Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Did you get a great deal? Let us know in the Values & Prices Paid section!
Meet your fellow owners in our Owners Clubs

Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

1222325272831

Comments

  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    are not nice.

    Krzys
  • Thanks to all of you for comments on the PAX Pox! I have just now replaced the PAX setup on my 2005 Ody with new wheels/tires and will describe below my process:

    Issues:
    1. Honda dealer wanted over $1400 to replace the PAX tires. He refused to even talk about considering replacing the wheels for installing non-PAX tires.
    2. Michelin has only one tire that fits the PAX wheel and these tires are dangerous in wet or snowy conditions. Also, they're nearly worn out at 24,000 miles.
    3. In my area there is only a Honda dealer who can change the tires (Fort Collins, CO) if I get a flat. The dealer says he would need the car all day and 3-4 days notice to change all the tires.
    4. PAX tires are rough riding with little give on bumps, railroad crossings, etc. Worthless in snow and ice. Hydroplane at >55mph in moderate standing water.

    Use models for Run Flat tires as I see it in order of importance:
    1. Racing.
    2. Car is driven most of the time in large cities and east of the Mississippi or on the west coast.
    3. Driver frequents neighborhoods with gangs and/or lots of road debris.
    4. Soccer mom who must get the kiddies to their games, school, doctor appt's no matter what.
    5. Car is driven mostly in dry conditions and usually below 55 mph.

    Since I don't fit in these use models and didn't realize this until the tires had about 10,000 miles on them, I decided a complete swap-out of the PAX Pox was in order.

    I left the PAX tires/wheels intact should someone want these. Contact me if you are interested and we can work out someway to get them to you without shipping.

    What I bought for $1423 are the following:
    1. Set of four wheels: 1780BYM405120S72 BEYERN MESH 17x80 5/120 ET40 CB72 SILVER () See http://tinyurl.com/3d8mkn
    2. Set of four tires: Goodyear Assurance Triple-Tread 80,000 All-Weather 225/65R17
    3. Set of four TPM's from Honda at tire dealer's cost.
    4. Set of four Excaliber #81962 hub rings.
    5. Reused Honda hub caps by taping them to larger size to fit new wheels that have larger hub diameter.
    6. Lifetime spin balance, repairs, replacement, and rotation of tires at any Discount Tire dealer. Lifetime guarantee on wheels.

    Gains over thte PAX setup:
    1. Now have a choice of All-Weather tires in the future.
    2. PAX tire/wheel combination weighed 73 lbs each and new combo weighs 54 lbs each.
    3. Can get a tire change anywhere at minimum cost. Honda dealer is out of the loop.
    4. New tires have 11/32nds tread depth and 80,000 mile guarantee.
    5. Much softer ride with the new tires. Traction in snow is an unknown, but will report on later when I have data.

    Recommendations:
    1. Make sure dealer installs hub rings, otherwise the tires will shimmy at high speeds.
    2. Make sure the Honda hub caps are tight in the wheel. (Ask me how I know)
    3. Leave your PAX wheel setups original as there may be a class action lawsuit where Honda will buy back the PAX Pox.

    Misc:
    New tires have a load rating of 102H which yields a weight carrying capacity of 1885 lbs at 35 psi.
    PAX tires have a load rating of 104T which yields a weight carrying capacity of 1984 lbs at 44 psi.
    The new wheels have a load rating of 1700 lbs. (With this as the limiting load item, gross goes to 6800 lbs max. Full fuel plus two adults plus Ody = 4900 lbs)
    A jack came with my Ody and I still need to buy a spare to replace the carrousel I never use.
    The new wheels have an offset of 40 mm versus the PAX wheels that have an offset of 35 mm. This means that the outside width of the tires went from 76 3/4 in wide to 77 1/8 inch wide (front). One of the reasons for going with a 225 tire rather than a 235 tire.
    Speedometer error went from reading 1.5% too high to right on. (Used GPS for measuring at 30, 50, 70 and 80 mph).

    I will give a progress report after going from Colorado to Texas next month and after driving in snow and standing water.

    Jack
  • Oops! I forgot to provide pictures. See

    http://picasaweb.google.com/flyjackoli/PAXTireReplacement

    Jack
  • I guess I got lucky. After weeks of trying to find out a good 3rd party vendor for wheels and a set up for the TMP that would still function, I went back to the dealership. I explained to them that $1400 was rediculous and I would rather resolve it with them vs having to jump into the class action suit still brewing in Ca. I told them that I didn't want to void my warrantee on my vehicle nor have to look to another dealership for further purchases if they weren't willing to stand behind a product that they sold me.

    To my suprise, they opted to charge me for only one of the four tires. OTD, my cost for all 4 tires, alignment, tax... was $397. :)

    Although it took 6 weeks of my educating myself on this situation and two separate and different approaches to the dealership, this was the best outcome. Now, to figure out what I'm going to do in 19K miles when this set runs out!
  • Jack,

    "Issues:
    ...
    2. Michelin has only one tire that fits the PAX wheel and these tires are dangerous in wet or snowy conditions. Also, they're nearly worn out at 24,000 miles.
    ..."


