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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Uhhh, is that a quote from me??? I don't remember typing that. :confuse:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    shipo,

    You're right. It was written by actualsize replying to you, I got the names backwards. I apologize for my confusion.

    Regards, JEff
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Okay, got it. ;)
  • dietrichdietrich Posts: 3
    3 days after selling our '05 touring, in need of its 2nd set of tires at 50k miles (yes, well maintained, rotated, etc.) got notification of class action lawsuit originated in California against Michelin and Honda. After many discussions with Honda customer no-service, trying to drill into their heads I don't want the tires warranted through them, only an alternative wheel solution had no option but to sell. In Denver only 4 places to get tires changed, takes 6-8 hours and a second mortgage, realized this is a short lived black eye on Honda that will be swept under rug as they phase it out. Hondas lack of customer support for their misguided venture has lost them a customer (was on our 4th Odyssey).
    '05 Odyssey also left my family stranded, out of cell range, on Berthoud Pass in winter due to fuel pump malfunction at 18k (slipping reliability as well?)
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Has the class action suit been revived? I thought it got thrown out of court.
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    The class action was kicked out of Federal Court in California, but was re-filed in California State Court. We received a notice from Honda's attorneys saying that they were going to "have to" release our private ownership information because the bad old trial lawyers were coming after Honda's happy PAX customer list...what a crock and talk about on the ethics edge....shame on Honda!!!!!! Hell yes I want in the suit!!!! After the guy at Honda told me to take a hike and would not return my calls. All I wanted was a free spare tire for my brand new $40K plus Odyssey complete with spare tire comparment, jack, and tire changing tools, but now I want a bit more because of the fraudulent suppression.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Your van already has a spare tire compartment and jack. Take a look just inside the liftgate to the left.
  • autowriteautowrite Posts: 226
    Canada does not supply PAX tires but only supplies 16".
  • fountanefountane Posts: 6
    Are these problems happen to Toyota Sienna run flat tires too? All their AWD model has run flat tires.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Toyota chose to use RFTs that fit on conventional rims. While it can be no picnic to find RFTs to fit the Sienna, they do mount up pretty much the same way as most other higher end tires, and pretty much any shop can do the work, just so long as they don't have an old tire machine.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    Completely different type of tire.

    Regards, JEff
  • fountanefountane Posts: 6
    Tks for your info. So I can go ahead to get ADW.

    Regards/Fountane
  • fountanefountane Posts: 6
    Did you mean Honda's PAX is completely different to Toyota's RFT?

    Regards/Fountane
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    The RFTs used on the Honda Odyssey vans is the now defunct PAX system, a system that is completely incompatible with every other tire system on the planet. Toyota has chosen to use conventional RFTs (the same as BMW and other non-Honda RFT applications), and these tires mount up to the same type of rim as do good old fashioned GFTs. Said another way, where the Honda/PAX system will typically cost you over $400 per tire for a replacement, the RFTs that Toyota uses will set you back about half of that. The good news here is that since Toyota uses wheels that can use GFTs, you can opt for the best set of tires that meet the needs of your personal driving environment.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Your assertion that PAX "typically cost" over $400 per tire is misleading. That some have been charged that (or more) is indisputable. However, there is great variation in pricing. The last quote I got was $995 at a Honda store for a set of 4 installed.
  • fountanefountane Posts: 6
    tks shipo.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    I'm sorry, I absolutely disagree with your statement that over $400 per tire is misleading, if anything, your quote for ~$224 is the one that is disingenuous. That you might have gotten a low ball quote doesn't in any way mean that the rest of the folks out there can duplicate the price you were quoted. I mean, come on, you've read the posts that have been put up on this board and you know very well that ~$400 per tire is very common, and pity the folks that need one or two due to a road hazard, often times they've reported nearly twice that.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    How using a real figure (not a "lowball quote" - I contacted three or four local stores and that was the lowest number, $1600 was the highest) to illustrate a point is "disingenuous" is beyond me. Didn't claim it was typical, just that it was an example that pricing does vary.

    And, no, don't recall anybody ever (much less "often times") posting anything close to your $800 number for a PAX tire, either here or on the Ody Club website.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "And, no, don't recall anybody ever (much less "often times") posting anything close to your $800 number for a PAX tire, either here or on the Ody Club website."

    I do, here's one example: http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef3f1cf/699
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    $600 is just as close to $400 as it is to $800.

    Additionally, the present relevance of market conditions 18 months ago is questionable at best.

