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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • My understanding is that a conventional tire machine needs to be able to accept special rollers to break the bead of a PAX tire, as illustrated in the video that spiceymike provided. Not all conventional machines, except perhaps some of the newer ones, can accept special rollers designed for PAX tires?

    Of course, if all one wants to do is get at the TPM sensors to install on a different set of rims then one could use any number of improper methods to rip the PAX tires free from the rim.

    I recall seeing a post from someone on a different message board who made the switch from PAX to regular tires and gave manufacturer and part numbers for the different TPM sensors he had to install. I'll look for it, but if I can't find it I guess this particular item of discussion has hit a dead end until someone can come up with a reference one way or the other.

    Regards, JEff
  • Great video - thanks.

    One thing I didn't see was the guy prepping the tire and support ring with the special lubricant that I understand needs to be renewed when PAX tires are changed or repaired. He just took the tire off the rim and put it back on again, didn't even remove the support ring from inside the tire and re-insert it without doing the gel thing. Those process must take some amount of time, I don't know how much, to do right. There's no comparable process with a conventional tire that we could use to make an estimate based on experience with conventional tires.

    Regards, JEff
  • Hmm, good point. I guess the demo was just to show the mechanics of dismounting and mounting the tire. You'd have to take into account the step of opening the gel pack, removing the contents, and then applying it to the inside of the tire. Thinking that through, I'd guess it probably adds another 2-3 minutes.

    I'll bet 10 minutes per tire is a very conservative estimate versus 5 minutes for a regular tire. 20 minutes to replace a regular set versus 40 minutes for a pax set? I'm just guessing, but the point is, it shouldn't take 1 hour per tire.
  • Yes, the guy was just showing the parts of the process that his machine does. That's the whole process for a conventional tire, but not for a PAX tire.

    I also have no idea how long it takes to prep the support ring, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't easy to do right and could take more than 2-3 minutes depending on what's involved.

    The support ring has to be removed from the old tire - that much should be quick. But is the gel put on the ring before the ring goes into the new (or repaired) tire? If so, how to get the ring into the tire without messing up the application.

    Or goes the gel go onto the ring, or onto the inner surface of the tire, with the ring inside the tire? Not a lot of clearance for a big fat hand or a tool to get in there, and how to see inside to be sure of getting even distribution?

    And what is the importance of even distribution? Whatever amount of gel is in there has to be significant for wheel and tire balance. Even if only a few ounces, how much do balancing weights weigh? Only a few ounces? And the gel is located further out from the center of rotation - more torque per ounce than balancing weights due to the longer distance from the center of rotation.

    If the gel is not evenly distributed when the tire is first mounted and balanced, it will be eventually move around and become evenly distributed due to the rotational forces. This will cause the wheel and tire assembly to go out of balance over time resulting in? Vibration at higher speeds? Quicker tire wear? Do we ever hear of Odyssey Touring owners complaining of such things?

    These things are speculation on my part, but it would not surprise me if proper tire preparation is critical, not the easiest thing to accomplish, and time consuming to get done right. Especially for the inexperienced. And it would not surprise me if poor tire preparation, due to inexperience or trying to do the job too quickly, is a contributor to some of the things that PAX owners complain about.

    I'll be needing new tires before the snow comes - I've got 38,000 miles on them now and am just reaching the wear indicators. I'll try to watch what goes on and see if I can learn what the PAX tire prep involves.

    Regards, JEff
  • Yea, that would be interesting to watch them and find out what it really takes. Hope yu can do it.

    I think the gel is applied to the inside of the tire, not the ring. It's just there to reduce heat from friction. I would think you just "paint" it on with a brush or some similar technique.

