Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Did you get a great deal? Let us know in the Values & Prices Paid section!
Meet your fellow owners in our Owners Clubs

Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

1202123252631

Comments

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "1) PAX tires are not fully supported in all areas of the country. You can find yourself with a flat and well beyond the range of the driveablity of the run flat technology if you live in a place like Nevada."

    Agreed.

    "2) For that same reason, we all agree, Honda is WRONG for not stating this fact when they sell these tires. In fact, I personally think they should be sued. I'll point people in the right direction if they are interested in learning more about that idea."

    Agreed.

    3) These runflats cost more to replace then similar tradition tires. They CERTAINLY will cost more to replace then the optional 16" tires that come with the other trim level Ody's. The 16's are much smaller in both width and diameter. They are by far more economical tires to use.

    A clarification. While the wheels are in fact ~2" less in diameter and a bit narrower, the overall tire and wheel assembly is virtually identical. Both have a nominal 28" overall diameter and both have a 235mm section width.

    "1) No one can prove that these tires have a short tread life. In fact, my personal experience, and that of some friends, indicates the contrary. Strangers bouncing on and off these type of threads to scream about ridiculously low tread life is circumstantial. There are often other reasons for low tread life and it can happen with any tire. "Your mileage may vary" applies to all tires. All the talk about that is just noise in my mind."

    Correct, no one has proven that they wear out prematurely, at least not yet anyway. That said, there is some anecdotal evidence that seems to indicate that there is a premature tire wear problem with the PAX Odysseys. However, whether that is Operator Error, faulty Alignment (either from the factory or induced), faulty tires or manufacturing, or a complete non-issue remains to be seen. I do find it interesting that it isn’t unusual for Michelin to offer to pay part of the cost of replacement when folks complain about premature tire wear. Is that simply good will or are they still working bugs out of the manufacturing process?

    2) These 18" runflat tires are more expensive to replace then the standard 16" LX tires you get with the Ody. That's a fact. But I think that's just to be expected.

    Ummm, well, when they were first offered, dealers were telling buyers that the cost was "10%-15%" higher than conventional tires. Since there was no other source of information at the time, "doing your homework" was essentially equivalent to asking the dealer.

    Now, to another point you've raised about 18" tires (i.e. roughly the PAX size) being more expensive to replace than conventional tires. Yes, absolutely true, however, based upon two different posts by cstiles, folks can figure on paying somewhere between $1,120 and $1,300 for a set of four tires (at the bare minimum). If you check back to my post 1098, you can see that a complete set of new GFT tires AND wheels can be had for $1,272 (the tires are $572 by themselves so figure $700 for a replacement set once mounted and balanced), so even by 18" standards PAX tires are expensive. Prohibitively so given that they should last three of four years? No, not really, but they are easily half again as expensive as conventional tires.

    So, you are correct, we do agree on more than we disagree, and, given our very different stands on RFT technology in general and the PAX version of the truth specifically, I guess that says quite a bit. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Not to throw more fuel on the fire, but I did some more research today (not to be a jerk , but because I'm about to take another long trip). After calling every open PAX dealer within 50 miles, I found that only ONE had a set of tires in stock. (I'm living in Hampton Roads VA now, so we're not talking about a remote location). The average cost was about $1200 and the shortest waiting period was 3-5 days. All of this assumes that your plastic rings are intact--if not, the cost is $80 each and your car stays at the shop until the rings arrive because NONE of the dealers had those in stock.

    BTW: My Ody passed 32k miles today and my tires are almost down to the wear indicators. I generally trade my cars before the warranty or the tires are done, so the Ody may be out the door in a few months anyway. As long as they make it to 36k, I won't complain about treadwear--unless they die on this 1000 mile round trip.
  • My wife and I are about to by a 2007 Ody Touring Edition. I did read that the for '08 the PAX RF will be an option.

    Here's my question...

    When the time comes to change the PAX RF's and I wanted to go to a conventional tire, can I use the same rims that the PAX tires came on OR do I have to purchase new rims with the sensors attached from the old system?

    If I read these posts correctly, you can use the same rims as long as the rims and the senors are not damaged by removing the tires from either a PAX or conventional tire rim compressor? :D

    Thanks for the help.
  • No, the wheels (rims) are a unique metric size (460mm) and only work with the PAX tires. Also, the inner diameter is not the same on the inner side as the outer side. You would need to replace the wheels also.