    Just ask..most any homeowner.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    There are plenty of other examples, that just happened to be the first one that I found. I'll poke around a bit tomorrow and report back. Either way, some dealers really stick it to the person in need, others don't, and if you're on a trip, pick up a nasty nail and really need a single new tire, Murphy suggests that you're not going to get a good price on one, errr, that is if you can find one.

    Given that PAX has finally been certified as a bankrupt technology, that problem is only likely to get worse as Michelin gradually decreases the number of PAX tires they make. I look at it this way, one of our vans is ten years old, and I can buy a full set of tires for it for less than $500 out the door. How much is it going to cost an owner of a PAX Ody for a set of tires in ten years? I'm thinking a lot. :P
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    The RFTs that Toyota and most other car manufacturers use are essentially conventional tires with short, very stiff, sidewalls so that the sidewall can support the weight of the car when air pressure is lost.

    The Michelin PAX tires use a support ring mounted on the wheel inside the tire to support the weight of the car when air pressure is lost. And a unique rim-tire flange design to prevent the tires from coming off the rim.

    Regards, JEff
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    The last quote I got was $995 at a Honda store for a set of 4 installed.

    Did your quote include new rings and gel packs? If not, then pump up your quote an extra $90 or so per wheel. You won't find out you need the rings until the tires are already removed from the rims. Then, the dealer will probably have to special order the rings, but that should only set you back 2-3 days without your van. Hopefully, your dealer will lend you a nice Civic to tote your family around in while you wait for the rings. If not, then you'll have to rent yourself a family hauler and add in the cost...

    The market may have changed since I last did the research in November, but the lowest price I found within 100 miles of my home in VA was roughly $1200 for a set of four without new rings. Only two PAX dealers actually had the tires in stock and neither had the rings.

    Although I agree with the basic concept of the PAX system, the implementation of the program was horrible: insufficient supply, insufficient support network and much higher than advertised costs. When one throws in outright lying by most dealers regarding those issues, the program borders on criminal.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Don't know and really don't care as I posed the exact same question to all the dealers contacted. The three quotes I recall were $1600, $1300, and $995, each from a Central Ohio Honda store late last year.

    But your larger point is quite valid. The fact that one may or may not need expensive extra parts when buying tires is unbelieveable and will, no doubt, eventually play a key role in PAX litigation that will in the end cost Honda and Michelin plenty.
  • mleonardomleonardo Posts: 45
    While I have had problems getting Toyota to do the right thing with their failure to include a spare, I am happy that they used a conventional wheel and not anything like the PAX system talked about here. I got a free set of tires from toyota and I found a great place on Ebay where I picked up another stock wheel for a fraction of the price Toyota wanted for one. Now I have a spare for long trips and Toyota paid for a second set of tires. So I will get a little over 40,000 miles before I need to pay for tires out of my pocket. They finally made things right.
  • dpatel1dpatel1 Posts: 8
    Just posting my flat tire story for those interested in this tire system.

    Simple nail got stuck in my tire on a Friday night. Drove car home 5 miles, and started calling around on Sat. morning. Found an America's Tire Company that would be able to repair the tire for roughly $80 labor. Drove car 30 miles to this shop...

    Apparently driving 30 miles on the tire heated up the gel inside and dried it up. The tire was no longer repairable, and I needed a new one. Waited 2 days for new tire to be delivered. To Michelon's credit.. they covered the $199 for my tire after the tire dealer called them up and explained what happened, and I just had to pay the labor of $80.

    The whole system is just an inconvenience... I'm lucky to live in an area where it only cost me 2 days without my car. With this PAX system now an option in the 08 Honda Oddessy model, I don't think the situation will get any better for those looking for more michelon pax certified tire centers.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    "With this PAX system now an option in the 08 Honda Oddessy model, I don't think the situation will get any better for those looking for more michelon pax certified tire centers."

    Agreed, now that the PAX system is effectively a Lame Duck, I'd be suprised if any additional tire dealers or Acura/Honda dealerships invest in the necessary equipment to service them. I strongly suspect that as time goes on, and as more folks convert their vans to GFT style tires, finding services for PAX vans will become a bit sketchy.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    I didn't see anyone post this story about Michelin throwing-in the towel on PAX.

    Talk about lame duck ...