    You also said something that's important. It probably IS a pain and takes extra time for the inexperienced. But once you've done a few sets it's probably no big deal. Maybe that's why the prices are falling so quick now. Someone on another site said his wife just got a cut tire this week and brought it in their local Honda dealership. The tire was replaced for $190 OTD. He said the whole thing was done quickly while she waited. Very uneventful. That was encouraging to hear.
  • "My understanding is that a conventional tire machine needs to be able to accept special rollers to break the bead of a PAX tire, as illustrated in the video that spiceymike provided. Not all conventional machines, except perhaps some of the newer ones, can accept special rollers designed for PAX tires? "

    I took another look at my PAX tires last night, and noticed that the tire sidewall actually sticks out over the rim by a small amount where the tire meets the wheel. The sidewall comes straight down, and the tire is as wide where it meets the rim as it is back up at the center of the sidewall. A conventional tire has a sidewall that curves around, like a doughnut, and is inside the rim where tire and wheel meet, leaving a good size v-shape circumferential groove. A PAX tire and wheel does not have this groove at the point of contact. The sidewal sits tight against the top of the wheel rim.

    When off the wheel, the edge of the PAX tire sidewall is actually bending out, away from plane of the tire. The PAX sidewall is wider at the mounting edges than it is further up along the sidewall or where the sidewall meets the tread, and wider than the wheel is. When mounted, this puts creates greater sideways pressure betweeen the tire and the wheel rim than a conventional tire would have. This is probably part of what keeps the tire more firmly on the rim in the event of a flat.

    I can see why the PAX tire needs the special rollers that press strictly in the inward direction to push the tire off the 'shoulder' of the wheel.

    Regards, JEff
  • Hey Mikey,

    One thing that may affect the recommended driving distance (and speed) on a doughnut spare has nothing to do with the strength and durability of the tire - it's the tire's size. The small diameter means that the spare is going to be spinning a lot more RPMs than a standard tire. It's going to put quite a strain on the drive train when the spare is a powered wheel.

    Regards, JEff
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    FWIW, I've only had three or four cars with a donut spare, however, they all had the same overall diameter as the factory set of rubber. Said another way, they don't put any undue strain on the drive train should they happen to be mounted on that axle. That said, when a PAX tire (and to a lesser degree a conventional RFT) loses pressure, my bet is that the effective diameter of the tire drops significantly, and that would negatively affect the drive train.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • The doughnut spares on my cars have all been signifcantly smaller in diameter than my regular tires. (If I could have fit a full-size spare in the storage compartments I would have replaced the doughnuts.) For my curent car (a Chrysler Sebring) the difference is ~21.5" v ~24.625" (rough measurement with a foot-long ruler), or 15%.

    I don't know how much diameter a PAX tire loses when flat. I don't know if I want to deliberately flatten one to find out!

    Regards, JEff
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Okay, so I lied. :blush: I just went out and got the sizing off the donut spares that came on our two Grand Caravans, and sure enough, the donut spare is smaller by seven tenths of an inch. That said, 0.7" isn't all that significant, even to the point that it would be difficult to discern the difference unless a back-to-back comparison was being made.

    Funny thing though, after calculating the tire diameter, the donut spares (now retired in favor of full sized wheels and tires) that we have split the difference between the two different tire sizes that were available for our vans. Consider the following:

    215/65 R15 -- Diameter: 26.0" -- Standard tire
    145/90 D16 -- Diameter: 26.3" -- Both of our donut spares
    215/65 R16 -- Diameter: 27.0" -- The optional tires on both of our vans

    Hmmm, I wonder why your Sebring has such a small donut. :confuse:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • "Hmmm, I wonder why your Sebring has such a small donut."

    Don't know. I wonder why your Caravan's have such big ones! I agree that in your case the size difference is not significant.

    I used to have a Chrysler Town & Country. I always thought that was a full-size spare hanging under there. In fact, I'm sure it was - it just had a plain steel wheel instead of the fancy aluminum wheels. It was a 1996, if I recall correctly.

    Regards, JEff
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Yeah, the T&Cs and DGCs had a "Full Sized Spare" option, however, I opted not to order them in both cases as I felt the price premium was a bit ridiculous (in the two to three hundred dollar range IIRC). In the end I managed to buy new steel wheels from TireRack for something like $40 per wheel, and then had our local tire shop mount the best of the used tires on the steelie at the first tire change (hence the fact that I still have the spares as spares for our spares, errr, if that makes any sense). ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Its official. Honda has made the PAX OPTIONAL on the '08 Ody. The Standard type Touring rims look fantastic imho. I hope they are reasonably priced since I think Ill do a straight swap for my PAX when they wear out (should be in about 3 months).