    Actually, Michelin has 2 PAX tires for the Odyssey - Energy LX4, the standard tire, and X-Ice for winter conditions. I don't know how good the X-Ice tires are in snow and on ice, but they do have a 2nd tire intended for such conditions.

    My LX4s lasted 40,000 miles. Many people are reporting a lot less, but I'm far from the only person who has gotten reasonable wear from them.

    I'm not sold on PAX tires, and I haven't made up my mind yet what I'll do for replacing them in the next month or so, but reasonable discussion of PAX issues doe require accurate information.

    Regards, JEff
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Jeff:

    You're one of the lucky ones. I rotated my PAX tires religiously at 5k miles and checked the pressure weekly. They still only lasted 35k miles. The only reasons I bought another PAX-equipped van is that I now live on the east coast and drive entirely in well-populated areas and I know up front that I won't keep the van after the tires go bald. If I still lived in the southwest or had to keep the van longer than 3 years, I never woud have considered PAX again.
  • Let's see- You are suggesting that I buy another set of Michelin tires for winter at $200+ apiece plus $75 to swap each tire twice a year. Somehow that doesn't compute for me ;-)

    And, the 24,000 miles on my Ody with 4-5/32nds tread remaining is accurate for all four tires. Even at 10,000 miles on these tires traction in ice, snow, or standing water was abysmal...

    Sorry, but that's about as reasonable and accurate as I can be.

    Jack
  • Jack,

    "Let's see- You are suggesting that I buy another set of Michelin tires for winter at $200+ apiece plus $75 to swap each tire twice a year. Somehow that doesn't compute for me"

    I'm suggesting no such thing. I'm suggesting nothing more than I wrote in my post - that Michelin makes 2 types of tire for the PAX system, not 1 as you had written.

    Regards, JEff
  • Pax could fading soon.

    http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2007/11/14/afx4339121.html

    According to Forbes:
    "PARIS (Thomson Financial) - Michelin confirmed it is to end the development of its PAX tyre system in view of low demand, advances in technology and changing priorities of car manufacturers.

    The company's press office told Thomson Financial News that it will continue to make the PAX in order to service vehicles already equipped with the product, but will stop research and development work.

    Specialist website tirepress.com had earlier cited reports that Philippe Denimal, head of Michelin (other-otc: MGDDF.PK - news - people )'s technology centre, had said the company would halt further research for the PAX system.

    [email protected]

    gt/lht"

    Buyers of new cars might consider avoiding Pax because they will probably become even more poorly supported, and hard to find than now. Years in the future, if one buys Pax, carefully check the production date on the tire. It could be many years old since sales are slow and an old one could sit on the shelf for a long time. Michelin TRX tires had a similar fate. Still available but expensive, hard to find and not improved in years.
  • Jack,

    Thank you for the PAX info, your timing is great.

    Two questions for you:

    1) Do you like the ride on your Goodyear Assurance Triple-Tread All-Weather?
    2) Is the purpose of the excaliber hubs to leverage 17" wheels?

    BTW, 2008 ODY do not leverage the PAX system.

    Thx again,

    Patrick
  • Patrick, I love the way the Goodyear's ride! Such a difference. I drove them in snow this past week, but it was not icey enough to really test the traction. I need deeper, colder snow and ice to really be able to report on the traction. I was definitely better than the PAX tires in the little snow I drove in.

    The Excaliber hub rings are for centering the wheels on the Ody hubs. The wheel hub diameter is about a 1/4 inch too large a diameter for the Ody hub centering circle and without the hub rings the wheel is centered only by the lug bolts. The lug bolts do not center the wheel well enough to prevent shimmy, thus the need for hub rings.

    I did not have the 17 inch wheels already. I wanted 60 or 65 series profile for a softer ride and there were more choices of wheels and tires (at a lower price) in the 17 inch wheel/tire combination than with the 18 inch combination.

    BTW, the same wheel manufacturer has a number of wheels that will fit the Ody. Maybe some of them will fit snug enough to not require hub rings. I got the wheels you see because I liked the design....

    Jack
  • fnxfnx Posts: 1
    I just swapped out the PAX tires from my 2005 Odyssey, with 17" wheels taken-off from an Acura RL.
    The RL wheels spec: Bolt Pattern 5-120; offset: 55mm;

    Tire spec: Kumho Solus KH16 235/60TR17 (listed at tiretack $80); rolling diameter: ~28"

    I got the wheel/tire/sensor package from a guy (the wheels are used). The wheels look go. The tires are quiet. The sensors work (not on the first try, there were some mix-up). You can contact Mike [email protected] or 408-829-5302. He is located in San Jose. I did a local pickup.