    I wouldn't advice getting the PAX tires unless you see the benefit. Replacing them after the fact is an effort and a significant cost.
  • Hi Mike,

    Thanks for the clarifications. You're right...I have heard way too many negatives about the run flat tires. Conventional tires and rims will be in order when we get to that point. The other option is to wait for the '08 Ody where the Pax tires will be option, but we need to act soon as my wife's current Honda Accord with 218,000 miles is just about out of steam :sick: Thanks again
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    What are you going to do with your PAX now that you've rendered useless by removing the TPMS sensor? Most folks are going OEM with EX wheels or aftermarket and selling their PAX assemblies for $1,000. Good luck.
  • We haven't bought the Ody yet, but once we do & the tires wear out we'll sell the rims and TPMS as it. Then we'll spring for the conventional tires and TPMS rim set. Tirerack.com has some great deals. If anyone wants to find out more info on run flats, Tire Rack has great information. As they say knowledge is power!!!! :shades:

    Edit....From what I have been reading and you might be right Smlycat that the if I go with regualr rims the TPMS is useless as I may not be able to get regular rims with a TPMS. I have to do more research. Thanks again.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "Most folks are going OEM with EX wheels or aftermarket and selling their PAX assemblies for $1,000. Good luck."

    You're kidding right?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/4-Set-Honda-Odyssey-Pax-Run-Flat-Alloy-Rims-Wheels_W0QQitemZ- - 260163167666QQihZ016QQcategoryZ66484QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    http://cgi.ebay.com/17-Honda-Odyssey-PAX-System-Alloy-wheel-Tire-63887_W0QQitemZ- - 230175085144QQihZ013QQcategoryZ43957QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

    The fact that set of four in the first link has been up for a week at $399 and hasn't had so much as a single bid doesn't suggest to me that anybody has ever gotten $1,000 for a set of four.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Shipo, referring to incomplete and damaged assemblies does not advance your case.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Gotta disagree and will continue to do so until someone can actually show me evidence to the contrary. So, if you can point to an auction where a set of PAX wheels is being sold anywhere near $1,000, I'll gladly retract my statements. ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • azfj60azfj60 Posts: 15
    I just wanted to share my real-world, recent experience with my PAX tires on my '05 Odyssey Touring. It was purchased new in 7/05, and now has ~23.5K miles. Wear bars were close to showing, tread mostly around 2-3/32. Tires had been rotated several times, and I have had an alignment done (crappily, I might add, by the Honda dealer, so they had to re-do it...). I felt this was unacceptable tread life since Michelin's PAX FAQ claims "comparable" tread life for PAX.

    I have gone the rounds with completely unhelpful, and borderline incompetent service reps at Honda to no avail. I understand the warranty is through Michelin, but Honda was SO unhelpful, and uninterested in sharing information, it was obvious that they were just hoping I'd go away. So I got Michelin on the phone, and while I was on hold, they called the Honda dealer where I purchased the van. It was determined that I needed to go to the dealer for an "inspection" before Michelin could proceed with any warranty decision.

    So Saturday I show up at the Honda dealer.

    First service rep: "Oh, sorry, I don't deal with PAX, let me find someone who does".
    Me: "Uh, I just need an inspection. Can't you arrange a service tech to do that?"
    FSR: "Let me get someone else"
    Me: "This isn't looking good..."

    So I end up with the service mgr, who is (or feigns) complete ignorance of all things PAX. I sit in the lobby and call Michelin, and hand him the phone. Then he claims that to "inspect" the tires they must be dismounted from the rim, inspected for material wear, damage, etc. and that all 2 employees they have who can work on a PAX tire are out today, and I must come back Monday. In addition, he told me that it takes "3 hours" per tire to change. I'm thinking "All this for a tread-wear issue?" Doubtful. My BS meter pegs. I call other local Honda dealership, same deal. Can't help today. Oh, and $1200 for new set of 4. The attitude/message sent by the Honda dealership's employees was clearly that this could not be fixed by warranty, or at least would be a painful process for me to get an inspection, and my only option was to fork out $1200 for a new set. I even asked point-blank if they had seen other PAX issues, and was met by claims of ignorance about any issues that might exist.