    Would be nice if Honda offered an exchange program.

    http://automobiles.honda.com/odyssey/
  • svofan2svofan2 Posts: 442
    ...I just got my Sienna 08 AWD lImited and they come with run flat tires,since I do have a concern about this tires wne th dealer offered an additional insurance for $290 that covers the wheel and tires for 36,00 miles...I took it..I hope that I never have to use because I don't trust these "insurances"....but I figured it is better than nothing...any thoughts?
  • You're right, these tires are more expensive to replace. The Sienna runflats are the self supporting kind (SST's) so you won't have the issue that PAX owners have finding a service center with the equipment. Those SST tires fit on regular wheels and use regular tire changers.

    The only thing I'd suggest is to double check with the tire manufacturer to make sure they are not already offerign you an extended or enhanced warranty. Michelin offers 2 year road hazard insurance with the tires. Of course, the Finance guy still tried to sell me tire insurance eventhough it was written right in the tire warranty that I already had the coverage.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    I'm thinking that you would have been better off buying a spare tire and a jack and pocketing the difference. Then when tire replacement time comes around, simply opt for a less expensive (and most likely better performing) set of GFTs.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • lyle44lyle44 Posts: 3
    Honda uses a metric wheel. You have buy new rims to use standard tires.added expense of $100 to $200 per tire..
  • rv65rv65 Posts: 1,076
    Dont forget to buy 08 Touring non PAX TPM Sensors. You will need them since the touring has TPMS.
  • svofan2svofan2 Posts: 442
    That is a sound advice if one owns rather than lease,but since I lease your sound suggestion is out of the question. I have to return the Sienna with original equipment as far as tires are concern.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    The trick that RFT shod BMW drivers are using when they have a lease is to yank the factory tires before they get to minimum tread, and store them until lease end. Granted that isn't quiet as practical for the Odyssey lessees, however, it isn't all that different from what I did with my leased 530i. I bought a set of winter wheels and tires for that car that happened to cost less than a new set of OEM tires. Turns out that the factory tires were still above minimum tread depth at lease end, and that meant that that I didn't have to buy a replacement set, saving me about $100. But wait! There's more, I was able to sell the winter wheel/tire set for another $400.

    Regarding your Odyssey, a new set of wheels and tires should cost a bit less than a new set of PAX skins (installed), and you should easily be able to peddle those at lease end, so I still think you'd be ahead of the game if you bought a new set.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Sorry it took me so long to clear this up. Every time in the past when i needed a pax tire, the rim & tire were brand new. No break dust, it looked like it came right out of a box.So when my wife came home this last time thats what i expected. When I saw that old dirty tire I bombed her out.How could you let them put that old @$$ tire on our car. I drove right back to the dealer. That brings me back to my earlier post where it is now possible to use old rims.
  • No problem. Glad your dealer now has the tire changer. My Acura RL dealer still doesn't have it so they do the wheel swap like you described. The only difference is they don't charge me for a new wheel. That's what seemed crazy.

    All the Honda dealers in this area have changers now and the price seems reasonable. However, just decided on (and bought)an MDX. It doesn't have runflats like the Ody and I actually find that as a negative. However, I ended up NOT buying the Odyssey because my wife felt we could finally get buy without one anymore. 15 years of minivans is finally over for us. It was a fun era with the "bus" but all 3 kids are in high school now and always going in different directions at different times. Hardly ever travel as a full family anmore. The MDX "jump seats" in the back are good enough I suppose.
  • Anybody know what the dealer price for the '08 touring non-pax wheels are? Are they available now?
  • Hi Bings...yes, if you go to www.honda.com you should see the info there for the 2008 Ody. It just became available this week. Hope that helps. :)
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    Wheels $495, tires $200, plus TPMS units $45.
  • Did you mean 4 wheels= $495, or are they $495 each? Are the tires $200 each?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    I just browsed through the Honda eStore http://estore.honda.com and found the new 17x7.0 wheels for $443.58 per wheel, plus another $84.13 for each TPMS wheel sensor (assuming you don't want to raid your PAX wheels for the sensors).