    I don't know what the offset is on the original PAX, but with 55mm, I have no problem. I double checked the speed with my GPS, the speedometer reads true.

    on the way I learned these facts:
    - Palo Alto Honda dealer, waits $95 for fixing a puncture and $285 per tire for replacement.
    - my Honda dealer, told me they cannot replace PAX with stock Honda wheels, because there are not combination of wheels and tire that has the correct rolling diameter. (lie)
    - Local Wheelworks store was willing to fix me with a set of after-market wheels, until they talked the Honda dealer to get the bolt pattern and details. The dealer told them that the bolt pattern are offset are special, and nothing will fit. I thank them because they were at least nice enough try.
    - If you buy new wheels and tires from Tirerack, they will mount and balance them for you and if you car use a TPMS, they will also install the sensor for. That is until I mention that I have a Touring, then they say there are nothing in their stock that will fit that car. (lie)
  • Jack,
    What are the TPMs that you refer to?
    Thanks,
    Tony
  • zac7zac7 Posts: 2
    Just came from Discount Tire. They checked my tread and called Michelin to register my situation. Have a 2006 Odyssey Touring with PAX tires 14001 miles and 5/32 even tread remaining. Michelin supposedly set up a file for my complaint and I'm to go back in when I have 3/32 or less. Do you know what mileage Michelin expects from these tires? I expect to be at 3/32 within 2-3000 miles. One would think that with a wear rating of 500 on the sidewall of these tires that the tread life would be exceptionally long but I'm finding it just the opposite.

    Fro the sounds of it, you'd recommend going to the Honda dealer as opposed to some place like Discount Tire where they actually can work on the tires? Would be nice to just swap out wheel assemblies but my whells are like new..no scratches etc. Only one Discount Tire in all of Houston that can handle the PAX.
  • I would call your local Honda, American Honda (in CA), and Michelin. Log a case with them see what they can do for you.14K is light. If you have a Hondacare warranty, you might void it by putting on the EX rims, tires and tmp's. I hope Honda has a alternative next time I have to buy tires. Good Luck.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Yes, I would recommend that you work through your Honda dealer. They still have to work with Michelin, since the tires are warranteed by the tire manufacturer. The important thing is, you've already contacted Michelin and they have set up a case number for you. With your abyssmal mileage, Michelin should pony up at least 50 to 70% of the cost of your new PAX tires. The PAX rep on the phone told me that these tires should get 40 to 45K miles, which is a total crock.

    Are you saying that your Honda dealer does not have the equipment to service your PAX tires? If that's the case, you may not have any choice but to work through Discount Tire.

    Good luck. I got over double your mileage (a little over 30K), but even that is disappointing. You will notice that the van will drive substantially better once the new PAX tires are mounted. So I'm happy for the next 30K and then we start the whole process again....
  • Tony, the TPMS stands for Tire Pressure Measurement System. These valve stem/TPMS combination are about $35 ea at the Honda dealer if your Discount Tire guys buy them for you. I elected to just get new TPMS's rather than destroy the PAX tire setups. Trying to decide if I want to advertise the 4 PAX wheels/tires to sell or hold on to see what boils up with the PAX lawsuits.

    These Michelin tires are worthless in anykind of wetness or snow/ice. I have now driven in snow over a week now and these Goodyear's are wonderful. See my earlier report on size and type if interested.

    My spare wheel and tire set me back $200. The local Honda dealer refused to sell these to me so I found an outfit on eBay who got discounts on new Honda parts. The Honda dealer here is more than arrogant. The only time he will ever see me again is if there is a warranty item only he can handle.
  • Update on my original Nov 14 message:

    Thanks to all of you for comments on the PAX Pox! I replaced the PAX setup on my 2005 Ody in mid-Nov 2007 with new wheels/tires and will describe below my process:
    See http://picasaweb.google.com/flyjackoli/PAXTireReplacement for pictures.

    Issues:
    1. Honda dealer wanted over $1400 to replace the PAX tires. He refused to even talk about considering replacing the wheels for installing non-PAX tires.
    2. Michelin has only two types of tires that fit the PAX wheel and the stock tires(I had) were dangerous in wet or snowy conditions. Also, they were nearly worn out at 24,000 miles. If you want to see an interesting video on how dangerous a tire with 5/32nds or less of tread is go to: http://www.tirerack.com/videos/index.jsp?video=5
    3. In my area there is only a Honda dealer who can change the tires (Fort Collins, CO) if I get a flat. The dealer says he would need the car all day and 3-4 days notice to change the tires.
    4. PAX tires are rough riding with little give on bumps, railroad crossings, etc. Worthless in snow and ice. Hydroplane at >55mph in moderate standing water.

    Use models for PAX Run Flat tires as I see it in order of importance:
    1. Racing.
    2. Ody is driven most of the time in large cities and east of the Mississippi or on the west coast.
    3. Driver frequents neighborhoods with gangs and/or lots of road debris where one would not want to stop to change a tire.
    4. Soccer mom who must get the kiddies to their games, school, doctor appt's no matter what. And, a spouse who refuses to change a tire.
    5. Ody is driven mostly in dry conditions and usually below 55 mph.