    I left, with appt. to return Monday PM. But I'm thinking this is crap. I'd already called Honda America, and was told simply, "Deal with Michelin". So I called Michelin back to ask some more questions, about what they expected mileage to be, and if there was even any hope of any kind of warranty. They told me that Michelin expected the tires to last 45K, and that warranty would depend on inpsection. As a last ditch, I got the list of all non-dealership PAX vendors in the area, which included a Discount Tire location about 30 miles away.

    I called them up, and verified that they work on PAX, and had some in stock. Was there 45 min later. Explained situation. By luck, I got the mgr helping me as they were busy. Less than 15 minutes later, he had inspected my tires, talked to Michelin, and determined that I was entitled to a 56% discount on 4 new tires. Total bill for 4 new PAX was under $725, including road hazard and installation. Installed in less than 2 hours, and the van drives like new.

    Lessons learned:

    1. I like my Odyssey, but hate Honda dealerships. They have been unhelpful, untruthful (at point of sale), and incompetent (not only wrt tires, but other issues I've had with the van).

    2. Michelin's customer service rocks.

    3. PAX tires drive SO much better when new. They are good driving tires, and I don't mind having them on the van.

    4. My next van won't have them. Benefit doesn't outweigh the hassle. I travel in the Western US, and am frequently long distances from dealers who have PAX equipment, let alone tires.

    5. After owning 3, won't buy Honda again, in part because of their service/backing of PAX tires on a premium vehicle.
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    Gotta disagree and will continue to do so until someone can actually show me evidence to the contrary. So, if you can point to an auction where a set of PAX wheels is being sold anywhere near $1,000, I'll gladly retract my statements

    I've gotta back Shipo up on this. I'm old enough to remember the Michelin TRX debacle - another metric rim and expensive, limited supply, monopoly tire situation. Take-off versions of those wheels in good condition rotted on the back pages of Auto Traders (pre-eBay days) across the country.

    If someone is considering a PAX swap-out, my advice is to assume that you'll get ZERO dollars for them when you do your calculations to see it the swap is cost effective for you. If you get a couple hundred on eBay (which I also doubt), consider it a bonus. eBay shipping of a set of 4 wheels would be a hassle, and you and the bidder would pay that fixed cost too. There won't be much bidding headroom left.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Disagree with what? Oh, that's right, that's what you do. Shipo, I wasn't the one who claimed that a set of PAX was worth X dollars. I have no idea what they might be worth.

    Your pointing to some junky stuff on ebay proves nothing.
  • luckylouluckylou Posts: 308
    Hi azfj60
    A couple years ago we bought a new 2006 Honda Odyssey Touring.
    We had vibration on the run flat tires , it was a huge headache to have the dealer do any work to correct the problem.
    At the 3000 miles my wife took the van to the dealer for oil and filter and they refuse to do it because they said it should be done at the 5000 miles.
    Today we no longer own a Honda of any kind nor ever again.

    Lou
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    I read my PAX tire for the first time today (when I was checking tire depth and pressure in preparation for my trip). Would you believe that Honda assigns a "treadwear rating" of 500 on these tires? I know that treadwear ratings are bogus, but 500? That's insane!
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "Disagree with what? Oh, that's right, that's what you do."

    Sorry, can't dignify that bilge with a response.

    "Shipo, I wasn't the one who claimed that a set of PAX was worth X dollars. I have no idea what they might be worth."

    Are you suggesting that I claimed they were "worth X dollars"? Please enlighten me as to where I wrote that and how much I claimed they'd be worth.

    IIRC, all I've said is that they aren't worth $1,000, or anywhere near that mark for that matter, and to back that point up I've provided references that are real world and easy to confirm. Can you say the same?
  • azfj60azfj60 Posts: 15
    Actually, that's not Honda, but Michelin, and that number seems kind of hard to interpret, other than Michelin thinks that the treadlife of the PAX is in the 72-92nd percentile of tread life within it's product lineup. Does not translate directly into miles.

    TreadWear Grade
    Below 200=15% of Tires
    201 - 300=25% of Tires
    301 - 400=32% of Tires
    401 - 500=20% of Tires
    501 - 600=6% of Tires
    above 600=2% of Tires
  • That's an ugly story azfj60! I love the PAX on my RL. I also agree the drive and handling is superior to the standard tires. But when I hear stories like that I have to think twice about getting them on a new Ody. Good thing you had a discount Tire store in the area. I have several non-honda dealers near me who service PAX so that's where I'd go if I needed new tires.