    I'm thinking that you'd be much better off going to TireRack and buying an aftermarket set of wheels. TireRack is currently showing a fairly nice looking Rial 17x7.5 wheel that fits your van, and it is only $141 per wheel. From there you could add a set of tires Michelin LX4 tires ($131 per tire), and have the entire set shipped to your home for $1,088 plus shipping and taxes. My bet is that if you call them, you can probably work it out so that you can send them a set of TPMS sensors and have the entire assembly put together free.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    With all the whining I've done about the PAX system, you'll be surprised how I solved my problem with my four bald PAX tires at 35k miles: I traded for another PAX-equipped Odyssey.

    I couldn't bear paying $1200 for a set of tires at only 35k miles, but I liked the Ody so much that it made sense to get another. What changed my mind about PAX? I now live in VA where there are many more PAX service centers and I'm now well-informed about all the PAX issues. I was now able to make a cost-benefit analysis.

    If Honda had advised me of the PAX limitations, costs, and treadwear up front when I bought my first PAX-equipped van, I never would have had an issue with them in the first place (but it's also true that I probably wouldn't have bought the car).
  • Congrats on the new ride. I agree the Ody is a great van. I ended up buying an MDX this month and getting rid of my van. It wasn't because of the pax issue. I kind of like them and accept the tradeoff. I just made the shift because my fam doesn't need a van anymore. Had they offered a PAX option on the MDX I probably would have taken it.
  • svofan2svofan2 Posts: 442
    ..THAT was a smart move if you were about to end a lease or get(buy) a new van....but with all the issues with PAX that alone would have pushed me to another alternative like the Sienna...$1200 is a heavy price to pay when you are about to end a lease or get a new van...just my 2 cents....Toyota has a better idea since their "run flats" are not as pricey as the Hondas....what is Honda thinking about with these expensive tires and wheels?....
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    I ALWAYS trade my cars before the warranty expires, so I would have traded it even if it didn't need the tires. While I would have preferred an 08 without the PAX tires, it would have cost me about $4k more--that buys a lot of tires.
  • Did you go back with the PAX on the '08 or the conventional 17" tire set up?
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    I bought an 07, so it came with PAX. I couldn't see spending $4k more just to get rid of the PAX when all you gain over the 07 is bluetooth.
  • user777user777 Posts: 3,341
    i'm just curious, aren't you taking an economic hit by trading so frequently? seems like you're saving in one area and spending in another.

    but hey, if you got the money and the inclination to change your ride every 2 to 3 years, more power to ya. :)
  • svofan2svofan2 Posts: 442
    I agree..I was looking at Honda site and the 08 Odyddey has the PAX tires on the Touring model...I also saw there that they offer a Touring model without the PAX. I can' figure out how can someone buy this PAX system when it is so expensive unless one travels in bad areas and it is VERY important to be able to get out ASAP...
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    Ever change a tire on the side of a busy highway? The PAX system came on my Touring with RES/NAVI that I paid $34K for, brand new. This is not an "expensive" van nor is the security of PAX a big cost. My tread wear looks like it will go at least until 40K (I have over 20K now and there is lots of depth in the tire and no edge wear at all). So I spend a grand on a new set which gets me to 80K(7 years use)at which time I sell the van. What's the problem?
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    "Ever change a tire on the side of a busy highway?

    Uh, no. I think spending $45.00 per year on road side assistance through my insurance company is a good deal. Certainly a much better idea than spending money on whacked out run flat tires that are generally useless after 35K.

    No thank you sir.

    My friend lost his brother last month. He was changing a tire on the side of the highway. You're spending almost FORTY THOUSAND DOLLARS on a vehicle. Pony up for road side assistance.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    The PAX allows you to pull completely off the highway even if the next exit is 50 miles away. That way you don't kill the AAA guy as well when he bends over the back of your van and a truck takes him out. Watching him die for $45.00 is hardly worth the "assistance" cost, don't you think? I also said I paid 34K NOT 40K. Can you read?
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Although it's not a smart idea to trade so often, I generally don't do that poorly. One of the advantages of the Odyssey is that the resale values are so high. This is my fourth Odyssey since 2001. I sold one in Hawaii four months after I bought it (wife wasn't ready for a minivan yet). We got about $600 less than we paid for it--Hawaii was a crazy market and people were paying $5k over MSRP then. The second one we sold after 35k miles--it was a 2004 that we bought for thousands under invoice because the new model 2005 was on the lot. We traded it for an MDX and got only $800 less than we paid. This 2006 was the first Touring we have traded and lost about $9300 after two years and 35k miles--still less than $400/month. I haven't seen any Touring model leases that cheap.