    Since I don't fit in these use models and didn't realize this until the tires had about 10,000 miles on them, I decided a complete swap-out of the PAX Pox was in order.

    I left the PAX tires/wheels intact should someone want these. Contact me if you are interested and we can work out someway to get them to you without shipping.

    What I bought for $1700 are the following:
    1. Set of four wheels: 1780BYM405120S72 BEYERN MESH 17x80 5/120 ET40 CB72 SILVER () See http://tinyurl.com/3d8mkn
    2. Set of four tires: Goodyear Assurance Triple-Tread 65,000 All-Weather 225/65R17 (The jury is still out on these tires as I have a slight shimmy between 70 and 80 mph on smooth roads.) I may have to go with something like a Bridgestone or Michelin (non-PAX) that has less agressive tread design to totally eliminate the slight shimmy.
    3. Set of four TPM's from Honda at tire dealer's cost.
    4. Set of four Excaliber #81962 hub rings.
    5. Spare tire assembly (Honda dealer would not sell this to me. Had to buy one off eBay $200)
    6. Lifetime spin balance, repairs, replacement, and rotation of tires at any Discount Tire dealer. Lifetime guarantee on wheels.

    Gains over thte PAX setup:
    1. Now have a choice of All-Weather tires in the future.
    2. PAX tire/wheel combination weighed 73 lbs each and new combo weighs 54 lbs each.
    3. Can get a tire change anywhere at minimum cost. Honda dealer is out of the loop. I don't have to worry about a flat in the middle of nowhere out West.
    4. New tires have 11/32nds tread depth and 65,000 mile guarantee.
    5. Much softer ride with the new tires. Traction in snow is much, much better.

    Recommendations:
    1. Make sure dealer installs hub rings if wheel does not exactly fit the hub, otherwise the tires will shimmy at high speeds.
    2. Might leave your PAX wheel setups original as there may be a class action lawsuit where Honda will buy back the PAX Pox.
    3. If I had it to do over again I would get the 16X7 inch rim to give me even more choices on tires into the future.

    Misc:
    *A few months ago Michelin announced no further developement would be spent on PAX. Michelin will only make enough PAX tires to support what is already out there. Went by my friendly Honda dealer the other day and there were four 2008 Honda Odyssey Touring vans with the PAX tires. No 2008 Touring with conventional tires, Hmmmmm- Seems there are over 40,000 Tourings out there now-
    *New tires have a load rating of 102H which yields a per wheel weight carrying capacity of 1885 lbs at 35 psi. PAX tires have a load rating of 104T which yields a per wheel weight carrying capacity of 1984 lbs at 44 psi. The new wheels have a load rating of 1700 lbs each. (With this as the limiting load item, gross goes to 6800 lbs max. Full fuel plus two adults plus Ody = 4900 lbs)
    *A jack came with my Ody and the spare replaced the carrousel I never used.
    *The new wheels have an offset of 40 mm versus the PAX wheels that have an offset of 35 mm. This means that the outside width of the tires went from 76 3/4 in wide to 77 1/8 inch wide (front). (One of the reasons for going with a 225 tire rather than a 235 tire.)
    *Speedometer error went from reading 1.5% too high to right on. (Used GPS for measuring at 30, 50, 70 and 80 mph).
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "2. Set of four tires: Goodyear Assurance Triple-Tread 65,000 All-Weather 225/65R17 (The jury is still out on these tires as I have a slight shimmy between 70 and 80 mph on smooth roads.) I may have to go with something like a Bridgestone or Michelin (non-PAX) that has less agressive tread design to totally eliminate the slight shimmy."

    I just finished wearing out a set of Goodyear Assurance TripleTreds (see Note 1) on one of our vans and now that you mention it, I too noticed a slight shimmy between about 75 and 85 while I had these tires. I kind of chalked it up to the fact that the van now has over 150,000 miles on it and didn't really give the shimmy a second thought because I'm usually traveling at speeds just under 75.

    That said, I replaced the TripleTreds with a set of Cooper CS4 Tourings. FWIW, prior to the Coopers, I haven't used what I consider to be an off-brand set of tires since I put some unknown brand of tires on my 1966 Plymouth Valiant. Anyway, I kept running across posts on various minivan boards raving about the CS4s, both from a ride/handling/grip perspective as well as a cost perspective. After doing a little research I found that Cooper has just recently invested in some very new technology, technology that is used with the new Michelin Primacy MXV4 for instance, and decided to give them a try.