    Although I must say, Acura seems to handle it better. They admit their "support" for the tires is not up to speed yet and they don't always have a tech available to do it. For that reason they always have a complete set already mounted and ready to go. They do a full wheel swap for you and can have you out the door in 45 minutes. Once gone, they then work to get your old wheels remounded for the next guy. The strategy seems to work fine. I've seen it implemented on some other folks cars. Not sure why Honda doesn't do that. It's the same company.

    By the way, on a related note; I've seen video on the internet that shows a technican breaking down and remounting a PAX tire in about 4 minutes. He wasn't even breaking a sweat. I don't know why it takes your Honda dealer 3 hours to replace a tire if they have the equipment. The PAX tires are not THAT different. It's one extra step!
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    I never implied anything of the kind. IIRC, it was another poster who said that a set of PAX assemblies would be worth a grand.

    As I said, I have no idea what they might be worth.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    You had a bad experience with one store and now "...hate Honda dealerships[?]"

    Agree that anyone who travels the rural West would be well advised to steer clear of PAX.
  • Agree that anyone who travels the rural West would be well advised to steer clear of PAX

    Absolutely, I think the tires (and the concept) are good, but the support for these tires stinks and is spotty in many areas. If planning a trip through Nevada I would definitely have "spare tire" on my supply list right up there along with drinking water, first aid kit, etc.

    These PAX tires are best used for urban environments, IMO. That's where their value probably outweighs the negatives. Anyone who ever got a flat on the Major Deegan Expressway in the Bronx (I did years ago) would surely appreciate having RFT's.

    http://www.nycroads.com/roads/major-deegan/

    That's just an example. Most highways in the North East are old and have converted their shoulders to drive lanes. Plus, it's just not a good idea to be stuck on the side of a road in some places, if you know what I mean.

    I've moved my family away from that madness, but many places here in Florida aren't much better. I want RFT's on ALL the cars my wife and girls drive.
  • azfj60azfj60 Posts: 15
    nah, not just one bad experience. Two local dealers and a local Honda Service Center. I'm 0/3 for good service. Enough to make me want to take my money to Toyota and give them a try next time...

    Not to drag this on, but on my '05, it's been in 4 times for the AC (aka "Life Support" in AZ), twice for alignment, once for windshield, twice for rear bumper popping out, lost track of how many times they've tried to fix the glove box, still need to take in for creaking b-pillar, and a bunch of other stuff). I'm really a pretty reasonble guy wrt to this stuff, but my Chrysler was better quality-wise :surprise:
  • I'm sure you realize Toyota really isn't much better, statistically speaking. I have a Toyota Sienna right now. I had it in the shop 4 times to fix the electric rear hatch, eventhough I already diagnosed the problem myself and suggested the source of the problem each time I brought it in.

    In other words, it's not the car (all cars have flaws), it's the people servicing it. You think the guys working at your local Toyota dealership are any better then the guys at Honda? Best thing to do is go with the odds and get a car that requires the least amount of service (per Consumer Reports compiled statistics, etc.). A good service dept is one you don't have to visit :)
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Every dealer I contacted last week told me 1-2 hours PER TIRE. Every one told me I had to leave the car.
  • I don't doubt you Vinny. But here's a video from Hunter showing how to use their tire changer with a pax tire. I timed it. It took the guy 6 1/2 minutes to remove and reinstall the tire. And that was with him taking time to talk to you as he did it. It's just pathetic that a Honda tech needs 2 hours to remove a tire that a guy did in 6 minutes. Check it out.

    http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/training/paxvideo/zoom.cfm?size=l&vid=Pax_3500- _Strap_400x300_20f60q&title=Alternative%20PAX%20Service%20Procedure%20for%20TC35- 00
  • azfj60azfj60 Posts: 15
    I'm sure you realize Toyota really isn't much better, statistically speaking. I have a Toyota Sienna right now. I had it in the shop 4 times to fix the electric rear hatch, eventhough I already diagnosed the problem myself and suggested the source of the problem each time I brought it in.