    As an aside, we have never paid more than $500 over invoice for the vehicles we traded for, so it really is the resale value of the Odyssey that kept me afloat. My wife says I have a sickness, but it keeps her in new cars so she doesn't complain too much!
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    That way you don't kill the AAA guy as well when he bends over the back of your van and a truck takes him out.

    Sorry, I'm not willing to buy insurance for someone else's life. Judge me how you wish but, I'm not going to buy a car with protecting the AAA guy on my list of priorities. When I pull over with a flat, I'll decide where the best place to pull over is, thinking about the AAA guy. But not before.

    I also said I paid 34K NOT 40K. Can you read?

    And I said ALMOST 40.

    al·most [awl-mohst, awl-mohst] –adverb
    very nearly; all but: almost every house; almost the entire symphony; to pay almost nothing for a car; almost twice as many books.

    After tax, title and license it was pretty close. Even if that 34K DID include TTL, it STILL is ALMOST 40K.

    :P
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    Nice try...almost. :)
  • icvci,

    "Even if that 34K DID include TTL, it STILL is ALMOST 40K"

    Try telling that you your 34 year-old wife. Then let me know where to send the funeral flowers.

    Regards, JEff
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Is it just me or was that a horribly inappropriate and fear mongering thing to say? :mad:
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    Yeah Jeff, that wouldn't go over well with my wife, cause it's true- 34 is close to 40.

    :shades:
  • icvciicvci Posts: 1,031
    Shipo, what exactly are you referring to? Jeff was just saying that I'd be taking my life in my own hands by rounding my wife's age up from 34 to 40.

    I can't argue with that.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    How so?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    ..., I guess I misunderstood the post. :blush:
  • icvci,

    Right, you understood what I meant. I don't think a woman would agree with you that 34 is almost 40 - in terms of age or thousands of dollars.

    Anyway, back to PAX tires ....

    Regards, JEff
  • I'll email a pdf file to those who are interested. Write to [email protected] Regards.
    I spent hours reseaching what I had and what I needed in order to get a package that meets or exceeds the PAX ratings for weight and speed. My mileage is also improved. I now have over 2000 miles on these tires and the ride and handling is far superior to Michellin. In comparison Michellins ride like truck tires - which they are.
    I now carry a standard plug repair kit and a cheap tire inflator. The cost to me was expensive but cheaper than PAX and when I sell the Ody, I'll mount the original PAX back on the van.
  • HI:
    I OWN A REPAIR CENTER IN BOSTON. I SWITCHED FROM CHRYSLER T&C TO TRY AN ODYSSEY. THE ONE I ROAD TESTED DID NOT HAVE RUN FLAT TIRES. THE ONE I TOOK DELIVERY ON DID.. WHAT A MISTAKE BUYING A CAR WITH THESE TIRES AND WHEELS AND I'M IN THE BUSINESS. LET ME TELL YOU THESE TIRES ONLY GET A MAX OF 30,000 MILES OF WEAR AS OPPOSE TO A CONVENTIONAL TIRES 50, - 60,000 MILES. IT TAKES A GARAGE 1 HR PER TIRE TO PUT ON A NEW ONE, THE TIRES ARE EXPENSIVE. THE RIMS THEY COME WITH HAVE NO LIP SO MANY F.E. ALIGNMENT SHOPS WILL HAVE A HARD TIME DOING AN ALIGNMENT.

    I DID NOT GET A SPARE WITH MY VAN. IF YOU ARE OUT TRAVELING, ONLY CERTAIN TIRE STORES WILL STOCK THESE TIRES...ON AND ON .. I WILL BE GETTING RID OF IT BEFORE 25,000. MILES. I HAVE 13,000. ON IT NOW.

    WARNING, RUN FLAT TIRE IDEA SOUNDS GOOD BUT BUYER BEWARE.. DON'T BE FOOLED.

    DAN
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