    I'm happy to report that if anything, the CS4s have even better snow traction than the TripleTreds (see Note 2), are quite a bit quieter (even though I didn't consider the TripleTreds all that loud), and best of all, the shimmy between 75 and 85 is gone. The only downside to the CS4s that I can make out is a very slight loss in steering response (I think, it's that slight).

    http://www.coopertire.com/html/products/tires_passenger.aspx?page=cs4_touring_hv- - -

    Best Regards,
    Shipo

    Note 1: My set of 215/65 R16 tires had almost exactly 65,000 miles on them, however, with winter looming large and their tread depth starting to wain, I yanked them even though I wouldn't have if the snow was done for the year.

    Note 2: We live on a cul-de-sac and the main road that our street is off of has a significant hill that starts immediately after you turn right off of our street, a hill that is virtually impossible to climb from a dead stop if there is any snow on the pavement. Never once in the five winters that we've lived here have I ever been able to climb that hill (when snow covered) without a running start (from the other direction), that is until I put the Cooper CS4s on the van. So far at least, I've easily climbed that hill with snow ranging from a dusting up to eight heavily rutted inches without a running start.
  • s4f4ms4f4m Posts: 19
    shipo,

    Thanks for the suggestion/review on the CS4's. I've been researching replacement tire options (other than RFTs) for my recently purchased Sienna AWD (Dunlop RFTs). I have a set of Goodyear TT's on a different car, and love them, but was disappointed that the TT's do not come in a compatible size for the Sienna. However, these Coopers do!

    I'll give them consideration in (hopefully) about 40k...got my fingers crossed. :)
  • Shipo, thanks for the info on the Cooper and Michelin. I think Michelin owns Coopers?

    Also, it was not clear to me that you put the Cooper CS4 tires on an Odyssey that had had PAX poxes on them-

    My latest on the slight shimmy:
    1.Honda dealer says put the original wheels back on, buy new PAX tires for $1400+, be happy
    2. Alignment shop says everything is in spec and Honda's are just a crap shoot with anything but Honda wheels and recommended tires.
    3. Tried running 36# tire pressure cold and that helps some.
    4. Monday will go to local dealer who has a Hunter GSP 9700 wheel balancer that can get down to the 5 gram balance tolerance specified in Honda Service Bulletin 04-066.
    5. Discount tire says they can guarantee satisfaction with the Bridgestone or Michelin tires as those tires are less aggressive than the Goodyear Triple-Tread
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    I put the Cooper CS4s on one of our Grand Caravans (I've been following this debate because our two DGCs have over a combined quarter of a million miles and we'll be needing/wanting at least one replacement minivan in the not too distant future).

    As for the various things you are being told:
    1) :P
    2) :P
    3) I typically run more like 38 in our vans (36 is the recommended pressure)
    4) A Road Force balance may very well help. Keep us posted on the results.
    5) That sounds wierd.

    Another thing to check the next time your van is off the ground. Spin your wheels and see if the radial integrity of the tires is true. When I rotated the TTs on our older van last spring I noticed that at least one of the tires was no longer perfectly round, kind of like the sidewall height was like 5.5" in most places and 5.6" in one spot. As the tires were quite long in the tooth by then I didn't worry about it. I'm wondering if that was the problem all along, hence my suggestion for you to check yours.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • The Goodyear on an Ody Touring un-natural act continued with my next to last effort being going to a shop in town that had a Hunter GSP 9700 wheel balancer to get an independent wheel balance in accordance with the Honda Service Bulletin 04-066. Apparently these balancers can be set up in relative mode or absolute mode. Absolute mode is harder to use in balancing so the shop had their machine set up in the relative mode which just checks to within about 1/4 oz accuracy. So much for the Service Bulletin. There were four shops in town that had these balancers and they all had them set to this "idiot" mode as they think it is "good enough" for most cars. This "balance" made no difference-

    One of the interim acts with the Goodyear's was to put them on a load check machine and it made no difference even though two of the Goodyear's were replaced because they were out of round. Nothing changed shimmy-wise after that change.

    So, Shipo, I followed your suggestion and put on the Cooper CS4's. That solved the problem of the slight shimmy above 70. The ride is much softer and quieter than with the Goodyear's as well. What I haven't been able to do yet is evaluate the Cooper's in snow and ice. Will give an update when that happens.

    BTW, the Cooper's are 235R65/17 and the Goodyears were 225R65/17. If I were to start from scratch I would use 16" wheels as there are a lot more choices for the 16" wheel. My speedometer now indicates about 1 mph slower than actual speed at 50 mph indicated on a GPS.
  • Well, last month I made my decision and opted to stick with the PAX tires. At 41,500 miles, down to the wear bars and with winter upon us, I got 4 new PAX tires and a 4-wheel alignment from my local Honda dealer for $1,172 including tax. (Where I live they tax only the material, not the labor, so the cost would be a bit more in places where the tax is on the total bill.) The breakdown was $1,082 for the tire replacement and $90 for the alignment. I'd prefer something more like $600 for a tire replacement, but I'm satisfied.

    I don't know whether it was the new tires or the alignment that did it, but the slight vibration I used to get at 60-65 mph and above is gone. I'm happy about that.