    NY Times, April 20, 2008

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    I loved the last line of the article that stated:

    Honda recommends that owners who have the PAX system not change to conventional wheels. Chris Martin, a Honda spokesman, said the Touring model’s suspension was tuned for the PAX tires and switching to conventional wheels “would compromise the ride and handling.”

    I find that especially funny as the owners that I've talked to that have made the switch have universally stated that the "ride and handling" improved once the heavy PAX wheel and tire assembly was replaced by a conventional setup weighing less than two-thirds of the weight.

    Hmmm, maybe by "compromise" they mean any deviation from OEM, good or bad.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    PAX Odys DO have a unique front stab bar (larger) and different front damper settings (well, the part number is different) but nothing is different in the back. It can't amount to much, and the bigger front stab bar, if anything, would increase understeer a bit--safer for the average driver.

    In reality, any time you change a tire away from the OE, PAX or not, run-flat or not--even if you retain the same size--you are messing up the balance a little because the tires are tuned along with the springs and shocks to work together as a system.

    But people make tire changes all the time--they almost never buy exact OE replacements, and many times they change wheels, too--without heed, and the world has not come to an end. They buy aftermarket shocks, off-brand replacement brake pads, a different exhaust. So what?

    This statement form Honda, therefore, while technically containing a granule of truth, is just a bit disingenuous. "Change" is more accurate than "compromise" and while I can see how the corporation might be unwilling to publicly endorse such a move, the difference can't amount to very much. Actually, I'd love to do a test myself.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    I'm fairly active on a number of BMW boards, and there are any number of owners who've swapped out their RFTs for GFTs (of the same size of course), and then reported before and after track times. In every case that I've read so far, a measurable reduction in lap times was the result. That and the cars became much more compliant for day-to-day driving in spite of the "Run-Flat tuned suspension".

    I've yet to talk to an Odyssey owner who tracked his or her van prior to a wheel and tire swap (not terribly surprising), so I cannot report on measured improvements. That said, they've all reported a much better ride and much more precise handling. Go figure. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    I'm not surprised. RFTs fitted to BMWs are the standard, stiff-sidewall variety. They have little compliance, they're slightly heavier, they're skittish (especially if the road has imperfections, i.e. a real road,) and all the suspension tuning in the world won't overcome the basic liability incurred by fitting cement-like tires. Damage control is all that run-flat tuned suspension is.

    Same is true of an Odyssey, but in a slightly different vein. Sure the PAX ring made it possible to retain softish-sidewalls, but the humungous unsprung mass of a PAX at each corner required more damping in the struts to keep them on the ground and forced the use of tie-rod ends with bulbous mass dampers on them. Damage control again, but for high unsprung mass instead of stiff tires.

    Run-flat tires of any kind impose engineering compromises that no ride engineer wants to make.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • rv65rv65 Posts: 1,076
    Collegehillshonda is working on a depax kit. Can be modular so you add what you want. The bad thing is that 05-06 models have a different type of lugnut while the 07-08 models have the traditional kind. The 07 and up lugnuts do retrofit a 2005-2006 model but it will take about 20 of them. Thats if you want an MDX wheel or an 08 non pax touring wheel.
  • gary_maggary_mag Posts: 5
    Can someone please send me the contact information to join this class action lawsuit?

    I am a Honda Odyssey 2005 owner and now needing to purchase a second set of PAX tires, with no options to purchase any other aftermarket tires -- this is ridiculous.

    Thanks,

    Gary
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Rumor has it that College Hills Honda has developed (or is developing) a PAX swap-out kit, complete with wheels, TPMS sensors and tires. You might want to give them a call.

    http://www.collegehillshonda.com/

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • dmayesdmayes Posts: 1
    I just swapped out my PAX system tires on my 2005 Honda Odyssey Touring for conventional tires and rims. I replaced them with 16" rims and Goodyear Assurance Comfortred tires, size 235/65R16". Ordered from TireRack.com, cost me $804.00 plus shipping, had them installed a couple of days ago for $115 at NTB. The TPMS system was transferred to the new rims and is working properly. I love the ride. The van drives much smoother. I did notice a slight difference in the feel of the steering. It's a smoother, maybe lighter feel, not to sure yet. Handling I think is better. I'll keep you posted, since its only been a couple of days. I am so happy I made the switch, I am no longer in bondage with Honda tires.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Congratulations on the successful "upgrade". ;) That said, I guess you didn't get the memo, Honda says that by doing what you did, you're van is going to suffer in both the ride and the handling deparment. Personally I don't believe a word of that. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • I also would like to get any information about being included in the law suit. And any information about the De-Pax Kit.