    In other words, it's not the car (all cars have flaws), it's the people servicing it. You think the guys working at your local Toyota dealership are any better then the guys at Honda? Best thing to do is go with the odds and get a car that requires the least amount of service (per Consumer Reports compiled statistics, etc.). A good service dept is one you don't have to visit


    Got any suggestions? According to CR, both Honda and Toyota are tops.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Repeated poor dealer experience coupled with product dissatisfaction would drive me away too.

    Quality issues seem to be a crapshoot. My '05 Touring has been in for a few things while my wife's '05 Pilot has never had to go back. It's the only totally defect-free new vehicle we've ever bought. Our dealer is pretty good overall.
  • azfj60azfj60 Posts: 15
    Every dealer I contacted last week told me 1-2 hours PER TIRE. Every one told me I had to leave the car.

    Yep, same story. Find a tire retailer, if possible. I get the feeling they change more of these than the dealerships. From the time I drove up on a Saturday afternoon to when I left was a tad over 2 hours, including waiting in line, inspection, phone call to Michelin, wait my turn in line, etc.
  • Got any suggestions? According to CR, both Honda and Toyota are tops.

    Well, another choice is to move upscale. The dealership experience is very much proportional to the price of the average car sold. Unfortunately, these Honda Ody Touring vans are expensive enough that they should be sold at an Acura dealership. I have the same problem with my Sienna XLE Limited. I paid about $40k for it. It should be sold at the Lexus dealership for that price. Lux brands just don't sell minivans. I don't know why. That's a whole other thread.

    Problem is, you are going to the same place where they service $14k Civics. And, the fact is, the vast majority of the cars they sell and service at your Honda dealership are probably in that price range. 60% of Honda's sales are under $20K cars. It's a problem for Honda selling such an expensive car in the same place. Your expectations regarding treatment are higher, and rightfully so. You're just not their typical customer and they're not prepared to deal with you.

    So what are my suggestions? Take a Valium before visiting your Honda or Toyota dealer next time and count the days when your family can outgrow a minivan. It will make the inevitable go much easier. That's what I do :)
  • azfj60azfj60 Posts: 15
    I've got 10+ years before I'm out of a minivan. I agree with you regarding the dealerships, and same service folks working on civics and tourings, but what can you do? If Lexus or Acura sold a minivan, I'd have already bought one...
  • I hear you bro. That's one of the reasons I still haven't pulled the trigger and bought a new minivan. Had an 01 Ody, then an 04 Sienna, and now looking for something new. But, my kids are all in High School now and I know I'm only a couple years away from being done with this stuff. I'm toying with the idea of an Acura MDX as a "transition" vehicle. It's a 7 seater (sort of). We don't take family trips with all 5 of us much anymore (sad to say) so a cramped 3rd row isn't a huge problem. I'm on the fence here. My wife says she wants to have a van burning party when we get rid of our last one. Sounds fun but I think I'll try and sell it instead :)
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    I had previously reported that my 06 Ody Touring had 30K miles and that I was likely to get to around 35K before the wear bars were visible. Realizing I probably needed to replace all 4 before yearend, I went ahead and called Michelin, complained about the poor treadware, had them set up a file, and then I went to my Honda dealer yesterday.

    They inspected my tires (3/32 wear confirmed), called Michelin, and got them to pay for 25% of the replacement now. My Honda dealer happens to keep a complete set in stock, and they typically charge $200 per set as a direct swap (kind of like the Acura dealer described above). So, I just got 4 new PAX tires installed for $650 cost to me, plus a free future oil change for the added hassle and because I am just an all around nice guy.

    So, not all dealer experiences are poor. And Michelin did okay also, in spite of the noted warts and issues with the PAX system.

    Now I need to start scheming so I get my next 4 for $650 in about 18 months!! LOL.
  • Such a nice guy they just couldn't resist helping you out.

    Michelin has always been good as a company to work with (for me anyway). Even this fiasco with PAX isn't really a problem with Michelin or the PAX concept. It was just poorly implemented and supported by the Honda dealerships. Had every Honda dealer in America had a tire changer and a few sets of tires in stock this would be less of an issue. A $10-15k investment for a business that probably has a cashflow of about $8 mil a month. Give me a break!
  • I have a 05 Ody Touring w/ 60,054 miles and need 4 new tires. No big deal deal except this will be the 3rd set of tires for my van. That's right 12 tires in two yrs.I have just been informed that as long as my tires have 2/32 of tread they are covered if they have a nail or something that causes them to go flat. Also now they can use old rims to mount the pax tires on note the price drop to around 200 bucks per tire.
  • What do you mean "old rims" neogeo? Has Honda been forcing you to buy new wheels with each tire set? That can't be what you meant.