    Regards, JEff
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    1000 USD for tires is a lot of money, for a mini van.

    Krzys
  • I was really not sure about these PAX tires after reading all the negatives...that said... after experiencing PAX on a new (2000 mile) Honda Odessy 2007 ..I like them!!! traction in snow is very good. Ride is smooth and quiet. And what's best, is with all the pot holes in Chicago, I have NO FEAR of a flat. It is really a great comforter knowing that you will not need to get out and change a spare. For City driving, with all the "tire hazards" these tires must endure, PAX just may be a very good thing. One thought.. You can always buy a full sized extra spare tire for that once in a lifetime flat when you are 150 miles from a dealer or facility with the right equipment required to change a PAX tire.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Don't forget a jack and a back brace--those PAX assemblies weigh like something 84 pounds.
  • vinny,

    Jack yes, but then the PAX-equipped Odyssey's come with one.

    Regards, JEff
  • sasqsasq Posts: 1
    Has anyone looked into buying mounted wheels from a Canadian auto wrecker or Honda Parts dealer? Wouldn't they be a direct fit, or did Honda do something different with the setup on the Canadian Touring version?
  • Final report on 2005 Touring Ody swapout results going from PAX to Cooper CS4 Touring tires:

    These Cooper's continue to ride really well. The traction in snow is somewhere between the PAX and the Goodyear Triple Treads that I had tried. Too bad the Goodyears are so rough riding and wobbly on the road above 60 mph as their traction was really good.

    Anybody need a set of PAX wheels, tires with 5/32nds tread left, mounted complete? Contact me at [email protected]
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "These Cooper's continue to ride really well. The traction in snow is somewhere between the PAX and the Goodyear Triple Treads that I had tried."

    Interesting. We currently have one van on TripleTreds and another on the Cooper CS4s, and in a side-by-side test, the Coopers blow the Goodyears away in the snow. I wonder if different size tires perform differently (both of ours are 215/65 R16).

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Considiering that i work in the service departmentof a HONDA dealership, i hear a lot of complaints a bout them. The average person gets 30-40k miles out of a set depending on proper INFLATION, ROTATION and, of course, TIRE ROTATION.

    I wish people would stop complaining so much about it! YOU OWN A $40,000 VEHICLE!!! With a little research you would've seen that these tires are a METRIC size and usually used on European luxury cars. How about taking some responsablility as an OWNER of, in my opinion, the nicest van on the market. Did you know on a BMW X5 you have to replace the entire rotor on ever brake job? The Odyssey is not that expensive of a vehicle to own and it's not HONDA'S fault that; you were either to busy using this site to "jew" the dealership down on price to do some research on the vehicle or just to lazy.

    Luckily, for all of us, Honda has made the PAX tires an optional feature. Please note that they did not do this because they are "bad" tires. However, Honda takes pride in their customer service. They actually listen to what you want and don't want. It's obvious that you would rather have your wife and children on the side of a busy interstate at night instead of spending and extra $400. The choice is yours.... :mad: :P
  • I agree with you servicedude. I don't understand the cost argument people have. However, Honda didn't make it optional because the take pride in customer service. They made them optional because their are no less then 3 classaction suits against them PLUS Michelin discontinued the tire last fall. Mich will continue to make the tire for the forseeable future, however, the PAX program is officially now dead.

    I fault Michelin for this mess not Honda. They rolled out a new tire technology and didn't support it. Never required their Tire dealers to stock, or service it. Which made it hard to repair.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    TIRE ROTATION! NOW THERE'S SOMETHING I NEVER THOUGHT OF DOING!

    Where were you servicedude when I was driving my 05 Touring 150 miles east of El Paso and the next Honda PAX dealer was 200 miles away in Fort Worth?

    If only the PAX tire were capable of lasting 200 miles on the rim!
    If only the next PAX dealer's service department weren't going to be closed for another 62 hours (It was 5pm on Friday)!
    If only I had bought a van with regular tires--then I could have changed the tire myself (or my wife and children could have called AAA to put on the spare if they had been stranded).

    If only Honda had disclosed that PAX tires would last half as long, cost twice as much to replace, and be as rare as hen's teeth in many parts of the country!

    I agree with your comment that the Honda Odyssey is the nicest van on the market--that's why we currently own our fourth since 2001. That still doesn't mean that I'm happy that Honda failed to disclose the potential problems with PAX tires when they were extolling the virtues ("Your wife and kids won't get stranded on the side of the road"). (Unless the tire failure happens in a rural area, or at night, or over the weekend).

    By the way, as a BMW owner, I can tell you that the X5 comes with a warranty that covers the bad rotors up to 50k miles. That's right, they're free. Even if they weren't, a bad rotor wouldn't leave you stranded in the desert.

    You're right: we're lazy, cheap and irresponsisble. Have fun rotating our 84 lb PAX tires.
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    "The average person gets 30-40k miles out of a set depending on proper INFLATION, ROTATION and, of course, TIRE ROTATION."