    Thanks,
    Barry
  • How has that worked out over the last month?

    Keeping the TPMS system active seems tricky?
  • rv65rv65 Posts: 1,076
    Click on my profile and email me for more info. This kit is expensive but does do the job nicely. There are tons of wheel designs that you can choose from. The ugly imo 05-06 EX/EX-L, 08 non PAX touring, and finally the MDX wheels just to name a few. Hope this helps.
  • bill517bill517 Posts: 6
    I swapped out my PAX tires with Goodyear tires and Honda wheels. However the Goodyear dealer was told that the TPMS senders would not fit on the rims. What type rims did you buy?

    I am pleased with the softer ride and better feel of the road.
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    You can pull the PAX units off the PAX rims or you have to buy new units from Honda. Honda uses different units for the Touring and EX models. Mine cost about $37 each from Honda. I left my PAX tires intact hoping the class action will settle and Honda will want them back in one piece.

    I swaped out my PAX wheels with a set of EX wheels. It drives just fine.
  • oldbob1oldbob1 Posts: 5
    I do not use computers alot and thus can not get to the item which listed the depax kit details.
    Thanks,
    Oldbob1
  • msarumsaru Posts: 1
    Can someone please send me the contact information to join this class action lawsuit?

    I am also a Honda Odyssey 2005 owner and now needing to purchase a second set of PAX tires, with no options to purchase, I have put in only 35k miles with the original tires.

    Thanks,
    Aru
  • msmith5msmith5 Posts: 1
    I also own a Honda Odyssey 2005 Touring and took the van yesterday to remove a nail in the right rear tire and get it fixed. I was shocked when a service technican said it could not be fixed and needed to be replaced with a new one at a cost of $400.00. We rarely go on a long trip so the tire thread depth was still good and I was expecting it was fixable because the puncture was not on the side of the tire. The service technician also said there are only 2 service centers in Vegas that have the capacity to replace the PAX tires. Now I'm worried driving through areas with construction sites and also knowing I will need to replace the other 3 tires in a couple of years. I'm also worried going on a long trip and getting a flat tire and not finding a shop that can replace a PAX tire within the 125 miles the maximum distance a PAX tire can run flat. Honda should pay to replace PAX the tires for Odyssey owners who want the tires converted.

    Michelin has also discontinued making the PAX tires after just a few years so I'm sure pretty soon the few shops which have the special equipment to service PAX tires will find it costly to maintain it together with a trained service crew.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/automobiles/20TIRES.html
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    While I agree with most of your post regarding the shortcomings of PAX tires, I think it's important to point out that Michelin is still making PAX tires (and will for some time), what they've done is to terminate all development of new PAX models.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Before you pay anyone to fix or replace your PAX tire, you must contact Michelin customer service first. Just google them for the number. You may be surprised when they agree to either replace the tire under warranty or cover a pro-rated share. Don't take "No" for an answer. If you push them, you will get something out of them.
  • Here is the Web Site if the Law Firm that has the class action law suit. I just contacted them and they are in the process of getting "class action" status in CA.

    Shepherd, Finkelman, Miller & Shah LLP

    http://sfmslaw.com
  • Just wanted to share with everyone since I saw it on this blog first. I just dumped my entire PAX system and put on "normal" after-market rims and tires. I went to Les Schwab Tires in San Carlos, CA.

    Ironically, it was CHEAPER to replace all 4 rims and tires than it was to buy just the new PAX tires (which would have been my 3rd set in 50k miles). And the Toyo tires I purchased are rated at 80k miles with regular rotation (about 4 sets of PAX tires based on my experience).

    They were able to even using the existing TirePressureSensor monitors and put them on my new rims. Everything is fully functional and working great.

    Overall the guys at Les Schwab were very knowledgable. They said they are "de-paxing" more and more Honda Odyssesys.

    What a relief to have the damn PAX system off my car. Now I can go on long road trips with peace of mind!

    GaryM
  • Can you tell me what rims and tires you used? I'm now needing my 3rd set of PAX tires with only 42,000 miles on my car. I will not buy another set. I'm done with PAX.

    The honda dealer I called recommended Honda EX-L 16" rims and quoted $2,100 for replacing the tires, rims, lug nuts, and adding a spare. Seems really high. So I think I'll try a local tire company with what you used.

    Also, was Les Schwab able to get a spare that fit in the wheel storage area in the back?
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