the internet. We have an obligation to be even handed.

    My latest contribution to this thread was to just say don't destroy the wheels or inner ring when you dismount them. They have value.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "I'd like to call myself more of a "voice of reason" on this thread."

    Hmmm, interesting, I consider myself that too. ;-) I guess it all depends upon your point of view. IIRC, the one solid piece of common ground that you and I both stand on is that they should be made (and have since been) strictly optional regardless of what model they are offered on.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Absolutely Shipo. Honda should not force these tires on the entire Tourer buying population. There value is restricted to a narrow segment of the population. For Honda and the customers sake, they need to be a dealer add-on.

    I think we actually agree on more then just that. And for anyone stumbling across this long thread it's good to summarize;

    1) PAX tires are not fully supported in all areas of the country. You can find yourself with a flat and well beyond the range of the driveablity of the run flat technology if you live in a place like Nevada.

    2) For that same reason, we all agree, Honda is WRONG for not stating this fact when they sell these tires. In fact, I personally think they should be sued. I'll point people in the right direction if they are interested in learning more about that idea.

    3) These runflats cost more to replace then similar tradition tires. They CERTAINLY will cost more to replace then the optional 16" tires that come with the other trim level Ody's. The 16's are much smaller in both width and diameter. They are by far more economical tires to use.

    The only time you (and others) start loosing me is when you talk about the UNACCEPTABLY excessive cost of replacing the tires and/or the short tread life.

    1) No one can prove that these tires have a short tread life. In fact, my personal experience, and that of some friends, indicates the contrary. Strangers bouncing on and off these type of threads to scream about ridiculously low tread life is circumstantial. There are often other reasons for low tread life and it can happen with any tire. "Your mileage may vary" applies to all tires. All the talk about that is just noise in my mind.

    2) These 18" runflat tires are more expensive to replace then the standard 16" LX tires you get with the Ody. That's a fact. But I think that's just to be expected. If you didn't expect it, then you didn't think it through before you bought them, and you certainly didn't do your homework. I hope new people reading this tread at least learn that much and avoid being surprised.
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