    Could you enlighten me about difference between ROTATION and TIRE ROTATION?

    Krzys

    PS Somehow I think you have vested interest in making PAX fiasco look rosier than it really is.

    PS2 Please name European luxury cars that use PAX system:

    "With a little research you would've seen that these tires are a METRIC size and usually used on European luxury cars."

    Maybe they (European luxury manufacturers) learned a lesson with TRX? Another abandoned Michelin idea.
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    vinny,

    "Have fun rotating our 84 lb PAX tires."

    What difference does it make how much or how little they weigh? You don't have to lift them to rotate them.

    Regards, JEff
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    "What difference does it make how much or how little they weigh? You don't have to lift them to rotate them."

    No difference to Odyssey drivers. The weight affects Odyssey maintainers such as the gentlemen to whom I was responding. You missed the point of the jab.

    BTW, I rotated my tires religiously every 5k miles and my PAX tires were well into the wear markers at 35k miles. As I've said in previous posts, the lowest replacement cost I found was $1100--twice as much as a new set of non-PAX tires that would have lasted nearly twice as long (as opposed to the 10-15% replacement cost differential advertised by Honda dealers).

    I've never argued that PAX tires are a bad idea. However, my contention has always been that Honda failed to disclose the serious disadvantages of PAX: high replacement cost, poor availability, shortage of service centers, and lower tread life. How did I fix my PAX problem? I bought another PAX-equipped Odyssey, but only after I moved from the desert southwest to the east coast. In the densely-populated northeast, I can almost always find a PAX tire service center within the run-flat range of the tires or an open car rental agency when no PAX replacement is available. I've chosen to accept the trade-off of higher cost/lower tread life versus improved safety. The differene this time is that I made an informed decision--something Honda denied me the first time around. I would not have bought another PAX-equipped Odyssey if I still lived in Tucson.
  • Mike

    At the end of the day, we all can agree that the Honda Odyssey is a great vehicle Yes, there could be some Improvements; all in all it is a great vehicle.

    My ask for American Honda is to offer the owners of the Odyssey (2005-2007)an alternative to PAX tires for those they own them without voiding our (extended) warranty. I wish I would have know the following:
    1) Cost of replacement.

    I had no idea PAX tires are this expensive to replace and I did a fair amount of research prior to my purchase. Depending on the dealer, in Michigan four tires will cost you about $1200. In Chicago, four tires will cost you $1600 installed. I have seen them as high as $2000 for the PAX’s tires. An alternative is to buy regular tires, of my choice, from just about any one for $500 installed on the Odyssey EX-L

    2) Performance:
    My personal experience is 28K miles on my PAX tire when they should have been replaced. Not knowing much about PAX, I was amazed to replace the tires at 32K miles. By far the worst set of tires I have ever owned and with so-so performance.

    3) Service:
    You must go to the Honda Dealer because no one else has the parts or the equipment to repair or replace them, not even 12 Michelin dealers in Chicago land area. The dealer equipment cost is 15K alone. I hope you do have a flat over the weekend? Try to service your Vehicle on a non metropolitan area during non business hours. You will spend more than $400 for a tire, tow and hotel.

    Honda made a choice to manufacture a Mini Van with the PAX system. I firmly believe that Honda needs to resolve the issue of the PAX’s debacle. We, your customer, believes that we are taken to the cleaners as it relates to cost to value on the PAX tires system. Cost to Value is one of Honda’s strengths and it is why Honda has such a loyal following.

    Mike, I encourage Honda Customers to demand the best from you, the dealership, and America Honda (800-999-1009) and give us an option over PAX.
    Suggested Solutions:

    ---->Subsidize the cost of new PAX tires (Tactical)
    ---->Warranty non-PAX configuration (Strategic)
    ---->Trading in PAX for Non PAX Wheels and Rims

    I am sure there are several dozen options available.

    Mike, as the Edmunds spokesperson, why can I not buy Odyssey EX rims, tires and TSP’s and leverage on the Odyssey Touring Edition 2005? Maybe you can sell this to American Honda as a viable solution. With Honda changing tires and rims in 2008 model year, there is a perception that PAX system is not working. Please give your existing customer that same option.

    Remember customers’ satisfaction and loyalty, the loyalty keep us coming back to buy and service our cars.