    Did you get credit on the early tire wear? Others seem to be successful getting prorated refunds for wear under 40k miles. Sounds like you are getting 30k
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "What do you mean "old rims" neogeo? Has Honda been forcing you to buy new wheels with each tire set? That can't be what you meant."

    Unfortunately I suspect that's exactly what he meant. I've heard stories of dealers charging $600 and up per tire/wheel assembly for a replacement. :cry:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • You know, forget about PAX for a second. This isn't good to hear these stories. It's really making me think twice about buying ANY Honda vehicle again with or without PAX tires. I had an 01 Ody and really can't complain too much except they refused to admit they had a problem with the sensitivity of the reverse sensors on the side electric doors. Said I was the only one having the problem but it was magically fixed on the second gen. All car makers do that stuff. But these stories of how they take advantage of customers with these PAX tires are over the line.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    There have been several folks who had to buy entire assemblies (whether this was due to shady dealers or another reason is not clear). Such reports have dropped off this year as PAX machines have become more widespread.

    Your point is well taken - Honda dropped the ball on PAX and doesn't seem to be doing much to recover. The fact that they will be optional on the Touring and not offered on the Accord indicates, at least to me, that they are (strongly) hedging their bets.

    Or, perhaps, they're trying to do what that they should have done at the outset: have service/support in place before pushing the product.
  • There have been several folks who had to buy entire assemblies (whether this was due to shady dealers or another reason is not clear). Such reports have dropped off this year as PAX machines have become more widespread

    So what would they do with the "old" perfectly good wheels? Did they give them back to you? What are you going to do with 2 sets. Did they resell them and give you no credit for them? Man, that's an ugly story. Someone tell me that ain't true.

    perhaps, they're trying to do what that they should have done at the outset: have service/support in place before pushing the product.

    Whether you like these RFT's or not, no one can argue with that.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    As the old adage states, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". More and more I have been hearing these stories of dealer arrogance from the likes of Toyota, Lexus and Honda, and while I don't think they're any worse than any other dealer network for another manufacturer per-se, this kind of thing doesn't go a long way toward bolstering that hard earned reputation it took them years to establish.

    Another old adage states, "Those who don't study history are destined to repeat it". The longer this PAX debate continues, the more it resembles the TRX debacle, and both brought to you by Michelin. It seems that they don't study their own history. Please understand, I feel I must give Michelin credit for "thinking outside the box" and trying new things, unfortunately the tire infrastructure and sizing schemes are just too well established for a company to try to launch a new entry to the market, an entry that isn't compatible with anything else out there.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Shipo---some excellent points you've made.

    I do admit to an inherent Honda bias as noted by the cars I have owned....

    1982 Civic sedan
    1983 Accord hatch
    1986 Accord sedan
    1994 Accord sedan
    1995 Passport (A lemon, and an Isuzu)
    1999 Accord sedan
    1999 Civic Si coupe
    2000 Acura NSX
    2003 Accord 6spd coupe
    2005 Acura RL
    2006 Odyssey Touring
    Planning to get a 2008 Accord 6spd coupe soon

    I have dealt with 8 different Honda dealers while living in 5 states. None of them was/is perfect. But I've had acceptable or better service every single time. Although my ownership experiences haven't been perfect (my latest foray with PAX a good example), overall the Honda's I've owned have been reliable and fun to drive. (But the most mileage I've ever put on one is 82,000 miles, and I tend to trade when I approach 65,000 miles). In most cases my Hondas have had very good resale value, in spite of the fact that almost all were manual transmissions.

    I think it helps if the owner/consumer is informed, educated, reasonable, and does his/her own research so that they aren't relying on the dealer for every shred of information. Just as there some unscrupulous Honda dealers, I have found the large majority to be honest and upfront.
  • No, a conventional tire machine will not break the bead of a PAX tire and rim.

    Regards, JEff
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    References?
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    IIRC, at least one company makes a PAX "adapter" to convert a regular machine. Can't recall the price and don't claim to know how well it might work.
  • "What do you mean "old rims" neogeo? Has Honda been forcing you to buy new wheels with each tire set? That can't be what you meant."