    Sincerely a loyal Honda customer since 1988

    Patrick

    p.s. Mike, a new word for your vocabulary is “Negotiate”. :D
  • lechardlechard Posts: 2
    Great posting!!! As an owner of a 2005 Ody Touring with only 28K miles and in need of new tires to pass State Inspection, I second the motion that American Honda give us alternatives which would allow us other options than the PAX tires.
  • carguy74carguy74 Posts: 18
    hey guys, belle tire is the only place that i know of that will and can do pax tires. at least here in michigan. belle tire has the machine to do 4 tires within an hour or something like that. not sure how long it takes though. honda has now given the consumer the option to get vehicle with or without pax. this i know for sure. at first, honda was gonna put pax on all honda vehicles but decided not to go that route. besides all that, as far as i know, only the dealer and belle tire have the equipment to do pax tires.....how much belle tire charges, i don't know. but i do also know that they don't last very long-wears out very fast. the tires at the dealers are around 165.00 each... and if you need the internal ring, than that'll bring the price up to 200 per tire... bet seldom do you need the ring. if a dealer says you need a ring or all the rings replaced, ask to see them, either that or they just trying to sell u rings for no reason. only time the rings should be replaced is if there is damage to the ring. but remember, each technician has his own opinion on if he thinks the ring should be replaced or not....
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    The support ring only has to be changed in two instances:

    1) You drove with no (or very, very low) air pressure: you "ran flat."
    2) The tire store technician damaged it.

    I suppose you might damage it if you hit a very big pothole or log in the road, but it doesn't sit close behind the tread when things are properly inflated. Normal driving wouldn't do it.

    I've been to trade shows where tire mounting equipment was on display. Several companies were showing PAX-worthy machines. I asked one company rep if he could demonstrate the PAX procedure for me. He happended to have an Odyssey wheel and tire on hand.

    It's complicated. It took him, hustling all the way, a good 12 or 13 minutes. The ring has to come off and go back on during the process. There are fiddly little plastic wedges and they have to re-coat the inside of the new tire with a packet of approved gel.

    My local tire store, who sells a lot of Michelins, says they won't bother getting certified because the time spent changing-out a set of PAX tires is a big issue. He said that even if they ignored the cost of the machine, they still wouldn't make any money. They can mount three or more sets of normal tires in the same time. Internet tire sales have cut into their margins, he said, so sales volume (which is regulated by how many customers they can serve in a given day) is important to their profitability. No wonder PAX-certified shops are hard to find.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    How much distance was there between the ring and the tire? I'm asking because $100 to fix a flat is over the top expensive. I've considered plugging mine, but have heard the gap is too narrow to get the plug/tool into.

    Thanks.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Before you go plugging a damaged PAX tire yourself, you might want to call Michelin first. Depending on how many miles you have, they may replace the tire under warranty.
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    vinny,

    "No difference to Odyssey drivers. The weight affects Odyssey maintainers such as the gentlemen to whom I was responding. You missed the point of the jab.

    BTW, I rotated my tires religiously every 5k miles..."

    I think you missed my point. I rotate my PAX tires every 5,000 miles as well, when I change the oil and filter, and it's no more difficult than rotating the tires on my non-PAX car. The weight of the tire assembly is not relevant, one is no more or less effort than the other.

    Regards, JEff
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Jeff:

    You're right. I missed your point. Are you saying that the PAX assembly weighs the same as a standard tire and rim? Or are you saying that you don't lift them to rotate the tires? If it's the former, you're incorrect. The PAX assembly weighs a good 20 pounds more than the Michelin set-up off the EX-L. If you mean the latter, you must be using some kind of cart to roll around the tires? If you're doing the rotation yourself, I'm curious if you've had any problems with the TPMS? I've always used the dealer for rotations and oil changes.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Not that I have an Odyssey (I don't), however, I have rotated the tires on two of our TPMS equipped cars, and so far at least, I've not had a problem.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    TPMS creates no problems for tire rotations at home. As long as the same 4 sensors are on the same car, the system works it out by itself.

    Putting an entirely new sensor on the car is where the dealer and his scan-tool need to get involved.

    I nearly tweaked my back when I pulled a 75 lb PAX assembly off of an Odyssey once (the standard ones weigh 50 lbs). But if you don't jack it up too high, they roll from corner to corner and it isn't so hard.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    I've been getting my tires rotated and the oil changed by the dealer every 5k miles. I generally pay more than I would if I went to someone other than the dealer, but I was under the impression that the TPMS sensors needed to be programmed when moved to a different position. Now that I know the truth, I'll be going to the cheap place (and watching while they do the work).
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    Vinny,

    I'm saying I don't lift the tires to rotate them. I agree that the PAX tires and wheel assemblies weigh a lot more that conventional tire and wheel assemblies, but since I don't lift them who cares how much they weigh? I just roll them along the ground - they're round, they roll as easily as any other tire.

    The TPMS sensors don't care in which position the wheel is mounted (left or right, front or back).

    Regards, JEff
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    shipo,

    "I nearly tweaked my back when I pulled a 75 lb PAX assembly off of an Odyssey once (the standard ones weigh 50 lbs). But if you don't jack it up too high, they roll from corner to corner and it isn't so hard."

    Exactly! You don't need to jack the vehicle up so high as to lift the tire off the ground, you only need to jack it enough to get the vehicle's weight off the tire and center the lugs in the wheel's holes. Then the tire and wheel will practically fall away from the vehicle by itself and you just roll it away.

    Regards, JEff
Sign In or Register to comment.