    Yes, that can be what he meant. Up until early this year, when my local Honda dealer obtained a PAX tire-mountng machine, the only option was to buy the tire and wheel assembly. As I didn't need new tires at the time I enquired (when I was looking at buying an Odyssey Touring model and was concerned about what I was reading about the PAX system) I did not puruse the issue of any credit for the old rims (with worn-out tires attached since the dealer couldn't dismount them).

    At that time I made my purchase decision based on switching over to conventional rims and tires when it came time to replace the tires, but now that my dealer has the machine I think I'll stick with the PAX. And my doughnut spare.

    This dealer is still the only 1 of 3 Honda dealers in my metropolitan area who has the PAX machine.

    Regards, JEff
  • "References?"

    My local tire dealers and the 3 Honda dealers in my metropolitan area. I checked with a lot of them before buying, with misgivings about the PAX, an Odyssey Touring model. Your references otherwise?

    In re-confirming this I was pleasantly surprised to find that Michelin now lists 10 tire dealers within 10 miles of me and 47 dealers within 20 miles. A year ago there was 1 dealer within 20 miles. This is great news!

    The bad news is that one of those dealers who I called this morning couldn't give me a price because he couldn't determine what tire I needed. He said he'd only had the machine a month and a half and wasn't yet familiar with tires, but he had learned already that it was a difficult job to change them.

    Regards, JEff
  • The bad news is that one of those dealers who I called this morning couldn't give me a price because he couldn't determine what tire I needed. He said he'd only had the machine a month and a half and wasn't yet familiar with tires, but he had learned already that it was a difficult job to change them.

    It's scary how pathetic these technicians can be (or what liers these dealerships can be). It's just a tire! This isn't rocket science. There's one extra step that requires you to reseat the inner ring. It takes 10 seconds to do that with the machine and the special roller attachment. I've seen those videos on the internet of a dismount and remount of a PAX tire. It looks the same to me. I used to work for a gas station when I was a teenager. Changed many tires in my day. It's just not as big a deal as some dealers are making it out to be.
  • It's just a tire! ... I've seen those videos on the internet of a dismount and remount of a PAX tire. It looks the same to me.

    Maybe. Maybe not. There are some unique aspects about the PAX mounting, how significant those aspects are I don't know. One obvious difference is that the PAX wheels and tires don't provide that nice big 'lip' on the rim and curved sidewall on the tire. The PAX tire sidewalls run vertically straight down to the wheel rim which doesn't have a lip - no nice big 'valley' at the tire-wheel meeting point into which to insert a tool. I haven't seen those videos you talk about. Can you provide some URLs?

    Changed many tires in my day.

    I hear you! I remember being a poor college kid and laying the wheel on the floor along the wall of the garage, putting a jack with the base on the side wall and the bumper hook under a pipe running horizontally along the wall, and breaking the bead by 'jacking-up' the pipe! I wonder if that would work with a PAX?

    Regards, JEff
  • Very interesting "technique" you had for changing tires. Your gas station didn't have a tire changer? You definitely get an A for effort!

    Here's one of those videos I was talking about. It's meant to be a training video for a Hunter' Tire changer. The guy dismounted and remounted the tire on this video in 7 minutes and 5 seconds. And THAT was with him taking time to talk to you and explain what he was doing. From what I could see, it wasn't any different then changing a regular tire, except for the extra step to seat and unseat the inner ring. There's a special roller that you must have for this changer to do that. Big deal!

    http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/training/paxvideo/index.cfm?v=4
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "My local tire dealers and the 3 Honda dealers in my metropolitan area. I checked with a lot of them before buying, with misgivings about the PAX, an Odyssey Touring model. Your references otherwise?"

    You missed my point. I absolutely agree that a conventional tire machine is completely incapable of changing a PAX tire, however, my point was that it is my understanding that a conventional machine can simply break the bead on the sensor side allowing the removal of the sensor.

    FWIW, I searched for the post or posts from folks who've performed the switch from PAX to GFTs and had the sensors swapped and was unable to find them. That said, I just browsed through the Michelin web site and found an illustration of the cross section bead detail of a PAX wheel and tire assembly and while I could certainly be wrong, I see no reason why a conventional tire machine couldn't separate the tire bead from the wheel.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
Sign In or Register to comment.